S01.E05: Golden Era

[Wings]

Rinder said that everyone, including big strong men who could knock him out with one punch, never dared to do so.  You would be dragged off by his goons to god knows where.  People disappear for less egregious "crimes."  Think gulag. 

[3girlsforus]

2 hours ago, lordonia said:

From what I've read, many people who "blow" return willingly once they're found. After all the shrewd planning and luck, they cave when confronted and allow themselves to be browbeaten into going back. One man was at the airport waiting for his flight. Jeez dude, it's a very public place. Make a scene and refuse to leave!

As to why some Sea Org members are heavily tracked and others aren't, who knows. It may be related to how high up they are? Leah, her sister, and mother used to be Sea Org members but left and became public members. She never gave details of that in her book that I recall. If they officially routed out they would have had to pay their freeloader's debt.

It's all madness.

I don't consider being browbeaten into going back to be a voluntary return.  These people are already terrified and alone. Scared of what will happen to them if they are caught. So when they are caught, it's that terror and insecurity that sends them back, not a desire to go back after all. As someone said above, psychologically this really is like domestic abuse. Many women go back to their husbands after they try to leave because he tracks them down and stalks or threatens them.  Same idea here. 

[Loves2Dance]

4 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I agree. That is one weird couple. How is it that they said one man escaped all the way to South Africa, he was found and brought back. How exactly are you brought back? And, yet these two were able to escape fairly easily and nobody "brought them back"?  This episode was the first time I have given the side eye to anybody's story. 

When you're brainwashed, it takes more than a few days to truly break free of that. You run and run and run, but all it takes is them getting to you when you're down, when the adrenaline runs out or you find you have nowhere to turn. It doesn't mean they physically picked them up and forced them back, it means they broke their will to leave and brought them back.

Also to the point about the abhorrent day cares they had; as we saw in Spanky's video, her desire to leave had to do with her daughters lack of care. Women change post-birth and the bond between mother/child is not so easily broken. That is just another reason to keep women from having children---they become less controllable. 

[Whimsy]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

let's talk John Travolta prancing around in his formal pilot uniform while flying his personal plane.  If I were in the military, I would be outraged by some of this stuff.  CO$ is making a mockery of the real military.

I'm a veteran and this bugs the shit out of me. That and calling even females "sir". This isn't the first time I've heard that, but not from being in the military. We called females "ma'am". 

[Cherry Cola]

1 hour ago, againstthewind said:

Guys, it may be the wine, and the fact that the CEO of my company got into my car today while I Want Your Sex was blasting via bluetooth, but I laughed my ass off at Leah's description of the Scino videos.

 

Please end 2016.

This cracked me up! That is hilarious and embarrassing....But you have a good story to tell! 

 

How about the guy in this episode, I forgot his name, he worked for 15 years, did over 500 all nighters and only made $ 25,000!!  What?! That is insane. That's a little over $ 1500.00 a year.  Seriously.  I hope people watch this, and stay the hell away from sea org or Scientology in general. 

Plus, I am sure Rinder is used to harassing people from his days in the cult, but it cracked me up how mellow he was, arms crossed behind his back, as he followed the PI that was following them. 

[B3cky50]

I want to know more about this "freeloader debt" everyone is so scared of having to pay.

How is it calculated? How on earth is it enforced? I can't imagine there's any legality to it. They aren't  sending people to collections to collect it....? Why would anyone actually pay it? 

I read Leah's book when it came out but can't remember if she ever had to or did pay it. 

[AZChristian]

People in the seaorg were apparently paid $50 per week.  They worked (often) over 100 hours per week, and all-nighters were not uncommon.  According to Ron Miscavage's book, the cooks who fed these folks had a budget of approximately $3 per adult PER DAY to feed them.  

Apparently the $50 wasn't always paid . . . until close to David Miscavage's birthday or Christmas, when they were paid and expected to "generously" donate for gifts for Miscavage.

Unbelievable.

[B3cky50]

7 minutes ago, B3cky50 said:

I want to know more about this "freeloader debt" everyone is so scared of having to pay.

How is it calculated? How on earth is it enforced? I can't imagine there's any legality to it. They aren't  sending people to collections to collect it....? Why would anyone actually pay it? 

I read Leah's book when it came out but can't remember if she ever had to or did pay it. 

I googled and answered some of my own questions by reading this Ex-Scientology message board. 

Apparently there's no legality outside of CO$ or credit report damage, although most ex-members pay just to be rid of the harassment. 

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?6939-Freeloader-Debt

[B3cky50]

20 hours ago, bilgistic said:

Explain to me what the forced abortions are about. I can understand the church not wanting the immediate problems of increased healthcare (costs) and another mouth to feed (not that they're hurting for money), but wouldn't that additional person, in their minds, eventually be another person in their ranks? I mean, they get them so young anyway, why not literally at birth?

