The Other Duggars: The Lost Girls and Amy

[BitterApple]

I can't resize screenshots to post here, but Kelly Bates wrote a nice tribute to Mary on her Instagram.

[Absolom]

According to the ALERT website graduation was May 31.  The Duggars are notorious for not posting on the day of.  Depending on what they did, they could have finished on May 24.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Absolom

[Spencer Hastings]

[Absolom]

The Duggars could have been in Basic 61 that ended May 24.  Here's a video that amused me.  It's very funny to me with their fake military pretend gravitas.  I thought I saw a couple Duggar faces at one point, but I'm not good with faces.

[Churchhoney]

This whole "pretending to be military" thing is nuts. 

[EmeraldGirl]

Are there any boys who haven’t gone to alert (I’m not capitalizing that nonsense)?

[Sew Sumi]

3 minutes ago, EmeraldGirl said:

Are there any boys who haven’t gone to alert (I’m not capitalizing that nonsense)?

Smuggar and JD never attended. I think it started with Joe. 

[Annb67]

Ooooh...pretend police badges...

[Marigold]

I think the 21 grandchildren is

19 bio Duggar kids  + Tyler + Amy = 21 grandchildren

I said this before and I will say it again, I like that they include Tyler in their official child count. 

I know that Jim Bob always wanted to get to 20 but I'm going to think something positive and believe that they are counting Tyler as their child because it's the right thing to do and it is kind.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 😉

[BigBingerBro]

Pickles is reporting that Grandma Mary was found floating in the pool at her home around 5:00 PM.  If that's true it could have been another stroke.

[Annb67]

1 hour ago, BigBingerBro said:

Pickles is reporting that Grandma Mary was found floating in the pool at her home around 5:00 PM.  If that's true it could have been another stroke.

Dear god... 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, BigBingerBro said:

Pickles is reporting that Grandma Mary was found floating in the pool at her home around 5:00 PM.  If that's true it could have been another stroke.

Oh my God, I wonder who found her? It's bad enough to find a relative dead peacefully in their bed, but floating in a pool? I can't even imagine.

I pray it was a heart attack and not a drowning. How awful.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, BigBingerBro said:

Pickles is reporting that Grandma Mary was found floating in the pool at her home around 5:00 PM.  If that's true it could have been another stroke.

What good does reporting this fact actually do?  I know the Duggars have abhorrent beliefs and have done some very questionable things, but there is no reason to broadcast this fact.  It doesn't add anything to the story and feels like an unnecessary low blow.

8 hours ago, Marigold said:

I think the 21 grandchildren is

19 bio Duggar kids  + Tyler + Amy = 21 grandchildren

I said this before and I will say it again, I like that they include Tyler in their official child count. 

I know that Jim Bob always wanted to get to 20 but I'm going to think something positive and believe that they are counting Tyler as their child because it's the right thing to do and it is kind.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 😉

My dead best friend's grandmother passed away last week.  Her obituary included the children my friend's widower has with his second wife as Nanny's great-grandchildren.  Every family has their own way of counting things, and I see no problem with JB and Michelle including the child they adopted in their passel of kids.

[Annb67]

One thing I have noticed is the difference in how many of the Duggars memorialized her. Most were filled with "She did our laundry, made us breakfast, yada yada". However Amy's was filled with what they actually DID TOGETHER. My heart hurts for Amy as she had a true relationship with her grandmother. As for the others.... go away.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Annb67

[FizzyPuff]

17 hours ago, lascuba said:

She was, apparently, a successful real estate broker and the owner of several properties. She had no financial reason to live with her son and his brood. She may not have wanted fame for herself, but she certainly worked to ensure fame for her family.

I did find it a bit weird when I found out she had all these properties that she lived with the Duggars but then I thought maybe they needed her.

I wonder if she knew about Josh's problems? It seems like something anyone with a brain would make them back off from trying to get her family famous. 

15 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

Still nothing from Jessa?

Jessa has just has a baby she can’t do anything 🙄

12 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Smuggar and JD never attended. I think it started with Joe. 

