S04.E09: Chapter Nine: The Piggyback

[Redrum]

7 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

But then El wouldn't have been able to piggyback in to (attempt to) kill him before he simply selected a different/unknown fourth victim and used them to open the final gate, right?

But since her attempt to kill him was apparently a complete failure.... it didn't help.

And yeah, couldn't he have just picked a different unprotected by Kate Bush victim? 

There's a lot of fail points ;)

But I stand by the notion that we wouldn't be in this mess if those meddling kids had just let Max listen to her damn mix tape.

[Brn2bwild]

I'll have more thoughts, but one thing that disappoints me is no Angela.  I was hoping for an ending where Eleven returns to California to pack her things, Angela sees her and starts being terrible again, and all of Eleven's friends appear behind her as she says: "I realize I'm not as social as you are, but that's because I spent the first 10+ years of my life growing up in a lab."  Objects start to rise around her, causing Angela to freak out.  "My birth name is Jane, but my true name is Eleven... and soon the world will know who I am."

Maybe end of Season Five?

[moonb]

Nine extra long episodes and we still don't know how El recognized Will way back in season one. Maybe we'll finally get an answer in season five.

[benteen]

The last thirty minutes were strong and they did a great job setting up the final season. But this episode was WAY too long. I would have preferred more episodes with shorter runtimes. This show doesn't have any business doing a 2 1/2 hour finale and they unnecessarily dragged out a number of scenes with Better Call Saul-like self-indulgence. I almost fell asleep twice while watching it.

It also goes back to the major weakness of the show that I've said since the beginning. The Upside Down world is one of the most boring settings in all of television. There's not much going on there and this season did little to change that. Characters repeat a lot of the same beats and missions over there.

I think overall the season was good and Stranger Things is a fun show to watch 4th of July weekend. But to me this was the weakest of the four seasons of the show.

Edited July 2, 2022 by benteen

[Scout Finch]

I wasn't really worried about the batteries running out in the Walkman as much as I was that the tape would get caught on something inside and unravel a bit. Then, they'd have to scramble to find a pencil or something that fit one of the spools to wind up the slack. 😏 (Okay, Boomer.)

Reunions I was looking forward to the most: Hopper and Joyce, and especially Hopper and El.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Scout Finch

[Redrum]

There was definitely a lot of drag. The Russian plot in particular. And agree that the Upside Down is a weirdly static place. There's demegorgons and evil bats and apparently the town of Hawkins stuck on November first 1983.... and the mind flyer separate from One but.... I feel like this ends in season five with someone suddenly realizing that spraying them with water or sneezing on them destroys things from the Upside Down.

I'm also really unclear how Brenner's research went from teaching little kids to murder Russians from a distance to opening the portal to hell to rescue One.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

As a set up for the final season, it was fine, but it really could have been trimmed. I like both David Harbour and Winona Ryder as actors and I like both characters but most of the Russia plot seemed pointless to me.

I also feel like they lost their nerve in actually killing Max just like they lost their nerve in killing Hopper in Season 3. That being said, Sadie Sink and Caleb McLaughlin did amazing jobs with their scenes. 

I missed Jason dying? I know that Lucas knocked him out but I didn't see Jason die. (I am sure it happened, I just missed it).

Anyway, I will be interested in seeing what they do for the final showdown. I think it's smart that they are doing a longer time jump given the actors' ages and they at least set it up for a longer time jump.

[Brn2bwild]

32 minutes ago, Redrum said:

There was definitely a lot of drag. The Russian plot in particular. And agree that the Upside Down is a weirdly static place. There's demegorgons and evil bats and apparently the town of Hawkins stuck on November first 1983....

We never learned why it was stuck on the day Will disappeared, did we?  Guess that's a Season Five mystery to solve.

[methodwriter85]

22 hours ago, Cranberry said:

Kind of annoyed that Robin's love interest is basically a clone of her, personality-wise, but glad Robin got to flirt a little, I guess?

I do like that Robin's love interest seems to be bisexual (I didn't get the vibe she was with her boyfriend purely because she was a lesbian trying to be closeted), but yeah. I was actually kind of hoping that Robin was going to vibe with the pretty girl who gave them directions at the high school gym/shelter instead. I knew that probably wasn't the case because AmyBeth McNulty is kind of a Netflix name from Anne with an E instead of a newcomer. 

I don't know how I feel about the ending. I really wanted this show to jump to 1988 or 1989 for the final year of the show and I don't see how that's possible. LOL

[JamieLynn832002]

33 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I missed Jason dying? I know that Lucas knocked him out but I didn't see Jason die. (I am sure it happened, I just missed it).

He was lying over where the crack/gate opened and seemed to kind of explode/disolve like Henry did when El sent him to the Upside Down. I don't think I'd have noticed either except I watch with subtitles and it labeled Jason screaming as it happened.

[raven]

It looked to me like Jason was split in two when the portal opened - the opening ran right through him.

