Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[lascuba]

8 hours ago, Spazamanaz said:

I had read somewhere that Josh cornered Jinger in the laundry room and had fondled her. And if this is true, then JB and Michelle lied when they said it was while the girls were asleep and they didn't even know what the perv did to them. I don't know if it's true, I can't even remember where I read it. I think it may have been in some police reports, or a report of some sort. 

It's true--it was in the police report. During the Megyn Kelly interview, JB said is was mostly touching over the clothes and then under the clothes "but only for a couple of seconds," he was technically being honest about what happened while completely trivializing all of it. THAT is why it was Jill and Jessa in that interview--because they could honestly say they don't even remembered Josh touching them so it was no big deal and people need to stop criticizing Josh and their parents. There would have been no way for them to downplay Josh's behavior if Jinger described being attacked in the laundry room. Probably not even Megyn would have let that one slide.

52 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

I do think that the sin is sin mentality of the cult is what makes it really hard to know who knew what and when and to judge accordingly. When the molestation scandal first broke, I believe Anna said that she always knew because it was part of Josh's "testimony" at a semi-public event and she and her father were impressed by his faith and story of "redemption". But I've always found it hard to believe that any sane girl of 18-19 and especially the parent who controls every aspect of her life, including romance and marriage, would actually have said "Molested five children but repented? That's the godly man for me!" 

What I suspect really happened was that Josh did testify about sexual sinning, and the devil's fortress and all that, but in a way that made it sound like it was minor (glimpse of porn, unchaperoned kissing, masturbation) and when the real truth came out much later, Anna doubled down along with the rest of the family. 

I think there was also mention of JB, Michelle and Josh sitting down with the Kellers and Anna to tell them what had happened. In the end, though, I'm not sure it would have mattered, precisely because of their "sin is sin" mentality. Everyone's choices would have been the same.

[Tikichick]

On 5/18/2021 at 2:08 AM, mittsigirl said:

Between reading so much here and stories posted elsewhere, my brain is getting confused with all of the information I am storing in it. I was wondering if JB and Michelle have seen the images Josh was found to have on his computer/phone?

 

21 hours ago, Absolom said:

They're in an odd situation.  Technically they are not involved in the court case and would have no valid reason to be in possession of or view the material so wouldn't it be a crime if they did?  

Josh is an adult by law and generally JB and Michelle would have no involvement in his case.  We know JB can't allow that, but it's how it would usually be handled.  

Josh's lawyers don't even have unfettered access to the images.   It's handled in an extremely, extremely controlled way in order not to disseminate the material further.

[Scarlett45]

19 hours ago, sue450 said:

oprah was supposed to have the whole duggar family on in 2006...... she got a tip the day before about josh molesting his 4 sisters and the baby sitter  and that the parents (michele and jim bob) had hid this info.....she canceled and had her company call child services............the tipper apparently knew the duggars and borrowed a book from them one day....inside the book was a letter talking about josh molesting his sisters and the baby sitter......It is like joshs  molesting his sisters and baby sitter was meant to come out...........TLC ran their first duggar special  2 years later so how would they  NOT know about this?

Wasnt the first Duggar Special in 2004? It was discovery health then which is under the TLC channel umbrella. I remember because I was in college and Michelle was pregnant with Jackson. “14 Children & Pregnant Again”. 
 

TLC def knew about it all. 

 

5 hours ago, satrunrose said:

What I suspect really happened was that Josh did testify about sexual sinning, and the devil's fortress and all that, but in a way that made it sound like it was minor (glimpse of porn, unchaperoned kissing, masturbation) and when the real truth came out much later, Anna doubled down along with the rest of the family. 

I’m a heathen, but when I first started following the Duggars this is what I thought. I assumed Josh got caught CONSENTUALLY with another girl hooking up in a closet and had to repent. I could tell he was a pompous ass and the other older kids didn’t like him, but even to my jaded heathen self I never thought that meant he was an abuser or would sexual assault his little sisters. 
 

I think they made it sound that way on purpose. 

[madpsych78]

1 hour ago, lascuba said:

It's true--it was in the police report. During the Megyn Kelly interview, JB said is was mostly touching over the clothes and then under the clothes "but only for a couple of seconds," he was technically being honest about what happened while completely trivializing all of it. THAT is why it was Jill and Jessa in that interview--because they could honestly say they don't even remembered Josh touching them so it was no big deal and people need to stop criticizing Josh and their parents. There would have been no way for them to downplay Josh's behavior if Jinger described being attacked in the laundry room. Probably not even Megyn would have let that one slide.

