S06.E04: Season 6, Episode 4

[abbyzenn]

I loved the luncheon scene with Gwen.  It showed that none of the family (other than Tom of course) really knew Sybil.  In the episode when Tom and Sybil announce their intentions Cora says something like "have we forgotten who she really is" and this showed that that didn't know her.  Loved TOm's facial expressions while Gwen was talking about Sybil - showed that for him Sybil was his one true love.  Also loved Robert's expression when Tom said "Sybil was a lovely person" - he looked at him like he finally realized the depth of Tom's love for Sybil.

 

Funny that someone above mentioned Rosamund's hair because I thought the same thing - hate those tight waves around the front of her hair.

 

I'm finding Michelle Dockery's voice (the tone) off putting this year - it's more affected, like she's acting.  I know it's not her real accent but I never noticed this in previous years.

 

Agree that Daisy is a waste of space.

[txhorns79]

The Bunting woman offered the nearly free lessons to Daisy.

 

Yeah, I feel like the only thing Daisy picked up from Sarah Bunting during their lessons was how to be rude and entitled.  I don't even understand how Daisy's mind works at this point.  She was fully prepared to torpedo her life over promises that were never made to her.

[avecsans]

I can't fault Gwen for not identifying herself to her hosts. It was an awkward situation and I am sure she didn't want to embarrass her husband, her hosts or herself. The Sybil discussion was beautiful and brought tears to my eyes. I really wanted her to say "You know nothing, Lord Grantham." Oh well.

Rolled my eyes when the policeman showed up again. And I usually like Molesely, but mind your own business, man! Let Baxter decide when and if to talk to Cora.

I agree that we need much more Rosalind. She's so much more interesting than wimpy Cora. I can't stand Mary but I chuckled at her shot about Miss Bunting.

[Quilt Fairy]

And anyone else notice how crunchy whatever Daisy was mashing was? Certainly not boiled potatoes - maybe potato crisps . . .

I thought she was mashing whole un-shelled eggs in that bowl.

 

BTW, why did it not occur to Mrs Patmore or Barrow - both of whom are above Daisy in rank - to simply forbid her to go upstairs?

 

And I have to give a shout-out to Harriet Walter, who played Lady Shackleton. She was Harriet Vane to Edward Petherbridge's Lord Peter Wimsey in my favorite BBC version of the Dorothy Sayers mysteries.

[txhorns79]

BTW, why did it not occur to Mrs Patmore or Barrow - both of whom are above Daisy in rank - to simply forbid her to go upstairs?

 

Given the way Daisy had worked herself up, I can't imagine she was going to be stopped by Mrs. Patmore or Thomas telling her she was forbidden from going upstairs.  If anything, that probably would have worked her up more.   

[MissLucas]

Mrs Patmore should have whacked her with a colander.

[TaraS1]

I still think Rosamund might be Edith's real mother. She made some weird remark about never having great-grandkids or something, and it reminded me that I thought Edith might be her daughter during the whole drama with Edith's pregnancy/Marigold's birth.

I thought Isobel's comment to the Dowager about her passport was going to be my big laugh of the night until Mary's zinger about a monkey being able to type out the Bible re: Edith. Ha!!!

[SFoster21]

"All we were taught was French, prejudice and dance steps."

Mary, truth teller. Only time I ever liked her.

[RedHawk]

Yeah, I feel like the only thing Daisy picked up from Sarah Bunting during their lessons was how to be rude and entitled. I don't even understand how Daisy's mind works at this point. She was fully prepared to torpedo her life over promises that were never made to her.

I actually asked myself if Daisy's story line includes having a brain tumor! I've never seen anyone exhibit such ridiculous thinking. Sarah Bunting has a lot to answer for. My only hope is that somehow Gwen will take Daisy under her wing and teach her how to improve her lot without behaving like a spoiled, entitled little fool.

Edited January 25, 2016 by RedHawk

[lulee]

I still think Rosamund might be Edith's real mother. She made some weird remark about never having great-grandkids or something, and it reminded me that I thought Edith might be her daughter during the whole drama with Edith's pregnancy/Marigold's birth.

While that would be an interesting twist, I think Fellowes would have dropped more anvils by now if that were to be revealed with so few episodes remaining, especially given that Mary and others still don't know that Marigold is Edith's. So that maternity shoe still needs to drop.

 

Didn't Daisy say that she was quitting just before going to talk to Cora? So Barrow or Patmore scolding her wouldn't have held any weight for someone declaring she wasn't going to work there anymore.

[ShadowFacts]

I actually asked myself if Daisy's story line includes having a brain tumor! I've never seen anyone exhibit such ridiculous thinking. Sarah Bunting has a lot to answer for. My only hope is that somehow Gwen will take Daisy under her wing and teach her how to improve her lot without behaving like a spoiled, entitled little fool.