[tennisgurl]

It sucks that Vecna/One still more or less got what he wanted and Hawkins is still in trouble, but it’s for the best. Vecna has real final boss energy, he’s basically started all of this, it makes sense he is the  one the gang needs to beat to end it. 

[UGAmp]

I enjoyed this season but the last episode fell a little flat for me. I agree with other posters that the break gave the audience too much time to come up with really amazing theories where none of them came to fruition (yet. I admit some could pan out in S5). But I am getting worried this show could go the way of Lost where the audience/fans are going to come up with better ideas than what is actually planned by the writers/directors in the final season.

I am glad we saw it but the El/ Hopper reunion was almost a letdown. SHE THOUGHT HE WAS DEAD. AND HE JUST WALTZES IN THE DOOR. I understand she had hope he was still alive BUT HE IS ALIVE. RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU. How bout a little more in that moment MBB? And let us see other characters react too, please! Everyone was just like “oh yeah. This guy’s back again. *Shrug*”

Sad to see Eddie go but the writing was on the wall the whole season for him. Gaten and Eddie were a great pairing and I’m sad to lose that. 

Sadie and Caleb really killed it in their scenes. I love them together. Max as a character went from being pretty useless in S2 (imo) to one of my favorites.

I feel like all of the articles before vol. 2 said there’d be five main character deaths:

1) Brenner, 2) Eddie, 3) Jason, 4) “Max”, 5) ???? Who am I missing?? I was shocked the whole Russia crew made it out alive. But my precious Steve lives to see another season.  Yay! 

Edited July 2, 2022 by UGAmp

[Morrigan2575]

This was very emotional,  I cried when Eddie died. 

I found the Russia stuff dreadfully boring and killed the rest of the storyline, I ended up FF through the Russia stuff. I have no idea why they went back to the prison. I did stop to watch when it looked like Hopper was going to die and then the final fight.

Probably an unpopular opinion but, I think Max should have stayed dead. I just hate those last minute cheats. I didn't want her to die but, once they got to the point he started breaking bones I think they should have followed through. Since this is the setup for the last season I think they should have gone full in on the loss for El.

[ch1]

I agree that Max should have stayed dead.  It would have sucked but the writers need to let these deaths start to stick.  Hopper, now Max.  Plus where did El get the ability to stop death?  I mean where did that come from?  She was clinically dead but El apparently bought her back??  

I would give credit to the writers if Max would have been better off dying and El just f’d up playing god.

 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

5 hours ago, moonb said:

Nine extra long episodes and we still don't know how El recognized Will way back in season one. Maybe we'll finally get an answer in season five.

Wasn't that explained, back in S1, that she "saw" him (after he was stuck in the Upside-Down) while visiting the vast darkness of the 'in-between' she remotely views while in a sensory deprivation environment?

Edited July 2, 2022 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think it's smart that they are doing a longer time jump given the actors' ages and they at least set it up for a longer time jump.

I feel like this ending makes it so a time jump makes literally no sense. What, they're just gonna twiddle their thumbs for a couple years with Hawkins cut in half, the upside down pouring in, and Max's soul hidden somewhere? And really the actors aren't gonna look much older by next season than they do this season anyway. A long time jump would have made more sense between seasons 3 and 4.

3 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I was actually kind of hoping that Robin was going to vibe with the pretty girl who gave them directions at the high school gym/shelter instead. 

Same! I really thought they were going there. The Anne with an E girl looks and acts just like Robin and I don't like that lol.

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, Redrum said:

But since her attempt to kill him was apparently a complete failure.... it didn't help.

It wasn't a complete failure, though. They nearly kill Vecna and he's forced to retreat, which is presumably why he doesn't immediately start marching his monsters into Hawkins to carry out his plan for world domination.

8 hours ago, backhometome said:

Will was so shafted this season. I cant even think of what he did that had any importance. Poor Noah.

I think Noah came off quite well in the few important scenes he had this season—quasi-confessing to Mike, opening up to Jonathan—and those scenes did lay out a coherent arc for the character, who goes from finally being out to himself but afraid to let anyone else in on his secret, to verbalizing some version of his true feelings and discovering that there's someone who understands and still loves him, even if it's not the person he might've hoped. What's more, the writing was careful to make Will's contributions technically important to the larger story: because Will convinces Mike of his importance to "El," Mike is able to rally El herself at a crucial moment and turn the tide of the final battle.

But, as with last season, Will's arc is almost too concise. It takes us from A to B without really exploring what it was like to be at A or what B might hold for him, other than "pining and sad" and "pining but maybe a little less sad," respectively. I've come to realize that this may be the Duffers' most consistent weakness as writer-creators: they're so good at putting an unexpected spin on old ideas, and coming up with new and vibrant characters and immediately making the audience love them, but they sometimes get so focused on tidy little Screenwriting 101 story arcs that they play against those strengths instead of playing into them.

