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Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

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4 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

I don't think the Duggar women were built for birthin' and pregnancy like their mother was. Granted Michelle did manage to have competent medical care throughout her pregnancies and deliveries. Who is to say if she hadn't had the care she did?

I think JB and Meech set the expectations too high and made it all look just that easy.

^^I agree. Both that the Duggar daughters (vs the DILs) don't seem to be able to just pop out babies and keep on rolling like their mom, *and* that with the notable exception of Jinger they have had little to no actual medical prenatal care.

The only Duggar daughter who's never experienced complications (or tragedy) in childbirth is - Jinger. Who went to a San Antonio hospital for the birth.  (Here's a Captain Obvious recap, although I'm sure all regular readers know all this. Two of Jessa's three homebirths were accompanied by uncontrolled bleeding that got Jessa an ambulance ride to the hospital. Both Jill's attempted home deliveries ended in unplanned C-sections and though we didn't get as many details about Sam as about Izzy, it was clear that serious stuff went down both times. And poor Joy had Giddy by C-section and her second pregnancy ended tragically in a stillbirth.)

Will these three Duggar daughters EVER figure this out, and decide they would benefit from actual prenatal medical care from someone other than Jilly Muffin or a lay midwife? The kind of medical care their mother apparently had for all her pregnancies? (I know Meech had a few homebirths but I can't believe she never saw a doctor for any of those pregnancies.)

I see Jeremy as a husband who ain't fooling around for a hot minute with the lives of his wife and babies, and thus Jinger had prenatal care and a hospital delivery.

Will Derick get his head out of his *ss if Jill ever gets pregnant again, and insist she get real medical care?

Will Bin look at the history and also insist on Jessa's delivering in the hospital next time?

I wonder if Austin will insist, after the loss of their baby, that Joy get real medical care for her next pregnancy. He doesn't strike me as a wimp, and I'm sure the stillbirth hit him hard. 

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Michelle had two home births, Jinger and Joe.

I do think it comes down to a question of money. TLC doesn't pay for the medical bills so they are doing the equivalent of "buy used and save the difference" when it comes to childbirth.

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1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I think Joy will get pregnant again very quickly. If they're having sex regularly and not using birth control, it's inevitable.

It's probably a likely scenario, but my gut tells me that they will hold off even if it's mostly subconsciously...I'm sure they have at least a working knowledge of when the most fertile times of her cycle would be, and now that they have firsthand knowledge of the pain which comes from the sort of loss they went through, they may just instinctively shy away from another pregnancy right away. 

While I recognize that even an early miscarriage such as Lauren had can be every bit as painful under some circumstances, much of that depends on how much effort went into the conception. A first-time miscarriage after a conception within the first two or three months of marriage is totally different - even if the pregnancy was a planned and joyous thing - than a miscarriage a long period of trying, or after multiple lost pregnancies. And losing a baby at 20 months, fully-formed yet non-viable, has simply got to be rougher, no matter what, than losing a barely formed jellybean of a fetus which might still easily be overlooked as a heavy period unless one was making a habitual use of pee-sticks. Point being that as much as she might think that she and Joy suffered an equal loss, Lauren has no clue. Which is why, I think, she could move right on to another try where Joy might need more time. 

As I say, it might be more subconscious than otherwise, but I just feel that Joy and Austin will be giving it a little bit more time.

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I think we forget that we met Michelle near the end of her reproductive life, and we are seeing the Duggar Daughters at the beginning. 

If you looked at Michelle’s first 3 pregnancies the odds wouldn’t look great either- Josh, a first trimester miscarriage and then a required c-section due to pre-eclampsia with Jana/JD....who would’ve predicted she would have 16 more pregnancies and children before she died?!! (Another set of twins and the Jubilee miscarriage make the number of pregnancies and living children equal). 

Obviously JB and Michelle are statistical outliers in their fertility AND their personal philosophies that inspired them to push their reproductive capabilities to the limit. 

I don’t think we have enough data on the daughters to fully predict their future as far as the baby game goes. But if they stay along the quiverfill line I definitely think double digits are possible (if not Michelle and Kelly Bates numbers). 

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5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think we forget that we met Michelle near the end of her reproductive life, and we are seeing the Duggar Daughters at the beginning. 

