S06.E04: Season 6, Episode 4

[Kohola3]

"All we were taught was French, prejudice and dance steps."

 

For what it's worth, this is how it came across in the closed captioning.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Kohola3

[Mrsjumbo]

Getting back to the car vs train to London- my dad has a 1920's model A. I asked him how fast it goes & he said over 50 mph it overheats so he usually drives it on 35 mph streets, never on the expressway. He guessed the train would be faster.

[SFoster21]

I thought she said "All we were taught was French prejudice, and dance steps."

As in "prejudice against the French."

But you could be right.

Who knows? I like mine better. And upper class women learned French.

[SusanSunflower]

The thing is prejudice varies with the environment and subject and hatred of all.things.French has surged and waned in England for centuries as various wars and competitions have complicated the relationship between them, so being taught to hate the French by xenophobic or francophobic tutor seems plausible.  France and things French have not been mentioned before that I remember. 

 

The United States loved the French for more than a century ... they supported our war of independence in a number of essential ways ... We loved the French Revolution... you'd never guess these days when the French are popularly the butt of many jokes, somehow surrounding their surrender with Hitler's invasion in WWII, most Americans knowing little, almost nothing about French losses in WWI. ...  Americans tend to believe that we "bailed out" both France and England and they owe us ... etc. 

 

eta: I'm not sure what "prejudice" most people would consider they have been taught ... my mother was a snob ... but I was not "taught" prejudice so much as taught to not.be.vulgar .. What prejudice was Mary referring to?  Racial prejudice, class prejudice, even antisemitism were business as usual ... Odd thing to say, either way ... 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[kat165]

About the name thing with Mrs. Hughes/Mrs. Carson, they went through the same nonsense when Mosely became a footman. As a footman he would be called by his first name, and none of them knew what it was. As a valet he was called Mr. Mosely. Violet had a good zinger about having to call him Joseph but I forget now what it was. They all agreed on continuing to call him Mr. Mosely. God forbid they should extend any effort in remembering the names of the staff.

Edited January 27, 2016 by kat165

[madam magpie]

I'm sure Mary meant class prejudice. Educated girls in the early 20th century were taught to be pretty, vapid snobs. Learning French has long been an upper class course of study. She could have also said Latin, but I suspect Latin was too male...too useful. French is like art: pretty but not substantive. Same with dance steps. Mary has always hated the limits of her education. She was saying that it was cool the girls had a school to go to where they could learn real skills, as opposed to the snobby, upper-crusty BS schooling "proper" girls got.

I really think most people who hate Mary don't get her humor. She's very dry and witty. She rarely just says something straight. She snarks and quips almost exhaustively. That's one of the main reasons she fell so hard for Matthew. He not only got her sense of humor and wit (and independent streak), he matched and admired those qualities in her.

Edited January 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[CeeBeeGee]

I don't think she's afraid of him at all. She's afraid for him. He's always very gentle with her, and most others as well. The only people he speaks to in a harsh way or gives "the eye" to are those who he thinks are threatening someone he loves. Even Barrow just gets dismissive comments.

 

He didn't even harm his shrewish first wife after all she did to him. Anna doesn't want him to get his hopes up, not because she's afraid of repercussions, but because she doesn't want him to be hurt at another loss. It's debatable whether this is really the best course in marriage, but it's not on account of intimidation, but rather on account of her love for him. She said so at one point.

 

Yeah, I don't get afraid at all. He adores her. I think they're very sweet together.

 

And in real life Rose Leslie is an aristocrat if I remember this right

 

Her father is the chiefton of Clan Leslie.

[Black Knight]

I totally get Gwen's not volunteering the information, but it did seem disingenuous to split hairs and tell Mary they hadn't been introduced. I took Mary's remark not as rudeness about rank but annoyance that she felt lied to. When they all started to marvel at how no one upstairs recognized her I thought Mary might have indicated that she had. Anyway, Gwen's discussion about Sybil made up for all of it.

It may have been splitting hairs, but what Gwen said was true. And she was asked at an awkward time, interrupted in the middle of an important conversation she was having to build support for the school that's so important to her, by the person she doubtless knew was the likeliest to be snobby about her having been a housemaid at Downton. Gwen had only just realized a few minutes earlier that it was Downton she was going to be at - as she told Anna, all she'd known was that they were going to be visiting a Painswick, and she was still confused about being at Downton even as Anna was taking her coat. Anna had to remind her that Lady Rosamunde Painswick is Lord Robert's sister.

 

I suspect, by the way, that the reason Mary noticed Gwen's face enough at one time to vaguely remember it years later is because Gwen is very attractive and Mary is the type of competitive woman who always notes the presence of another good-looking woman.