I stand by my earlier sense that the biggest issue with season 4 is that the Will, Mike, and El story arcs would all have been better served if the Duffers had made Will and El into popular "normal" kids in California instead of friendless, bullied sadsacks. Then you'd have a stronger reason for Mike to feel alienated from both of them, and to fear that El might reject him as a pathetic loser she's grown beyond. You'd give El a better reason to think that she needed to get her powers back, if Mike seemed to be rejecting her because she'd become an ordinary girl. (If you think about it, "I'm a freak regardless of whether I have any powers" does not lead naturally to the conclusion "Therefore I need to regain my powers!") And you'd give Will an alternate path to reject, if being normal demanded that he hide too much of himself whereas Mike allowed him to be more of the person he truly is.

[QuantumMechanic]

51 minutes ago, ch1 said:

I agree that Max should have stayed dead.  It would have sucked but the writers need to let these deaths start to stick.  Hopper, now Max.  Plus where did El get the ability to stop death?  I mean where did that come from?  She was clinically dead but El apparently bought her back??  

I would give credit to the writers if Max would have been better off dying and El just f’d up playing god.

They said Max's heart stopped for a minute.  So my head canon is that El used her telekinesis to basically do CPR -- to compress/release the heart -- until it got going on its own.  No magic miracle powers needed (beyond astral projection and telekinesis, which are long-established parts of the show).

[TwoBitUsherette]

54 minutes ago, ch1 said:

I agree that Max should have stayed dead.  It would have sucked but the writers need to let these deaths start to stick.  Hopper, now Max.  Plus where did El get the ability to stop death?  I mean where did that come from?  She was clinically dead but El apparently bought her back??  

I would give credit to the writers if Max would have been better off dying and El just f’d up playing god.

I'll join the chorus of "Max should have stayed dead." Losing Sadie Sink would have been rough as she's one of the best actors they have, but continuing to cheat major characters out of death is tired. Either have the conviction to actually let them go, or stop putting them in these fake outs.

Her death could have been such a driving force of getting the younger teens back together for one last stand in season five. I'm scared that Max's coma means that she'll (and possibly Lucas by extension) spend half of next season sidelined, much like Hopper and Joyce were this year.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

This was very emotional,  I cried when Eddie died. 

I found the Russia stuff dreadfully boring and killed the rest of the storyline, I ended up FF through the Russia stuff. I have no idea why they went back to the prison. I did stop to watch when it looked like Hopper was going to die and then the final fight.

Probably an unpopular opinion but, I think Max should have stayed dead. I just hate those last minute cheats. I didn't want her to die but, once they got to the point he started breaking bones I think they should have followed through. Since this is the setup for the last season I think they should have gone full in on the loss for El.

I have to agree. It's like what they did with Hopper - it ends up lessening the great work that, for instance, MBB and CM did (and Sadie Sink, of course) by having the big death scene but not having Max actually die.

I suspect this will be a set up for Max to emerge triumphant against Vecna next season but... it just feels like a cop out. 

All of that being said, the character herself is great and Sadie Sink was just tremendous in this episode. So it's not like I wanted Max to die. But if you are going to go that route, then commit to it.

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I feel like this ending makes it so a time jump makes literally no sense. What, they're just gonna twiddle their thumbs for a couple years with Hawkins cut in half, the upside down pouring in, and Max's soul hidden somewhere? And really the actors aren't gonna look much older by next season than they do this season anyway. A long time jump would have made more sense between seasons 3 and 4.

My thought is that Vecna probably was really wounded and so would need to retreat for a long while to heal up to face Eleven again. But it is complicated by the idea that the Upside Down is basically taking over Hawkins. I could see the government moving the entire town and sealing it off, in the same way that town in Pennsylvania that has a burning underground fire has been abandoned since the 80s.

But I agree that a longer time jump between seasons 3 and 4 would have made more sense. 

[DearEvette]

Ok so the slo mo different cut fights to Running up That Hill' was exiting as hell.  Even Hopper's sword fight was exciting.

Damn it. I am sad about Eddie!  It reminds me of how I felt when Bob got killed.  Just a great new character who got sacrificed.  And even worse, he was never really vindicated.  He was just a tragic figure throughout the whole arc, tba.  Persecuted wrongly and never got his name cleared.  At the very least they could have made his death more worth it.

Jason, otoh, I think he totally deserved it.  He was a frothing vigilante from the start, roving around the town with his little mob.  He had a gun pointed at Lucas, a bullet in the chamber and was ready to shoot for no other reason than he had a fucked up idea in his head that he knew what was going on.   He would have choked Lucas to death with no remorse (and probably had gotten away with itif Erica hadn't interrupted.  Added to that he and his stupid jock friend thought nothing of physically assaulting and threatening an 11 year old girl.  The optics of that bring to mind the whole mindset behind lynchings.  So yeah, I was not at all upset he got obliterated.

Ok so little Vecna's picture he drew of the Mindflayer was the same as the one Will drew in S2?  Ok..show I see you!

Murray is a big damn hero!  Most of the Russia stuff was still boring until Murray fried the Demogogons.

I hate that all Will, Mike and Jonathan got to do was sit by a tank and encourage El.  They were poorly served this season.  But I loved that moment with Jonathan and Will.   And at least Argyle was funny.