If you looked at Michelle’s first 3 pregnancies the odds wouldn’t look great either- Josh, a first trimester miscarriage and then a required c-section due to pre-eclampsia with Jana/JD....who would’ve predicted she would have 16 more pregnancies and children before she died?!! (Another set of twins and the Jubilee miscarriage make the number of pregnancies and living children equal). 

Obviously JB and Michelle are statistical outliers in their fertility AND their personal philosophies that inspired them to push their reproductive capabilities to the limit. 

I don’t think we have enough data on the daughters to fully predict their future as far as the baby game goes. But if they stay along the quiverfill line I definitely think double digits are possible (if not Michelle and Kelly Bates numbers). 

Very good point. And had Jessa delivered in the hospital, her pregnancies and deliveries could look pretty picture-perfect - she’d have already had an IV for quick administration of pitocin right away, which did resolve her bleeding both times - just after a delay in obtaining it. The public might know about it for desired drama/promo footage in her TLC delivery specials, but we could also easily know nothing about it because it would have likely been a post-delivery blip, as each event was able to be controlled and resolved with meds.

Joy’s first and one or both of Jill’s may have been similar with proper prenatal monitoring OR even just showing up at the hospital when in labor - breech positioning likely would have been quickly determined, and c-sections either planned or non-urgently-initiated when they presented at the hospital, avoiding the prolonged labors and those (possible) infant complications for Jill.

Edited by WalrusGirl · Reason: ETA paragraph re Joy and Jill
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8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think we forget that we met Michelle near the end of her reproductive life, and we are seeing the Duggar Daughters at the beginning. 

If you looked at Michelle’s first 3 pregnancies the odds wouldn’t look great either- Josh, a first trimester miscarriage and then a required c-section due to pre-eclampsia with Jana/JD... . . .

I don’t think we have enough data on the daughters to fully predict their future as far as the baby game goes. But if they stay along the quiverfill line I definitely think double digits are possible (if not Michelle and Kelly Bates numbers). 

Oh, I agree that we can't predict how many kids Jill, Jessa, and Joy are going to have. But what if Michelle hadn't had prenatal care from, you know, a real MD, during her pregnancies? Would pre-eclampsia have been diagnosed at all? Would she have had as many live births as she did? Of course, we don't know. But she did have medical care, AFAIK. 

2 hours ago, WalrusGirl said:

Very good point. And had Jessa delivered in the hospital, her pregnancies and deliveries could look pretty picture-perfect - she’d have already had an IV for quick administration of pitocin right away, which did resolve her bleeding both times - just after a delay in obtaining it. The public might know about it for desired drama/promo footage in her TLC delivery specials, but we could also easily know nothing about it because it would have likely been a post-delivery blip, as each event was able to be controlled and resolved with meds.

Joy’s first and one or both of Jill’s may have been similar with proper prenatal monitoring OR even just showing up at the hospital when in labor - breech positioning likely would have been quickly determined, and c-sections either planned or non-urgently-initiated when they presented at the hospital, avoiding the prolonged labors and those (possible) infant complications for Jill.

Well, this is kind of getting around to my point. With proper medical attention, Jessa wouldn't have hemorrhaged after two of her three deliveries, Jill would most likely have avoided complications even if she required C-sections, and Joy's first pregnancy would have been better managed all along. DIdn't she eat tons of junk food and gain a lot of weight? BTW, I am NOT saying she lost the second baby because of lack of prenatal care. Those things happen even with prenatal care and I am NOT playing a blame game over that tragedy. I AM wondering what the future holds if these women continue to handle pregnancy and delivery as they have been to date.

So, the argument here seems to be that these Duggar daughters are just as fertile as their mom, and it's just the lack of medical care that has been the difference.

I can't argue against that. BUT what if they don't get proper medical prenatal care going forward? Are all three of them going to continue to push out babies, these early pregnancy and delivery issues having been just hiccups on their way to double digit motherhood? Without any proper prenatal medical care and continued home deliveries? Lots of happy VBACs for Jill and Joy, and maybe some more immediate post-delivery ambulance rides to the hospital as needed for Jessa?

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that these three Daughters of Meechelle have so far presented a very bad case for no-doctor pregnancies and lay midwife home births. They've all made it to the hospital in time when things went bad, and maybe that's the plan going forward. It has worked out so far, and if it is, let's hope it continues to do so. 

