S02.E01: Rise Of The Villains: Damned If You Do...

[Philbert]

 

I don't get it.  If Penguin couldn't get anything on Loeb because he was 'too good', then why does Loeb hate Gordon?

 

I took that to mean that Loeb simply lacked the petty vices (gambling, women, alcohol, stealing) that Penguin could use to directly blackmail him. That's a bit ironic because Loeb is a petty vindictive little man who's persecution of Gordon was pointless and ultimately resulted in the end of his police career.

[Delphi]

My takeaway is that the GCPD needs a better human resources department/union rep I mean, Jim has had more promotions and demotion in the past year then I've ever seen. That is not job security. Also Capt. Essen might be the only not corrupt member of the department. Because Jim's morals seem to be skewed lately. He didn't want to shoot the crazy guy with the sword because of paperwork but it's totally cool to pull a gun on the street youth? He didn't seem to care about paperwork last year.

I still love Bruce and Alfred. And I thought it was funny that at first Alfred was against Bruce using the anarchist cookbook for an actual plan and then jumped on board. Then was hesitant to detonate then got all excited. I personally don't have a problem with Bruce being so ahead of schedule. In the comics he started training at 14. Plus his inability to try his own name for a password shows he's still fallible.

But I really need Jim to stop going to Bruce to apologize for not being able to fulfill his promise. The kids an orphan, he's used to disappointment. Plus you've already told him that you couldn't do it like eighteen times. How could he possibly have faith that Jim would make good on his word.

I hope we haven't said goodbye to the clocktower penthouse. Because I love sets and that one was fantastic. If Barb doesn't use it they can give it to Selina for or something.

I enjoyed Nygma's brief appearance and the actor does really good portraying a descent into madness.

The Arkham moments were good. Not sure how I feel about Tabitha and Theo quite yet, but maybe that'll change.

I don't miss Fish, but I do miss Falcone and Renee.

Goodbye Gotham Central hello Gotham: Rise of the villains.

Eta: I don't know if the plot is enough to keep me hooked but the set and costume design and cinematography definitely is.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Delphi

[immortalfrieza]

Eh, Barbara is great right now but it's always easier to play evil role. So, I'm not giving too much props to that. A show making the significant other interesting is something I would applaud.

Yes. They're really not writing Barbara any better, they're just going through the stock "Crazy Girlfriend" to "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" to "Psycho Ex-Girlfriend" tropes in order, and it's only with the last that they seem to be putting any effort into whatsoever. As brick stone stupid as the character was last season there's no way in hell she could become anything but a comically inept criminal, she definitely can't be a criminal mastermind without the writers basically dropping Barbara's entire season 1 characterization entirely and making her an entirely different character in another character's skin to do it.

 

On another note, Barbara must have the absolute worst defense lawyer in the universe. When Barbara called and tried to make Lee the crazy one I was thinking that's EXACTLY what any competent defense lawyer would have tried to do, to pass Lee as a clingy jealous girlfriend trying to eliminate the competition. Considering it would have ultimately come down to Lee's word against Barbara's it been enough doubt cast there to get Barbara off.

 

Mebbe Loeb is "too good" at covering his tracks? Loeb was able to hide his psycho daughter's murder of his wife for years until Jim and Harvey butted in.

Yep. Loeb is corrupt to the core but extremely good at hiding it and Penguin knew it, so he was left with either killing him (which would have gotten in the way of Gordon being reinstated but I'm sure Penguin had another way to do that in mind) or getting Loeb to resign, and even if he wasn't so good at hiding it still would have been quicker and easier to go with his plan here.

 

OT:I'm pretty sure that Alfred knew about the secret cave and probably the passcode but knew that the road Bruce was going down wasn't healthy and thus would rather he not keep digging and move on so he didn't open either for him and kept trying to discourage him in every way he could think of, and Bruce was a kid too obsessively fixated on his father and what is behind that door to calm down and actually THINK rather than blindly putting in anything that came to mind. I like how Bruce has been presented so far, it shows the drive that eventually makes him Batman growing but shows how incompetent he really was at the time and the frustrations having that sort of level of drive before he had the training necessary to actually do anything with it.

Edited September 22, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[Chicago Redshirt]

Mebbe Loeb is "too good" at covering his tracks? Loeb was able to hide his psycho daughter's murder of his wife for years until Jim and Harvey butted in.

