Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[momma2seven]

Wanted to very cautiously make a suggestion (because I don't want to start a Pickles conspiracy) It is possible Joy and Austin have known for some time that there was an issue with the pregnancy/baby and that it was unlikely she would be born alive. Maybe they have had more time to process and plan for this than we realize. IF a certain conspiracy is correct that there were indications of a problem in the 10 week ultrasound, they may have already gone through the most raw part of the grieving process while also hoping for a miracle. The plans for Carlin to come, the photo shoot, how the announcement would be made on SM may have been carefully thought out and planned over the course of the last month or two rather than in whatever amount of time they had between "no heartbeat" and delivery. I don't think it would be out of character for them to have continued on through the pregnancy, for how ever long it lasted, celebrating it and their baby...because #1 it was still their child regardless of the outcome and #2  they do believe miracles can happen.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, momma2seven said:

Wanted to very cautiously make a suggestion (because I don't want to start a Pickles conspiracy) It is possible Joy and Austin have known for some time that there was an issue with the pregnancy/baby and that it was unlikely she would be born alive. Maybe they have had more time to process and plan for this than we realize. IF a certain conspiracy is correct that there were indications of a problem in the 10 week ultrasound, they may have already gone through the most raw part of the grieving process while also hoping for a miracle. The plans for Carlin to come, the photo shoot, how the announcement would be made on SM may have been carefully thought out and planned over the course of the last month or two rather than in whatever amount of time they had between "no heartbeat" and delivery. I don't think it would be out of character for them to have continued on through the pregnancy, for how ever long it lasted, celebrating it and their baby...because #1 it was still their child regardless of the outcome and #2  they do believe miracles can happen.

I suppose I could see that happening, but the pictures of Joy and Austin up until this point have just been glowing--they just don't look like people who have been hit with bad news. Really, it's the best pics I've ever seen of them together. They look happy and comfortable--Austin's smile even reaches his eyes!

Likewise, the pictures from the hospital, to me, looked like people who had just been completely taken by surprise, especially Austin. Someone above mentioned how very raw his emotions looked. I agree. I really think they were completely blindsided by this. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

11 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

... Anyway, I've added these events to my own personal privacy hangups, so I always see that as a too-real possibility when somebody shares very intimate stuff with a bunch of people that they don't know at all!

... (And I put maybe too much faith in my own gut reactions -- and I just feel like I had absolutely no right and no business and no reason seeing Joy's and Austin's pictures....So I go with that!) 

I think the privacy ship sailed long ago with the Duggars.

I understand that gut feeling. While I didn't get the feeling I had no business seeing Joy's posts, I did feel that way when Jinger and Jeremy were filmed in their hotel room the morning after their wedding.

[Churchhoney]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think the privacy ship sailed long ago with the Duggars.

I understand that gut feeling. While I didn't get the feeling I had no business seeing Joy's posts, I did feel that way when Jinger and Jeremy were filmed in their hotel room the morning after their wedding.

Yep. Me, too. I didn't actually see it, but reading about it, I definitely thought -- Really glad I didn't see that. 

Totally agree about the privacy ship. Still, hope springs eternal that any ship can always return to the dock! 

I didn't get the feeling about all of the Joy and Austin posts. Just the two photos that were simply Joy and Austin together. ... The others -- like the one with the baby -- didn't make me feel like an intruder. That one felt okay for me to see. Because that was the full intention behind it, I felt. 

But the two with the couple alone in their grief .... Those just made me feel like a sick voyeur. I think because they depict their life and their emotions as they're happening. And they're clearly not emotions they'd share with strangers if we all showed up at the room they're happening in, seems to me. 

I figure that's the kind of thing I should read about in literature. Not look at in real life when the people involved are strangers to me! 

Edited July 6, 2019 by Churchhoney

[JoanArc]

11 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

How did Michelle cope after Jubilee? Did she blame herself?

 I doubt Michelle is capable of feeling blame for anything.

[Zella]

I didn't know about Jeremy and Jinger being filmed the morning after. That seems quite invasive. But given what we know about Jeremy's famewhoring, it makes total sense.

[Soup333]

Personally, I don’t get the need to share this many photos with the public. To me, one would have sufficed. Everything else should have been kept private. There’s no need for a photo shoot for the world to see during this time. 

[QuinnInND]

1 hour ago, JoanArc said:

 I doubt Michelle is capable of feeling blame for anything.

She felt blame for her neighbor leaving his wife when she was mowing in her bikini like a harlot. 🤣

[GeeGolly]

23 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

She felt blame for her neighbor leaving his wife when she was mowing in her bikini like a harlot. 🤣

Only because she gets to compliment herself telling the story.

[wilsie]

6 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Only because she gets to compliment herself telling the story.

A humblebrag.

[Aunt Catfish]

14 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

How did Michelle cope after Jubilee? Did she blame herself?

In a way I think she should have.  I bet $5 that after Josie pulled through her doctors strongly advised against any more pregnancies.  This may also have been the Lord's way of telling her to stop too (of course we don't know that for sure), but she didn't listen.  And we know what happened.  