 

My head canon for Daisy is not a brain tumor, but that she is no longer at all suited for being a servant.  She can't do it, she can't listen to Mrs. Patmore or Molesley anymore, she is finished for that life.  She's not just stupid or impulsive (at times she is a little of each), she needs to get up and out, after all, she has been working to improve herself and I don't think for her that means some day becoming Mrs. Patmore. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Beloved Old Faces Return To Surprise The Ladies Of Downton Abbey
Only one of those faces is probably going to get frenched pretty soon though. Elsewhere, another household employee has a run-in with Sgt. Willis, and Daisy is still a pinko.

[Avaleigh]

I loved how Lady Shackleton just asked Violet some reasonable questions about the hospital and it made Violet all irritated and even slightly flustered. She's totally losing her cool because there's a *tiny*, tiny part of her brain that is acknowledging that she's on the wrong side of the issue. It's kind of fascinating to watch and I'm enjoying the hospital story a little more because of it. Fellowes often puts Violet on the stronger side of the argument so I think it's a nice change that his favorite Violet is in a plot where she's just flat out wrong.

 

Lady Shackleton is a fun addition in general and the actress is always reliable. I will always see her as Fanny from Sense and Sensibility ("Viper in my bosom!) 

 

I wonder if Mary had breakfast downstairs because Tom is back since she usually has breakfast in her room these days.

 

The second time around I tend to notice more of the details and the fashion and I really liked Mary's gold dress with the headband. 

 

Yeah, I feel like the only thing Daisy picked up from Sarah Bunting during their lessons was how to be rude and entitled.  I don't even understand how Daisy's mind works at this point.  She was fully prepared to torpedo her life over promises that were never made to her.

I hadn't considered that this could be Bunting's influence but that actually makes a lot of sense to me considering how much Daisy admired her. Meh, Daisy has always been a little dim but she's really been taking the cake this season. 

 

I loved Mrs. Patmore's line about how hard Daisy was being on the potatoes. Something about how she couldn't be beating the potatoes harder than if she were trying to get them to confess to spying. Mrs. Patmore often makes me laugh, I'll miss her for sure. 

[Pj3422]

 

And I have to give a shout-out to Harriet Walter, who played Lady Shackleton. She was Harriet Vane to Edward Petherbridge's Lord Peter Wimsey in my favorite BBC version of the Dorothy Sayers mysteries.

 

THANK YOU! It was driving me nuts. (It's not Juliet Stevenson... but where have I seen her? OT, but we need a Lord Peter Wimsey reboot)

Loved this episode.. and seeing Gwen again... and seeing Thomas get knocked back into his place.

[Black Knight]

That was beautiful. I was upset when Gwen didn't return for Sybil's funeral, even though I knew it was probably that Rose Leslie was busy on GoT, and so I had been looking forward to her return in this episode. But I figured all we'd get was a quick comment from Gwen to one of the other servants that she'd been sad when she heard about Sybil's death. Instead DA gave us that wonderful scene of Gwen recapping what to me was Sybil's best storyline, with her family drinking up every word.

 

I thought it was amusing that Cora clearly didn't think appeals to common decency, or using Sybil's memory, would work on Mary - she was fully confident about getting everyone else on board, but not Mary. I don't blame her for thinking that considering that she had told Mary several times that Mrs. Hughes might want something else for her wedding, had to resort to calling Mrs. Hughes in, and afterwards Mary complained about having to listen to Mrs. Hughes (because how dare Mrs. Hughes have thoughts about her own wedding). Of course, we do know that Mary was chastened by the reminder of who Sybil had been, although even the way she phrased that was kind of hilarious - had the passing years really made Mary forget that Sybil was the better person? This is an epiphany? Everyone except snobby Carson knew that!

 

I don't know if I'm reading too much into small bits, but Carson's scenes seemed a bit ominous to me. First he commented on how he felt like he'd been away so long, which his wife rightly pointed out didn't speak very well for their honeymoon, and then he was the one to propose that his wife continue to be Mrs. Hughes instead of Mrs. Carson, and then at the very end, he didn't seem so much nostalgic/wistful as kind of annoyed that he has to leave his room. I feel like maybe he's finding marriage isn't what he wanted after all.

 

I didn't mind the comments by various characters about getting used to a name change because it so perfectly mirrored the forums' own comments about how it would be hard to get used to referring to her as Mrs. Carson, some saying they would just continue to use Mrs. Hughes. So it felt pretty meta.

 

It wasn't a good episode for Thomas overall, but he did try to talk Daisy out of going upstairs, instead of just kicking back with popcorn in eager anticipation of her sacking.

 

I didn't quite care for Anna's comment about "at least it's not us" who the policeman was here for, since she knew it was Baxter he'd come to see. Since Baxter, along with Moseley, was crucial to Anna getting out of her legal troubles, it rubbed me the wrong way. I wouldn't have minded had the policeman been there for someone other than Baxter or Moseley, but this just made Anna look ungrateful and self-centered.

[Constantinople]

Did the Mary haters notice?

Mary's snide aside "A monkey will type out the Bible if you leave it long enough".

Yes, I did notice.