Yeah, Lucas, Dustin and Max were really great this episode.  Lucas crying for Erica to get an ambulance.  And oh my god, Dustin telling Mr. Munson about Eddie was so sad. 

But I was good to finally see the whole gang back together, even if it was after everything. El's reunion with Hopper was lovely.  Kinda weird that Joyce looked at El as if she hadn't seen her in awhile, when at the time she left for her 'conference' El was safe at home.

Will saying he still knows what Vecna thinks and how he think that Will will be important in defeating Vecna in the final season.  Since the whole thing began with Will, it'll end with Will. 

[Sakura12]

I did like that they had some humor in the ep with El telling Max she piggybacked from a pizza freezer and Max was like what? lol

I would rather have lost Eddie over Max. I cried for Eddie more when Dustin was telling Eddie's uncle about him.

Since Max mind was empty they will probably have to go find her. We also have one more season so she may still sacrifice herself at the end. Sadie Sink is such a great actress that I don't want to lose her. 

I'm never a fan of the separating everyone that shows tend to all do in later seasons. This one kind of worked out but it probably would've been better if they were all together, which I guess was why they lost. Did they talk at all about the part each group played? Did El tell Lucas she was with Max in her mind or she was the one that started her heart again (which I guess is a power upgrade). 

Overall I enjoyed this is probably as much as season 1. I was at the edge of my seat watching this and it felt like a movie. 

[Cattoy]

Wow. That was ... something. I think I might need to rewatch this season to get a good feel for it since I started zoning out whenever the Russian crap started. That added absolutely nothing to the plot and it dragged the whole thing down. The overlong episodes that needed serious editing didn't help.

Of course, we now know the point of the dumb jocks subplot - so they could kill a couple of characters without actually killing off a regular character. Eddie was growing on me by the end of the show, but I don't particularly care that he died. That's probably my biggest gripe about this season - the new characters. The cast is already too big, and they have to split them up across the continent and into another country just to fit them all in. Even then, most of them did nothing. Adding a slew of new characters didn't help. Will is never going to get a decent story line, poor kid.

Just some random thoughts - Remember talking about hypothermia when swimming in Hawkins in the spring? What about Hopper touching bare metal in snow in Siberia after spending months in a gulag? No, just no.

I remember the 80s well, but I don't recall everything being free. Where in the world did a group of kids get the money to drive a gas-guzzling van across country? Gas, tolls, food, lodging - it all adds up. I suppose Mike took some money on his trip, but enough for everything?

Where did another group of kids get the money to drive a gas-guzzling RV to a remote store to buy their supplies? Yeah, both the Wheelers and Steve come from well-off families, but that doesn't mean they carry around large amounts of cash all the time. Credit cards were still hard to get at this point. More importantly, why don't they already have this stuff? They know they live on a gateway to a hell dimension. One that has opened multiple times already! They know the USD creatures can't tolerate fire. Kids with bows and arrows weren't a big deal in the 80s. They could easily have explained wanting that stuff after getting interested in archery from DD, school, whatever. Nancy and Steve were over 18 since she was able to buy a shotgun. Why didn't they both have at least one rifle or shotgun between them? (And $199 for a shotgun in the 80s was crazy expensive. I bought one cheaper than that 20 years later than this took place.)

And if Nancy doesn't have the strength to climb up the sheet, she sure as hell can't handle a shotgun. The kick would have knocked her off her feet, even before she made it into a friendly-fire-waiting-to-happen by sawing it off. At least they avoided the nonsense that they could have bought the grenade. Is it legal? Yes, after you apply for all kinds of permits, pass multiple law enforcement checks, and have the small fortune necessary. Still not sure why they went out of town to get what they did. Any Kmart, Walmart, hardware store in town would have had everything they bought. Well, maybe not the beret, but it didn't add much to the effectiveness.

Sadie Sink is fantastic. She carried some intense scenes this season. Honestly, I agree with some others that it would have been better if she had died. El can bring back people from the dead? How? It's kinda a big deal to hand wave and basically do off camera. Brenner had better stay dead. This is no logical reason for him to survive having his head bit off by a demogorgon in the first season. This cheating death thing is not clever.

When Jason was attacking Lucas in the attic, I was wondering if they were going to use that to say he attacked Max and the others and tried to blame Eddie. His only alibi for the first murder was his pals on the team, and at least one of them joined in the attack by going after Erica. Oh, and that scene was worse than about thing else this show has done.

As soon as the gates started joining, I thought it was good they looked like earthquake cracks, so they'd have a way to explain that away! Seriously, I have no idea what they're going to do with that ending and do a time jump.

There were a lot of good things this season, but I feel like the bad parts weighed it down. Now just to make myself watch it again.

[Taryn74]

Okay, using the deep freezer as a sensory deprivation tank. I have questions.

I didn't see them doing anything to heat the water at all. Poor El would have frozen to death. (This would have been a nice time to show her using telekinesis as an electrical current, btw, to heat the water and set things up for restarting Max's heart later.)