[Aunt Catfish]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Oh, I completely agree about sadness being nothing to be ashamed of. .... But I'm still leery of playing out your most vulnerable moments with the whole world actually watching it! 

Over the past several years, two people I know got catfished and taken emotional advantage of related to some personal events they'd shared a lot about online.

Both were younger millennials who felt they understood social media well and wouldn't fall victim to anyone's advances. 

Ultimately, neither got robbed or physically threatened or anything.  Just involved in some intense communication and online "relationships" they felt were serious and, at first, helpful with people who supposedly empathized with them.

When they eventually found that the "relationships" were not real but were the leadup to requests and suggestions that clearly crossed lines, it was tough to take. 

Anyway, I've added these events to my own personal privacy hangups, so I always see that as a too-real possibility when somebody shares very intimate stuff with a bunch of people that they don't know at all! (Maybe it's just paranoia. But I prefer to think of it as paranoia laced with some common sense! I figure there's a reason so many self-help groups require anonymity and widows used to wear veils!

(And I put maybe too much faith in my own gut reactions -- and I just feel like I had absolutely no right and no business and no reason seeing Joy's and Austin's pictures....So I go with that!) 

Being a bit older, I totally understand what you are trying to convey about the value of privacy!  At work I tried sincerely to advise a 25 year old to tone down her behavior a little as to not tick off a couple of water buffalos we work with who could cause her problems.  She looked at me like I was a Klingon.  It is hard giving pearls of wisdom to some millennials.  They already know everything.  Just ask them.

[Aunt Catfish]

10 hours ago, NotthebadVictoria said:

I honestly think she did the shout out because people were eating Carlin alive over her posted photos, so Joy added some context to it to defend Carlin. I doubt most people read her reply to Carlin’s post. 

Carlin did a nice thing.  She dropped everything, travelled to Arkansas, and took care of her friend.  If ever anyone needed that kind of a lift Joy did.  We should all have friends like that.

[Ohiopirate02]

31 minutes ago, Aunt Catfish said:

Carlin did a nice thing.  She dropped everything, travelled to Arkansas, and took care of her friend.  If ever anyone needed that kind of a lift Joy did.  We should all have friends like that.

I agree. I can also see Carlin helping Joy with her hair and makeup because it was something tangible she could do to help.  It sucks to be beside your friend while she is going through the worst moment of her life and you can't do anything.  

[JoanArc]

4 hours ago, QuinnInND said:

She felt blame for her neighbor leaving his wife when she was mowing in her bikini like a harlot. 🤣

Blame that calls attention to how hot you are isn't the same thing. 😉

Edit: Gegolly beat me to it. Michelle may actually blame herself for taking the BC pill that lunched this insanity, though. But then, it's the insanity that gets attention.

Edited July 6, 2019 by JoanArc

[NotthebadVictoria]

2 hours ago, Aunt Catfish said:

Carlin did a nice thing.  She dropped everything, travelled to Arkansas, and took care of her friend.  If ever anyone needed that kind of a lift Joy did.  We should all have friends like that.

Agreed

[luvmylabs]

On 7/5/2019 at 5:16 AM, Churchhoney said:

I'm baffled by why you'd ever take that first picture, if you're Carlin, or, if you're Joy, fix your hair and makeup for it to be taken (apparently). Let alone publish it or allow it to be published to the world at large.

This isn't like making some kind of private memory book about your lost child. (Although it wouldn't even occur to me to put the family grief in such a book about the child. You'll remember the damn grief. All too vividly. No need to have photos of it. If somebody tried to photograph me in a moment like that, I'm pretty sure I'd violently break their camera.)

Joy obviously has a right to do what she wants to do. But to me it seems near insane to think of times like that as something for public consumption by thousands of strangers. I can't get my brain around what would be going on in Carlin's or Joy's mind to prompt either to want to do that. 

Help me out here. Is this publication for strangers something they did because being media and social-media celebrities has completely changed the way they look at things or is this some normal-type impulse that I ought to recognize but don't? (and, if so,  what is the impulse....?)

ETA: Okay, now I've read the rest of the posts. It's not just me. 

I wonder if other denizens of social media and minor celebrities also do this? Or do these people go this far because of their isolation and ignorance? It all seems insane.

I understand it is now fairly common for couples who have lost a child to have some photographs taken, whether by a loved one or a professional.  I don't really have a problem with it as it was very common in Victorian times to take photos of dead children or loved ones.  You can google some of the pictures.  BUT, I do have a problem with posting them for the world to see.  I can only imagine because this grief stricken young couple has lived most of their lives in the spotlight (Joy especially), that it never occurred to them to do anything else.  That strikes me as very sad. 

Also, since we are on the topic, there are several organizations that make burial clothing for children who did not survive birth, or died soon afterward.  You can donate your wedding gown and they make the tiny outfits from these donated gowns.  They are quite beautiful.  The seamstresses volunteer their time.  I just sent my wedding gown to Sew Sweet Angel Gowns in Phoenix.  They are on the web.  There are other groups as well, though some are not accepting gowns right now.  I cannot think of a better use for my old gown.  A friend whose child lived only a few hours was comforted by the baby dress given to her.