Edited by Jeeves · Reason: clarity
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9 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

They've all made it to the hospital in time when things went bad, and maybe that's the plan going forward. It has worked out so far, and if it is, let's hope it continues to do so. 

Yes, let's definitely hope. 

It is, however, as we know, a stupid, wasteful, needlessly risky and, as far as I can tell, completely pointless "plan"! 

That's what really baffles me. Why why why? Are they mainly trying to save money? Demonstrate that they're....what? It's nuts. 

Is there some contingent of people out there online who are fervently admiring them for it? 

What???

Edited by Churchhoney
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11 hours ago, QuinnInND said:

Austin seems to really love Giddy. And Joy too. 

That last picture is cute. A dad kissing his son. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 11:09 PM, QuinnInND said:

Austin seems to really love Giddy. And Joy too. 

I think that these are sweet pictures. The bar is insanely low, though, when a father "seems to really love" his son is worth notice.

Joy and Austin are the only gen2 Duggars who are on record as approving of the Pearl "child training" methods. I hope that they have a happy family and that Joy and Austin are good parents, but I'm doubtful that Gideon will grow up in a loving and supportive home.

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Jill said that Joy was the "most conservative" of the older girls. This was before Austin arrived in the picture. From what I know about Joy's testimony, she was a Doubting Thomas in her teens, but *something* that she didn't reveal scared her straight. 😕

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12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Jill said that Joy was the "most conservative" of the older girls. This was before Austin arrived in the picture. From what I know about Joy's testimony, she was a Doubting Thomas in her teens, but *something* that she didn't reveal scared her straight. 😕

Where did Jill say that?

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2 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Where did Jill say that?

Social media, around the time Joy was courting/engaged. 

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11 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

I was thinking about the Duggar women and their husbands as I was working on dinner just now (I know, I know, a life is needed). I think in many ways Joy has a better shot at building a good relationship, even though she got married so young. Ben, Dreck, and JereME all seem to really want to be someone other than who they are. They also each seem to have chosen a Duggar for a wife for a purpose (idolizing the image on TV, prayer partner and wanting to ride coattails, latching onto "fame," respectively) other than just wanting to spend their lives together. They aspire to a particular image other than being the people they are. Austin, from what we've seen, is the most authentic in being who he is and seems content to be exactly that. Not someone I would want, sure, but for Joy, he seems a good match. It seems to me much easier to build a good relationship with someone who knows who they are and chooses you for who you are rather than to build a relationship with someone who wants to be someone else and to use you as a means to get there.

Yes, I don't get a fame whore vibe from Austin at all. I agree with the speculation previously that of all the Duggar marriages, this is the one most likely to have happened even if there'd never have been a TV show. 

Edited by Zella
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18 minutes ago, Tasya said:

Plus Kendra and Joe. They seem deep down suited. 

Yes, I actually always forget about them, but I could also see that happening on its own. I also don't get a fame whore vibe from her or Joe. 

Edited by Zella
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16 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes, I actually always forget about them, but I could also see that happening on its own. I also don't get a fame whore vibe from her or Joe. 

I don't get a fame whore vibe from any of the in-laws from the families that grew up fundie, except for Lauren (and Anna now, but she's been part of the Duggar family the longest of all the in-laws. She wasn't a fame whore in the beginning). 

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Is that Joy? I didn't recognize her at first. Looks completely different in that photo.

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27 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Is that Joy? I didn't recognize her at first. Looks completely different in that photo.

Same here. I thought it was someone else and had to look twice to recognize Joy.

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19 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

Same here. I thought it was someone else and had to look twice to recognize Joy.

I though that was Jessa for a sec then I thought since when does Jessa hold any babies other than her own. 

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2 hours ago, floridamom said:

Is that Joy? I didn't recognize her at first. Looks completely different in that photo.

I thought it was Hannie!

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I think she went the opposite of Jinger and tried to dye her hair black. I thought she had a scarf or hoodie on but it’s chunks of color. 

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No, if you go to the Instastory, you'll immediately know it's Joy just by the mushmouth. It's actually a cute video, and Giddyup is allowed to run off the blanket. 