Did they just leave the freezer sitting there full of water for the morning crew to find the next day? Did they just waste all that food? Argyle 2.0 probably lost his job over that. Way to go, guys.

I'm willing to handwave away supernatural stuff in a sci-fi show, not so much the everyday things. LOL

[memememe76]

I don’t need main characters to die for the sake of upping the stakes so I am okay with Max not being truly dead. There is a good chance that Max’s near death experience will have repercussions, unlike Hopper’s. 
 

It is annoying how quickly the characters separated AGAIN after reuniting for a few minutes. I can buy Steve and Robin going to the school to deliver donations, but Dustin would not be with Mike, Will and Eleven to see Max and Lucas? 
 

Interesting how literally just a few seconds of screen time had the “Do you want a tax receipt” girl on me. I would prefer her as Robin’s love interest over the bandmate. 

[Redrum]

1 minute ago, memememe76 said:

I don’t need main characters to die for the sake of upping the stakes so I am okay with Max not being truly dead. There is a good chance that Max’s near death experience will have repercussions, unlike Hopper’s. 

I don't need anyone to die and I figure Max is not likely to die simply because she's now the person Eleven has to save but I definitely think the final episode of this season would have had more impact with Max dying. 

24 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Did they just leave the freezer sitting there full of water for the morning crew to find the next day?

Doesn't everyone leave shit for the morning crew to deal with? 

25 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Did they just waste all that food? Argyle 2.0 probably lost his job over that. Way to go, guys.

Yup, yup, and honestly any idiot who hands over control of the store to some rando they've never met kinda wasn't winning employee of the year anyway. :)

[Enigma X]

7 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

I don’t need main characters to die for the sake of upping the stakes so I am okay with Max not being truly dead. There is a good chance that Max’s near death experience will have repercussions, unlike Hopper’s. 

Same. 

[Sakura12]

27 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Okay, using the deep freezer as a sensory deprivation tank. I have questions.

I didn't see them doing anything to heat the water at all. Poor El would have frozen to death. (This would have been a nice time to show her using telekinesis as an electrical current, btw, to heat the water and set things up for restarting Max's heart later.)

They unplugged the freezer to move it, so I'm assuming they used warm water to fill it. 

[DearEvette]

12 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

Interesting how literally just a few seconds of screen time had the “Do you want a tax receipt” girl on me. I would prefer her as Robin’s love interest over the bandmate. 

So funny.  I had the same notion.

31 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Did they just leave the freezer sitting there full of water for the morning crew to find the next day? Did they just waste all that food? Argyle 2.0 probably lost his job over that. Way to go, guys.

I headwank that Argyle is a dedicated pizza dude and would never leave the place in disarray.

[nomodrama]

Not perfect but still so great in my opinion. 

So glad the Joyce and Hopper kiss finally happened! 

The worst part about Eddie dying is that he's being held responsible for the murders without any evidence other than the fact that he was in the vicinity when it happened. It's unfair that is how he will be remembered forever in spite of being innocent. I wish that there had at least been some way to clear his name before he died. Plus he didn't get to graduate....sob!

The jocks were the absolute worst. I am sure if they had gotten their hands on Eddie they would have enacted their own form of justice on him. I know Jason died for sure, but did the other jock survive? 

It's too bad Mike didn't deliver his speech about 5 mins earlier, then El could have saved Max before she had her bones broken by Vecna/Henry/One. I agree that Sadie Sink did a really amazing job this season. She was not my favorite coming into this and I wouldn't have been bothered had she actually died for real but she did such a great job, I hope she will have enough to do in Season 5 and look forward to seeing her in other projects in the future. I guess Max died just long enough for Vecna's curse to be fulfilled. 

Since the sword of Gryffindor pretty much appeared itself to Hopper, we now know what house he is in (not surprising). 

Murray is an absolute treasure. 

Robin is cute but can be really grating at time, I'm not sure this show needs two of her. So weird that they decided to make Vickie exactly like her. 

"My women make noise when I please them" had me dying....though I wish they had tossed Yuri out the helicopter before they took off. 

Why wouldn't the entire town be evacuated immediately. People are just going to keep living there like nothing is happening?!

The Hopper/El reunion made any issues with the season completely worth it. 

Running Up That Hill will now be stuck in my head for the next couple of weeks.....thanks Stranger Things!

[Hotel Snarker]

Was really hoping Jason would get Vecnaed, or at least kicked in the ass by Lucas. I was surprised that he died in the earthquake though.

Like everyone else, I was so heartbroken for Max and devastated when Eddie died. Eddie, we will remember you forever. You will not be forgotten. Your Master of Puppets solo will never be forgotten. 

I really hope Max lives to Season 5. If she dies I will be devastated. I agree with everyone upthread that Sadie Sink is wonderful. We don’t want to lose her.

I have to admit the reunion with Hopper, Joyce, and El was so sweet it made me shed a few tears.