From an ex-scientology board:

--------

This Flag Order is, I believe, one of the single most vicious policies the "church" has ever adopted. Not only did it denigrate and degrade the institution of marriage, it resulted in the neglect and abuse of hundreds of children, the outright abortion of hundreds more. Here’s a quote from that horribly-written issue:

"The Sea Org is not set up to handle or take care of children. Sea Org members getting [sic] children has resulted in an unpractical burden on the Sea Org units and inhibited their efficiency. No SO installation has the job of making SO members for twenty years from now." Flag Order 3905-1 CHILDREN, SEA ORG MEMBERS AND SEA ORG ORGS, 3 April 1991

[Jamoche]

6 hours ago, aurora296 said:

In a previous episode,  Little Davey Miscavige's father Ron talked about his last straw was when he looked at a Kindle that had internet access and read the truth about the Scientology's reputation and that is was all a scam. 

Made me wonder why any members who are not part of Sea Org who can come and go as they please can't easily find out for themselves that it's all bullcrap. They must know or hear all the negativity associated with the church since they are able to roam freely in public. 

When the Internet first hit them, it was Net Nanny software and heavy insistence that everything the critics said was lies, part of a conspiracy against them because we were jealous that they had the Truth and we didn't.

[sigmaforce86]

1 hour ago, Sgt Pepper said:

Plus, I am sure Rinder is used to harassing people from his days in the cult, but it cracked me up how mellow he was, arms crossed behind his back, as he followed the PI that was following them. 

I saw that too - then I realized he was being smart, by keeping his hands there (which was also in full view of the camera) and walking slowly and deliberately it left the PI's no room to claim later that he was being aggressive or  that he laid hands on them in any way. 

I wondered why the Sea Org members thought they have to pay that debt or could be held to the billion year contract they signed at 14, 15, 16 years old - it's likely unenforceable for even for an adult but  it can't be a legit debt for a minor who can't enter into a contract like that anyway.  Then I realized they don't know this at all; the church tells them what's "legal" so they'd have no idea of what they can really be held to.

[trow125]

5 hours ago, Showthyme said:

What happens with people when they turn 65 and haven't paid anything in to the Social Security system? What does Scientology do with seniors?

A story about what can happen to elderly Sea Org members was covered in the Underground Bunker just a couple of weeks ago. Warning: it's extremely disturbing, even by Scientology standards.

[Diane Mars]

5 hours ago, trow125 said:

A story about what can happen to elderly Sea Org members was covered in the Underground Bunker just a couple of weeks ago. Warning: it's extremely disturbing, even by Scientology standards.

Read it..... Yup, that's disgusting... And the last sentence of the KR from Sherri Rabey.... "This is true"... Nauseating.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Diane Mars

[Lizzing]

17 hours ago, aurora296 said:

Made me wonder why any members who are not part of Sea Org who can come and go as they please can't easily find out for themselves that it's all bullcrap. They must know or hear all the negativity associated with the church since they are able to roam freely in public. 

I was wondering about this too.  There are all the celebs, like Leah, who weren't in Sea Org and could have done internet searches years before they got out (for the ones that have left) and can do them now.  I find it fascinating that people can be that gullible to just believe all negative CO$ press is a pack of lies, along the same way I find it fascinating that people believe so much of the fake news stories that circulate on social media.  Scary, most definitely, but intriguing.  But I'm the asshole who would "reply all" with links to Snopes to friends who emailed crazy stories in twenty years ago, so perhaps I'm just naturally skeptical.  Plus, I think CO$ leadership fosters a ridiculously high rate of paranoia in their flock, from the narcing on others, to the group confrontations of people who leave (like with Paul Haggis), to the known recording and monitoring of auditing, that it just becomes easy to believe that all outside media is just one big coordinated ball of attempts to take down the "church".

I did have to laugh about Marc's escape on a motorcycle; it sounded like the plot of a Tom Cruise movie, given his action movie creds and affinity for motorcycles.  Not that Cruise would ever make that movie, but a desert escape on a motorcycle sounds very actiony/cinematic.  Too bad Steve McQueen is dead. ;)

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

Mimi Faust Scientology Freeloader

This is an account by a woman who was told by her mother to join the Sea Org at 13 or she had to disconnect. It also answers a bit about the schooling questions.

I was really shocked to find that out about Mimi's mother.  I have watched Love and Hip Hop: Atlanta and Mimi does seem pretty mature, even though she has real bad taste in men.