 

It's possible.  What I think is more likely is she'd use the info to take nasty swipes behind Edith's back --- to Anna or Rosamund or whoever.  Anyone catch the lovely comment she said to Rosamund about Edith being an editor?  "Even a monkey can type out the bible if left long enough."  Nice, eh?  Typical snotty Mary.  Can't exactly picture them happily shopping together, gushing & skipping along, while holding hands, with matching 'dos, scoping out bargains in flapper dresses & kitten heels.  Hmmmm, just can't picture it.

If this weren't the last season of the show, I agree with you that the inevitable Marigold revelation would just be another opportunity for Mary to be nasty to and about Edith. It's conflict, after all. But since it is the last season, I think Fellowes will want to...not make them best friends or anything extreme like that, but maybe just have them agree to actually try to be nicer with each other. Edith made that overture once, at Sybil's deathbed, and Mary rejected it then, but I'm betting since it's the last season there's another overture between them and this time they agree. Perhaps with a snarky comment thrown in about how it'll be easier to do since Edith will (I assume) be moving to London and so they won't be around each other all that much, to keep it from being too treacly and unbelievable.

 

But definitely count me in with those who believe Mary was referring to Edith with the monkey comment. She didn't want Rosamunde (or anyone) thinking she actually respects Edith in any way. Edith having a good plan was nothing more than her being the stopped clock who's right twice a day, to use the other common expression that means much the same thing. I think Rosamunde was trying to give Mary some positive reinforcement with a view towards the day Mary might find out about Marigold - after all, it's not like reprimands have worked on her either.

 

Speaking of, I think that's why Rosamunde has her bond with Edith. It's not that they're actually mother and daughter as has been speculated, it's more that Rosamunde knows what it is to be the unimportant, overlooked sibling. Violet is a traditionalist; the heir Robert is who would have mattered in the house, while Rosamunde was just to be married off as quickly as possible. It's pretty clear that Rosamunde sides with Edith in the Mary vs. Edith war - note how in a previous episode, in trying to convince Edith to move up to London, she asked whether Edith was really going to stay at Downton with Mary sniping at her. Not "Mary and you sniping at each other," only "Mary sniping at you." Edith snipes plenty, but Rosamunde gives her a pass.

 

One of my biggest regrets with this show is that it took so long to make Rosamunde a character we see regularly. The actress is wonderful and the character has really developed. We barely saw her in early seasons and it often seemed she existed mostly so that Violet could be right every now and again, since Violet was almost always the one in the wrong in her arguments with the regular cast like Isobel, Cora, et al. Most notably, Rosamunde is the one who gave Mary the terrible advice about waiting to see if Matthew was going to remain heir to DA before agreeing to marry him, so Violet could be the one who quite accurately noted, "If she won't take him when he might be poor, then when he's rich, he won't want her."

[Llywela]

Odd -she used the exact same accent in Game of Thrones. I'm guessing Ygritte wasn't supposed to be from York.

Slightly OT, but there's a really good article here that discusses the accents in Game of Thrones, including Scottish Rose Leslie's very convincing north of England accent - plus a video clip of an interview with Rose using her real accent, which is nothing like!

 

Speaking of, I think that's why Rosamunde has her bond with Edith. It's not that they're actually mother and daughter as has been speculated, it's more that Rosamunde knows what it is to be the unimportant, overlooked sibling. Violet is a traditionalist; the heir Robert is who would have mattered in the house, while Rosamunde was just to be married off as quickly as possible. It's pretty clear that Rosamunde sides with Edith in the Mary vs. Edith war - note how in a previous episode, in trying to convince Edith to move up to London, she asked whether Edith was really going to stay at Downton with Mary sniping at her. Not "Mary and you sniping at each other," only "Mary sniping at you." Edith snipes plenty, but Rosamunde gives her a pass.

I agree. Sometimes aunts and uncles just happen to have a stronger bond with one niece/nephew than another. I had a childless aunt who miscarried her one and only pregnancy while my mother was expecting me; I was named after her, and from then on I was 'her' baby, singled out among all the other nephews and nieces. Season one press pack notwithstanding, Rosamund is childless, and Edith is the niece with whom she has formed the closest bond over the years, drawn together by circumstance and personality.

[Roseanna]

The thing is prejudice varies with the environment and subject and hatred of all.things.French has surged and waned in England for centuries as various wars and competitions have complicated the relationship between them, so being taught to hate the French by xenophobic or francophobic tutor seems plausible.  France and things French have not been mentioned before that I remember. 

 

But Paris was the mecca of art, fashion and food as well as evidently the most liberal place as the writers of all countries went there in the 1920ies.

 

Further, French had for centuries been the language the aristocracy in every European country spoke (see War and peace). They had close relationships with each other and felt solidarity towards each other than towards the lower classes in their own country (see Renoir's film about the French POVs and the German commander).

 

If I took DA seriously, I would regard the English most insular and xebophonic people of all.

[lucindabelle]

Odd -she used the exact same accent in Game of Thrones. I'm guessing Ygritte wasn't supposed to be from York.