Caleb McLaughlin is a FANTASTIC actor. Man, he really killed it this episode with his parts.

Overall, I was expecting it to be much worse but was pleasantly surprised at what we actually got. All of my favorite characters are still alive (except for Max, we don’t know about her yet until Season 5)…

[eleanorofaquitaine]

One thing I want to give the show and the Duffer Brothers credit for is really showing the power of female friendship and just generally putting the women and girls front and center in the action. It was so refreshing and unusual to see two teenage girls - Max and El - take on the Big Bad and it didn't feel patronizing. Plus in both Dear Billy and The Piggyback, we got to see how much El and Max's friendship mattered to them and was a strength they could draw on.

And then in the scene in the attic, while Steve throws the first molotov cocktail, we see Robin throw the next one and of course, Nancy takes on the responsibility of shooting him. I appreciate the fact that the show has made room for the girls and women in the cast (even while recognizing that the show isn't perfect).

[mmecorday]

An uneven season finale for an uneven season. This episode was way too long. I feel like some of the moments in the high school/disaster shelter at the end would have worked better in a montage.

Max's death scene reminded me so much of a scene from a rather famous episode of "M*A*S*H" in which a soldier is dying and he can't see or feel anything. In his final moments he says, "I smell bread." Sadie Sink FTW again. I didn't like Max at first, but I feel very protective of her character now.

Oh, Steve. Please don't ever leave us. Oh, Eddie. I'm sorry you had to go. Keep on rockin' in the great beyond.

[Kel Varnsen]

There was some good stuff in this episode. The first half had me on the edge of my seat. Then I had to put my kids to bed so it calmed me down a bit. 

The whole scene at the pizza place getting set up was really good. I liked how it was all serious and then Agyle whipped up a pizza. Plus I am amazed that they managed to make him not annoying. 

I also liked how Will still has his connection to the upside down. Especially since I just finished season 1 with my daughter this afternoon.

There were some confusing things though. Like what happened to the army guy who raided the underground base and had his people kill Brenner. He thought that El was a huge threat before she took down a helicopter. And then she did and now Hawkins is destroyed. How is there not a nation wide hunt for her, especially since they know exactly what car she escaped in. 

1 hour ago, nomodrama said:

Why wouldn't the entire town be evacuated immediately. People are just going to keep living there like nothing is happening?!

That was weird. When the California crew got to Hawkins people were leaving like it was some organized mass evacuation. But the Wheelers and apparently a bunch of other people are just going to ride out the disaster.

Also how nice of 001 when he created mirror Hawkins within the Upsidedown that he made sure that the power would still work. Because while Eddie's most metal guitar solo looked cool, I really didn't know how they were powering the amp.

[DearEvette]

My two big questions...now that I think on it...

El is still wearing that flower thermal top and white jeans when she reunites with Hopper.  They look pristine.  But she had been immersed in salty water.  They should have been a bit crusty and stiff looking, LOL.  And frankly uncomfortable riding in sopping wet clothes across the country.

All that time in that last episode and we didn't get a glimpse of Erica & Lucas' parents or Dustin's mom to see if they were ok.   I assume they are because they'd be more devastated by that than hanging out in Max's hospital room or talking to Eddie's uncle.  But the show could have thrown us a bone.

[Spartan Girl]

Damn this show! I should’ve learned my lesson with Bob and Alexei, I had to get all attached to Eddit anyway! 😭😭😭😭😭😭 Hawkins did not deserve him.

And now Max is lost/brain dead?!? Death would have been kinder.

No pity for Jason. 

But FANTASTIC use of Kate Bush for that climax! And Murray with the flamethrower was awesome.

The Jopper makeout was long overdue!!!! And him so happy El and Hopper reunited at least.

This was worth waiting for. The final season better stick the landing.

[AmigaJoe]

I didn't read every post, but I did do a search before posting and didn't see the magic words. I just have to ask, did they really never explain how the Soviet helicopter got the rotors attached? That would have been a huge job, and taking some real expertise. When they showed it in the hangar, they were clearly missing...

[MamaGee]

When Robin and Steve were flinging molotov cocktails at Vecna and Nancy was shooting with her sawed off shotgun, my family and I were screaming "Go for the head!" A la The Avengers vs. Thanos. They didn't and he's still alive. 

I am not sure I can watch the show again if they keep that doofus Argyle around. He. Added. Nothing. Except stupidity. I didn't find him even mildly entertaining. 

As everyone else has said, the actors who play Lucas and Max were the stars this season. 

[festivus]

Aww, Eddie. Just know that your metal concert in the Upside Down was the most 80s moment this show has ever had. 🤘

Loved the nod to The Talisman, my favorite Stephen King book. 

I also think Vecna took what was there and created the Mind Flayer. It's Vecna that wants the Upside Down to take over everything and he's the one they have to stop. I think it goes back to what it was with him gone. Nothing trying to break through.