[fastiller]

From the linked Voice article about Mimi Faust (a person I only heard of just now, via p.tv):

Quote

"Life was completely turned upside down," Mimi says. "We lived in a room with bunk beds. We went to the cafeteria for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And my mom was working all the time. I only got to see her during what they called 'Family Time,' from five to seven pm. Just two hours a day.

It's funny - in France 5p to 7p is 'mistress time' for those men who have them.  At least it was, not sure if it still is a thing.

[kassa]

Leah definitely narced on her husband multiple times and talks about it freely -- it's part of the culture. They convince you you're doing it to HELP the other person, so of course you do it.  I didn't see it as a sign of an issue between Marc and Claire, any more than former junkies talking about stealing each others' drugs.  Just a recollection of the crazy way of life that used to seem normal. 

Jenna Miscavige talks about growing up in a Sea Org camp.  At 6 years old she was the Medical Officer.  Think about that. A 6 year old was responsible for the medical care of hundreds of children.  She had a reference binder to consult which told her which drugs/treatments to give depending on the complaint.  As an adult, she's properly horrified and glad nobody broke a leg or developed a septic wound while she was there.  

Children at the camp were pretty much in charge of themselves, with minimal adult supervision.  They did heavy manual labor for hours -- digging ditches, clearing brush, wiring electricity into buildings, etc.  Occasionally, outside contractors would be brought in for serious, heavy duty work, and they would report to police things they saw kids doing that were dangerous.  That's the sort of thing that probably made DM want to phase out children in the organization -- too much downtime when you had to hide them from regular people who believe in child labor laws.  

[fastiller]

From the recap:

Quote

 

One of the things I appreciate the most about the way this season is structured is how methodically it has explained the ways the church perpetuates its power. It's not with the overwhelming numbers of parishioners pushing back against outside critics: as we learn this week, the church's claims of growth are extremely suspect and based more on the ever-growing square footage of church property than on the number of its human followers. Instead, it's with spokespeople like Mike Rinder who will go on camera and lie to journalists. It's by literally sending members who are wavering in their faith out to see -- as it did with Mary Kahn -- to break them down psychologically and make them doubt reality itself. And as we see this week, a key component of silencing people, like Remini, who are trying to expose the truth about the church is to hire private investigators to keep tabs on them.

In this episode, as soon as Remini and Rinder get off the plane in Denver on their way to see former Sea Org executives Marc and Claire Headley, they know "their journey has been noticed" because there's a guy tailing them -- and not being very subtle about it. As Remini sees his car nosing out of a parking lot so that he can start following them, she suggests to Rinder, who's driving, that he motion the guy to go ahead of them; when the guy refuses to be waved on, Rinder pulls up beside him and asks whom he's working for, hearing "TMZ." (Remini: "Piece of shit.") As she notes, when TMZ follows you, it's because they want a photo or video footage of whatever you're doing; this guy doesn't even have a camera.

 

I really want to see a reputable source on how much property they own in Clearwater.  I work with someone from not far from there and he contends they don't own much, but a fairly pro-Co$ site says they're the highest property tax paying entity in the city.

On the second bolded section, I really laughed a lot at the "no, you go ahead" / "no you go ahead" thing that LR had going on.  I thought it could've gone on for several more minutes if all parties wanted it to.

[cpcathy]

I think King of Queens is a funny, underrated show, but I'm starting to love Leah even more now. I could watch several seasons of this show. I'm just aghast at the scope of the insanity.

[serenitynow]

55 minutes ago, fastiller said:

From the recap:

I really want to see a reputable source on how much property they own in Clearwater.  I work with someone from not far from there and he contends they don't own much, but a fairly pro-Co$ site says they're the highest property tax paying entity in the city.

On the second bolded section, I really laughed a lot at the "no, you go ahead" / "no you go ahead" thing that LR had going on.  I thought it could've gone on for several more minutes if all parties wanted it to.

In Illinois, religious organizations (and charitable and schools, etc.) can file for exemptions from property tax.  If Florida has similar laws, it's possible they aren't paying any property tax on buildings and properties that they own.

[DrSparkles]

I talk out loud to myself during many parts of these episodes, but when they got to: this "freeloader debt" -- I said "oh you can kiss the whitest part of my behind if you think you're getting that money from me." I've never given them any money of course.

[MaggieG]

21 hours ago, deaja said:

Stop it. You're being glib.

You don't know the history of psychiatry, I do!

20 hours ago, savannah1985 said:

One of the former scientologists named Tom Devogt (or something like that) said when he got beat up he knew he couldn't fight back because there was almost always someone else around and he feared people would come to Miscaviges' rescue and he (Tom) would get beat up even worse.  Everybody, all the men who got beat up, knew that if they fought back, they would be attacked and then definitely sent to the Hole.  I read that Shelley Miscavige always had a small first aid kit with her in case it was needed.  Be prepared!