[Dmarie019]

I have no problem with joy posting whatever she feels the need to post. However what I think is weird is the family and friends posting about it also. Let joy and Austin share their grief but it’s really unnecessary for others to repost it. Unless it’s something like “please keep my friend/sister/daughter and her husband in your thoughts and prayers” type of post but Carlin’s post seemed really tacky. 

[WalrusGirl]

13 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Did Joy even get a chance to properly grieve, given the photo shoots, the People story, having to post on social media, etc?   I just feel bad for this young, naive mother having to go through all of this in such a public way, and also because she might not have even given it a second thought, since she literally knows no other way...

I hardly think she’s done grieving, but I think they released the information and photos on their own timeline - her family and friends don’t seem to have given any indications of leaking it before she did. Odds are she wanted to head off a) being seen locally in public, likely visibly smaller than she had been (my sister gave birth at 32.5 weeks, a week and a half before her baby shower, and some people who came to the shower still thought she was pregnant - this was pre-FB and texting - but smaller than they had expected/no bigger than they’d last seen her), and getting into conversations with people who thought she was still pregnant, and b) avoid getting questions about being radio silent online for an unusual amount of time and speculation, or comments/questions about her pregnancy along with the other SILs’ on their various SM.

So you drop the information online, with whatever information and photos you do or don’t want, and avoid running into any in-person, texted, emailed, or SMed mentions of your pregnancy as though it’s still ongoing. Done. ☑️ You can then ignore anything else, the comments, etc that you want. She wouldn’t have participated at all in the People piece, etc - while they likely have requests for comment they ignored or declined, the gossip rags and blogs were just effectively reposting her own post.

10 hours ago, momma2seven said:

Wanted to very cautiously make a suggestion (because I don't want to start a Pickles conspiracy) It is possible Joy and Austin have known for some time that there was an issue with the pregnancy/baby and that it was unlikely she would be born alive. Maybe they have had more time to process and plan for this than we realize. IF a certain conspiracy is correct that there were indications of a problem in the 10 week ultrasound, they may have already gone through the most raw part of the grieving process while also hoping for a miracle. 

I’d agree with this *if* they got actual prenatal care and *if* they/Joy hadn’t looked *so* happy and peaceful in all of her subsequent pregnant photos. Her initial pregnancy announcement was after that 10 wk ultrasound, and did.not read like they were knowingly solely relying on prayer and enjoying as much as they were given. She wouldn’t have posted the video if she knew it was diagnostic for something serious, at least without also coveting prayers for the pregnancy.

10 hours ago, Zella said:

I suppose I could see that happening, but the pictures of Joy and Austin up until this point have just been glowing--they just don't look like people who have been hit with bad news. Really, it's the best pics I've ever seen of them together. They look happy and comfortable--Austin's smile even reaches his eyes!

Likewise, the pictures from the hospital, to me, looked like people who had just been completely taken by surprise, especially Austin. Someone above mentioned how very raw his emotions looked. I agree. I really think they were completely blindsided by this. 

👆This. 😔

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I understand that gut feeling. While I didn't get the feeling I had no business seeing Joy's posts, I did feel that way when Jinger and Jeremy were filmed in their hotel room the morning after their wedding.

OMG, I’d forgotten that - I felt totally squicky and “WHY?!”

10 hours ago, JoanArc said:

 I doubt Michelle is capable of feeling blame for anything.

Caleb.

9 hours ago, Soup333 said:

Personally, I don’t get the need to share this many photos with the public. To me, one would have sufficed. Everything else should have been kept private. There’s no need for a photo shoot for the world to see during this time. 

I’d bet they just couldn’t choose fewer/narrow it down anymore. It’s digital, so whether it was their own photography, NILMDTS (wonderful people), or a combination, there are easily 100+ photos, likely several hundred. From that, 50 good/great ones to Joy and Austin, and so on.

4 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Blame that calls attention to how hot you are isn't the same thing. 😉

Edit: Gegolly beat me to it. Michelle may actually blame herself for taking the BC pill that lunched this insanity, though. But then, it's the insanity that gets attention.

Yeah, the pill is what immediately came to my mind! Sigh.

[EmeraldGirl]

The Duggars are a whole different breed that most of us don’t understand. Joy lived this life since she was a small child. She invited 1000 people to her wedding, for God’s sakes. She didn’t know most of them, I’m sure. She is conditioned to this way of life, and has had nothing or no one to show her anything else  

They value babies in utero more than anything. I think it makes perfect sense for Joy to want to share this experience. She’s being pro-life, and showing the grief of losing a child not yet born. She probably can’t comprehend not doing what comes naturally or was ingrained in her. 

I have zero judgment on this. Whatever they wanted to do is their choice. I also didn’t judge the Jubilee funeral either. Michelle and JB should never have tried to have another one, but my heart did break for Michelle when she heard the news. I wouldn’t have done it, but I cannot judge on something so personal as this.  