[Febgirl]

Ugh, you know nothing Lady Mary.  I have always been more drawn to the "downstairs" residents of Downton Abbey,   Gwen's return made me grin like a fool, and made me dislike the simpy Crawleys even more ( with the exception of Edith who will always get a pass from me.)

[ShadowFacts]

Mary's snide aside "A monkey will type out the Bible if you leave it long enough".

Yes, I did notice.

 

Wow, I did not hear that line.  Now I must put an asterisk on my comment that I liked her throughout the episode and that she had seemed to have grown up.  Clearly not the case.  What a nasty little remark. 

[roomtorome]

It would be nice for a chance for Mary to set her cap for someone who doesn't immediately fancy her - would be a nice change of pace.

 

I too get nothing between Mary and Henry but I never get any spark with men where Mary is concerned; she comes off as a block of ice.  I know she behaves decently on occasion but, I sure am glad she is not in my universe.  

[SusanSunflower]

I think Mary losing her sangfroid -- her wide-eyes, fluttery eyelashes, halting speech and obvious discomfort/nervousness -- was supposed to telegraph "smitten" ... I didn't see "Mary doesn't care" ... I saw Mary trying to avoid acting like a schoolgirl. Henry's "indifference" was also feigned. Too sophisticated, too mature, "too cool for school" 

 

I'm not sure if it's a matter of changing times, Roaring 20's, or if Henry's aware of Mary's reputation wrt Blake and Gillingham (and Carlyle for that matter).

 

eta: Yes, I also think it failed. I think the "saucy talk" at dinner was supposed to be sophisticated banter, suggestive and "hot" ... 

Edited January 25, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Avaleigh]

I know there's a lot to be desired with JF's writing but I'll be damned if this guy hasn't made me cry multiple times during the run of this show. There have been so many moments to do with Sybil's death that have overwhelmed me with emotion and the scene with Gwen at luncheon is easily in my top five favorite moments in the series. Every single person in that room was on the same page about how much they missed that sweet and selfless girl. Darling Sybil, indeed. 

 

Why is Thomas so surprised that people don't like him? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for this jerk? He expects praise from Lord Grantham after the nonsense he pulled in the dining room? Anybody who has seen Gosford Park or UD knows that the idea of a butler just freely speaking about one of the guests at table without being prompted would have landed him in hot water. (I still remember the collective gasp in the theater when Elsie in Gosford Park dared to comment on the master of the house while she was serving. She stopped talking almost as soon as she started but the damage had been done and when she looked to the other servants for support they all looked straight ahead as though she'd become a nonperson and she immediately runs out of the room after this.) Thomas is barely given a reprimand. The main person who showed their disapproval was Bates and Thomas doesn't care what Bates thinks 

 

Bates knows Thomas so well. 

 

Even though I'm not a fan of Thomas Barrow I did enjoy the conversation with Baxter and I liked that he complimented her. 

 

I thought Cora looked lovely during the luncheon scene. 

 

I didn't quite care for Anna's comment about "at least it's not us" who the policeman was here for, since she knew it was Baxter he'd come to see. Since Baxter, along with Moseley, was crucial to Anna getting out of her legal troubles, it rubbed me the wrong way. I wouldn't have minded had the policeman been there for someone other than Baxter or Moseley, but this just made Anna look ungrateful and self-centered.

I thought it was very surprising and Anna is so saint like I guess it's hard to imagine her having a selfish sounding moment like this. It felt out of character to me. 

 

The only thing about Gwen is that I think it would have been a nice touch if her manner of speaking had changed somewhat. I don't mean her accent but there were certain things she said that made it sound as though she'd only left service a year ago and I feel like enough time has passed where she'd wouldn't do things like mistake the word 'me' for 'my' and that sort of thing. 

[Jeffurry]

I'm concerned that this car racing plotline will be less realistic than when they had one on The Bradys.

[StatMom]

"All we were taught was French, prejudice and dance steps."

Mary, truth teller. Only time I ever liked her.

I heard the line as "French prejudice and dance steps." Either way, great line.

[fishcakes]

I think Mary was justified in making the "monkey will type out the Bible" remark. She'd given Edith a genuine compliment and Rosamund felt the need to treat it as remarkable. Rosamund might as well have said, "you're not being as shitty as you usually are; are you up to something?" Mary is entitled to be a bit churlish about that in response. Meanwhile, no one took Edith to task for her multiple instances of nastiness to and about Mary in this episode alone: her barely contained happiness at the idea that since Tom was back, Mary would lose her job as agent; her, "it's just Mary being dramatic" when for all she knows, Mary is the one having a medical emergency; and her dismissively saying they don't need to consult Mary about Yew Tree farm, when Mary is half-owner of Downton as well as the agent. I have no great love for Mary, but at least she's trying. Edith is just malicious.

 

I like Robert so I'm going to tell myself that he ate too much pheasant and aspic. Three times a day every day this season. Oh god, Donk, please don't die.