I think it was also Tom in a previous episode that recalled that he was telling the story to a former Marine. The Marine said something like "I would have knocked him out" and Tom said "what if he was an Admiral" which kind of made the Marine stop and think. It's crazy but true. DM is pretty much the Admiral and the Pope and they fear him.

I laughed at the exchange they had with the "TMZ" guy. No, you go ahead, no you go ahead.

[juliet73]

1 hour ago, fastiller said:

I really want to see a reputable source on how much property they own in Clearwater.  I work with someone from not far from there and he contends they don't own much, but a fairly pro-Co$ site says they're the highest property tax paying entity in the city.

 

I went to Pinellas County FL tax assessor website and the property taxes for the Flag Service Organization (210 S Ft Harrison Ave, Clearwater) was listed as:  PAID 2016-11-16  $205,311.22 annually.  Another Flag Service building is listed as well (118 N. Harrison Ave) and it shows $0.00 taxes.  Another building is located at 503 Cleveland St was listed as: PAID 2016-11-16  $1,111.24.  Another building is listed as Church of Scientology (1057 Cephas Rd Clearwater), but according to the tax records, the business name is CSA Power Solutions.  It is listed as:  PAID 2016-12-14  $790.79. Another property is listed as a CO$ Mission (100 N. Belcher), but the property records list the owners at private indiviuals:  $8039.86 is due.  

Edited December 29, 2016 by juliet73

[Rlb8031]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I was really shocked to find that out about Mimi's mother.  I have watched Love and Hip Hop: Atlanta and Mimi does seem pretty mature, even though she has real bad taste in men.

But it explains why she is the way she is. When you haven't really had substantial relationships with anyone as a child, you probably have a hard time discerning what love is or is not. Her mom told her she loved her as a way to lure her into a room with four people trying to get her to sign her life away to Scientology. Imagine if that was the only time you could recall hearing your mom say that how you might approach men. 

[fastiller]

@serenitynow & @juliet73 - thanks for the info.  I probably wasn't clear (no pun intended): I have heard conflicting information on how much property they own in Clearwater.  From some places it's "they own the entire city" from some places it's "oh, it's not that much".  I know that the tax roles can be deceptive, so I'd really like to know how much they really do own in Clearwater.  (And other towns for that matter.)

[juliet73]

27 minutes ago, fastiller said:

@serenitynow & @juliet73 - thanks for the info.  I probably wasn't clear (no pun intended): I have heard conflicting information on how much property they own in Clearwater.  From some places it's "they own the entire city" from some places it's "oh, it's not that much".  I know that the tax roles can be deceptive, so I'd really like to know how much they really do own in Clearwater.  (And other towns for that matter.)

Ask and you shall receive....  :)  

Anchorage Alaska
1300 E 68th Ave

California
Church of Scientology of Santa Cruz
LA Celebrity Center
Bridge Publications Inc
WISE
Youth For Human Rights
Hubbard College
Social Betterment Properties International
RTC Religious Technology Center
SMI Scientology Missions International
CSI Church of Scientology International
Narconon
Building Management Services
Carroll Rees Academy and Art
Church of Scientology Mountain View
Church Of Scientology Los Gatos
Church of Scientology of South San Jose
Church of Scientology of Steven's Creek
Church of Scientology Orange County
Church of Scientology San Francisco

Aptos 345 Flume Rd.
Los Angeles 5930 Franklin Av.
Los Angeles 4751 Fountain Av.
Los Angeles 6331 Hollywood Blvd.
Los Angeles 1954 Hillhurst Ave.
Los Angeles 320 North Vermont Ave
Los Angeles 6331 Hollywood Blvd.
Los Angeles 6331 Hollywood Blvd.
Los Angeles 6331 Hollywood Blvd.
Los Angeles 6331 Hollywood Blvd.
Los Angeles 6161 Santa Monica Blvd.
Los Angeles 6331 Hollywood Blvd.
Los Angeles 3031 Angus Street
Mountain View 117 Easy St.
San Jose 650 Saratoga Ave.
San Jose 826 N. Winchester Blvd. 1
San Jose 1865 Lundy Ave.
Tustin 1451 Irvine Blvd.
San Francisco 701 Montgomery St

Hubbard College
320 North Vermont Ave Los Angeles Ca
Ventura Mission
3295 E TELEGRAPH ROAD 
Ventura Ca

COLORADO
Church of Scientology of Colorado
3385 S Bannock Street
Englewood, CO 80110