 

Speaking of which, doesn't Penguin know about this? IIRC, he had one of the gatekeepers of psycho daughter kill the other. I don't know if the powers that be are forgetting their own continuity, don't want to burden new viewers with having to know anything that happened in Season One, or if it's just a sign that Penguin just enjoys messing with people.

 

My takeaway is that the GCPD needs a better human resources department/union rep I mean, Jim has had more promotions and demotion in the past year then I've ever seen. That is not job security. 

Another thing from last season that apparently went by the wayside: Jim bullied his way into becoming president of the police officers' union. No way would a police commissioner try to fire the head of the police union for that pennyante bs, let alone succeed. I mean, this is a department where police officers are literally on mobsters' payrolls, selling drugs, etc., but grabbing another cop is a fireable offense?

[Chaos Theory]

I don't get it. If Penguin couldn't get anything on Loeb because he was 'too good', then why does Loeb hate Gordon?

You can bee a good guy AND a complete assholes. Plus it seems good and evil are relative terms in Gotham. Loeb may not have done anything blackmail worthy and yet he prefers fat useless dirty cops the a moralist who is more like him (just like looking in a mirror) then either wants to admit. Edited September 22, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Cthulhudrew]

They had the perfect setup for Nygma to become the Joker last season; brilliant crime scene investigator, constantly dismissed and overlooked by his peers. What better reason to become a villain than to be able to use his criminal (and csi) genius but to create the perfect crimes to stymie the police? And then, flattered and flummoxed when they prove unable to solve them, he begins to leave ever more blatant clues (his "riddles") in order to try and at least help them along (and then they still can't do it, at least not until a certain "bat" themed detective arrives on the scene and brings a fun new element to the game?)

 

But instead, what do we get? The meek guy who falls into unrequited love and, in a moment of passion driven by misplaced overprotectiveness, kills someone, and then he turns into a multiple personality homicidal maniac. Much less interesting and nuanced, IMO.

 

On the other hand, since they seem to have moved all the drama out of the police station (at least for an episode) by shunting Gordon, Bullock, Essen, and- apparently- Thompson off into other realms of interaction, that didn't leave Nygma anyone else to play off of, so let's give him a second personality to talk with?

 

This show.

[DollEyes]

 

I don't get it. If Penguin couldn't get anything on Loeb because he was 'too good', then why does Loeb hate Gordon?

 

  The way I see it, it's because Loeb is used to controlling dirty cops who've got something to lose; otoh, since Gordon still has his moral compass & seems much less corrupt than the others, that makes him a wild card to Loeb and hence, much more dangerous.

Edited September 22, 2015 by DollEyes

[Milz]

Speaking of which, doesn't Penguin know about this? IIRC, he had one of the gatekeepers of psycho daughter kill the other. I don't know if the powers that be are forgetting their own continuity, don't want to burden new viewers with having to know anything that happened in Season One, or if it's just a sign that Penguin just enjoys messing with people.

 

Yep! Pengy was at the house with Loeb's daughter and was a witness to the whole thing.

[Artsda]

Crazy Barbara was awesome loved her. What a 180 she's done. Arkham scenes were so fun. 

 

Loved Al and Bruce blowing open the door.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Gotham Starts Over This season of Gotham is supposed to have more villains. But does that have to mean less Bullock?

[Traveller519]

I was glad to see that, even as a prisoner, Barbra wouldn't be caught wearing pants. She did get a lot of focus this show, which I hope is mitigated as the season progresses. I think she's great within the limits of a supporting character. I'm very uncertain on Jerome becoming the Joker. He's a little too on the nose for me. He's been added to the masthead, but I'd really like it if he was mysteriously taken out, but whomever would become the true Joker.

 

Something tells me Nygma is going to make everyone's lives miserable this season, including his own.

[immortalfrieza]

I feel I have to correct this part from the Previously.TV post:
 

"The letter starts out vague, but then it has some particularly relevant advice for young master Bruce. From beyond the grave, Bruce's father tells him to choose between happiness and truth. And he recommends truth -- unless, of course, Bruce were to feel a true calling of some sort."

Bruce's father recommends happiness, not truth.

Edited September 22, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[blackwing]

I enjoyed this a lot.  Last year I found watching Gotham to be a chore at times, but I'm liking this season so far.  I think it has a lot of promise.  I really hope that Lee gets more to do than just being the concerned girlfriend.  I'd like to see her battle Barbara again.

 

Dang, man. James Frain can't EVER be a good guy. Like, it's impossible.