 

 

What they're going for and what Brendan Coyle delivers can be interpreted as two different things, I agree. To this day I still wonder if he didn't really murder his wife Vera after all.

British made dramas often use regional and class (Cockney etc) dialects as signifiers when to American ears all of a sudden were in the UK!

The British translation of the Czech playwright Karel capeks play "the insect play" makes the laboring ants cockney. I'm sure that helped to English people but Americans would be all why are we suddenly in London?

Had same response to the scottish smuggler in the new Star Wars. I'm like whoa, Glasgow too is in a galaxy far far away! Didn't work as exotic, just specific.

We're too used to posh brit villains to notice.

In game of thrones the scottish/ Yorkshire dialect was so strong I thought he was saying "juice of the puppy" for poppy....

[Roseanna]

Most notably, Rosamunde is the one who gave Mary the terrible advice about waiting to see if Matthew was going to remain heir to DA before agreeing to marry him, so Violet could be the one who quite accurately noted, "If she won't take him when he might be poor, then when he's rich, he won't want her."

 

Yes, but Violet also said that Mary could break the engagement if Cora had a son. And if she didn't, Violet wanted Mary to base her marriage on a lie as Matthew would have believed that she would have married him anyway.

 

What Rosamund said was sensible enough. It's better to think beforehand if one really is a person who can be happy in the modest circumstances than have remorse for decades ("I would have made better") and make also one's husband unhappy.

 

I think that that the break was Matthew's fault as well as Mary's. He wanted to be sure without realizing that just that sureness could be false. And of course there was Pamuk's shadow lurking which Matthew didn't know. 

[Kohola3]

Educated girls in the early 20th century were taught to be pretty, vapid snobs.

 

Mary got straight A's in that class.

[PRgal]

Who knows? I like mine better. And upper class women learned French.

 

Yep.  I wrote a "thesis" (in reality, a research paper, since it was "only" 50 or so pages and consisted mostly of secondary resources) for my master's degree in the history of middle and upper class women's education.  French, along with music (which Mary didn't mention!) and dance were part of the curriculum of "accomplishments."  By the time Crawley girls were born, there were already quite a few more "progressive" schools for girls in the UK such as Cheltenham Ladies' College and Roedean, but most of the students were daughters of the newly wealthy rather than aristocracy.  Of course, there were also finishing schools. 

On Rosamund's relationship with Edith:  She gives me the vibe of THAT AUNT.  I know quite a few women like her.  Unmarried (though not widowed like R) and always posting photos of their nieces and/or nephews on Facebook. 

[madam magpie]

Mary got straight A's in that class.

She is beautiful yes, but vapid?? Are you sure you know what that word means? Mary can be called lots of things, but vapid isn't one of them.

[TheGreenKnight]

I really think most people who hate Mary don't get her humor. She's very dry and witty. She rarely just says something straight. She snarks and quips almost exhaustively.

I think Mrs. Patmore, Mrs. Hughes, Violet, and even sometimes Isobel are dry and witty. Mary’s just an ass.

[SusanSunflower]

Most of us have known someone who regularly snark but adds little substance to the conversation ... it's not vapid but it's tedious and shallow. Most people outgrow it. Mary's overweaning competitiveness is tiresome and make her opinions untrustworthy. Violet is much the same way actually. Does Violet really care about the quality of the hospital's care/services or is she only concerned about losing her control of the hospital?  Does Mary care about what's best for Tom and Sybbie or is she just glad to have her trusted ally and admirer returned to her fold? Does Mary care about Carson or is he her unwaveringly reliable supporter, unconditionally?  Queen of the Universe syndrome. Hoists herself up by putting other people down, sometimes just with an arched eyebrow -- how witty. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Constantinople]

But Paris was the mecca of art, fashion and food as well as evidently the most liberal place as the writers of all countries went there in the 1920ies.

 

Further, French had for centuries been the language the aristocracy in every European country spoke (see War and peace). They had close relationships with each other and felt solidarity towards each other than towards the lower classes in their own country (see Renoir's film about the French POVs and the German commander).

 

If I took DA seriously, I would regard the English most insular and xebophonic people of all.

 

...One method of dealing with the troublesome messages by which poets or painters instinctually telegraph to the rest of society what has become of the human spirit was to send them to prison.  Another way was the highly effective British system of education for its governing class, more or less successfully eliminating artistic or literary sensibility by the value of public school boorishness.

 

When Thomas Hardy's seventieth birthday approached in 1910, Asquith's private secretary telephone Buckingham Palace to suggest that a telegram to 'old Hardy' would be appreciated.  Mr. Hardy of Alnwick, who made King George V's fishing rods, was astonished to receive royal congratulations on achieving an age he had not attained, on a day which in his life was an anniversary of nothing.  At the opening of the Tate Gallery extension, the king stood before a French Impressionist picture and called to the Queen: 'Here's something to make you laugh, May'  At a canvass of Cezanne's he shook his stick.