[sugarplum]

I’m in the minority here and don’t see their posting on SM being a millennial thing, or just because they are on TV. I’ve had 3 close friends who have gone through something very similar. One was pregnant with twins and lost them both at 23 weeks. She delivered them both, a day apart from each other. She immediately took pictures and posted them online. She had been very open about her pregnancy and bedrest, and it was the easiest way to let everyone that knew her know she had lost them. This occurred 3 years ago, and she still celebrates her boys and shares their pictures on social media. Another friend had a singleton 2 years ago and lost him in the 22-24 week range as well. She, too, immediately posted his picture and celebrates him just the way she does her living daughter. Friend 1 was 34. Friend 2 was 25. Last spring, a very dear friend of mine went for her anatomy scan and found out their second child was a sweet baby boy. They also found out that he had multiple conditions that were in no way compatible with life. She is relatively well known and shares much of her life with her followers - though what she shares is filtered. She controls the information. After the ultrasound, she came home and grieved for a few days of what was to come and what will not be. She shared it with those of us closest to her. Several days later, she took immediately to social media to let everyone know what was going on. She did not share all of the details, but shared enough that her followers knew it was serious and grim. She chose to carry her son as long as the Lord allowed her. He was only expected to live a few days longer. She ended up carrying him until 30 weeks, when she started having signs of labor. She delivered a beautiful baby boy, who cried as he was born. He died shortly after in their arms. She had complications after birth and spent several extra days in the hospital. But once home for a few days, she again, shared the story of his birth, his short life, and his death. She shared from 20 weeks on her experience. She shared his story. She shared their feelings. Her reasoning - this was a child that they loved and prayed for. A child they wanted. They shared their first child, there was no way they were going to hide their second child away and not share and celebrate his life as well, no matter how short it was. Their first picture shared was of his sweet little hand. Nothing else, just his hand and theirs. A few weeks later, they shared a picture of him, but with his face turned away from the camera (he was very swollen and had some mild obvious deformities). A few weeks later, they shared his face, knowing that people were curious, and again, wanting to share and celebrate his life as much as a healthy child. She has shared many times about their walk, and how she didn’t know how to comfort one in her shoes before all of this. She has explained what she needed, how she felt, how she endured in the hopes that it would not only help another mother walking that road, but that it would help anyone who KNEW someone facing those hard days. She has since gone on to have another healthy son, almost a year to the date she lost her middle child. Her youngest is celebrated the same way the first 2 were. For reference sake, she is 35. 

Ive experienced multiple miscarriages, all between 7-12 weeks. Losing a pregnancy, even that early, is devastating, but I can’t ever compare my grief to my friends who lost babies that they held in their arms. I’ve also learned that everyone grieves differently. I was 6 months pregnant when I lost my 32 year old sister very unexpectedly. My sister was my best friend. Grief changes us, whether we want it to or not. Sometimes we find comfort in talking as much as we can about the one we have lost, sharing pictures, videos, etc. Other times, we find comfort in secluding ourselves away, hiding from the world. Neither is right or wrong...we do what we have to do to survive these times. 

I hate seeing judgement on these kids (sorry, that’s what they are to me) just because of the way they are grieving. MANY people who have a stillbirth, or lose a baby shortly after birth have photos taken. I’m a professional photographer and for a while, I took pictures for Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep. It was a gut wrenching and beautiful job all at the same time. There was not a family that I photographed for that I didn’t cry right along with them. I hugged them and sobbed with them, while capturing every single thing that I could for them, knowing those pictures would be the only thing they had to “see” of their child in the hours, days, weeks, months, years to come. I would often get in my car to go home and be unable to drive for the tears. Joy isn’t the first person to have her hair and makeup done for photos after birth. I’ve had friends who have had normal births, and immediately after, called in a professional hair and make up artist to fix them up so that it looks as if they had an effortless birth, and are perfect for photos of their new family. I’d imagine it made Joy feel good after such heartache to be fluffed and puffed and made beautiful...even though I’m sure she was dying inside. That may not be true for everyone. After I gave birth to my daughter, I really didn’t care what I looked like. I was just overjoyed to finally have a living child in my arms. But I totally understand the “normalcy” of wanting to be made up, especially for pictures. I can not and will not fault Joy for that. Carlin gets on my nerves, but she deserves credit here. She did a beautiful thing by being there for her friend. She dropped everything and was THERE. That alone is a good friend to me. She did what she could - when she likely felt helpless in the situation - she did something that she could actually do (and is very good at)...she made Joy beautiful for her pictures; pictures that Joy will cling to and look back on for many years to come. 

I see no problem with the images that were shared. They were tasteful and not at all inappropriate. Joy and Austin shared on THEIR timeline - apparently a week after they lost Annabell. They controlled that narrative. 

And as far as the rest of the family continuing to post on social media even after they knew this had happened to their sister, I have a different perspective. It has already been mentioned that if they stopped posting on SM for a week, people would question why. They obviously wanted no attention drawn that would make people question what was going on. On top of that, I would be surprised if they do not always use an Instagram scheduler to post. You can load images a month or longer in advance, schedule the date that they will post, enter the caption, and some schedulers will even auto post for you...meaning, you never have to open Instagram and yet, your feed and stories are full. Considering the fact that the Duggar’s often post images that aren’t necessarily in real time, but weeks or longer after the picture was taken, I have felt for a while that they have used Planoly, Later, or one of the other schedulers out there. And I have no problem with it. I use it myself for my business. It keeps me posting frequently without having to devote time to the SM game every day. IF this is what many family members do, then it makes perfect sense why it appears as though the family members continued on with life as normal (multiple photos of Felicity, etc) while Joy and Austin were experiencing the worse days of their life. 