If anyone should have gone to alert it should’ve been Josh, I don’t think he’d be so up himself surrounded by boys just like him. Also would’ve been a good place to get him away from his sisters.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Puffin

[Portia]

I know we're all here to snark, but wow, this is really confirming my preference to not get into my losses and personal crises on social media. I don't want anyone judging whether I'm mourning correctly. Although I suppose not posting about your loved one's death gets you judged, too! It's the dilemma of the modern age.  😆

[Ohiopirate02]

9 minutes ago, Portia said:

I know we're all here to snark, but wow, this is really confirming my preference to not get into my losses and personal crises on social media. I don't want anyone judging whether I'm mourning correctly. Although I suppose not posting about your loved one's death gets you judged, too! It's the dilemma of the modern age.  😆

This is really the worst double-edge sword of the 21st century.  My aunt passed away back in February and my cousin chose to use Facebook Messenger and Facebook to get that piece of information out.  I don't blame her because she had a lot on her plate at that moment with all the funeral arrangements, work, taking care of her daughter, etc.  She did not have the emotional energy to contact each of my aunt's siblings and chose the easiest way to get this out.  My mother and her sisters were upset that my cousin did not actually pick up a phone to call at least one of them.  

[NotFundie]

13 hours ago, Absolom said:

The Duggars could have been in Basic 61 that ended May 24.  Here's a video that amused me.  It's very funny to me with their fake military pretend gravitas.  I thought I saw a couple Duggar faces at one point, but I'm not good with faces.

I found this both silly and creepy.  Did Gothard and his crew think they could build up a "Christian" paramilitary?

Of course, it's mostly a moneymaker for IBLP.  The first course is 9 weeks and costs $3,950.  There are two other courses they can take for "emergency response training" and they're $4,760 (10 weeks) and $3,635 (11 weeks).  If Jim Boob really wants to punish any of the boys by sending them away for longer - like he did Josiah - it hurts his wallet.

I recall seeing a teenage Josh with a shaved head but it might have been done without going to ALERT.

[Barb23]

12 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

This whole "pretending to be military" thing is nuts. 

Pretend everything.   Are they trying to compare themselves with the first day at the Naval Academy or other service academy?  I'm in Maryland so I am used to the newspaper articles & news blurbs of the first day at the Academy for the plebes each summer - leaving parents, getting haircuts, reading rules & regulations, etc.  That is what the beginning of the video reminded me of. (I only got through the first two minutes.)  BTW, a lot of those instructors need to cut back at the mess hall & step up their own calisthenics.  

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, NotFundie said:

I found this both silly and creepy.  Did Gothard and his crew think they could build up a "Christian" paramilitary?

Of course, it's mostly a moneymaker for IBLP.  The first course is 9 weeks and costs $3,950.  There are two other courses they can take for "emergency response training" and they're $4,760 (10 weeks) and $3,635 (11 weeks).  If Jim Boob really wants to punish any of the boys by sending them away for longer - like he did Josiah - it hurts his wallet.

I recall seeing a teenage Josh with a shaved head but it might have been done without going to ALERT.

I think Josh was sent to some other Gothard-run center -- some kind of "Christian" but really completely Bill-G-created counseling-for-the-wayward thing -- that was heavily bankrolled by another of Gothard's devotees, the Hobby Lobby guy. 

I think Alert has generally been presented as a "privilege" for young guys, mostly or entirely from Gothard families, to attend -- bolster their "manhood" while still hammering into them the necessity to do exactly what the patriarch tells you. 

But I believe the thing Josh attended was actually more of a literal penal colony type of operation.

Gothard tried his darnedest (and succeeded to some extent) to get his version of reform schools for teenagers established as a go-to facility for juvenile courts in various states to remand kids to. I don't know that any of them still exist (but I'm not sure they're all gone either). But for some years several state court systems, including Arkansas's, did use them.

Whereas Alert makes a big deal out of obeying your godly father who has the brains to be a Gothardite, these would have operated differently because they were intended to shape up teenagers from the general public -- i.e., teens from ebil non-Gothard and probably even non-patriarchal (shock! horror!) families!.

Various Gothard donors paid for their establishment around the country, with David Green of Hobby Lobby doing the deed in Arkansas, and some other places, I think. It was part of their attempt to spread the glories of Gothardism around the nation and the world to redeem our increasingly demonic time.   😁😈

Edited June 11, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Portia said:

I know we're all here to snark, but wow, this is really confirming my preference to not get into my losses and personal crises on social media. I don't want anyone judging whether I'm mourning correctly. Although I suppose not posting about your loved one's death gets you judged, too! It's the dilemma of the modern age.  😆

Agreed. I'm just not comfortable critiquing how someone chooses to handle mourning. A close relative of mine was killed in a really bad car accident earlier this year, so I was in their shoes not too long ago. I just can't be a dick about how any of them are handling this because I certainly hope nobody was doing that to me and my family. Everyone grieves differently, and the death of someone you love is a shock, even if expected. 

[truebluesmoky]

Jessa’a tribute to her grandmother:

 

The cynic in me wants to say that hers is later and longer for optimal attention getting. But I choose to believe that she was truly heartbroken, especially with all the postpartum hormones flowing through her right now, and needed a few days to write something that she felt would truly do her grandma justice. There is some really sweet stuff in there.

Edited June 11, 2019 by truebluesmoky

[Whyyouneedaname]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Oh my God, I wonder who found her? It's bad enough to find a relative dead peacefully in their bed, but floating in a pool? I can't even imagine.

I pray it was a heart attack and not a drowning. How awful.

I wonder if it was the house that Jill & Derick lived in, wasn't that considered the pool house? Is that house close in proximity to the TTH? How sad 😕 

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, truebluesmoky said:

Jessa’a tribute to her grandmother:

 

The cynic in me wants say that hers is later and longer for optimal attention getting. But I choose to believe that she was truly heartbroken, especially with all the postpartum hormones flowing through her right now, and needed a few days to write something that she felt would truly do her grandma justice. There is some really sweet stuff in there.

So the first I noticed is Jessa says "the great-grandbabies coming this fall and winter". Winter? Who is due in Winter? Amy is due in October, and Kendra, Joy, Lauren and Anna are due in November. Either Jessa forgot when the seasons start or more great-grands on the way.  

[3 is enough]

I have to say that I am not pleased that Pickles chose to share the somewhat gruesome details of Mary's death.  I understand that she dislikes the family immensely, but I think that was totally unnecessary.

The family chose not to publicize the details of her death, and I think that should be respected.  I realize that a certain loss of privacy comes with the choice to be featured on reality tv, but they still have the right to choose which details of their lives they wish to be made public.

I  feel that Grandma was stripped of some dignity by having this info made public.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

3 hours ago, Barb23 said:

This whole "pretending to be military" thing is nuts. 

Well they pretend to be Christians so...

[Spencer Hastings]

Jessa’s post reads like grief through word vomit.  She probably thought of a thing or two to say about Grandma Duggar but it all seemed important so she just kept going.  Beautifully done.

I personally can’t bring myself to post anything when I lose family members.  Feeling like you are expected to say something must suck.  

Edited June 11, 2019 by Spencer Hastings

[JocelynCavanaugh]

When a notable person passes away, people are going to be curious about how. I understand that there are different opinions on what counts as "enough" information, but I've always thought that at least a brief allusion to "how" can deter worse speculation and intrusion.

A well-known travel blogger died suddenly last month, and until her family confirmed that it was probably due to an asthma attack, people were guessing overdose, suicide, drunk drowning, etc. There shouldn't be shame in how anyone dies, but keeping tight-lipped about the manner while sharing news of the passing is bound to invite speculation. Survivors can choose to share how ever much or little they like, but they can't stop human nature. Death is the great unknown and many of us assuage our trepidation by ruminating on the circumstances of others'.

"Found floating in the pool" is shocking and a bit more vivid than I was expecting, and probably not the Duggars' preferred phrasing, but it can also help explain the reactions they may be exhibiting. I agree with others who have said they give a wide berth to anyone for how they deal with grief. Just because many here don't like the family or hate their beliefs or lifestyle doesn't mean the Duggars are faking grief and didn't actually love Mary. They have a very different worldview from mainstream culture -- that's their whole schtick, after all -- but they are human beings and I'm almost positive they have souls. Yes, even Jim Bob! I've been pleasantly surprised to see so many comments giving them some grace on how they're reacting.

[Zella]

One of the things that sticks out to me is it seems like the Duggar kids probably had more normal, small, everyday moments and one-on-one experiences with their grandma than with their parents, whether it's going shopping with her or watching The Price is Right (which I totally did with my Granny as a kid) with her. I'm sure that is something that endeared her to them.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Zella

[jcbrown]

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

One of the things that sticks out to me is it seems like the Duggar kids probably had more normal, small, everyday moments and one-on-one experiences with their grandma than with their parents, whether it's going shopping with her or watching The Price is Right (which I totally did with my Granny as a kid) with her. I'm sure that is something that endeared her to them.

I suspect this is exactly right. Several of the Duggarlings' posts describe Grandma paying attention to them and knowing them as individuals, something that was scarce at best from their parents, from what we've seen on the show.

18 minutes ago, not you again said:

Whan I first read that she was found floating in the pool, my mind went in another direction, as in, she was floating in a nice comfy pool lounge chair, and died.

I will choose to imagine this scenario.

Edited June 11, 2019 by jcbrown
punctuation does not cost extra

[Westiepeach]

38 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

I suspect this is exactly right. Several of the Duggarlings' posts describe Grandma paying attention to them and knowing them as individuals, something that was scarce at best from their parents, from what we've seen on the show.

I will choose to imagine this scenario.

That is a much more peaceful scenario. That is what I shall choose as well. 

[GeeGolly]

I think in real life most are very accepting of the various ways folks use SM when speaking of folks who are ill or passed away, with little to no judgement passed.

I think with the Duggars and this site in particular we judge them on everything - really everything. Mainly because they tend to judge various things about us and the choices we make and all while double talking and saying they judge no one. 

Being a public person brings with it a lot of perks. Enough perks that the adult Duggars continue to stay in the public eye. Being public has many downsides as well. For the Duggars the good seems to outweigh the bad.

I'm guessing that any responses to their actual posts are pleasant and supportive. If they do read this site at all, I would hope they're smart enough to stay off it for a few days and skip a few pages.

[Spencer Hastings]

Tyler is the 21st grandchild.

[awaken]

On 6/10/2019 at 9:22 PM, Churchhoney said:

This whole "pretending to be military" thing is nuts. 

I feel that way about Boy Scouts. Boys and men playing military with official uniforms and convoluted rules and all. Don’t hate me. 

[Albanyguy]

18 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Did Gothard and his crew think they could build up a "Christian" paramilitary?

I think that's exactly what they hoped to achieve. Fortunately, they're too incompetent to reach their dreams of world domination.

[galaxychaser]

On 6/10/2019 at 9:22 PM, Churchhoney said:

This whole "pretending to be military" thing is nuts. 

Scientology sea org is nuts too.

[Churchhoney]

11 minutes ago, galaxychaser said:

Scientology sea org is nuts too.

Apparently when somebody invents a religion for the purpose of bilking others for fealty and money, the fact that that person is nuts tends to reveal itself through details of said religion.    ;  )

[madpsych78]

Reading Jill's thread about how Jill (and Jana and Lauren) are being slammed by media for their emotionally immature comments about Grandma's passing. Jill in particular used emojis and a lot of exclamation points in her post as well as a "link in bio."

I have to say I thought some of the Duggar children came off better than others in articulating their thoughts about Grandma on the internet. I enjoyed both Jessa's and Amy's posts in particular, but I also liked Joy's post because of referencing The Price is Right. It's so simple, but it was still endearing. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by madpsych78

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

Reading Jill's thread about how Jill (and Jana and Lauren) are being slammed by media for their emotionally immature comments about Grandma's passing. Jill in particular used emojis and a lot of exclamation points in her post as well as a "link in bio."

I have to say I thought some of the Duggar children came off better than others in articulating their thoughts about Grandma on the internet. I enjoyed both Jessa's and Amy's posts in particular, but I also liked Joy's post because of referencing The Price is Right. It's so simple, but it was still endearing. 

Although I was surprised the Duggar kids were allowed to watch The Price is Right. They used to have a lot of models in bathing suits/defrauding clothes. I'm surprised JB and Michelle were okay with it.  

[galaxychaser]

7 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Although I was surprised the Duggar kids were allowed to watch The Price is Right. They used to have a lot of models in bathing suits/defrauding clothes. I'm surprised JB and Michelle were okay with it.  

J and M don’t care what kids watched on tv as long as the kids weren’t around. Anyway J and M were doing hey hey hey all the time for next blessing.

[GeeGolly]

Apparently Mary's death is being investigated by the Tontitown police department. I wonder if that's standard operating procedure or if it was a tad suspicious like a slip and fall rather than passing away while using the pool.

That has to make it much harder for the grieving family if her home is now being treated like a crime scene.

[jcbrown]

Under their screwed up patriarchal bullshittery belief system, did Grandma Mary revert to Boob's "umbrella of authority" after her husband died? Can't have the poor wimmen folk being accountable for themselves.

[sixlets]

I was heartbroken reading Amy's post.  I was the only grandchild for my maternal grandma, and she lived with us my whole life.  Losing her was the greatest pain I had ever known until I lost my dad.  Looking at the picture Anna posted from Christmas and comparing it to the pic with Ivy, you can see the decline in Mary's health.  I hope for her sake, and that of her baby, Amy is kind to herself in the coming days and weeks.

Alert should be fined for copyright infringement when it comes to their little ceremony.  The US military came up with that stuff first, and they do it much better.

And Lauren sweetie?  Tend to your husband's needs and grief.  Take your 2-hour old baby bump and sit your ass down. 

[doodlebug]

10 minutes ago, not you again said:

Unattended deaths usually go through some level of inquiry.

As a general rule, any death that occurs outside of a hospital or within 24 hours of admission to one is considered a 'coroner's case' which means the coroner needs to investigate the circumstances, make a ruling as to the cause and sign the death certificate.  The only exception is for someone known to be terminally ill whose own physician is willing to sign as to cause of death.

Since Mary apparently died at home, there will have to be a coroner's inquiry.  It doesn't mean much.  She was elderly and had very significant medical problems in the past 6 months.  The coroner will probably examine her body grossly looking for signs of trauma.  If she's got a suspicious head wound or something, the coroner may check her lungs to see if she drowned or if she was already not breathing when she hit the water.  Even if she did drown, unless there are signs of foul play, the coroner will likely rule that she stumbled and fell accidentally or, if there are signs on autopsy, that she had a stroke or heart attack and fell into the pool due to that.   The story is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Odds are, she died a natural death or suffered a tragic accident.  

If there are no signs of foul play, the coroner may ask the family whether they want an autopsy or not.  My dad died 16 years ago. He literally sat down in a chair, closed his eyes and was gone.  He was pronounced dead in the ER and the coroner was called because he didn't have a known terminal illness.   The coroner called me ('they told me you were a doctor').  He asked for my impression; I told him it was probably a heart attack; strong family history and my dad was overweight and taking blood pressure meds.  Did I suspect any sort of foul play?  Nope.  Did the family want an autopsy?  Nope.  Case closed.

Edited June 12, 2019 by doodlebug

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

As a general rule, any death that occurs outside of a hospital or within 24 hours of admission to one is considered a 'coroner's case' which means the coroner needs to investigate the circumstances, make a ruling as to the cause and sign the death certificate.  The only exception is for someone known to be terminally ill whose own physician is willing to sign as to cause of death.

Since Mary apparently died at home, there will have to be a coroner's inquiry.  It doesn't mean much.  She was elderly and had very significant medical problems in the past 6 months.  The coroner will probably examine her body grossly looking for signs of trauma.  If she's got a suspicious head wound or something, the coroner may check her lungs to see if she drowned or if she was already not breathing when she hit the water.  Even if she did drown, unless there are signs of foul play, the coroner will likely rule that she stumbled and fell accidentally or, if there are signs on autopsy, that she had a stroke or heart attack and fell into the pool due to that.   The story is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Odds are, she died a natural death or suffered a tragic accident.  

Yup. They did this with both my parents, who died at home. No police involvement at all though. Just the autopsy. The article I read said the police were investigating.

[Fostersmom]

13 minutes ago, not you again said:

Unattended deaths usually go through some level of inquiry.

Yep. My dad was 46 when he died, very unexpectedly, at home alone. I was told he had stayed home sick that day, he thought he had the flu. A blood clot when to his heart. Turned out he had been in a car accident fairly shortly before hand and the best they could say, it was from the accident. My grandparents were pretty well connected in our county and had to make a few calls to get the coroner to release the report and body in a rush so the funeral could be held without delay. 

[ginger90]

There would have to be cooperation between those who were called to respond. The first responders would render aid, then secure the scene. Police and the coroner would be called. Evidence would be gathered, any witnesses interviewed.  I don’t think there’s anything odd about this in the case of what is being reported regarding grandma Duggar’s death. 

[doodlebug]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Yup. They did this with both my parents, who died at home. No police involvement at all though. Just the autopsy. The article I read said the police were investigating.

The coroner is technically part of law enforcement since he/she rules on homicides.  In addition, the police were probably called to the scene and prepared a report on what they found including signs of homicide etc.  The coroner will use that report in determining cause of death.  That could be the 'police involvement' we're hearing about.

Not to beat this dead horse, but, when my nephew drowned, the coroners report included notes taken from the written reports made by the police and EMT's who were first on the scene.  My nephew's death was not witnessed, so they relied on the observation after the fact.  He, ironically, drowned in a swimming pool when he was 5.  He was playing at a friend's house and the two kids were supposed to be out on the patio, but they wandered to a nearby pool, climbed a short chain link fence and apparently fell in.  My nephew drowned and the other boy was revived and suffered severe brain damage.  His mental age was 2 months about a year after the accident.  I doubt he's still alive.

[Lisa418722]

My dad had brain cancer and was in Hospice when he died, and the doctor still asked if we wanted an autopsy.  No, we didn't.  But it makes sense there is going to be more of an investigation/inquest with Grandma Mary's death.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Lisa418722

[Zella]

Just to chime in with everyone else, I can definitely see why they'd be investigating as a matter of routine.

I didn't say this when I first heard the detail about Mary being found in the pool. But I had a neighbor who was found in one of his cattle watering troughs. They believe he had a heart attack, which caused him to collapse in the trough, and then drowned in it because he didn't have the strength to pull himself up. Just terrible--he was a super nice guy. I know his wife and son were really horrified at the circumstances, and there was quite a bit of law enforcement brought out to secure the scene and as a matter of procedure.