He also played a bad vampire in "True Blood", although the character he played was much more evil in the books.  He played Thomas Cromwell on "The Tudors", and he wasn't necessarily evil although like everyone else he was very ambitious.  However, on "24", he played Paul Raines, a nice innocent guy who got caught up in all the drama.  

[mccartygirl]

James Frain will always be Forney to me. 

 

I could watch the Penguin/Victor show all day! 

 

Loving Cameron Monaghan in this roll. I'm so excited that the fall season has started. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by mccartygirl

[AConspiracy]

They should have made the passcode BOSCO.

[Timetoread]

I liked it.  Loved Babs as a villain.  I didn't see this as a rework, I saw it as a plan that came to fruition.  This is who she always was but she was trying to be normal and thus that deer in the headlights look she always had.  I like the Joker and think he's perfect.  Babs is going to end up as Harley Quinn, right?  Penguin was great as always.

 

BTW, I believe that Bruce didn't figure out the password was his name.  He, like Batman, is so controlled and logical, he doesn't connect with pure emotion and love.  That his father would make his password the name of what he loved most in the world went over his head.  Surprised that Alfred didn't figure it out though.

 

ETA:  Is it just me?  Even though I think he's pretty homely, I think James Frain is hella sexy.  I LOVE him anytime he graces my screen.  Just me?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Timetoread

[Syndicate]

Just finished watching the premiere.  Thought it was so much better than any of the episodes last season.  There was the sense that it's going somewhere in terms of continuity with all of the characters.  No villain of the week was the best part, and I think the absence of that is what made this episode quite good.  I'm keeping an eye out on Nygma!  Trouble is a comin.'

[TresGatos]

"The cinematography and production design in this episode alone are Emmy worthy."

 

The premiere reminded me so much of how much I loved the production design and its element of being out of time & space that I checked to see if they were nominated for an Emmy and they were, in production design, but they lost to Game of Thrones, which, I hear, has some pretty spectacular natural scenery to work with. I loved the street scene that read 1970s to me, espeially the ATM sign advertising $10 bills and the part where Barbara wanted a phone and te next scene she has this big, black rotary phone in her cell I just laughed out loud. Loved her entrance into Arkham with the rolling vintage looking luggage and sunglasses, that part seemed really kind of 1950s with a "Women in Prison" sort of ethos. Loved it! I also loved the opening with Perfect Day though I really wanted to return to it with the end and the refrain, "You just keep me hanging on."

[Timetoread]

and evil mirror Nygma who is like a hundred times hotter than regular Nygma - is it just the lack of glasses?

 

Naw, it's the swag.  Swag is EVERYTHING!

[Lantern7]

They should have made the passcode BOSCO.

"His name was George Constanza. He murdered my parents."

 

Oh, and I liked the dorky high-five between Bruce and Alfred. Very cute.

[HalcyonDays]

and evil mirror Nygma who is like a hundred times hotter than regular Nygma - is it just the lack of glasses?

 

And voice. His voice and mannerisms were completely different. Kudos to Cory Michael Smith for doing such a great job.

[Philbert]

 

And voice. His voice and mannerisms were completely different. Kudos to Cory Michael Smith for doing such a great job.

 

I think we're looking at the split between Edward Nygma and the eventual Riddler. It's a very nice demarcation.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

From the recap:Detective Bullock now appears to be a bartender. This could be the start of a series of changes in which Gotham turns into a show about a bar owned by Donal Logue. Cross your fingers!

Fingers crossed. I already have a very specific casting idea about a brother he might turn out to have.

 

Seriously if this season means this much less Bullock I'm outa here.

Edited September 23, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[Kathemy]

I'm happy they got Frain for the show. He's always great.

[cali1981]

I'm happy they got Frain for the show. He's always great.

Abolutely! James Frain is always a plus in any show or film that he's in. He plays oily as well as anyone but has also played many non-villains. Of course there was True Detective

and his totally corrupt cop who caps Taylor Kitsch from behind

. I hope that the stuff written for him is worthy of his talent. As far as the episode goes, it was excellent. Batshit crazy Barb is going to be a lot of fun to watch as will the gradually unfolding debuts of the Joker and the Riddler.

Edited September 23, 2015 by stacey
Spoiler Tagged for another show

[beedub]

And, Frain also did a brief turn as (you guessed it) a villain on Agent Carter.

The Gotham music department must have been bummed to find out that Fear The Walking Dead used "Perfect Day" one day before them.