Maybe that was why Jill and Jessa were selected to go on the Megyn Kelly interview. We all thought it was because they were both already married - while that could still be the case, it may also have been because they were subject to the relatively "tamer" molestation (touching while they were asleep, over/under clothes, etc.) compared to Jinger and Joy. Thus Jill and Jessa could be the "spokespeople" victims who could attest that this was all "no big deal," because it would probably be less of a stretch for them to say so than for Jinger and Joy. 

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

 

Josh's lawyers don't even have unfettered access to the images.   It's handled in an extremely, extremely controlled way in order not to disseminate the material further.

Josh's attorneys have been shown the videos and images.  No doubt about that.  You have to allow them access to it per the rules of discovery.  However, when we generate a report for the defense, we strip out the images, leaving the metadata and file info (size, path, hash, time and date stamps).  The attorneys normally view the videos and images in a law enforcement facility and are not left alone with them.  I can't imagine allowing a defendant's parents in the room to look at them.  Josh would probably be allowed as it's evidence against him.  It would be hard to say JB and Mechelle were aiding in the defense's case and needed to be there.

Edited May 19, 2021 by hathorlive
spelling matters

[Tikichick]

25 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Josh's attorneys have been shown the videos and images.  No doubt about that.  You have to allow them access to it per the rules of discovery.  However, when we generate a report for the defense, we stripe out the images, leaving the metadata and file info (size, path, hash, time and date stamps).  The attorneys normally view the videos and images in a law enforcement facility and are not left alone with them.  I can't imagine allowing a defendant's parents in the room to look at them.  Josh would probably be allowed as it's evidence against him.  It would be hard to say JB and Mechelle were aiding in the defense's case and needed to be there.

IMO Josh's attorneys would need to file a motion before the Judge and have the Judge give an order granting permission for anyone, even a hired expert, to have access to the raw explicit evidence.   I can't see what they could plead before the court and get approval for JB and M to have any ability to go along.

[hathorlive]

27 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

IMO Josh's attorneys would need to file a motion before the Judge and have the Judge give an order granting permission for anyone, even a hired expert, to have access to the raw explicit evidence.   I can't see what they could plead before the court and get approval for JB and M to have any ability to go along.

I've been doing this for 17 years and I've never had a judge order me to show the images to the attorneys.  They have the right to see what their client is charged with.  All they had to do was schedule a time to come view the images, preferably during work hours. This includes their forensic expert.  We have relationships with most experts, and they normally showed up without the attorneys.  We were ordered to work over the July 4th weekend by a federal judge, in order to let the defense expert work with the forensic image (aka copies of the suspect's digital devices).  But it was never a big production for the most part.  And this applies to both state and federal cases that I had.

Edited May 19, 2021 by hathorlive

[GeeGolly]

13 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I've been doing this for 17 years and I've never had a judge order me to show the images to the attorneys.  They have the right to see what their client is charged with.  All they had to do was schedule a time to come view the images, preferably during work hours. This includes their forensic expert.  We have relationships with most experts, and they normally showed up without the attorneys.  We were ordered to work over the July 4th weekend by a federal judge, in order to let the defense expert work with the forensic image (aka copies of the suspect's digital devices).  But it was never a big production for the most part.  And this applies to both state and federal cases that I had.

Thanks Hath. How lucky we are to have our own 'expert witness'.

[Minivanessa]

The Duggars had been featured on at least one TLC special before their proposed 2006 appearance on Oprah. That was "14 Kids and Pregnant Again," which featured the birth of Jackson (DOB May 23, 2004). 

 

[Tikichick]

57 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I've been doing this for 17 years and I've never had a judge order me to show the images to the attorneys.  They have the right to see what their client is charged with.  All they had to do was schedule a time to come view the images, preferably during work hours. This includes their forensic expert.  We have relationships with most experts, and they normally showed up without the attorneys.  We were ordered to work over the July 4th weekend by a federal judge, in order to let the defense expert work with the forensic image (aka copies of the suspect's digital devices).  But it was never a big production for the most part.  And this applies to both state and federal cases that I had.