 

After the Victorians, p. 156

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, it's hard to know what opinions a tutor or governess of that era might impart.  They might be secretly intellectual or they might be sufficiently conservative, possibly religious , to consider all French scandalous libertines (like my elementary school teacher suggested), Folies Bergère, Place Pigalle and the can-can, ooh-la-la ... we will never know unless someone presses Fellowes ... 

If they had a French tutor, which was not uncommon, of course they would learn French prejudices along with the language!

 

eta: Hard to guess Fellowes' prejudices wrt the French, again, does he seem them as the source of glorious things or politically as blaggards? 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[madam magpie]

Most of us have known someone who regularly snark but adds little substance to the conversation ... it's not vapid but it's tedious and shallow. Most people outgrow it. Mary's overweaning competitiveness is tiresome and make her opinions untrustworthy. Violet is much the same way actually. Does Violet really care about the quality of the hospital's care/services or is she only concerned about losing her control of the hospital? Does Mary care about what's best for Tom and Sybbie or is she just glad to have her trusted ally and admirer returned to her fold? Does Mary care about Carson or is he her unwaveringly reliable supporter, unconditionally? Queen of the Universe syndrome. Hoists herself up by putting other people down, sometimes just with an arched eyebrow -- how witty.

I think Violet and Mary care very much, but that their approach is hard. Mrs. Hughes, etc. are much softer in their approach to everything. That's ok too. I do also think Violet and Mary think they're smarter than everyone else, and they're both pretty snobby about it. That may be hubris, but it's also somewhat true. Both characters are very sharp, and I personally find them both very funny.

They also don't tell a joke's punchline. They say it, and if you get the joke, cool. If you don't, it sounds bitchy and shallow. They're sort of like The New Yorker magazine in that way. I know lots of people like that (many more of that type than those who are sharp-witted but add little substance), and though they may be elitist, I do think that's much smarter than people who explain (constantly) what they mean. I also think this personality type is more off-putting for most people when it appears in women, especially young, attractive women who don't know their place. But to each her own.

Edited January 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[SusanSunflower]

Well, I certainly noticed about a decade ago when catty women reappeared in British productions with a vengeance ... Feminism (Sisterhood is powerful, etc.) had sort of ruined the old-fashioned ambitious women are bitches memes, etc. that were common in my childhood, pre-feminism, when business women were not uncommonly depicted as underhanded, husband-stealing man-eaters etc. See "The Women" 

[ShadowFacts]

I think Mrs. Patmore, Mrs. Hughes, Violet, and even sometimes Isobel are dry and witty. Mary’s just an ass.

 

Humor is so subjective, but I think Mrs. Patmore's observational humor is much funnier than anyone else's, and then she makes unintentionally funny remarks such as the one in this episode about Mrs. Hughes now knowing the mystery of the universe or however she said it.  Isobel asking Violet if she had her passport ready to go to the kitchen was funnier to me than, for example, Violet asking Isobel if it was lonely on the moral high ground.  Of course Violet has cracked me up on many occasions as well, but Mary I don't find witty or funny.  She is humorless to me and maybe I'd like her better if she had some lightness once in awhile.  Her 'wit' is of the putdown variety but mostly lacking self-awareness which at least her grandmother exhibits from time to time.

[lucindabelle]

I think a lot of the humor is in the delivery.

Violet's lines would be snarky and obnoxious if she didn't deliver them with an air of bewilderment and gentility. "does it get cold on the moral high ground" would sound so different in mary's catty tone.

mrs. patmore always signals her frustration and eye rolls in her barbs.

mary's humor is very dry and seemingly less friendly.

 

think about it: violet saying the same thing about the monkey typing, or mrs. patmore, would be lovable.

[Roseanna]

Does Mary care about what's best for Tom and Sybbie or is she just glad to have her trusted ally and admirer returned to her fold?

 

Actually I do believe that she does. In S5 she was whining about losing "her trusted ally and admirer", but she seems to have outgrown it as seen that she admitted that Tom would have "every right" to keep Sybil in America (she said it after his return, but I don't doubt her sincerity).

 

If there is anybody who is confident that he can change Mary's opinion, as seen in the matter what to do with Drewes although if I were Mary I would have been hurt that Tom ​had participated in deciding the matter behind my back, when there was no hurry to do it. Of course the result was clear after Cora won Robert over for although Mary is a half-owner, Robert has so far had the final say.  

 

I don't find it odd that Mary is willing to work with Tom, but irl it would be often cause troubles, if the former superior or mentor worked under the new boss. In fact, I have seen only women succeed to do it, never men who have a greater sense of hierarchy. Tom must e a very rare man and I must confess that I hope that he would have some edges left.

 

I also find it odd that there was no mention if Tom gets his former salary or not. He gets free housing and food in Downton, but does he simply send the bill to Downton when he buys new clothes or goes to a pub? I guess that adult children like Rose had some kind of allowance whom they could use how they pleased, but Tom is only in-law.   