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So Joy dyed her hair dark?  Some of the Sister Wives young women are doing the same thing, and I don't understand it at all.  It flatters none of them.  

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I did not see the video, so someone who did please chime in, but just based on the image I think it's weird lighting/ shadows. If that's a dye job, it's really terrible.

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Looks like the story expired. I think it was the lighting. Joy's hair was "normal" last week in the picture with the bros.

Edited by Sew Sumi
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9 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

I don't get a fame whore vibe from any of the in-laws from the families that grew up fundie, except for Lauren (and Anna now, but she's been part of the Duggar family the longest of all the in-laws. She wasn't a fame whore in the beginning). 

IMO, Austin’s family has clearly been attached to the Duggars I order to get more publicity/$$ for their camps. The marriage is part of that.

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3 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

IMO, Austin’s family has clearly been attached to the Duggars I order to get more publicity/$$ for their camps. The marriage is part of that.

True. As soon as Austin and Joy were engaged, she appeared on the camp's website.

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On 8/15/2019 at 11:12 AM, libgirl2 said:

That last picture is cute. A dad kissing his son. 

I also like #2, with his wee dimpled knuckles on display.

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2 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I did not see the video, so someone who did please chime in, but just based on the image I think it's weird lighting/ shadows. If that's a dye job, it's really terrible.

I saw the video and didn’t notice dark hair, so I think it’s bad picture- color

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40 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

IMO, Austin’s family has clearly been attached to the Duggars I order to get more publicity/$$ for their camps. The marriage is part of that.

Oh yeah I think Austin's family wanted to milk that for all it was worth and probably still do. I don't get that vibe from him, though. 

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16 hours ago, Zella said:

Oh yeah I think Austin's family wanted to milk that for all it was worth and probably still do. I don't get that vibe from him, though. 

Yes, I agree on both counts. Austin's family seized on using whatever they could squeeze out of their Duggar association. I don't feel that is Austin's motivation for marrying Joy the way I do with, say Dreck (though he bungled it badly) or JereME.

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Nice that they will have an actual house, hopefully for a good while.  Giddyup is darling.  I do hope they are living an independent life away from both sets of parents (and their money, aside from what THEY themselves earn from TLC.)  

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6 minutes ago, xwordfanatik said:

Nice that they will have an actual house, hopefully for a good while.  Giddyup is darling.  I do hope they are living an independent life away from both sets of parents (and their money, aside from what THEY themselves earn from TLC.)  

I hope that's true. My first thought was that they were building a house on the TTH property.

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6 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I hope that's true. My first thought was that they were building a house on the TTH property.

Oh, that would be a shame.  

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Are we sure Joy and Austin will live in this new house? Austin flips houses and they've spent time building a new house to sell before.

Edited by McManda
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I'm surprised Joy and Austin haven't moved into a permanent home. I can understand living in an RV temporarily (very temporarily), but they've been in it for what, over a year now? I wonder if Austin isn't turning that much of a profit on these flips. 

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I knew a couple that had a few losses like Joy's. After the first one, they moved. It seemed the main reason for the move was to get out of the house that held such bad memories. (Stayed in the same area.) They were able to have a child. 

Joy and Austin may like living in the RV for now. I expect when their family expands, they move into a house. While they're a family of three, it may be big enough. 

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At least Jill's and Josh's absences can be explained by the "we have our own schedules" umbrella, but where the heck is Jackson?? He was missing from the stupid "man camp" pictures, too. I'm worried about our favorite little photo bomber...

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"...have our own schedules"

Doing what?? A job? 

That's a joke.

2 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

 but where the heck is Jackson?? 

 a hot date?

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3 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

Doing what?? A job? 

Well, in Jill's case, playing her own "games," with Derrick...

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5 hours ago, xwordfanatik said:

Nice that they will have an actual house, hopefully for a good while.  Giddyup is darling.  I do hope they are living an independent life away from both sets of parents (and their money, aside from what THEY themselves earn from TLC.)  

Ha! I think they're still very enmeshed with both sets of parents.

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7 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Well, in Jill's case, playing her own "games," with Derrick...

Can we petition the mods to add a vomit icon? I feel like this forum is long overdue for one.

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13 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Ha! I think they're still very enmeshed with both sets of parents.

I agree.  Aren't they still helping out at Fort Rock?  

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