It's very heavily controlled here.   The way it gets argued about you almost expect that when they actually show up at the sheriff's office or the police department that warning alerts might go off and there would be an announcement over the pa system about going to defcon one or something.

[Albanyguy]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

 I can't see what they could plead before the court and get approval for JB and M to have any ability to go along.

Agreed. And I can't imagine Michelle wanting to see them or Jim Bob allowing her to. I could see Jim Bob wanting to see them as a means of exerting his control ("I'm Big Daddy, I'm paying the bills and I get whatever I want!"). On the other hand, I can easily imagine him not wanting to see them. As long as he and Michelle remain in ignorance, they can continue to downplay and minimize the horror of what Josh has done.
 

[Heathen]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I’m a heathen, but when I first started following the Duggars this is what I thought. I assumed Josh got caught CONSENTUALLY with another girl hooking up in a closet and had to repent. I could tell he was a pompous ass and the other older kids didn’t like him, but even to my jaded heathen self I never thought that meant he was an abuser or would sexual assault his little sisters. 
 

I think they made it sound that way on purpose. 

I thought exactly the same. No WAY did I ever think Smuggar Duggar, the painfully geeky pompous fundie boy, was a sexual predator. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Heathen

[3 is enough]

I never liked Megyn Kelly, but I was hoping she would live up to her reputation and really grill Jim Bob and Michelle in that interview.  I was so disappointed that she went so easy on them.  

[Jeanne222]

2 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

I never liked Megyn Kelly, but I was hoping she would live up to her reputation and really grill Jim Bob and Michelle in that interview.  I was so disappointed that she went so easy on them.  

I think her hands were tied with the contract and what had been agreed upon to ask and answer!    They had everything to do with that interview.

[GeeGolly]

I'm not sure hardballing survivors of sexual abuse is ever the correct thing to do.

[jcbrown]

18 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not sure hardballing survivors of sexual abuse is ever the correct thing to do.

I think @3 is enough was saying Megyn Kelly should have gone after Boob and MEchelle more forcefully, not the survivors.

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

Agreed. And I can't imagine Michelle wanting to see them or Jim Bob allowing her to. I could see Jim Bob wanting to see them as a means of exerting his control ("I'm Big Daddy, I'm paying the bills and I get whatever I want!"). On the other hand, I can easily imagine him not wanting to see them. As long as he and Michelle remain in ignorance, they can continue to downplay and minimize the horror of what Josh has done.
 

Honesty, all they need to do is read a description of the CP he accessed, imo. It’s that disturbing and heinous. 😢

[GeeGolly]

27 minutes ago, jcbrown said:

I think @3 is enough was saying Megyn Kelly should have gone after Boob and MEchelle more forcefully, not the survivors.

Maybe in a separate interview, but not during a family interview. Still a tough situation because JB & M are parents of both the perpetrator and the survivors. 

[jcbrown]

10 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Maybe in a separate interview, but not during a family interview. Still a tough situation because JB & M are parents of both the perpetrator and the survivors. 

Oh I agree. And I thought they were in a separate interview but maybe I am mis-remembering.

[3 is enough]

I should have been more specific.  I meant that JIM BOB and MICHELLE should have received the full Megyn Kelly "barracuda" treatment, not Jill and Jessa.  Honestly, I did not like the fact that they were even put in that situation. They should not have had to speak at all.

 

[sue450]

On 5/18/2021 at 8:47 PM, Spazamanaz said:

I had read somewhere that Josh cornered Jinger in the laundry room and had fondled her. And if this is true, then JB and Michelle lied when they said it was while the girls were asleep and they didn't even know what the perv did to them. I don't know if it's true, I can't even remember where I read it. I think it may have been in some police reports, or a report of some sort. 

joy was the one in the laundry room she was only 5 years old he had her on his lap while he diddled  her......some one  filed FOIA  (freedom of information)  papers and the  report  with all the details had to be released, names were blacked out but you just had to look up the ages of the duggars at the time this happened to figure out  which sisters were molested

Edited May 20, 2021 by sue450
spelling

[sue450]

20 hours ago, jcbrown said:

Oh I agree. And I thought they were in a separate interview but maybe I am mis-remembering.

no the parents were on the same show  the same time with the 2 daughters being interviewed by megan kelly

[Heathen]

40 minutes ago, sue450 said:

joy was the one in the laundry room she was only 5 years old he had her on his lap while he diddled  her......some one  filed FOIA  (freedom of information)  papers and the  report  with all the details had to be released, names were blacked out but you just had to look up the ages of the duggars at the time this happened to figure out  which sisters were molested

IIRC, Jinger was assaulted in the laundry room. Joy was assaulted while sitting on Smuggar's lap in the presence of other children. 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Heathen said:

IIRC, Jinger was assaulted in the laundry room. Joy was assaulted while sitting on Smuggar's lap in the presence of other children. 