[lulee]

Yeah, I thought Mary's monkey-typing-Bibles comment served to wave Rosamund off, like "let's not make a big deal about it," not that she was insincere about her comment about Edith.

[Constantinople]

Daisy doesn't bother me.

 

For years, over a dozen in DA time, I've heard the characters go on about the importance of Downton, how it must be modernized and kept going, laboring for the dynasty and blah, blah, blah.

 

It would have all been for nothing if William hadn't thrown himself between an artillery shell and Matthew.

 

So I think the Crawleys should do something for William's father, and they shouldn't have waited this long to provide him with some kind of assurances .  That doesn't necessarily mean letting him lease Yew Tree Farm, but Mr. Mason shouldn't have to worry about where his next meal is coming from or where he'll live.

 

This isn't to say Daisy handled it well.  Her behavior was unrealistic and repetitive, but that's par for the course for many DA characters.

 

That said, I don't know if it's too late for Daisy to apply for a pension as William's widow.  If it's not, she could apply and give Mr. Mason some of the money if she's that concerned about him.

[Avaleigh]

Edith was her usual friendly self at the breakfast table. She's so jealous of how close Mary is with Tom and would love to see them quarreling, but they don't. Did the Mary haters notice? She was perfectly lovely to Tom. She has no problem whatsoever with sharing her job with him if he wishes to doso. She also was perfectly lovely to Anna. I loved it how she took charge and immediately got hold of the situation. And Tom was the only one she told the truth about Anna's situation. Again showing us how good their relationship is. 

What I noticed was how Mary felt that they couldn't have a serious discussion about it with Edith around and Tom doesn't disagree with this. He'll defend Edith when he thinks that Mary is being unjust but they all saw that moment at the table and after Edith decided to go there, Robert started talking about how they shouldn't be fighting. Mary was irritated but she didn't lash back and I thought it was clear that she basically expects this behavior from her sister.

 

ETA:

 

The difference is that Edith's snarkiness has been a bit more blatant and in front of multiple family members while Mary is more low key.

 

With Edith, what's noticeable in the scene to me is the smile when she knows she's getting under Mary's skin.

 

Re: the monkey/Bible comment

 

Mary complimented Edith on her decision to look for a female editor. She and Isobel supported Edith's call while other family members showed skepticism or disapproval. Edith has nothing to say when Mary adds her supportive comments and that's when she walks away. Rosamund is surprised and cautiously happy that Mary has praised Edith only for Mary to confide what she's really thinking. Mary's playing nice on the surface but she still feels the way that she feels because Edith gives her little reason to think that anything has changed in their relationship. I think it's true the other way around too. Edith doesn't have reason to think that her relationship with Mary will ever change so she gets in her digs where she can. She can't help it. I felt like this episode demonstrated that it's a two way street with them in the snarkiness department. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Avaleigh

[RedHawk]

I agree that there's an ominous feeling to Carson's behavior. I am secretly hoping that Robert's indigestion is just that, and a diversion so that we'll all gasp when it's Carson who drops dead in the servant's hall. Thus leaving Mrs. Hughes-Carson a tidy sum and her freedom again. Can you tell? I don't like Carson, and Donk must be spared.

[Constantinople]

For years, I've watched governments take control of our lives. And their argument is always the same -- fewer costs, greater efficiency. But the result is the same, too -- less control by the people, more control by the state. Until the individual's own wishes count for nothing. That is what I consider my duty to resist.

Lady Violet, voting Yes on Brexit

[kassa]

I laughed at Mrs. Patmore sighing that Mrs. Hughes/Carson now knows the “mysteries of the universe!”  Then I laughed harder picturing the mysteries of the universe as revealed by Carson the butler.

 

I haven’t seen the race car guy on anything else that I remember, so as someone seeing him for the first time, I have to confess to me he was a black hole of charisma.  Gwen’s husband had more screen presence.  (In fact, though someone referenced him being in the Christmas special, he apparently made no impression on me in that, either, so apparently I've seen him before in this role and didn't remember him.) Michelle Dockery is very charismatic, but it astonishes me that they have had so many actors cast against her as potential romantic leads and pretty much all of them were lead balloons.  And I don’t think they were intended to be.

 

Daisy, any disappointed hopes Mr. Mason had about Yew Tree farm were completely YOUR fault for telling him about it before it was a sure thing. And the only reason you did that was to make YOURSELF feel better for costing him his farm in the first place. 

 

Other than to Mary and Robert... to whom, exactly, has Carson been kind? 

I had a horrible thought when Carson said he was going up to his room and Thomas was eying him.  Like he was going to push him down the stairs or smother him with a pillow or something. 

 

and then at the very end, he didn't seem so much nostalgic/wistful as kind of annoyed that he has to leave his room. I feel like maybe he's finding marriage isn't what he wanted after all.

 

 

 

After basically sleeping in little cells their entire adult lives (and probably worse conditions before that),  having a whole cottage to move around in is going to be jarring.   And instead of rolling out of bed, dressing, and walking down stairs, he’s got to walk from wherever the cottage is all the way to the house.  That’s a bit of an added commute to the day when your day is probably 6 am to 11 7 days a week, with the occasional afternoon off.  A big adjustment.