Connecticut
949 Whalley Ave

Washington DC
Founding Church of Scientology (Frazer Mansion)- 
VACANT
Church of Scientology
L Ron Hubbard Museum/Library

Wash. DC 1701 20th Street
Washington DC, 1424 16th Street
Washington DC 1812 19TH ST NW

Florida
Church Of Scientology Flag SVC Org Inc.
Church of Scientology Religious Trust
Church of Scientology Mission of Clearwater Inc.
Church of Scientology Flagship Service Org Inc. 
Freewinds Relay Office
Chirch of Scientology Mission of Belleair
Church of Scientology Book Store Mission Belleair
Ybor Square Building Complex
Church of Scientology of Tampa, Inc.
Church of Scientology Flag SCV Org Inc.; Church of 
Scientology Flag Service Org Inc;
Hubbard Dianetics (they have it spelled Dienetics)
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY MISSION OF OCALA INC 
Ebony Awakening 

503 CLEVELAND ST
109 N FT HARRISON AVE
319 S GARDEN AVE
645 FRANKLIN ST
41 N. Ft. Harrison Ave.
100 Belcher Rd. N
503 Cleveland St.
2907 W. Bay Dr. Ste 101
2985 W. Bay Dr.
1901 N. 13th St.
3102 N. Habana Ave.
500 Cleveland St.
3102 N Habana Ave.
50 SE 1ST AVE

1500 San Roy Drive Dunedin, FL 34698 

Georgia
5395 Roswell Rd.Sandy Springs


Idaho
7750 Crestwood Drive, Ste 3 Boise

INDIANA
Church of Scientology
6451 Rockville Rd
Indianapolis, Indiana


Louisianna
102 Huggins Rd
Lafayette

3524 Canal St. New Orleans

Criminon or Maine
204 Beath Rd Boothbay

MARYLAND
Church of Scientology Mission of Baltimore
4551 COLLEGE AVE
Ellicot City, MD

Mass
Beacon Street, Boston

Michigan
43 Poplar St.
Battle Creek

31 N. Washington St.
Battle Creek

1 Griswold Ave.
Detroit, MI 48226

Mississippi
289 Gulfwater Drive
Biloxi

MISSOURI
Church Of Scientology Of Missouri 
6901 Delmar Blvd 
Saint Louis, MO 63130 

Church Of Scientology Kansas City
2 E 39TH ST, 
KANSAS CITY, MO 64111-2288

NEBRASKA
Church Of Scientology 
843 Hidden Hills Dr 
Bellevue Nebraska


NEVADA
CHURCH SCIENTOLOGY NV INC
846 E SAHARA AVE
LAS VEGAS NV 89104-3017

Church of Scientology Creative Mission of Las Vegas
4850 W. Flamingo Rd Suite 10
Las Vegas, NV 89103

NY
Church of Scientology
28 WEST 74 STREET 

Church Of Scientlogy
64 Bethpage Rd
Hicksville, NY 11801 

Ohio
1266 Dublin Road, Columbus

PA
1315 Race Street

TENN
Celebrity Center

1112 8th Ave S
1114 8th Ave S 
1130 8TH AV S 

TEXAS
Church Of Scientology Texas
2200 Guadalupe Street Ste 2
Austin Tx 78705-5223
Status- non exempt. 2009 Net Taxable Value - $108,977.00
Account # 02120105070000


Church Of Scientology Texas
2200 Guadalupe Street Ste 2
Austin Tx 78705-5223
site address - 2110 NUECES ST
Status non exempt- 2009 Net Taxable Value- $50,556.00
Act # 02120110010000 

Church Of Scientology Texas
2200 Guadalupe Street Ste 2
Austin Tx 78705-5223

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY
CELEBRITY CTR DALLAS
451 DECKER DR
IRVING, TEXAS 750623954 

UTAH
Church of Scientology Mission of Salt Lake City
1931 South 1100 East Street
Salt Lake City, Utah

Washington
Church of Scientology of Washington State
Church of Scientology - Mission of Seattle
Church of Scientology of the Eastside 
Church of Scientology Mission 
APPLIED SCHOLASTICS INTERNATIONAL

601 Aurora Avenue N. Seattle
300 W. Harrison Seattle 
7901 168th Avenue Northeast #200 Redmond

Applied Scholastics -1603 W 14TH AVE- Spokane

 

Here is the link from whyweprotest.net     https://whyweprotest.net/threads/scientologys-us-tax-exempt-properties.63297/page-5

[Rlb8031]

This list may be a bit out of date. They just opened a new center in NYC in Harlem http://patch.com/new-york/harlem/photos-see-inside-harlem-s-new-scientology-church-community-center

[fastiller]

Holy crow @juliet73!  That's some list.  And many thanks.