Edited September 23, 2015 by beedub

[Kathemy]

I think  his best role was as Cromwell on The Tudors. It was also a role where I really didn't see him as a clear-cut villain, more of a morally gray, brutal Machiavellian style politician in an age where everyone seemed to be that way. It's sort of a given that his character on this show won't be anywhere near as complex but his acting brings added flavor to everything.

[Sakura12]

James Frain played a sort of villain on Orphan Black, but turned around in the last minute and helped the clones. 

[foreverevolving]

I think  his best role was as Cromwell on The Tudors. It was also a role where I really didn't see him as a clear-cut villain, more of a morally gray, brutal Machiavellian style politician in an age where everyone seemed to be that way. It's sort of a given that his character on this show won't be anywhere near as complex but his acting brings added flavor to everything.

That's where he looks familiar!! I was going crazy trying to remember which show I saw him in and just couldn't remember!

[Biggie B]

I don't think that Harvey is telling the truth. He might be sober and claim to be doing well, but...I really thought that after Jim left the bar, Harvey was going to pour himself a shot. He's a great character, and I hope he is well utilized. I don't want him to fade away.

 

Agree with everyone about the Riddler in the mirror - HOT, HOT, HOT!!!

Edited September 23, 2015 by Biggie B

[Lazlo]

Yes. They're really not writing Barbara any better, they're just going through the stock "Crazy Girlfriend" to "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" to "Psycho Ex-Girlfriend" tropes in order, and it's only with the last that they seem to be putting any effort into whatsoever. As brick stone stupid as the character was last season there's no way in hell she could become anything but a comically inept criminal, she definitely can't be a criminal mastermind without the writers basically dropping Barbara's entire season 1 characterization entirely and making her an entirely different character in another character's skin to do it.

 

I love crazy evil Barbara too and I think Erin Richards is great but this is an issue for me too, if to a lesser extent. Based on what we've seen Barbara just doesn't have the brains to be a master manipulator of anyone more sophisticated than the 'gorilla' she won over with a smile.

 

I do like the character but seeing her as evil genius is a stretch.

[Chaos Theory]

I love crazy evil Barbara too and I think Erin Richards is great but this is an issue for me too, if to a lesser extent. Based on what we've seen Barbara just doesn't have the brains to be a master manipulator of anyone more sophisticated than the 'gorilla' she won over with a smile.

I do like the character but seeing her as evil genius is a stretch.

But what is her learning curve? I think she has a steap one. She isn't stupid. Deeply unhappy is not the same as stupid. She said it herself she is hardly a criminal mastermind all she is is a girl with issues, Jerome is hardly a mastermind either...a boy with issues. But I think they both could be a whole lot more. All they need is someone with a insight..a dream to guide them. Oh wait!!!!! Edited September 23, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Sakura12]

Barbara herself said she wasn't a criminal mastermind. So I don't think we're supposed to see her as one. She's a crazy woman with many, many issues who seems to have embraced her crazy. I for am loving that and look forward to her storyline this season. 

 

I hope her and Selina get to meet up again, I think they had some fun interaction last season and was her former "roommate". Can you imagine her telling that story to someone. "I used to live with this 15 year old street urchin that I found squatting at my place when I wasn't there. I let her stay because, why not" 

Edited September 23, 2015 by Sakura12

[karasmom]

Much better start to this season than last.  I couldn't stand Fish and I began to fastforward through her scenes during the last few episodes.  I love James Frain so it will be fun to watch him play whatever role he has.  According to Wikipedia, his sister becomes the Tigress and then eventually the Huntress -- not sure if the series is going that route but I got no background for the character than Frain plays.  The Penguin is my favorite villain on the show, but I also like the way they are playing the Joker.  I'm looking forward to this season so far.

Edited September 23, 2015 by karasmom

[VCRTracking]

Kristen from Days of Our Lives had a similar arc where she started off good but then went totally batshit crazy evil.

Edited September 23, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Biggie B]

Double post, please ignore.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Biggie B

[marihunc]

I think  his best role was as Cromwell on The Tudors. It was also a role where I really didn't see him as a clear-cut villain, more of a morally gray, brutal Machiavellian style politician in an age where everyone seemed to be that way. It's sort of a given that his character on this show won't be anywhere near as complex but his acting brings added flavor to everything.