I choose to give them grace through this. I’m not a Duggar fan by any means, but I don’t think their cult has any bearing on this. They are young adults who are in uncharted territory in their own life and they are doing what it takes to survive. And here’s the thing with grief...what works today for you, may not be what you need tomorrow. You take each day as it comes and you adjust the sails as necessary to keep yourself above water. If Joy and Austin find comfort I sharing their daughter, I applaud them for it. If they find comfort in hiding away from the world, continue hiding without question. Grieve, by whatever means necessary. 

[Churchhoney]

My conclusion is that we owe Joy and the rest of the Duggarlings reparations for allowing their young lives to be exploited for "entertainment.

We -- all of us -- ought to pay them -- and all the other kids so treated -- for every day we haven't, and don't, pass laws flatly forbidding parents to sell their minor children's personal lives to be videotaped and broadcast. That sounds like a joke, I suppose, but I'm serious.

If we as a society didn't allow -- encourage, in fact -- parents to hijack their children's youth as conscripts on "entertainment" "reality tv," the Duggar kids wouldn't have to navigate questions like whether showing intimate snapshots of your most vulnerable moments to family and friends also requires showing those same snapshots to 2-plus million total strangers. With many if not most of those strangers undoubtedly motivated by various obsessions and prone to imagining that you somehow "owe" them various kinds of information -- because you're a "celebrity" or a "public figure." 

It's one thing for a fully-fledged adult who hasn't been conscripted into the public sphere as a child to choose to fully publicize personal things that some might keep private.

It's entirely another, in my opinion, for someone to be swept along into dilemmas like that because their parents put them in that situation as children. And so they unconsciously accepted a very abnormal situation as normal without ever getting the option to understand that that's true or to decide whether they want it.

Of course, some kids with these very public childhoods will find it relatively easy to get free of their habits and make their own choices. But others -- through no fault of their own -- will have tremendous difficulty getting beyond their conditioning to make informed choices in their own self-interest. As we all know, for many of us getting free of a habit -- especially one we developed unconsciously -- is really difficult.

To see that we, as a society, do think it's wrong for adults to choose a highly public life for minors, we only have to look to the longstanding principle -- agreed to by virtually everyone --  that media not turn a spotlight on the minor children of presidents and other elected officials. 

Those minor children aren't public figures and they didn't make a choice to have their lives broadcast as their parents did, it's said. As a society, we generally believe that we'd risk seriously harming those kids by giving them lives in a fishbowl when they aren't old enough to make an informed choice about whether they want such a life.

And, as a society, we generally agree that we shouldn't habituate minors to the many very complicated choices about privacy and publicity, truth and lies, image and reality, that a fishbowl life forces you to grapple with. 

If we realize that's true for one group of minors, we're lying to ourselves if we pretend it isn't true for all. 

The only ethical and humane choice is to ban minors from reality tv. Parents who put them on there are committing mental and emotional child abuse -- and sending their kids into adulthood with a highly warped view of the world -- and as a society we're aiding and abetting it.

Not that we'd ever outlaw such a thing. Because "bread and circuses" and "dollars." And, in the Duggars' case, "parents have a 100-percent right to run their children's lives exactly as the parents choose." 

That's my takeaway from my turmoil about the Joy situation.

I don't think the situation of people whose social media followings include hundreds of thousands of strangers is comparable to that of the rest of us, whose connections don't spread beyond a few thousand people at most, with the majority of those being people we're actually linked to in some way, through interests or a personal network or the like. 

I think it's fine for any adult to choose any level of self-revelation they want in a forum of tens of millions if they want to.

But if you've been accustomed as a kid to wide-scale public exposure, I worry that when you make your decisions about those things as an adult, you may not have the full awareness of options that you really ought to have when you choose. 

I have never been judging Joy or Jill or Carlin and the rest of the Duggarlings in this situation at all, by the way. They have a right to do everything they're doing, and nothing that any of them has done or not done here has been "wrong" in any way, as far as i'm concerned. 

My issue is that I believe we should protect every child and teenager from ever having to decide what aspects of their personal lives they do or don't share with a multitude of gawking strangers. And that no child or teenager should ever have to decide -- or follow parental guidance about -- what truths and what lies to tell the general public about their personal lives. Kids have enough things to worry about and learn without being put in positions of navigating general public exposure of personal things. 

Kids should have their privacy protected -- in part because, if they don't, their ability as adults to make informed and self-interested decisions about sharing personal things with the general public will be impaired.

How and when and how much to expose your personal life to the general public is a big big issue. And for most of us it's an issue we'll never have to worry about.

But I think people who were put in the position of doing it willy nilly on their parents' say-so as minors may not be as well equipped as I think they ought to be to make decisions like that.

I'm not sure that coming from a situation like that even informs you about the difference between the general public and people you know or about the difference between millions of people knowing something about you and people in your own personal network and community knowing something about you. 