Yes that is correct according to the FOIA report and public statements. 

[SMama]

4 minutes ago, Heathen said:

IIRC, Jinger was assaulted in the laundry room. Joy was assaulted while sitting on Smuggar's lap in the presence of other children. 

My recollection is Joy was sitting on Smuggar’s lap while he was reading a story to her and other kids. Jinger was assaulted in the laundry room. 

[lascuba]

40 minutes ago, sue450 said:

no the parents were on the same show  the same time with the 2 daughters being interviewed by megan kelly

It was the same show but they were interviewed separately.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

My recollection is Joy was sitting on Smuggar’s lap while he was reading a story to her and other kids. Jinger was assaulted in the laundry room. 

Yes @SMama and @Heathen that is what happened.

@Spazamanaz JB and Michelle did lie or "back track", they have often covered up, bent the truth or lied to protect JOSH (and themselves, and their image). Josh and how things effect him was always their number 1 priority, I think the well being of the girls was thought about, but it was the last on the list. I think this was a prime example of Josh being shown that the world (or at least the Duggar household) revolved around him. 

[xtwheeler]

On 5/19/2021 at 12:25 PM, 3 is enough said:

I never liked Megyn Kelly, but I was hoping she would live up to her reputation and really grill Jim Bob and Michelle in that interview.  I was so disappointed that she went so easy on them.  

They're evangelicals. She has a vested interest in going soft on them. 

[Westiepeach]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes @SMama and @Heathen that is what happened.

@Spazamanaz JB and Michelle did lie or "back track", they have often covered up, bent the truth or lied to protect JOSH (and themselves, and their image). Josh and how things effect him was always their number 1 priority, I think the well being of the girls was thought about, but it was the last on the list. I think this was a prime example of Josh being shown that the world (or at least the Duggar household) revolved around him. 

JB and Michelle are disgusting, just disgusting.

I hope Karma bites them, and bites them hard. 🤬

Edited May 20, 2021 by Westiepeach

[BigBingerBro]

19 Kids & Counting: Anna & The Kids Visit Josh in Home Confinement

Josh Duggar’s guardian called 911 & claimed family ‘no longer feels safe’ one day after disgraced TV star moved in

[BigBingerBro]

Jim Bob Duggar is Allegedly Building a Fence to Protect Josh Duggar

[galaxygirl76]

1 minute ago, BigBingerBro said:

Jim Bob Duggar is Allegedly Building a Fence to Protect Josh Duggar

He'll do a lot of people a favor if he builds it around Josh.

[Heathen]

I'll believe it when it comes from reputable media sources, not the Sun or a website whose headline says, "Anna takes their six children to visit his father." 

[WinnieWinkle]

6 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I'll believe it when it comes from reputable media sources, not the Sun or a website whose headline says, "Anna takes their six children to visit his father." 

This is The Sun...

The article about the Rebers stated they live in a "massive mansion".  I am reserving judgement on that.  3 bathrooms, carpeting and a porch do not make a house a "massive mansion" but I could be wrong.

Edited May 20, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[ginger90]

Looks like Austin was reading this article that was posted above:

https://screenrant.com/19-kids-counting-josh-duggar-confinement-visitation-anna-children/

[IndianPaintbrush]

39 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Josh Duggar’s guardian called 911 & claimed family ‘no longer feels safe’ one day after disgraced TV star moved in

Rather misleading headline. The 911 call appears to have been about a possible trespasser on their property, not anything Joshley did.

[Gigi43]

22 minutes ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

Rather misleading headline. The 911 call appears to have been about a possible trespasser on their property, not anything Joshley did.

 

Yeah, it was total clickbait to make the reader think Josh directly did something to make them feel unsafe. I don't trust the Sun but it's entirely possible the Reber's weren't prepared for the spotlight taking Josh in would bring. Mrs. Reber didn't even seem to know the charges until court. 