[AZChristian]

I believe there's also a center in Phoenix that isn't listed.

[DangerousMinds]

On 12/28/2016 at 10:00 AM, LAFR said:

I thought the private investigators in the hotel lobby were actual Scientologists and not just hired out of the phone book. That's why they would 1) have no problem intimidating and 2) be sucky at their jobs. TMZ could sue for slander.

With regards to the forced abortions - I am amazed that the U.S. Congress doesn't go after them for this. There are hearings and reports that raise the issue of forced abortions in China and there are Members of Congress that frequently attack China on this one issue alone. I am amazed they aren't up in arms about ones happening in this country. Limiting access to birth control and then forcing those who get pregnant to have an abortion is disgusting and sick.

Sounds a  lot like the US military to me, actually. Limiting women's health care resources in every way.

On 12/28/2016 at 10:12 AM, Empress1 said:

 

A 15-year-old executive sounds crazy. A billion-year contract sounds crazy. This shit is crazy. I found it very powerful when Mark said that he told people who thought they could "save" Scientology, "It's not worth saving. Walk away."

 

If you look closely, aren't ALL religions a bit crazy? At least they are to me.

[Rlb8031]

19 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

If you look closely, aren't ALL religions a bit crazy? At least they are to me.

Yeah, but I think the difference is most mainstream religions have room for the vague adherent and the fallen. You don't get excommunicated in the Catholic faith for not showing up, and these days, you don't even suffer that fate for not believing in every single tenant of the faith. This is more like a gang than a religion, and the absolute nature of adherence (either your a believer or an SP) reminds me of the blood in/blood out nature of street gangs.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Sea Org doesn't want children because they would not get the same work and level of commitment from the parents. They already have control over the mothers and fathers so they don't need to have them produce a bunch of kids like FLDS. And, the kids already do slave labor in Scientology like they do in FLDS. Kids do not benefit Scientology.

That still seems counter-intuitive to me. They have plenty of money to set up daycare centers and hire daycare workers so that the parents can continue to work full time. The church isn't recruiting new members in any appreciable way - especially now with all the bad publicity. It seems like their best option to grow or at least maintain their members is by breeding them in-house. Otherwise their whole following is basically going to die out, and they have to know that.

[Chaos Theory]

4 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

That still seems counter-intuitive to me. They have plenty of money to set up daycare centers and hire daycare workers so that the parents can continue to work full time. The church isn't recruiting new members in any appreciable way - especially now with all the bad publicity. It seems like their best option to grow or at least maintain their members is by breeding them in-house. Otherwise their whole following is basically going to die out, and they have to know that.

Plus there is the whole rat out your parents that these types of "institutions" trade in.  There is an entire currency of losing you kid to brainwashing so not leaving for that reason alone.   I would think the higher ups would want to control the number of kids born into Scientology so "surprise" pregnancies would be a no no.    

Like everything else you need to ask permission and sign the unborn/unconceived child's life away before you even think about trying.

[juliet73]

3 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

That still seems counter-intuitive to me. They have plenty of money to set up daycare centers and hire daycare workers so that the parents can continue to work full time. The church isn't recruiting new members in any appreciable way - especially now with all the bad publicity. It seems like their best option to grow or at least maintain their members is by breeding them in-house. Otherwise their whole following is basically going to die out, and they have to know that.

I understand what you're saying because it's logical.  You need to look at it from David Miscavige's mentality and selfishness.  Why would he (the Co$) spend the money towards daycare centers and workers?  He would rather line his pockets while he can.  Scientology isn't going to be around forever because he is running it and it's members into the ground, literally.  Whether he's doing it on purpose or because he's a bad leader (or probably both), it doesn't matter to him.  He's not going to be alive when the "church" comes crashing down so he doesn't care what happens to the future generations. 

[itsadryheat]

2 hours ago, juliet73 said:

UTAH
Church of Scientology Mission of Salt Lake City
1931 South 1100 East Street
Salt Lake City, Utah

Here is the link from whyweprotest.net     https://whyweprotest.net/threads/scientologys-us-tax-exempt-properties.63297/page-5

 

Surprised the Mormons would let them in.

They don't like "others" even if, to the outside world, they seem like they are the same.

[Carolina Girl]

On 12/28/2016 at 7:25 AM, eskimo said:

The US government did go there to investigate the claims that people could not leave of their own free will.  Jim Jones put on a show of how great everything was there and that people could leave if they wanted to.  When some people decided to leave with the congressman, gunmen from the People's Temple met them at the airstrip and murdered a bunch of them, including Congressman Ryan.  At the very same time, he was mixing the Kool-aid back at the camp.  Jim Jones knew that when these people got back to the US the truth would get out and he was about to lose control.  So they did investigate, but it was far too late.  CO$ needs to be stopped before it gets to that point.  I could see DM talking many people into 'shedding their earthly bodies' before he loses his power.  He's that crazy and power hungry.   

Thank you.  I thought I was the only one who thought - Damn if Miscavige wouldn't announce that LRH had issued his pronouncement from OT Level XX that it was time to "shed the body" and everyone in the Sea Org pulls a dutch act a la Heaven's Gate a few years ago.  

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if prior to the "big announcement: the COBullshit stashed away millions, fled the country and lived his life out on a Scientology-owned island somewhere.  

[rose711]

I am enjoying this show immensely.

[rose711]

  On 12/28/2016 at 10:00 AM, LAFR said:

I thought the private investigators in the hotel lobby were actual Scientologists and not just hired out of the phone book. That's why they would 1) have no problem intimidating and 2) be sucky at their jobs. TMZ could sue for slander.

With regards to the forced abortions - I am amazed that the U.S. Congress doesn't go after them for this. There are hearings and reports that raise the issue of forced abortions in China and there are Members of Congress that frequently attack China on this one issue alone. I am amazed they aren't up in arms about ones happening in this country. Limiting access to birth control and then forcing those who get pregnant to have an abortion is disgusting and sick.

Sounds a  lot like the US military to me, actually. Limiting women's health care resources in every way.

  On 12/28/2016 at 10:12 AM, Empress1 said:

 

A 15-year-old executive sounds crazy. A billion-year contract sounds crazy. This shit is crazy. I found it very powerful when Mark said that he told people who thought they could "save" Scientology, "It's not worth saving. Walk away."

 

If you look closely, aren't ALL religions a bit crazy? At least they are to me.

Which religions keep members prisoners, and force them to leave their family behind?

I think you are making a dangerous comparison. This is a cult designed to brainwash and mind control people for the purpose of making boatloads of money and for power.

[Empress1]

14 minutes ago, rose711 said:

Which religions keep members prisoners, and force them to leave their family behind?

I think you are making a dangerous comparison. This is a cult designed to brainwash and mind control people for the purpose of making boatloads of money and for power.

For some reason you attributed that quote to me there, and I just want to say that I didn't make that comparison - DangerousMinds did.

[RedheadZombie]

20 hours ago, B3cky50 said:

I want to know more about this "freeloader debt" everyone is so scared of having to pay.

How is it calculated? How on earth is it enforced? I can't imagine there's any legality to it. They aren't  sending people to collections to collect it....? Why would anyone actually pay it? 

I read Leah's book when it came out but can't remember if she ever had to or did pay it. 

Tom De Vocht, who was on a few episodes ago, received a $98,000 freeloader bill after he scaled the spike/barbed wire fence.  Two interesting things of note:  Like Headley, he had decided that if Miscavige attacked him again, he would fight back.  Secondly, Tom spoke those words to his wife, Miscavige's aide, and he was declared an SP.  So the inference is that his wife ratted him out.

I think they save the Freeloader Bill for Sea Org, because their training is "free" (if you don't count slave wages, and billion year servitude).  Other members pay for their training up front.  So Leah had handed over $250,000 or so to get to where she was.

Has Leah covered her own reaction to Xenu?  I want her to speak on receiving that super-secret briefcase that tells the story of evil Xenu and the volcano.  And I want her to tell it as she told her hilarious version of the propaganda films.  I would like to hear Rinder's genuine response as well.  And how they both rationalized that particular insanity.  I know Paul Haggis said he simply rolled his eyes and laughed off how nutty it was, because he felt he had gotten so much out of the "religion" otherwise.

Paul Haggis also said his two gay children had been treated poorly d/t their sexuality, and they didn't tell him until after he left.  So CO$ is definitely a homophobic cult, which they try to keep on the down low.  It makes me wonder if JT would be happily married to man without this cult, instead of randomly sexually assaulting male masseuses.

[toodles]

22 hours ago, Showthyme said:

 

It is outrageous that a church can mandate an abortion just as it is equally outrageous that they can tell you not to get one. Where are the abortion advocates?

 

You said it better than I did.

[Scovies]

50 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Has Leah covered her own reaction to Xenu?  I want her to speak on receiving that super-secret briefcase that tells the story of evil Xenu and the volcano.  And I want her to tell it as she told her hilarious version of the propaganda films.  I would like to hear Rinder's genuine response as well.  And how they both rationalized that particular insanity.  I know Paul Haggis said he simply rolled his eyes and laughed off how nutty it was, because he felt he had gotten so much out of the "religion" otherwise.