(And I'm actually not sure any of the rest of us are any better equipped to get our brains around the difference between having our own networks and communities of a few thousand people, maybe, see intimate aspects of our personal lives....and having millions of total strangers see and know such things. And -- much worse and obviously fully in play when we're talking about "media celebrities" of all sorts -- of being perceived to have handed those personal things directly to those millions of strangers for, apparently, their perusal and delectation. 

Something tells me that those situations are very different. And I feel quite lucky that I'll never have to experience the "should I hand this personal thing directly to millions of people, many of whom will imagine that my giving it to them in turn it gives them some rights and access to me" question. )

Edited July 7, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Minivanessa]

@sugarplum, I wish I could "like" your post a thousand times. Thank you!!

[wilsie]

@Sugar Plum  Thank you.  That was beautiful.

[luvmylabs]

43 minutes ago, sugarplum said:

I’m in the minority here and don’t see their posting on SM being a millennial thing, or just because they are on TV. I’ve had 3 close friends who have gone through something very similar. One was pregnant with twins and lost them both at 23 weeks. She delivered them both, a day apart from each other. She immediately took pictures and posted them online. She had been very open about her pregnancy and bedrest, and it was the easiest way to let everyone that knew her know she had lost them. This occurred 3 years ago, and she still celebrates her boys and shares their pictures on social media. Another friend had a singleton 2 years ago and lost him in the 22-24 week range as well. She, too, immediately posted his picture and celebrates him just the way she does her living daughter. Friend 1 was 34. Friend 2 was 25. Last spring, a very dear friend of mine went for her anatomy scan and found out their second child was a sweet baby boy. They also found out that he had multiple conditions that were in no way compatible with life. She is relatively well known and shares much of her life with her followers - though what she shares is filtered. She controls the information. After the ultrasound, she came home and grieved for a few days of what was to come and what will not be. She shared it with those of us closest to her. Several days later, she took immediately to social media to let everyone know what was going on. She did not share all of the details, but shared enough that her followers knew it was serious and grim. She chose to carry her son as long as the Lord allowed her. He was only expected to live a few days longer. She ended up carrying him until 30 weeks, when she started having signs of labor. She delivered a beautiful baby boy, who cried as he was born. He died shortly after in their arms. She had complications after birth and spent several extra days in the hospital. But once home for a few days, she again, shared the story of his birth, his short life, and his death. She shared from 20 weeks on her experience. She shared his story. She shared their feelings. Her reasoning - this was a child that they loved and prayed for. A child they wanted. They shared their first child, there was no way they were going to hide their second child away and not share and celebrate his life as well, no matter how short it was. Their first picture shared was of his sweet little hand. Nothing else, just his hand and theirs. A few weeks later, they shared a picture of him, but with his face turned away from the camera (he was very swollen and had some mild obvious deformities). A few weeks later, they shared his face, knowing that people were curious, and again, wanting to share and celebrate his life as much as a healthy child. She has shared many times about their walk, and how she didn’t know how to comfort one in her shoes before all of this. She has explained what she needed, how she felt, how she endured in the hopes that it would not only help another mother walking that road, but that it would help anyone who KNEW someone facing those hard days. She has since gone on to have another healthy son, almost a year to the date she lost her middle child. Her youngest is celebrated the same way the first 2 were. For reference sake, she is 35. 

Ive experienced multiple miscarriages, all between 7-12 weeks. Losing a pregnancy, even that early, is devastating, but I can’t ever compare my grief to my friends who lost babies that they held in their arms. I’ve also learned that everyone grieves differently. I was 6 months pregnant when I lost my 32 year old sister very unexpectedly. My sister was my best friend. Grief changes us, whether we want it to or not. Sometimes we find comfort in talking as much as we can about the one we have lost, sharing pictures, videos, etc. Other times, we find comfort in secluding ourselves away, hiding from the world. Neither is right or wrong...we do what we have to do to survive these times. 

I hate seeing judgement on these kids (sorry, that’s what they are to me) just because of the way they are grieving. MANY people who have a stillbirth, or lose a baby shortly after birth have photos taken. I’m a professional photographer and for a while, I took pictures for Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep. It was a gut wrenching and beautiful job all at the same time. There was not a family that I photographed for that I didn’t cry right along with them. I hugged them and sobbed with them, while capturing every single thing that I could for them, knowing those pictures would be the only thing they had to “see” of their child in the hours, days, weeks, months, years to come. I would often get in my car to go home and be unable to drive for the tears. Joy isn’t the first person to have her hair and makeup done for photos after birth. I’ve had friends who have had normal births, and immediately after, called in a professional hair and make up artist to fix them up so that it looks as if they had an effortless birth, and are perfect for photos of their new family. I’d imagine it made Joy feel good after such heartache to be fluffed and puffed and made beautiful...even though I’m sure she was dying inside. That may not be true for everyone. After I gave birth to my daughter, I really didn’t care what I looked like. I was just overjoyed to finally have a living child in my arms. But I totally understand the “normalcy” of wanting to be made up, especially for pictures. I can not and will not fault Joy for that. Carlin gets on my nerves, but she deserves credit here. She did a beautiful thing by being there for her friend. She dropped everything and was THERE. That alone is a good friend to me. She did what she could - when she likely felt helpless in the situation - she did something that she could actually do (and is very good at)...she made Joy beautiful for her pictures; pictures that Joy will cling to and look back on for many years to come. 