 

Mary was kind and went above and beyond to Anna, but I think it’s unrealistic that she’s not giving a moment’s thought to the fact that she’s going to need a new maid.  Can you imagine her with Denker?

 

Rosamund is surprised and cautiously happy that Mary has praised Edith only for Mary to confide what she's really thinking.

 

 

Oh - I took Mary's comment the opposite way -- as a reaction to Rosamund acting like she (Mary) wasn't a bitch for once in her life.  And Mary snarked back the monkey metaphor as a way of saying it was obviously a fluke.  In other words, Mary saying something nice to Edith was the monkey stumbling on the bible verse, not Edith having a good idea.  Golly, now I don't know how she meant it. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by kassa

[RedHawk]

My head canon for Daisy is not a brain tumor, but that she is no longer at all suited for being a servant.  She can't do it, she can't listen to Mrs. Patmore or Molesley anymore, she is finished for that life.  She's not just stupid or impulsive (at times she is a little of each), she needs to get up and out, after all, she has been working to improve herself and I don't think for her that means some day becoming Mrs. Patmore. 

 

I muddled my comment about Daisy -- I agree that she has every right to improve her lot and that she's sick of being stuck below stairs taking orders and watching "her betters" put her father-in-law off his farm. What I take issue with is her manner of "helping" Mr. Mason by attacking the very people who most can help him and are likely to listen to a reasonable plea for assistance. Cora was not going to let the farm matter drop, and so Daisy's anger and poor timing were uncalled for. She stupidly risked her own job twice when it was unnecessary. I once again blame Fellowes' need to add drama in a way that makes a character unlikeable and annoying.

 

Daisy doesn't bother me.

 

For years, over a dozen in DA time, I've heard the characters go on about the importance of Downton, how it must be modernized and kept going, laboring for the dynasty and blah, blah, blah.

 

It would have all been for nothing if William hadn't thrown himself between an artillery shell and Matthew.

 

So I think the Crawleys should do something for William's father, and they shouldn't have waited this long to provide him with some kind of assurances .  That doesn't necessarily mean letting him lease Yew Tree Farm, but Mr. Mason shouldn't have to worry about where his next meal is coming from or where he'll live.

 

This isn't to say Daisy handled it well.  Her behavior was unrealistic and repetitive, but that's par for the course for many DA characters.

 

That said, I don't know if it's too late for Daisy to apply for a pension as William's widow.  If it's not, she could apply and give Mr. Mason some of the money if she's that concerned about him.

 

I had forgotten that William saved Matthew's life, and apparently so has the rest of the Grantham family. Robert mentions only that he went from the Abbey to "fight for King and Country" and died, so Mr. Mason "has privileges in this house". Yes, I agree that as soon as it was certain he would lose the farm, the Granthams should have offered him a cottage and some sort of work about the place. They could have made it "so you will be close to Daisy" to ease the "charity" aspect as well as a reminder that they owed a great debt to William. Ah well, Fellowes Fellowes. Much easier and more dramatic to have Daisy lose all sense of propriety and timing and go for the throat of everyone who doesn't instantly snap to "fix" Mr. Mason's problem.

[whatsatool]

I had forgotten that William saved Matthew's life, and apparently so has the rest of the Grantham family. Robert mentions only that he went from the Abbey to "fight for King and Country" and died, so Mr. Mason "has privileges in this house". Yes, I agree that as soon as it was certain he would lose the farm, the Granthams should have offered him a cottage and some sort of work about the place. They could have made it "so you will be close to Daisy" to ease the "charity" aspect as well as a reminder that they owed a great debt to William. Ah well, Fellowes Fellowes. Much easier and more dramatic to have Daisy lose all sense of propriety and timing and go for the throat of everyone who doesn't instantly snap to "fix" Mr. Mason's problem.

Yes they owe everything to William.

Edited January 25, 2016 by whatsatool

[FineWashables]

Since they keep insisting on returning to this brain-deadening hospital subplot, I conclude that Downton is going to become a hospital.

 

I really do think they're setting Thomas Barrow up for suicide. He's horrid, and so he hasn't got a friend in the world, and he's clearly not going to be able to get a boyfriend, so what does he have to live for?  When he kills himself, it will be a metaphor for the decline of the butler system or something.

[Catherinewriter]

Put me in the group that loved the whole scene with memories of Sybil. God, I still miss her so much. She is totally the best of the girls, IMHO.

 

A bit off topic, but they spend so much time talking about the children (what will George's life be like, so glad Sybbie's back, etc.,) but they spend so little time with them (compared with the Drewes and their kids.) When we came into the show, all the girls were grown and completely part of the adult environment, and I wonder when that happened.When did the kids graduate from the nursery to the dining room, or was there a middle period in which they ate at a separate table, etc. Just curious. 

 

So good to see Gwen again.