[Anela]

Eddie. 😔😭😭

It took me longer to walk, as well.  Mum said I didn’t crawl, and she wouid crawl past me, trying to get me to move.  I just sat and giggled at her.  

that was a bit long. One too many epic scenes. I hope max recovers. I’m too tired to say more right now   

 

[methodwriter85]

4 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Interesting how literally just a few seconds of screen time had the “Do you want a tax receipt” girl on me. I would prefer her as Robin’s love interest over the bandmate. 

I liked her, too. I hope we see her in more things- she had a few seconds of screen time but something about her just leapt off the screen.

I'm generally just not a fan of same-sex couples who look and act exactly life. It creeps me out.

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That was weird. When the California crew got to Hawkins people were leaving like it was some organized mass evacuation. But the Wheelers and apparently a bunch of other people are just going to ride out the disaster.

I didn't get it, either. I couldn't believe the Wheelers weren't packing their stuff and getting the hell out of there.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/1/2022 at 12:40 PM, Harvey said:

Question: now that a super huge gate is open into our world, why aren't Demogorgons / demobats / demodogs crossing over into our world and wreaking havoc? Why did the mind flayer wait 2 whole days after the gates were open when it started to do anything? And even then it was just that ashy air thing.

It's also pretty interesting that we now know that the demogorgons are a species native to the upside down. Our heroes spent a lot of time in there at this point, yet they never ran into one. Why is that? I guess they only appear when the plot needs them to. And also, when Nancy Robin and Steve were in the upside down and hurting Vecna, why didn't the mind flayer show up to help him out? It's been suggested that they became allies so it would not be unreasonable.

We don't know the full nature of the gate that opened up. The implication we were given was that Vecna needed to kill/absorb four victims in order to do the next steps in his plan. He only "killed" Max, but didn't absorb her like he did the other victims. So the result may have been a less functional gate than he had planned.

All the Demo- creatures are extensions of Vecna. The Mind Flayer, as well, seems to be an extension of Vecna (or vice versa). Vecna is wounded, and may be unable/unwilling to send demo creatures or to do more than start to convert the Rightside-Up into an Upside-Down -like atmosphere, or the conversion of Hawkins may be a necessary step for whatever the next phase of their plan..

It may also be that Vecna is not above a slow roll. There are lots of things he could have done to execute his plan more quickly -- after all, killing three unsuspecting teens isn't the hardest lift. And he could easily told El whatever he wanted to tell her in a half-dozen ways that would be smarter/better than showing Nancy flashes of what he was planning, and then I guess hoping Nancy figures out where the heck El is and how to convey the message to her. But the point remains; why hip El to his plans anyways, other than for the mwa-ha-ha-edness of it?

It also may come down to what the purpose is behind sending the demos out. If it's to help create gates, well, mission accomplished. 

It may be that the bad guys uses different forms of creatures for different purposes. The Demodogs/gorgons might be better to have in the Rightside-Up because they are tougher to killl than the others. The Demobats and sentient vines might be better to have in the Upside-Down because they can be ubiquitous.

For all intents and purposes, Vecna and the Mind Flayer are the same entity. Will confirms this when he talks about how he can sense Vecna just like he could sense the MF.

On 7/1/2022 at 5:02 PM, peachmangosteen said:

I don't understand how there can be a time jump at all with that ending. 

From a practical/real world perspective, I think a time jump is likely because it will take some time to write and film the final season, and it will be better served by having the finale take place, say, in 1989 rather than five hours later in 1986.

From an in-story perspective, again, Vecna was wounded and so despite the ominous sign of Upside-Down ash falling, he might not be able to do much more for a while. Or Our Heroes could manage to keep him in check somehow.

On 7/1/2022 at 8:38 PM, MissL said:

I don’t understand Eddie’s death on several levels. Why did he lead them away from the trailer? Did he realize they maybe would follow him through the rip and get Dustin and be loose on the world?  Why did he make a stand in the middle of an open area instead of trying to get some cover?  In the end didn’t he mostly get the same injuries as Steve? I mean Steve seems to be totally fine…thank god.

Eddie said he wanted to buy Team Steve/Nancy/Robin more time. If both he and Dustin had disappeared back into the Rightside-Up, the swarm of demobats would be free to come after Steve/Nancy/Robin. As he said, he was tired of running. There was no way one person was going to fight off all those demobats and survive. I am pretty sure that there were many more demobats attacking Eddie than attacked Steve..

On 7/1/2022 at 9:55 PM, Taryn74 said:

We saw Child!Henry drawing a picture of the Mind Flayer, so I think we were supposed to assume from that he created it.

It wasn't quite clear to me previously if the Mind Flayer was something that existed before Henry went to the UpsideDown and somehow made contact with Henry and inspired him to make these drawings, or if Henry super-imposed his childhood concept of a beautiful life form on what he happened to run into when in the Upside Down.

But this episode seems to make it seem the latter. 

16 hours ago, Jack Sampson said:

In early interviews, the Duffers said we'd learn more about what the Upside Down is and how it works, but we didn't.  How are there buildings and objects moving around the UD?  What does it look like when a house is being built?  Does it just appear?  Copies of cars and bikes exist there and are where they are placed in the real world, why don't we see them moving around in the UD?  Wasn't the air horribly toxic in the UD in season 1?  I remember people needing hazmat suits.