 

For me he's still Villefort from the 2002 The Count of Monte Cristo... It was so much fun to see Jim Caviezel's Count take him down :D

[Chicago Redshirt]

Anyone out there remember the short-lived superhero show "The Cape" on NBC about 4-5 years back? Frain played a villain called Chess with a split personality. I figure he's basically reprising that role here. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

Anyone out there remember the short-lived superhero show "The Cape" on NBC about 4-5 years back? Frain played a villain called Chess with a split personality. I figure he's basically reprising that role here. 

 

Unfortunately, yes, I do remember watching that.  

 

Frain was also in the short-lived BBC series 'Intruders' -- he was super-creepy in it despite being a kind of crappy show.

[reggiejax]

The Gotham music department must have been bummed to find out that Fear The Walking Dead used "Perfect Day" one day before them.

 

Personally, I think the song was best used in Trainspotting, and they had The Walking Dead and Gotham beat by 19 years. Not that it matters, Hollywood has never been shy about using a song again and again and again, without any regard as to who used it first, or how well one particular film or show used it. Perfect Day in fact has been used in commercials, so any coolness factor was used up long ago.

[Delphi]

Anyone out there remember the short-lived superhero show "The Cape" on NBC about 4-5 years back? Frain played a villain called Chess with a split personality. I figure he's basically reprising that role here.

Frain, Summer Glau and the circus ringleader were the only good parts of that show.

[janie jones]

I loved that when Zaardon jumped up on the table and started ranting, one of the Arkham prisoners was staring up at him transfixed.

That was my favorite part!

[MarkHB]

BTW, I believe that Bruce didn't figure out the password was his name.  He, like Batman, is so controlled and logical, he doesn't connect with pure emotion and love.  That his father would make his password the name of what he loved most in the world went over his head.  Surprised that Alfred didn't figure it out though.

 

I was thinking something similar.  Bruce's pain, shock and horror over the shootings have completely overrun his awareness of how much his parents loved him, to the extent that his own name never even occurred to him.

 

Just finished watching the premiere.  Thought it was so much better than any of the episodes last season.  There was the sense that it's going somewhere in terms of continuity with all of the characters.  No villain of the week was the best part, and I think the absence of that is what made this episode quite good.  I'm keeping an eye out on Nygma!  Trouble is a comin.'

 

I actually didn't mind the procedural / villain-of-the-week elements.  If they want to go longer form, I'd be happy if they layered mini-arcs of 2-4 episodes, like they did with The Ogre, on top of the underlying Penguin / Galavan stories.

 

Did we see Richard Kind (the mayor) in one of the shots in the "This season on Gotham" preview?

[Jediknight]

But what is her learning curve? I think she has a steap one. She isn't stupid. Deeply unhappy is not the same as stupid. She said it herself she is hardly a criminal mastermind all she is is a girl with issues, Jerome is hardly a mastermind either...a boy with issues. But I think they both could be a whole lot more. All they need is someone with a insight..a dream to guide them. Oh wait!!!!!

Someone who has a true calling?  Someone who might be just as insane as them?

 

I know you're not referring to Bruce, but I couldn't pass it up.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Jediknight

[jhlipton]

if it's just a sign that Penguin just enjoys messing with people.

 

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!  We have a winner!

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Frain, Summer Glau and the circus ringleader were the only good parts of that show

The circus ringleader was the great Keith David, always one of the best parts of any show.

[supposebly]

This was a lot of fun.

 

One day, I'd like to see James Frain as a good guy. Just once.

 

I like Gordon better when he's not trying to be perfect. He's much more interesting when he does "the ugly thing". Although I do wonder if there was no other way than going to Oswald who is enjoying his status as head cheese of Gotham. His hair seems to enjoy it too. For now.

 

I never had a problem with Barbara, so while I like her, I don't find her change all that exciting either.

 

Could I adore Bruce and Alfred more? Probably not.

 

I really liked the cutting-back and forth from Bruce reading the letter and Gordon.

 

Why would you hire Todd Stashwick and then kill him off so quickly?

 

I really hope Bullock isn't reduced to distributing sage bartender advice for the rest of the season.

Edited September 26, 2015 by supposebly

[paigow]

I really hope Bullock isn't reduced to distributing sage bartender advice for the rest of the season.

Maybe there will be a Butch / Bullock team up.

[benteen]

This episode was a lot better than I thought it will be.  Whether or not they sustain that momentum is another thing.

 

I'm glad they gave the Barbara character something different to do.  I like Erin Richards.

[Philbert]

 

I really hope Bullock isn't reduced to distributing sage bartender advice for the rest of the season.

 

Your wish is granted...