 

I'm completely in sync with detestation of the British class system, and even I was screaming at Daisy, "No, she didn't promise anything of the kind, etc."  But I was taken aback when Cora asked what Daisy was doing upstairs in such a judgmental voice. Really, history? No one from downstairs was allowed to walk upstairs unless they had been summoned? 

They're going to have to put a separate track on the train from London to ease the unending trips by the policeman. Dear god, enough already. 

[peggy06]

Oh - I took Mary's comment the opposite way -- as a reaction to Rosamund acting like she (Mary) wasn't a bitch for once in her life.  And Mary snarked back the monkey metaphor as a way of saying it was obviously a fluke.  In other words, Mary saying something nice to Edith was the monkey stumbling on the bible verse, not Edith having a good idea.  Golly, now I don't know how she meant it. 

I absolutely took it this way, too - Mary was referring to herself as the "monkey." She was downplaying any praise for the comment. I don't see how it could really be interpreted any other way. There was no reason for her to pay Edith a compliment if she didn't actually mean it, nobody would expect it given the frosty state of relations between them. So why would she lie to Edith's face and then snark behind her back? 

[iMonrey]

The whole time Rose Leslie was on Game of Thrones I kept expecting her to say "I want to be a secretary!" She finally comes back to Downton Abbey and I kept waiting for her to say "You know nothing Jon Snow!" She has such a distinctive accent - does anyone know what region it is? Anyway, that was one of the loveliest scenes they've had in a long time and nice tribute to Sybil. 

 

I agree with the recapper that it's kind of appalling there's been no mention of how Matthew died since Talbot the race car driver arrived on the scene. I also find the actor somewhat lacking in the looks department - he certainly can't hold a candle to Matthew and even Tony Gillingham and Charles Blake were better looking IMO.

 

Can someone tell me the significance of this image that's always used in recaps? I'm assuming it's some iconic scene from a TV show I never watched but I don't know. 

 

 

 

 

[peggy06]

I agree that there's an ominous feeling to Carson's behavior. I am secretly hoping that Robert's indigestion is just that, and a diversion so that we'll all gasp when it's Carson who drops dead in the servant's hall. Thus leaving Mrs. Hughes-Carson a tidy sum and her freedom again. Can you tell? I don't like Carson, and Donk must be spared.

I swear I thought he was going to have a heart attack in that scene in his room before the wedding. Several times, he's been acting tired or like something is physically wrong. That said, they're really setting up for Robert to have something serious that will put an end to the debate about the hospital once and for all.

 

They are also showing Carson's regrets about "leaving" Downton. It's almost like he feels demeaned to be living outside the Abbey. Between that and his pushing the idea of a wedding at Downton, he is clearly very attached to the place and his connection with it. But I guess a certain amount of regret is natural. Coupled with the whole Carson/Hughes thing, though, I'd be perturbed if I were Elsie.

Edited January 25, 2016 by peggy06

[kassa]

But I was taken aback when Cora asked what Daisy was doing upstairs in such a judgmental voice. Really, history? No one from downstairs was allowed to walk upstairs unless they had been summoned?

 

 

She had no role in the upstairs part of the house (except early on, when she'd do the fires, if I recall correctly, and even then she was to do it when they weren't around).

 

It's weird to us, but to Cora, upstairs is her home, and running into random employees in the hallway was not something she would have expected/welcomed. By appointment in the living room, sure.  On the way to bed, no. 

 

Only the butler, housekeeper and the men in livery were supposed to be visible to the family within their home environment.  Even the ladies maids stayed upstairs.

[gus]

 

That said, they're really setting up for Robert to have something serious that will put an end to the debate about the hospital once and for all.

 

Exactly.  Either he'll die or he won't (I hope "won't"), but either way it will involve an emergency situation with no time to get to London or to get a London doctor, Clarkson will be stymied, and Violet will see the value of having improved medical care available locally.  

 

[Hanahope]

I was wondering who the Crawleys would rent the house at Yew Tree Farm to if not a farmer for the land, so I didn't quite get why they would make more money farming the land themselves (or via hired farmers) rather than leasing the whole thing out and taking a profit that way.

 

Thomas hadn't earned the right to speak as he did, whereas Carson maybe would have, though probably would not because he is kind towards good employees.  Its uppidy assholes like Thomas and Daisy that rightly earn his wrath.  I can't believe how rude Daisy almost was to Cora, though Cora probably should have tried to say something to Daisy beforehand, since she obviously knew Daisy thought the farm was fait accompli.

 

It was a great memory scene of Sybil and Gwen. 

 

Am I to assume that the Carson's cottage is next door to the Bates?  And there was a comment about how the new housemaids don't live in.  Not many servants living in the house anymore.

[kathyj]

I loved the episode, as usual!  Favorite line - Mrs. Patmore (not exact):  "By now she has found the mystery of life - I wish I could."

I am guessing that Lord Grantham's stomach pains will be the solution for the hospital controversy.  He'll need special care from a larger hospital and will change the mind of the Dowager!