[madam magpie]

Well, I certainly noticed about a decade ago when catty women reappeared in British productions with a vengeance ... Feminism (Sisterhood is powerful, etc.) had sort of ruined the old-fashioned ambitious women are bitches memes, etc. that were common in my childhood, pre-feminism, when business women were not uncommonly depicted as underhanded, husband-stealing man-eaters etc. See "The Women"

Not to get into a fight about feminism, but not much has changed except that laws are different, the shrewish harpies talk about it more, and there's safety in numbers. The perceptions are still pretty strong. Ambitious, hard, outspoken, snarky women are still considered bitches to many people, and I think that Mary is off-putting to many of her haters because she's not nice, smiling, soft, and sweet like many (women and men) expect women to be. She's a snob, for sure, but there's a lot of evidence on the show that she's also loyal, loving, and smart. Yet I mostly see people denigrate her for not showing enough of the latter or being insincere when she does. Women can be many things, so can men, and one can be both a snob with a biting wit who doesn't gel with her sister AND a good friend who fell deeply in love, cares for people close to her, and is kind to the ones she loves simply because she loves them. There's no evidence that Mary is using Tom or Anna or Carson for her own gain, and she clearly cared deeply for both Matthew and Sybil and grieves for them still.

Edited January 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[TheGreenKnight]

Ambitious, hard, outspoken, snarky women are still considered bitches to many people, and I think that Mary is off-putting to many of her haters because she's not nice, smiling, soft, and sweet like many (women and men) expect women to be.

I doubt most of the people who dislike Mary are misogynists. Sometimes a character is disliked because they are unlikable. If Mary really was this glamorous, witty, deadpan snarker that people make her out to be, I'd probably enjoy her since those are the characters I usually gravitate to in most shows, books, etc.

[SusanSunflower]

The only people Mary seems to like much are syncophants ... oh, and men and servants. That doesn't necessarily make her a misogynist either ... nor does her snarky wit make her a feminist.  Scarlett O'Hara, imho, is worthy of loathing. Mary lives in her little Universe as Queen thereof, when she might venture out, take a risk, have some fun, raise some hell, by doing something, beyond court battles with her sister and the tedium of keeping her many suitors wanting more. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[madam magpie]

I doubt most of the people who dislike Mary are misogynists. Sometimes a character is disliked because they are unlikable. If Mary really was this glamorous, witty, deadpan snarker that people make her out to be, I'd probably enjoy her since those are the characters I usually gravitate to in most shows, books, etc.

Me too, and I think she's great. In fact, I don't know anyone in person who hates her or thinks she's a terrible person, actually. My friends and I all do consider her a snob, and some people like that more or less than others. But everyone I know considers her sharp, funny, lovely with Anna and Sybil, and pretty bitchy to Edith. So the notion that she's disliked by some simply because she's universally unlikable is also clearly untrue. It's all just opinion, which is based on each person's own ideology and personality. And like the notion that most people are a little bit racist, I think most people are a little bit sexist too. Misogyny is more dramatic than I'd go, but subconscious prejudice against smart, pretty women with a bite to them? Absolutely.

The only people Mary seems to like much are syncophants ...

SusanSunflower: So you see Anna, Matthew, Violet, and Sybil as sycophants?? You and I definitely don't understand that word to mean the same thing. Edited January 28, 2016 by madam magpie

[Ina123]

I loved the dinner scene between Mary and Talbot. Unlike most everyone else, I thought the sexual tension was there but it was very "upper crust". I felt so much chemistry. It seemed both were playing hard to get with each knowing they will eventually be together.

[TheGreenKnight]

Misogyny is more dramatic than I'd go, but subconscious prejudice against smart, pretty women with a bite to them? Absolutely.

I find this a pretty decisive, judgmental thing to say just because someone doesn't agree with your perception of a character on a TV show. Opinions about Mary have always been divided, and it has nothing to do with sexism. I could think of other things to say, but I don't want to insult you just because I disagree with you like you have.

[SusanSunflower]

None of those I named ever called her out ... ultimately, yes, that's synchophatic behavior ... must not displease the Queen ... peace in the valley must be maintained.  Did I include Sybil or Violet? No, I didn't. Oh, gosh. They are/were women neither are/were reliably under her command. hmmm. 

Tom isn't actually Mary's equal, nor it Carson, nor was Matthew ... see how that works ... that was my point 

Mary's appreciation of, affection for and interest in Sybil increased exponentially after her death. As far as I recall little sister Sybil didn't really often blip Mary's radar while alive ... except for the elopement ... and like Edith's letter, that endangered the family name. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[lucindabelle]

I like Mary. I also like Edith. Mary cracks me up. She IS beautiful and smart and all those things so no need for her to pretend she isn't. Sure, she's a little oblivious but she was raised to be. I accept Carson's view of her more than Mrs. Hughes'-- she was a guinea a minute as a little girl.