We did learn more about the Upside Down and how it works but just not the answers to the questions you posed, or even the answers to why things apparently work the way that they do.

Among the things that we learned this season (and I apologize in advance if I'm misremembering things, if this merely builds on things that had been previously touched on or if I'm describing them incorrectly):

1. The whole of the Upside Down is a hive mind that is being run by Henry/One/Vecna

2. The ways to use electricity to send messages from the UD to the RU are not limited to the sort of set up that Joyce created but can also include light-brites and lanterns

3. The UD is not a perfect duplicate of the RU, but appears (at least in part) to be frozen in time, and time passes at a different rate there

4. There are Demobats in the UD.

5. Vecna needs to ritualistically kill four people in order to make the UD bleed more into the RU.

The government people wore hazmat suits as a precaution. But so far, none of the main characters seem to have developed any problems healthwise after prolonged exposure to breathing the UD's air. So it may be that the UD air is in fact not toxic, or it could be that it's toxic and Will, Hop and everyone else who has been exposed to UD air have not yet manifested symptoms but still will.

15 hours ago, Redrum said:

Yes I get that but how did One/Henry/Vecna create a huge gate into the world when he was clearly set on fire and also driven away from killing Eleven? Thats the ???? part of the equation. He was set on fire, he was forced to release all of his captives and seemed to disintegrate but apparently always had the power to open a portal to our world so.... why didn't he just do that without facing down Eleven and being set on fire like Freddie Kruger vs parental vigilantes?

It seems that the trigger to creating the huge gate was killing Max as Victim No. 4. But he didn't finish the job of killing Max properly, so that may have messed up how the gate was created/functioned.

He had the power to open up tiny portals to the RU. He apparently didn't have the ability to create something the size of the attempted gate across a good portion of the town until he attempted this ritual.

The usual combo platter of villain arrogance/because the story wouldn't work. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

30 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

I liked her, too. I hope we see her in more things- she had a few seconds of screen time but something about her just leapt off the screen.

I'm generally just not a fan of same-sex couples who look and act exactly life. It creeps me out.

Why the qualifier of "same-sex"? There are heterosexual couples who look way more alike than Robin and her love interest IMO.

[methodwriter85]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Why the qualifier of "same-sex"? There are heterosexual couples who look way more alike than Robin and her love interest IMO.

I'm gay, so I tend to pay way more attention to gay couples on social media than I would for straight couples. I'm sure the same holds true as well.

[HelloooKitty]

Ok, but did the forrest eat Argyle?

Bc one minute he’s traipsing around picking mushrooms and then the “snow” starts and everyone goes to the hill top to look down at Hawkins and there’s no Argyle. He just disappeared. 

[Nashville]

Before we go any further, let us take a moment to acknowledge Eddie - both in terms of his sacrifice, and in the best use of Metallica as a diversionary agent in the history of cinema.

On 7/1/2022 at 9:08 PM, krankydoodle said:

I thought it might be an existing creature that he had taken control of or something.

If I’m not mistaken, that’s exactly what One said:

“I became an explorer - an explorer of a realm unspoiled by mankind. I saw so many things, and one day I found the most extraordinary thing of all - something that would change EVERYTHING. I saw a means to realize my potential - to transcend my human form - to become the predator I was always born to be.”

[Nashville]

A couple of other notes:

1. So Max was clinically dead for about a minute, thereby qualifying her as the “4th sacrifice” - but I wonder: when El brought Max back, did doing so short-circuit part of H/O/V’s grand master plan?  That might explain why Hawkins now looks like a giant set of interdimensional tectonic crosshair sights, but we don’t have demogorgons crawling all over the landscape and chewing on the scenery.
2. Hopefully following the last conversation between El and One, we never have to hear the word “Papa” ever again.  I had gotten to where every time El spoke to Brenner, I was getting major “Yentl” flashbacks (#papacanyouhearme) .

Edited July 3, 2022 by Nashville
Punctuation

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

became an explorer - an explorer of a realm unspoiled by mankind. I saw so many things, and one day I found the most extraordinary thing of all - something that would change EVERYTHING. I saw a means to realize my potential - to transcend my human form - to become the predator I was always born to be.”

It seems that Vecna discovered the angry cloud that he formed into a giant spider. It just wasn't clear to me at least if the cloud was something that was already alive or if it was just a cloud.

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

All the Demo- creatures are extensions of Vecna. The Mind Flayer, as well, seems to be an extension of Vecna (or vice versa). 

The Gorgons at least existed in the upside down before 001 showed up. It seems that he was able to use his powers to create the hive mind though.

[krankydoodle]

Maybe they're keeping it vague because in the vein of The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes the spinoff will be a prequel series following Henry/Vecna's early adventures in the Upside Down. Kidding, but after finishing this season I still have no idea what the spinoff could be about.