[blackwing]

Mary's snide aside "A monkey will type out the Bible if you leave it long enough".

Yes, I did notice.

I thought Mary was giving a genuine compliment to her sister.  I took that to be a result of her realisation that Sybil was such a selfless and kind person, and that she wished she could be more like Sybil.  The Old Mary would never say anything nice to Edith.  Edith didn't even thank her for her support and kind words, she just walked away.  Then Rosamund automatically assumes that Mary is up to something, so I felt like that's why Mary said what she did to Rosamund.

 

I really do think they're setting Thomas Barrow up for suicide. He's horrid, and so he hasn't got a friend in the world, and he's clearly not going to be able to get a boyfriend, so what does he have to live for?  When he kills himself, it will be a metaphor for the decline of the butler system or something.

If it weren't the last season, I might agree with you.  All indications seem to be pointing to him descending into a wicked spiral.  But since is the last season, I think we are clearly being set up with happy endings for everyone.  Whatever "signs" we have seen in these past few episodes will come to pass.  Robert doesn't have a heart problem.  Mary will marry Henry Talbot and continue to live at and run Downton.  Edith will marry Bertie and move to London with Marigold.  The Bateses have a baby and quit service.  Moseley and Baxter get married.  Andy and Daisy get married and work Yew Tree Farm for Mr. Mason.  Which leaves Carson retiring and Thomas becoming Butler.  Maybe he has some kind of epiphany along the way.  He realises that nobody likes him and he vows to change and become the best butler that ever butlered in the centuries old history of Downton Abbey.  Maybe Baxter becomes Housekeeper after Mrs. Hughes retires with Carson.  Since it's the last season, I even wouldn't be at all surprised if Miss O'Brien comes back and resumes her place as Cora's Lady's Maid. .  

 

Oh and the hospital plot will be tidied up nicely after everyone sees things from the opposing side's perspective zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[kassa]

I wonder when children get a maid/valet.  Would an unmarried guy get a valet?  The girls all shared Anna until Mary got married -- I wonder when that kicked in.  Maybe the governess handled that until she left?

 

I imagine it would be more difficult to get a teenage boy to dress to the nines on his own than a teenage girl. Especially in the days when a tuxedo was considered the equivalent of pajamas.

[SusanSunflower]

Fun to imagine the family waking up in a house empty of servants ... I doubt we'll get quite there ... 

[txhorns79]

It's weird to us, but to Cora, upstairs is her home, and running into random employees in the hallway was not something she would have expected/welcomed. By appointment in the living room, sure.  On the way to bed, no.

 

Not to mention that Daisy has no reason to be upstairs, as her work is confined almost exclusively to the kitchen. 

 

 

Can someone tell me the significance of this image that's always used in recaps? I'm assuming it's some iconic scene from a TV show I never watched but I don't know.

 

It's from an episode of Arrested Development.  George Sr. was fond of teaching his children lessons in the craziest way possible, so he had a friend that would set up situations to demonstrate to them why doing a certain activity was bad or wrong. 

[dangwoodchucks]

Exactly. But then, I love me some Lady Mary.

I teared up when Gwen was talking about Sybil. Poor, dead Sybil, and poor us since she went.

Really hope Mary and Tom don't get together.

I like Edith, but damn, girl. Shut it.

Amen.

As snarky and hurtful as Mary has been to Edith all these years, Edith can say anything she wants to Mary as far as I'm concerned.

Mary vs. Edith discussions are starting early after this episode, which I guess means there isn't much to discuss about the episode.  I would venture to guess that Fellowes used this one as a set-up for the grand finale.  Clearly Daisy & Andy are suddenly a one true pairing, but what of Moesley and Baxter?  Is there really time for yet another crime drama before they discover true love?  I love Moelsey (which I've spelled 2 ways, not sure if either is correct!) and he clearly loves Baxter, yet no progress was made there.    I can't tell if Talbot will be Mary's future spouse.  As has been mentioned above, they have nothing in common besides haughtiness, but they do make a beautiful couple.  If he's 40th in line, would she really go for him?  Perhaps, as she no longer needs lineage, thanks to George.  I do believe Fellowes put the kibosh on any Mary/Tom pairings, with her brother comment and with bringing up Sybil.  That was quite a lovely scene!

 

No progress on Bertie/Edith this episode, but perhaps Tom will fall in love with the prospective female editor.  Where will Edith find her?.  Fellowes must have some convoluted way to bring Bertie to Downton, but is there time for anyone to have a romance and a marriage?  I hope so, because the costumes and the settings have been stunning this season.  I gasped at the beauty of the table and at Cora's and Mary's clothes.  I would love to see a grand wedding!

 

I will never understand why Anna must looks so dowdy with that awful wig.  Perhaps so she will seem all the more beautiful, with her hair down as she holds her newly birthed son/daughter in the finale?  I really thought that Mary wanted to hug Anna, when it seemed she was miscarrying, but I guess that wouldn't be proper.  I'm glad for Anna that Mary helped to save her baby. I feel nothing for Bates these days.  I don't think they are the wondrous match they were supposed to be.  

Anna looked so lovely with her hat on when she and Mary were leaving, because we couldn't see that horrible wig. Since JoFro has blond hair, why bother with a wig to begin with?

 

I laughed at Mrs. Patmore sighing that Mrs. Hughes/Carson now knows the “mysteries of the universe!”  Then I laughed harder picturing the mysteries of the universe as revealed by Carson the butler.

 

I haven’t seen the race car guy on anything else that I remember, so as someone seeing him for the first time, I have to confess to me he was a black hole of charisma.  Gwen’s husband had more screen presence.  (In fact, though someone referenced him being in the Christmas special, he apparently made no impression on me in that, either, so apparently I've seen him before in this role and didn't remember him.) Michelle Dockery is very charismatic, but it astonishes me that they have had so many actors cast against her as potential romantic leads and pretty much all of them were lead balloons.  And I don’t think they were intended to be.

 

Daisy, any disappointed hopes Mr. Mason had about Yew Tree farm were completely YOUR fault for telling him about it before it was a sure thing. And the only reason you did that was to make YOURSELF feel better for costing him his farm in the first place. 

 

Other than to Mary and Robert... to whom, exactly, has Carson been kind? 

I had a horrible thought when Carson said he was going up to his room and Thomas was eying him.  Like he was going to push him down the stairs or smother him with a pillow or something. 

 

 

After basically sleeping in little cells their entire adult lives (and probably worse conditions before that),  having a whole cottage to move around in is going to be jarring.   And instead of rolling out of bed, dressing, and walking down stairs, he’s got to walk from wherever the cottage is all the way to the house.  That’s a bit of an added commute to the day when your day is probably 6 am to 11 7 days a week, with the occasional afternoon off.  A big adjustment.

 

Mary was kind and went above and beyond to Anna, but I think it’s unrealistic that she’s not giving a moment’s thought to the fact that she’s going to need a new maid.  Can you imagine her with Denker?

 

Oh - I took Mary's comment the opposite way -- as a reaction to Rosamund acting like she (Mary) wasn't a bitch for once in her life.  And Mary snarked back the monkey metaphor as a way of saying it was obviously a fluke.  In other words, Mary saying something nice to Edith was the monkey stumbling on the bible verse, not Edith having a good idea.  Golly, now I don't know how she meant it. 

Perhaps they should have gotten Joe Armstrong to play a love interest for Mary. He played her husband in The Hollow Crown and they had plenty of chemistry together.

 

Must be me, but with the exception of Rosamund, every character in the library scene was annoying to me.

[PRgal]

I wonder when children get a maid/valet.  Would an unmarried guy get a valet?  The girls all shared Anna until Mary got married -- I wonder when that kicked in.  Maybe the governess handled that until she left?

 

I imagine it would be more difficult to get a teenage boy to dress to the nines on his own than a teenage girl. Especially in the days when a tuxedo was considered the equivalent of pajamas.

 

Teenage boys are usually away at boarding school, so it's unlikely they'll have anyone at that time.  Maybe in his 20s?

[Andorra]

I wonder when children get a maid/valet.  Would an unmarried guy get a valet?  The girls all shared Anna until Mary got married -- I wonder when that kicked in.  Maybe the governess handled that until she left?

 

 

George will go to boarding school soon, so he won't live at home at all. The girls will be in the nursery till they get a governess or go to school as well. 

 

I think I've read somewhere, that they got into the dining room with the adults when they were 14/15 years old which would also be the point when they would get a housemaid for dressing and hair. . 

[Llywela]

Kids were allowed to start joining the grown ups for dinner when they could be trusted to eat tidily, not make a mess, and remember which silverware to use for what.

[TheGreenKnight]

I thought Mary was giving a genuine compliment to her sister.  I took that to be a result of her realisation that Sybil was such a selfless and kind person, and that she wished she could be more like Sybil.  The Old Mary would never say anything nice to Edith.  Edith didn't even thank her for her support and kind words, she just walked away.  Then Rosamund automatically assumes that Mary is up to something, so I felt like that's why Mary said what she did to Rosamund.

I think Rosamund only said what Edith was thinking. Mary wouldn't compliment Edith for no reason, why would any of the family think so? I think the memories of Sybil reminded Mary of her and Edith's deathbed conversation, and made her realize that the relationship would most likely change if Mary wanted to change it.

 

But that's probably giving the writing too much credit. For instance, somebody pointed out Bates' words to Baxter this episode ("For once I agree with you.") which made no sense since Bates no longer dislikes Baxter? It's the same thing with Cora suddenly being harder with the servants again or Thomas treating Anna and Bates the same after they were kind to him in season 3. Fellowes isn't creative enough to write characters who grow and change, that's why they revert pretty fast to their old routines.

 

I didn't think Mary was especially noteworthy in her treatment of Gwen. Although Mary recognized her, Isobel is the only person who seemed to take an interest in her or her story before they knew she was connected to the family in some way.