The scene where she apologized to Carson because she pulled rank and then broke down deeply affected me.

also, she did 't really REJECT Edith at Sybil's deathbed-- Edith hadn't said let's do better but do you think we'll do better, and Mary answered not the subtext but the literal question, "I doubt it." She was a realist. And then she said let's love each other now, and hugged her.

 

I don't doubt for a second that push comes to shove Mary would support Edith. The shenanigans of the first season have blown away.

[Ina123]

She's a snob, for sure, but there's a lot of evidence on the show that she's also loyal, loving, and smart. Yet I mostly see people denigrate her for not showing enough of the latter or being insincere when she does. Women can be many things, so can men, and one can be both a snob with a biting wit who doesn't gel with her sister AND a good friend who fell deeply in love, cares for people close to her, and is kind to the ones she loves simply because she loves them. There's no evidence that Mary is using Tom or Anna or Carson for her own gain, and she clearly cared deeply for both Matthew and Sybil and grieves for them still.

 

Well said.

[madam magpie]

I find this a pretty decisive, judgmental thing to say just because someone doesn't agree with your perception of a character on a TV show. Opinions about Mary have always been divided, and it has nothing to do with sexism. I could think of other things to say, but I don't want to insult you just because I disagree with you like you have.

I've always thought it had some to do with sexism. Not everyone. Maybe you're a super-enlightened exception. But as a general rule, definitely. It's all about perception; that's why we like or dislike what we do, so our subconscious prejudices always come into play. There are actually a lot of studies to back up what I'm saying, though it's certainly all open to interpretation. Not sure why you find that so offensive, but like Lady Mary, I'm not one to spend a lot of time explaining myself.

[lucindabelle]

In fairness it's perfectly possible to dislike Mary without being sexist. I happen to like her but I can see how others wouldn't.

I'm guessing people get touchy because there's literally no rebuttal when someone ascribes a motive to your unconscious; they can just keep saying you were unaware of it. :)

[madam magpie]

None of those I named ever called her out ... ultimately, yes, that's synchophatic behavior ... must not displease the Queen ... peace in the valley must be maintained. Did I include Sybil or Violet? No, I didn't. Oh, gosh. They are/were women neither are/were reliably under her command. hmmm.

Tom isn't actually Mary's equal, nor it Carson, nor was Matthew ... see how that works ... that was my point

Mary's appreciation of, affection for and interest in Sybil increased exponentially after her death. As far as I recall little sister Sybil didn't really often blip Mary's radar while alive ... except for the elopement ... and like Edith's letter, that endangered the family name.

I really have no understanding of what you're trying to convey. Carson and Tom aren't Mary's equals, no. So what? Matthew was also not her equal; he was her superior. Again, so what? A sycophant is someone who tries to raise his or her stature by flattering or following after important people, a suck-up. Thomas is often sycophantic. You said Mary only seems to like sycophants. I objected. I don't know what else you mean.

Also, I beg to differ about Sybil. Everyone adored Sybil when she was alive, as I recall. She was the scandalous little sister, yes, but they all fawned over her and treated her like the traditional beloved baby of the family. Granted I haven't watched those seasons in awhile, but that's how I remember it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[lucindabelle]

In fairness it's perfectly possible to dislike Mary without being sexist. I happen to like her but I can see how others wouldn't.

I'm guessing people get touchy because there's literally no rebuttal when someone ascribes a motive to your unconscious; they can just keep saying you were unaware of it. :)

[Kohola3]

She is beautiful yes, but vapid?? Are you sure you know what that word means?

Hmm, wait let me check my dictionary. Vapid:  Insipid, flat, dull, tedious. 

Tediously acting a snob under nearly all situations and showing disdain for pretty much anybody not Queen Mary;  flat-faced upper-crust air of superiority and assumption that she’s smarter than anyone else;  insipid and repetitive situations where she feels that her word is the last and only correct one. 

Mary learned well: beautiful but vapid.  And not just a little prejudiced, either.

[helenamonster]

It's amazing to see and hear the actors when not in character. To me, Thomas always looks like a vampire with the milk white skin and black slicked-back hair.  In normal dress and hair Rob is a handsome dude.  Same with Jim Carter - Carson's stick-up-his-rear attitude drives me nuts but I love to watch him when he's not in character.

I guess that's what defines good actors - they are not just playing themselves in a role but creating totally different characters.

 

I think that quality is particularly inherent to British actors, moreso than American ones. I can't remember if I read it here or somewhere else, but I remember seeing someone online talking about how British actors generally are not afraid to not look good, physically or in terms of character, in their acting. I feel like there are always rumors/blind items going around for actors on American television shows complaining about their character's arc because it doesn't make them look good, and obviously a lot of American shows feature characters super glammed up in situations where it wouldn't make any sense for them to be so. But British actors in general just seem very dedicated to the physical and emotional transformation that is necessary to deliver a good performance. This is obviously a generalization but it's something I really respect, and I think it's very true on this show.