I see no problem with the images that were shared. They were tasteful and not at all inappropriate. Joy and Austin shared on THEIR timeline - apparently a week after they lost Annabell. They controlled that narrative. 

And as far as the rest of the family continuing to post on social media even after they knew this had happened to their sister, I have a different perspective. It has already been mentioned that if they stopped posting on SM for a week, people would question why. They obviously wanted no attention drawn that would make people question what was going on. On top of that, I would be surprised if they do not always use an Instagram scheduler to post. You can load images a month or longer in advance, schedule the date that they will post, enter the caption, and some schedulers will even auto post for you...meaning, you never have to open Instagram and yet, your feed and stories are full. Considering the fact that the Duggar’s often post images that aren’t necessarily in real time, but weeks or longer after the picture was taken, I have felt for a while that they have used Planoly, Later, or one of the other schedulers out there. And I have no problem with it. I use it myself for my business. It keeps me posting frequently without having to devote time to the SM game every day. IF this is what many family members do, then it makes perfect sense why it appears as though the family members continued on with life as normal (multiple photos of Felicity, etc) while Joy and Austin were experiencing the worse days of their life. 

I choose to give them grace through this. I’m not a Duggar fan by any means, but I don’t think their cult has any bearing on this. They are young adults who are in uncharted territory in their own life and they are doing what it takes to survive. And here’s the thing with grief...what works today for you, may not be what you need tomorrow. You take each day as it comes and you adjust the sails as necessary to keep yourself above water. If Joy and Austin find comfort I sharing their daughter, I applaud them for it. If they find comfort in hiding away from the world, continue hiding without question. Grieve, by whatever means necessary. 

Let me clarify my point.  Though I would not choose to share pictures of a deceased child on the internet, I cannot fault those who might do so.  But I wonder if Joy and Austin even realized they had a CHOICE to do this or not do it.  I think they have been conditioned to think their lives are open books and they have no need for privacy, which I think we all are entitled to if we want it.

[Zella]

To me, the fact they waited a week indicates it was not an impulsive decision on their part. 

[Annabel11]

The floodgates have been opened. I'm afraid there is no going back, with the ability for anyone and everyone to post their entire lives online for all to see if they choose. It's a whole new world we are navigating and it's fascinating and scary to watch. 

[sugarplum]

27 minutes ago, luvmylabs said:

Let me clarify my point.  Though I would not choose to share pictures of a deceased child on the internet, I cannot fault those who might do so.  But I wonder if Joy and Austin even realized they had a CHOICE to do this or not do it.  I think they have been conditioned to think their lives are open books and they have no need for privacy, which I think we all are entitled to if we want it.

I think the choice is in HOW they share, which will differ wildly from person to person, famous or not. Because they are in the public eye, I think it would be awfully hard to not acknowledge the loss in some way when it will be obvious she is no longer pregnant. That being said, for anyone that posts even semi-regularly and has acknowledged a pregnancy on social media, I think the same would be true. If you have announced you were pregnant, had an obvious bump, and suddenly no longer do, you can choose to not say anything, but by doing so, you are allowing others to speculate what went wrong. For some, that’s ok. They don’t mind. For others, they want to control the narrative. They want the truth out before rumors start or questions are asked. I don’t think this is exclusive to public figures or celebrities. It’s true of anyone with a semi active social media presence. 

20 minutes ago, Zella said:

To me, the fact they waited a week indicates it was not an impulsive decision on their part. 

Exactly. 

[BetyBee]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

@sugarplum, I wish I could "like" your post a thousand times. Thank you!!

Same here, Sugarplum.  I have two sisters who had full term stillbirths and even the two of them grieved differently.  Thankfully, they were permitted to hold their babies, but no one was taking such pictures in those days.  I know they would treasure such photos.  I think it was brave of Joy and Austin to share their grief.  Stillbirth is not often talked about, but it happens all too often.  Miscarriages are far more common, but also not talked about much.  When my younger sister lost her baby, I remember talking about it at my daughter's pre-school (with the moms, not the kids).  They were all so kind, except my daughter's teacher who said nothing.  Later she confided in me that her first child was born with a heart defect and died shortly after.  Hearing about my sister brought back painful memories and she couldn't talk about it until we were alone.  It is a loss that is borne for life and yes, it does change you.  Sugarplum, I loved your kind and understanding post.  Thank you for all that you have done for grieving parents.  ❤️

[mimionthebeach]

21 hours ago, Aunt Catfish said:

Carlin did a nice thing.  She dropped everything, travelled to Arkansas, and took care of her friend.  If ever anyone needed that kind of a lift Joy did.  We should all have friends like that.

Does anyone else in that family have a friend like that? Their siblings and parents are always their best friends until they marry their best friend, but Joy and Carlin seem to share a genuine and meaningful friendship. She's lucky. 

[BitterApple]

7 minutes ago, mimionthebeach said:

Does anyone else in that family have a friend like that? Their siblings and parents are always their best friends until they marry their best friend, but Joy and Carlin seem to share a genuine and meaningful friendship. She's lucky. 