[JoanArc]

 I know where there is already a place with a nice tall fence that will protect Josh.

Jail. 

[Clawdel]

Tonight, defense attorney Scott Reisch will be on his YouTube Channel Crime Talk to talk about the 19 Charges and Counting

I love his channel. He always has an ongoing contest for Dumb Criminal of the Day and the award is a Crime Talk Mug. 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Clawdel
additional info

[emmawoodhouse]

WOACB petitioned for the 911 call. Here it is in its entirety. The phone number and address have been erased. Bottom line: A car (turns out it was from the Daily Fail) was at the end of their driveway, and Mrs. Reber said she didn't feel safe. 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[BitterApple]

What the hell did these people expect when they agreed to foster a (quasi) celebrity child-molester? 

I wonder what else is going on that hasn't been reported. Mrs. Reber had that huffy, frustrated tone one gets when they're two seconds away from losing their shit. Her husband is an idiot.

Edited May 20, 2021 by BitterApple

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

What the hell did these people expect when they agreed to foster a (quasi) celebrity child-molester? 

I wonder what else is going on that hasn't been reported. Mrs. Reber had that huffy, frustrated tone one gets when they're two seconds away from losing their shit. Her husband is an idiot.

Everything Josh allegedly did could be true, but that still doesn’t give people the right to harass them. So I think her irritation was that they told the car to leave and it left and came back. 

[3girlsforus]

1 hour ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

Rather misleading headline. The 911 call appears to have been about a possible trespasser on their property, not anything Joshley did.

I agree - not only that it says he's living in a "massive mansion' but then describe a 4 bed 3 bath home with 1 story. Sure I guess if every room is enormous it could be a massive mansion but it sounds like a house to me. Not to mention the detail they give of the house and the driveway (materials it's made of etc) makes me think maybe it was the Sun's reporter that was the trespasser. No quality reporting here.  

[Churchhoney]

FWIW, youtube lawyer Scott Reisch explains how Joshley's lawyers are likely to explain his plea-vs-roll-the-trial-dice decision to him, based on how federal sentencing guidelines work. Spoiler: he thinks that if Joshley's guilty, he'd better plead. 

Anyway, pretty clear description of the various factors that will go into the judge's sentencing decision in this case.

Another spoiler: based on the charges, he estimates that if he's found guilty at trial, he may get 9 to 10-and-a-half years. And if he pleads guilty, it'd be 7-and-a-half to 9. 

I saw a lot of seven and a half to nine year sentences for guys with the same two charges when I looked up this kind of case on the Western District of Ark. website, so I'm guessing a lot of guys have pled guilty there in the past couple of years. (and, as with Josh, most of them didn't have any prior criminal convictions for anything...)

This discussion happens in the first half of this video -- 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Churchhoney

[emmawoodhouse]

7 minutes ago, 3girlsforus said:

I agree - not only that it says he's living in a "massive mansion' but then describe a 4 bed 3 bath home with 1 story. Sure I guess if every room is enormous it could be a massive mansion but it sounds like a house to me. Not to mention the detail they give of the house and the driveway (materials it's made of etc) makes me think maybe it was the Sun's reporter that was the trespasser. No quality reporting here.  

The Sun wasn't parked at the end of the driveway. It was the Daily Fail.

[drafan]

3 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

He'll do a lot of people a favor if he builds it around Josh.

So the devil's out there building another fortress?????

[Westiepeach]

32 minutes ago, drafan said:

So the devil's out there building another fortress?????

Dang it, Satan! Don’t you know the price of lumber these days?

[awaken]

6 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

They're evangelicals. She has a vested interest in going soft on them. 

Explain, please?  Is megyn an evangelical, or do you mean the media in general will paint them in a favorable light?

[emmawoodhouse]

5 minutes ago, awaken said:

Explain, please?  Is megyn an evangelical, or do you mean the media in general will paint them in a favorable light?

As of 2016, Megyn identified as a life-long Catholic.

[Quilt Fairy]

With the caveat that these are tabloids so take everything with a healthy grain of salt, one thing doesn't make sense to me.  I thought that one of the conditions was that the Rebers not receive any compensation.  I don't see how JB building a fence around their property would not be considered compensation.

The lawyer's talk was very interesting.  Seeing Josh's severity level go from 22 down to 20, then back up to 22 and eventually up to 31 was funny, in a disgusting sort of way.