 

I suspect, by the way, that the reason Mary noticed Gwen's face enough at one time to vaguely remember it years later is because Gwen is very attractive and Mary is the type of competitive woman who always notes the presence of another good-looking woman.

 

I doubt this. When Gwen was at Downton, she was a servant, so even if Mary did see her face while she was working, she wouldn't have considered a maid competition. And now Gwen is married, so again not any kind of competition for Mary. Most likely Mary saw Gwen with Anna, since the two of them spent a lot of time together when Gwen was in service.

[Roseanna]

Hmm, wait let me check my dictionary. Vapid:  Insipid, flat, dull, tedious. 

Tediously acting a snob under nearly all situations and showing disdain for pretty much anybody not Queen Mary;  flat-faced upper-crust air of superiority and assumption that she’s smarter than anyone else;  insipid and repetitive situations where she feels that her word is the last and only correct one. 

Mary learned well: beautiful but vapid.  And not just a little prejudiced, either.

 

I wouldn't go so far but I think that, although Mary has many admirable qualities, has a petty mind and afraid to take risks. 

 

But I accuse for it mostly Fellowes who denied her great challenges which only can a person to grow.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Roseanna

[madam magpie]

Hmm, wait let me check my dictionary. Vapid: Insipid, flat, dull, tedious.

Tediously acting a snob under nearly all situations and showing disdain for pretty much anybody not Queen Mary; flat-faced upper-crust air of superiority and assumption that she’s smarter than anyone else; insipid and repetitive situations where she feels that her word is the last and only correct one.

Mary learned well: beautiful but vapid. And not just a little prejudiced, either.

That actually sounds like a lot of people on the Internet to me...comments sections and such. But what vapid means is more like blank, flat, lacking liveliness, empty. It's not really a straight synonym for boring. For instance, something vapid usually is boring, but something boring isn't necessarily vapid. I get that people think Mary is boring. To each his own. But no, I'd never call her vapid. She's quite lively, animated, and expressive. And she is pretty. I'll give you that. She learned how to do that well for sure. And she's most definitely a snob and exhibits class prejudice.

On the other hand, Cora can be vapid...

Edited January 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[SusanSunflower]

I'm not sure I've ever hated a fictional character, maybe Uriah Heep when I was a teenager, but actually he was pitiable and loathsome. 

Mary's simply not.all.that.

Yes, I'm far from convinced she's a "nice person" or particularly intelligent.  She lacks curiosity and enthusiasm and initiative. 

Even in her quest to "get her own way" she tend to bully rather than win on points. She "bullied' Matthew to the point I feared she might poison her marriage. She's poisoned her relationship with Edith. She's a bulldozer. 

 

Oh, I just remembered, she denied being an avid equestrian at her dinner with Henry ... I guess that was too stereotypic for a woman of her station.  ETA: Which made me laugh, as did impressing him with her announcement that she had a career as estate manager ... she was trying so hard to be "thoroughly modern Millie" in light of the praise Gwen and Edith had received. 

 

Cora was vapid for most several years ... hence the laudanum jokes.

But she's often rallied to be thoughtful, even perceptive ... and she's generally been outwardly caring, although her obliviousness wrt to Edith and Sybil at time was baffling ... laudanum. 

ETA:  Actually I attributed Cora's vapid qualities to years of suffering Violet's disapproval ... she had surrendered years ago ... only free to be herself in her bedroom with her loving husband.  oh, and laudanum.

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Constantinople]

I realized that Daisy and Mr. Mason is a retread/rerun of Mrs. Patmore getting her brother on the war memorial ... which might explain why Daisy thinks that ear-splitting whining might be effective and badgering Cora might work ... even though Mrs. Patmore and everyone downstairs should have taught Daisy better manners. because: No one every actually manages to get themselves fired at Downton EVER ... blerg.

 

Good catch that Daisy/Mason/farm is a rerun of Patmore/nephew/memorial.

As for getting fired

Ethel was fired by Mrs. Hughes when she found Ethel in bed with Major Soon-To-Be-Killed-In-The-War-Leaving-Ethel-Knocked-Up

Edna was fired twice by the Carson/Hughes duumvirate, first as a housemaid after making inappropriate advances towards Tom, then, after she returned as a lady's maid, for date raping Tom.

I think Jimmy was given the boot for being found in bed with Duckface during the Great Fire of Season 5 (the same time Edith was saved by Thomas after she nearly burned the house down).

Of course it also depends what one means by fired or let go, and whether the characters are being ridiculously self-sacrificing for the greater good of the oh so wonderful Crawleys.

I believe Moseley was let go after Matthew pioneered the concept of street pizza.

Lang was told, in essence, to beat it because he was suffering from PTSD after serving King & Country in the Great War.

Jane left after Robert made out with her while Cora was near death from the Spanish flu.