The only one that I can think of is Jana's friend, Laura.

Edited July 7, 2019 by BitterApple

[lascuba]

8 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

My conclusion is that we owe Joy and the rest of the Duggarlings reparations for allowing their young lives to be exploited for "entertainment.

We -- all of us -- ought to pay them -- and all the other kids so treated -- for every day we haven't, and don't, pass laws flatly forbidding parents to sell their minor children's personal lives to be videotaped and broadcast. That sounds like a joke, I suppose, but I'm serious.

I will when they stop passing laws that take away rights from only a very select few. I'm not about to let sympathy make me forget just who these people are. 

[Churchhoney]

46 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I will when they stop passing laws that take away rights from only a very select few. I'm not about to let sympathy make me forget just who these people are. 

Yeah, I get that. But, to my mind, people's beliefs don't mean that wrongs done to them shouldn't be redressed, including wrongs done by our poor ethics as a society. And of course it wouldn't only be the Duggarlings I'd compensate .... The Gosselins, etc., would get in on it, too.....😀

Edited July 8, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Twopper]

On 7/4/2019 at 11:25 AM, Trillium said:

There’s a non profit called Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep where they have volunteer photographers come to take photos when there is a stillbirth or when they know they baby will not survive. It’s been around for a while. I had a former coworker who’s sister had a textbook pregnancy and delivery, but the baby had a previously undetected heart defect and passed and they had this service come and take what were the most heartbreaking but beautiful photos and this was like 9 years ago. 

It may have been around longer--or at least a similar one.  I had just delivered our daughter and was resting in bed watching tv when it aired a special with Jane Pauly called "Some are Born Dead."   It was actually somewhat healing for me as my mother had lost my sister as a late term still birth.  That program aired in the late 80's.   We had a couple in our parish recently deliver a full term baby that was not going to live;  they had pictures taken of his baptism and last rites, and he actually lived a little longer than expected. 

[lascuba]

8 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I get that. But, to my mind, people's beliefs don't mean that wrongs done to them shouldn't be redressed, including wrongs done by our poor ethics as a society. And of course it wouldn't only be the Duggarlings I'd compensate .... The Gosselins, etc., would get in on it, too.....😀

The world being what it is, I'd need THEM to compensate for all the wrong they've done before they get anything, because we all know they'd take any compensation and use it to hurt others even more. 

[Absolom]

11 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I get that. But, to my mind, people's beliefs don't mean that wrongs done to them shouldn't be redressed, including wrongs done by our poor ethics as a society.

They can sue their parents, the networks, and the production companies.  Keep it directly in line with who caused the damage.  I don't owe any Duggar a dime nor a Gosselin either for that matter. 

[Aethera]

Folks, I think we've all weighed in now on Joy and Austin's decision to share their tough situation online, and whether or not we would do the same. We do not need to agree, or convince anyone of our point of view, so let's move on. And remember, sharing personal stories is best done in Small Talk. 

[ginger90]

[xwordfanatik]

Cute pic.  Joy is so pretty!  Giddyup is a cutie.

[louannems]

2 hours ago, xwordfanatik said:

Cute pic.  Joy is so pretty!  Giddyup is a cutie.

I can't get over how much thinner Joy was for her past pregnancy, compared to her first.  Also, this photo seems extremely photoshopped.  It looks like a partial arm and hand near her neck!

For a second, I thought Giddy was Sammy.

Joy looks beautiful.

[galaxychaser]

Giddy looks like Sammy! 

[QuinnInND]

52 minutes ago, louannems said:

For a second, I thought Giddy was Sammy.

Joy looks beautiful.

I agree with both of these statements. I hope Giddy is helping Joy in her grief. Hugging her sweet little boy and holding him close will help.  

[lascuba]

9 hours ago, louannems said:

I can't get over how much thinner Joy was for her past pregnancy, compared to her first.  Also, this photo seems extremely photoshopped.  It looks like a partial arm and hand near her neck!

I'm trying to figure out what she was trying to do and can't come up with anything. There's a clearly blacked out area to Gideon's right and I can't imagine what she's trying to cover.

[BradandJanet]

It's like one of those black and while images that can be seen two different ways. I first saw a rumpled neckline and shadows. Now that I see the blurry little hand, I can't unsee it. 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

You can look in her face and tell she’s been through something traumatic.  Poor Joy.  Giddyup seems clean and healthy, so she’s obviously a good mom to him. 

[Saylii]

6 hours ago, lascuba said:

I'm trying to figure out what she was trying to do and can't come up with anything. There's a clearly blacked out area to Gideon's right and I can't imagine what she's trying to cover.

Bet it’s bra/bra strap.  I have so many cute selfies with my kids and inevitably a boob is always hanging out.

[Snow Fairy]

[GeeGolly]

12 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

Giddy looks a lot like Sammy in this photo.

[Snow Fairy]

Yes, at first I thought it was Sam and Jill, when in popped on my Instagram

I adore sleeping babies, such angels

[awaken]

Looks like Sam, and Jessa!  I never saw the resemblance until his face was all smushed and sleepy!