She mentions it here in her Reddit AMA. Her answer was short, but I wonder just how common her reaction was:

Quote

Yes my first reaction was "Are you all fucking nuts?" and then I looked at my mother and said "What kind of bullshit did you get me in?" My only option was to leave, but at the time my family was not ready to go. The "church" told me I didn't need to believe it, just do it. And they always pose this question: "Are you ready to leave everything you've ever known?"

[rose711]

This is a thing with scammers. They hit people with outrageous lies because they know if you will believe that, you can be manipulated.
It's the same principle behind the scammers and send out those Nigerian prince needing money emails. They know the whole story is ridiculously stupid but the only people that will believe it are the incredibly gullible ones. And those of the people they want ias their victims.

[spaceghostess]

1 hour ago, Rlb8031 said:

This list may be a bit out of date. They just opened a new center in NYC in Harlem http://patch.com/new-york/harlem/photos-see-inside-harlem-s-new-scientology-church-community-center

Oh, FFS. As a native New Yorker, that article (which the writer ended with "come down and see the center for yourself" made me livid enough that I posted the following comment:

Please don't encourage people to "see the place for [themselves]" Unless, of course, you want to be a party to this cult's heinous, malignant practices. They build their disgusting "churches" on the backs of their unfortunate followers' grinding--mostly unpaid--labor and by bleeding said followers of everything, most notably their money and self respect. The cult of Scientology destroys individuals and families in the name of "community outreach" and "self improvement". Appalling.

I can't even with these bastards. I now live about an hour north of New Haven and decided to see what the deal was with their second property on Whalley Ave. there. I was excited to read a New Haven Register article from 2011 that said it had lost tax exempt status and the church was in a legal wrangle with the city. Unfortunately, according to an entry in Mike Rinder's blog, as of 2013, they'd straightened out their problems with the property, so they were clear (so to speak) to move ahead with developing it. Don't know what's happened with it since then, though.

[Kostgard]

20 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I saw that too - then I realized he was being smart, by keeping his hands there (which was also in full view of the camera) and walking slowly and deliberately it left the PI's no room to claim later that he was being aggressive or  that he laid hands on them in any way. 

I wondered why the Sea Org members thought they have to pay that debt or could be held to the billion year contract they signed at 14, 15, 16 years old - it's likely unenforceable for even for an adult but  it can't be a legit debt for a minor who can't enter into a contract like that anyway.  Then I realized they don't know this at all; the church tells them what's "legal" so they'd have no idea of what they can really be held to.

Yep. I've seen videos where the Scientology harassers keep picking and picking at their "mark" until the mark reaches the end of their rope and end up screaming at them or shoving them away (or taking a swing at them). The harassers then promptly call the police and report that they've been assaulted. They then gleefully film the mark getting questioned and/or handcuffed by the police, and use the video as proof of how awful that person is.

Rinder knows their game (he used to play it too), so he knows which precautions to take. Even when he was filming the PI making off with his garbage, he was sure to keep his tone of voice fairly light.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Kostgard

[bethster2000]

4 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I believe there's also a center in Phoenix that isn't listed.

3875 N 44th St, Phoenix, AZ 85018

ETA: I was surprised to see that Cincinnati did not have a major branch.  My uncle lived as a $cientologist in that general area until he committed suicide.

Edited December 30, 2016 by bethster2000

[howiveaddict]

On 12/28/2016 at 2:59 PM, wings707 said:

have to watch again, I totally missed that.  I watched this morning while reading/posting here.  I used to be able to do that!  It amazed my family.  I guess I can no longer claim this genius skill.  Lol.  Damn.

Me too.  It sucks to get old.  

[Almost 3000]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Paul Haggis also said his two gay children had been treated poorly d/t their sexuality, and they didn't tell him until after he left.  So CO$ is definitely a homophobic cult, which they try to keep on the down low.  It makes me wonder if JT would be happily married to man without this cult, instead of randomly sexually assaulting male masseuses.

You'd think CO$ would embrace gay relationships because then there would be no need for abortions. So practical and cost efficient.

[3girlsforus]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

 

Paul Haggis also said his two gay children had been treated poorly d/t their sexuality, and they didn't tell him until after he left.  So CO$ is definitely a homophobic cult, which they try to keep on the down low.  It makes me wonder if JT would be happily married to man without this cult, instead of randomly sexually assaulting male masseuses.

I am not up on celebrity rumor and gossip. I'm assuming JT is Travolta. Is there a thought that he's gay? 

[fastiller]

14 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

I am not up on celebrity rumor and gossip. I'm assuming JT is Travolta. Is there a thought that he's gay? 

Male Masseuse Claims He Gave ‘Happy Ending’ To John Travolta & Another Major Star