The Drewes were essentially fired as tenants

Farmer Drake wasn't fired, but he would have been dead if Violet and Robert got their way.

[RedHawk]

The thing is prejudice varies with the environment and subject and hatred of all.things.French has surged and waned in England for centuries as various wars and competitions have complicated the relationship between them, so being taught to hate the French by xenophobic or francophobic tutor seems plausible.  France and things French have not been mentioned before that I remember.

 

Edith supposedly went on the trip to Switzerland with Rosamund "to improve her French". Cora wondered something about "Why didn't they just go to France then?" and Violet had some snarky-fun remark about how they'd then have to interact with the French. 

[SusanSunflower]

Good points

A lot of people have left but I couldn't remember anyone actually being dismissed without reference except Edna, who never stayed gone, was given endless assist in "contacting" bio-dad's parents.  Her unmarried pregnancy would not have been "fixed" with a reference which she did not deserve, since she got in "trouble' deliberately enough. 

Jane invented some crisis that necessitated leaving -- and Robert paid for her son's schooling -- and I'd guess she got a glowing reference. 

But, you're right, I don't remember most of them, and mostly remember the "soft-hearted" decisions to not ruin lives. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

She's quite lively, animated, and expressive.

 

She was such with Pamuk and with Matthew and the last time in the pig scene. Nowadays her face is almost immobile and she as if plasters the smile in her face. She is natural only with Anna and Tom but even with them she isn't not lively, natural or expressive. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Roseanna

[JudyObscure]

Ambitious, hard, outspoken, snarky women are still considered bitches to many people, and I think that Mary is off-putting to many of her haters because she's not nice, smiling, soft, and sweet like many (women and men) expect women to be.

 

I've considered myself a strong feminist all my life but I've never subscribed to the idea, that because I believe women are equal to men, that I have to like all of them, or, especially, that I have to admire a certain type of woman more than any other. 

 

I freely admit that I do like nice, sweet women better than hard ones who say hurtful things.   I don't know when the idea got started that sarcastic, ambitious women were better or stronger feminists than other women; that the Scarlet O'Haras were more feminist or more admirable than the Miss Melanies . There are all sorts of courage and quietly facing illness or poverty can take just as much courage as taking a gun into battle. It seems almost another form of misogyny to admire most the women who act most like men. 

 

As for beauty, intelligence, and wit, those are separate qualities that have very little to do with how much I admire someone.  Anna isn't portrayed as particularly beautiful, smart of witty but I still like her.

Edited January 28, 2016 by JudyObscure

[Roseanna]

As for beauty, intelligence, and wit, those are separate qualities that have very little to do with how much I admire someone. 

 

Elizabeth Bennet had those qualities and Mary Crawford had those as well, but only Elizabeth was presented as admirable whereas Mary was presented as lacking moral sense by Jane Austen. 

[madam magpie]

I've considered myself a strong feminist all my life but I've never subscribed to the idea, that because I believe women are equal to men, that I have to like all of them, or, especially, that I have to admire a certain type of woman more than any other.

I freely admit that I do like nice, sweet women better than hard ones who say hurtful things. I don't know when the idea got started that sarcastic, ambitious women were better or stronger feminists than other women; that the Scarlet O'Haras were more feminist or more admirable than the Miss Melanies . There are all sorts of courage and quietly facing illness or poverty can take just as much courage as taking a gun into battle. It seems almost another form of misogyny to admire most the women who act most like men.

As for beauty, intelligence, and wit, those are separate qualities that have very little to do with how much I admire someone. anna isn't portrayed as particularly beautiful, smart of witty but is till like her.

I find it super interesting that because I said people have subconscious bias, we've moved into who's a better feminist. There is no better or worse woman or feminist as far as I'm concerned. I like Sybil and Anna and Gwen as much as I like Mary and Violet. I adore Mrs. Patmore and Mrs. Hughes. Daisy bugs me because she's young and lacks self-control, but I admire her balls. And Edith...Oy. Poor Edith. I just want her to win. The point is that ALL types of women are ok: the soft sweet ones...the snarky bitchy ones...the crabby old ladies...the mouthy kitchen maids. They can all be whatever kind of woman they want. I don't dislike Anna for not being sarcastic, and I don't dislike Mary for not being sweet. It has nothing to do with which one of them is better. They both have good and bad qualities, like real people. For all its faults, this show often does that really well.

She was such with Pamuk and with Matthew and the last time in the pig scene. Nowadays her face is almost immobile and she as if plasters the smile in her face. She is natural only with Anna and Tom but even with them she isn't not lively, natural or expressive.

I think Mary is very lonely and sad. She's not over Matthew and she's pushing through. That's definitely changed her behavior.

Edited January 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[SusanSunflower]

sorry -- thought I'd canceled that 

Scarlet is worthy of loathing, Mary is not ... I don't like her much but nuf said. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower