S04.E09: Chapter Nine: The Piggyback

[Athena]

Season finale.

Quote

With selfless hearts and a clash of metal, heroes fight from every corner of the battlefield to save Hawkins — and the world itself.

[steelyis]

The kids in this show! Wow! Their performances in the finale reminded me why Stranger Things got to be so big. So much talent! They all brought it, full stop. There were no brakes! But Caleb, Sadie, and Gaten were especially phenomenal! I was in tears!

[Harvey]

While this was very exciting and action packed, the scene where Jonathan told Will that he is there for him no matter what was my favorite. It was so touching and very well-done.

[Lady Calypso]

I have a lot of thoughts about this finale but first off, I have to say that the main kids (particularly Sadie, Gaten and Caleb) absolutely crushed it this season. They really delivered on what they were given. 

There is so much to unpack (especially for a 2 and a half hour finale) but I guess I'll focus on the major moments.

I will say, I'm a bit disappointed that all the hype we got about death and Eddie was the only major death. Max's almost death was heartbreaking, and we don't know what state she's in (since El couldn't find her in the hospital scene) but it really felt like there'd be more certain death. Or maybe more injuries in general. Yes, I was expecting Steve do die, glad he didn't, but it did feel anticlimatic, in a way. 

Plus, I didn't like how everyone was split up all season besides the last 20 minutes or so. Usually, the group manages to get back together for the finale, but everyone got together after the climax, so that was weird. It left characters like Jonathan and Will to basically sit around and prop others up, and left the Russian group to be totally sidelined and not do much to help. I mean, for all that Hopper and Joyce were hoping to do, to buy the kids time with Vecna, I don't think they actually did anything of use. I don't think them defeating the Demodogs stalled Vecna at all. It didn't seem like it did, anyway.

So with the Russia story, since we now know it was 100% a side mission that contributed almost nothing to the plot (besides Joyce/Hopper getting together and gaining a couple new allies), its screentime took away from stuff that could have been given to the California adventure, which was sorely underused. I expected the Russian experiments on the Upside Down to at least reveal something useful for the Hawkins stuff but it didn't even do that. 

Jason was such a tragic antagonist. Yes, he really ruined things for the gang that indirectly led to Max dying, but from his POV, he didn't have all the information and was basically being told to stop believing with what he was seeing and what was known at the time, and to listen to people who he didn't know well. He lost Chrissy, so it's understandable why he reacted like he did. And it got him killed, rather brutally, for no good reason. I didn't like Jason and knew he'd muck things up, but he didn't deserve his death.

Neither did Eddie, who I WAS hoping would survive. He fit in with the group so well and it's not like I wanted to trade one mentor for another for Dustin, but I expected Eddie to fulfil that role if Steve perished. And I LOVED Eddie, I really hoped they wouldn't pull a Bob.

I wonder where Max is. My current theory is that she's lost with Vecna. We know from Brenner that Vecna takes his victims' memories, thoughts, and essentially their souls (which is what I assume his dead victims tied up outside his home were, actually Chrissy/Fred/Patrick). Which leads me to believe that part of the final season will be saving Max's soul/bringing it back to her body.

Now, the finale WAS great; it had a lot of tense moments, a lot of amazing musical moments, and the CGI was fantastic. And the ending was solid. I just feel like they really could have made some changes and upped the stakes even further.

I'm sure I have more thoughts as I remember details later on.

[Fuzzy Logic]

This finale makes me more hopeful that Steve might survive the whole series because it feels like the Duffer Brothers gave his intended death scene to Eddie.  Sacrificing himself for the group (specifically Dustin), even throwing in an 'I love you' moment.  Didn't feel entirely earned with Eddie, would've felt entirely earned with Steve.  But I am not complaining!!!!!  I am relieved.  I was expecting to see that very scene play out between Dustin and Steve in the last episode of the whole series, and am crossing my fingers it will now not come to pass.

[Harvey]

Question: now that a super huge gate is open into our world, why aren't Demogorgons / demobats / demodogs crossing over into our world and wreaking havoc? Why did the mind flayer wait 2 whole days after the gates were open when it started to do anything? And even then it was just that ashy air thing.

It's also pretty interesting that we now know that the demogorgons are a species native to the upside down. Our heroes spent a lot of time in there at this point, yet they never ran into one. Why is that? I guess they only appear when the plot needs them to. And also, when Nancy Robin and Steve were in the upside down and hurting Vecna, why didn't the mind flayer show up to help him out? It's been suggested that they became allies so it would not be unreasonable.

[thuganomics85]

Whew, that was a lot!

They definitely overhyped the big deaths for these last two episodes, since two of them were villains or shady characters (Brenner and Jason), one was only temporary (Max), and while I liked Eddie a lot and thought his death was sad, he was still relatively new, so it didn't have as much as an impact as it would had it been one of the OGs.  That said, I don't mind it, since I don't want to lose anyone yet (now, I suspect everyone will be fair game for the final season.)  Especially glad that all of the stuff with Steve last episode was a misdirect.  The world's best babysitter/mom is safe!

Still, I thought it was interesting that while the gang was able to temporarily save the day, the Vecna really did win on a lot of levels, and will continue to be a major problem going forward.  Especially since I do think Eleven will a bit thrown off because this is kind of the first time she wasn't able to miraculously fix everything.  The reveal that he was the only who created the Mind-Flayer was great too.  They really did a good job at establishing him as a threat and he is more than worthy as the (or one of) endgame baddie.

Certainly glad Max survived, but wow, I imagine this won't be easy for her.  Not only is she physically crippled (and possibly blind?), but she's in a coma and Eleven wasn't able to find her inside her mind.  Yeah, not sure what is going on there.

Surprised the whole Russia crew made it out.  I wonder what happened to Dmitri though.  I have to imagine he's a wanted man, but I remember him saying something about having a family, so he wouldn't just abandon them, right?  Hopefully we'll at least get a mention next season.

The Will/Jonathan scene was great.  Haven't gotten a lot of that lately, so I'm glad they're re-establishing that relationship again.

Looks like Robin might be able to pursue a relationship with Vicki after-all!  Steve looked so happy for her!

Dustin's scene with Mr. Munson was fantastic.  Gaten Matarazzo was amazing in that moment.

A little disappointed that the entire group didn't reunite until the very end, but they still got me with the Eleven/Hopper reunion.  Millie Bobby Brown and David Harbour have really nailed down their dynamic.

A few minor quibbles aside, I definitely think this is the best season since the first one (although I still enjoyed two and three quite a bit.)  The Vecna was one hell of a villain and while I was a little annoyed about the group splitting up, the stories and pairings were compelling enough (even the Russia stuff grew on me.)  The acting was also probably the strongest yet: really think some Emmy noms and possible wins should be on the table.  And perhaps most importantly, I think the set-up for the final season is really strong and I can't wait to see how it plays out (especially everyone is back in Hawkins and I don't see a reason for anyone to leave with what is in store.)  Hopefully the wait won't be as long as last time!  But great job by everyone involved.  Here's to hopefully sticking the landing! 

Edited July 1, 2022 by thuganomics85

[Harvey]

21 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I mean, for all that Hopper and Joyce were hoping to do, to buy the kids time with Vecna, I don't think they actually did anything of use. I don't think them defeating the Demodogs stalled Vecna at all. It didn't seem like it did, anyway.

They did help a lot: the flamethrower burning up the demodogs and 1 demogorgon caused the demobats to fall and the vines to let Robin/Steve/Nancy go. It also seemed to cause significant pain to Vecna but he was in the clutches of 11 at that point.

[bettername2come]

I’m going to say Eddie going fighting rather than running to draw the demobats away was not braver and probably just led to him dying more. But he had to die to keep him as the presumed suspect in the teen murders. I’m glad he didn’t die alone but it would’ve sucked if Dustin going back negated Eddie’s heroic sacrifice. 

Steve lived through saying he wanted 6 kids with Nancy! Woohoo!

With all the big horror this show throws at us, it still gets me with the real life scary situations like jock threatening to break an eleven-year-old girl’s arm or Jason aiming a gun at Lucas. But Sinclairs persevere! Caleb McLaughlin has really put in a great performance this season. I admit, I thought he would sing “Running Up That Hill” when the Walkman broke.

I’m glad Max lived after. My heart broke when she said she couldn’t see or feel anything. I think El not finding Max’s mind means she’s trapped with Vecna and next season will involve a journey to rescue her soul. And I appreciate the foreshadowing of Owens saying they could put El in a medically induced coma rather than kill her and it happens to Max instead. 5 bucks says early talks were Max just dies and someone talked the Duffer Brothers out of it.

The Hopper reunions were nice. I’m all for members of this cast hugging. But you know what I’d really like next season? Everyone working together the whole season and communicating! 

[SeanC]

A+ fashion choice from Robin with the combat beret.

I credit the writers, they momentarily made me think they might actually be killing Max. Pretty grisly injuries.

There was speculation about what sort of time jump there's be between seasons, but this ending really doesn't seem like it would be one where they'd just go back to the status quo for very long.

[steelyis]

25 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

5 bucks says early talks were Max just dies and someone talked the Duffer Brothers out of it.

I would have been furious if they had! Only reason I'm not now is because a coma means there's still hope.

[Rankles]

Amazing finale! Was seriously pissed about what happened to Max, hopefully things aren’t as bleak for her as they seem. Really thought Steve was going to die, pretty much all the way up to the credits! :)

Read an article where the actor who plays Eddie said he wouldn’t be happy if he wasn’t in S5, so I didn’t expect him to die. Shame, thought he was a great addition.

Mind’s still kind of blown (flayed?), so that’s all I’ve got right now…

[moonb]

Was Lucas reading "The Talisman" to Max in the hospital, where Jack Sawyer flips back and forth between the real world and the Territories? How appropriate.  

Loved the scene at the Wheelers where the pizza van shows up and everyone's reaction to seeing the California group. Also got pretty teary at Karen hugging Mike and telling him he was never leaving home again...and of course Hopper and El seeing each other again. And Mike and Hopper's "you've grown. You've shrunk."  Aw.

Max's scene with Lucas where she says she doesn't want to die - completely wrenching. Great job Sadie and Caleb.

[Cranberry]

I missed not having everyone come together in person for the big battle at the end, but I thought it was cool how everyone helped from their part of the world. I'm also glad El managed to bring Max back to life, but I'm still worried about Max not being able to see or feel anything before dying (and El not being able to find her in the darkness later). Seeing her arm and leg snap... eek.

I didn't expect Steve to die and I'm glad he didn't. I did expect Eddie to die and I'm sad he did. I was right with two thirds of my death predictions (Jason and Eddie), although Dmitri made it out unscathed.

I liked the bonding moment between Will and Jonathan. I hope Will's speech to Mike and Jonathan's reassurances that he'll love Will no matter what will kill the "Will's not gay, just immature" debate.

So nothing was resolved with Steve/Nancy/Jonathan, although it seems to me that neither couple is really well suited. Jonathan and Nancy don't have the same dreams for the future anymore, but neither do she and Steve -- he wants a bunch of kids and she doesn't. She seemed conflicted when Steve confessed that he always saw her in his future. Really not sure where they'll go with that.

Kind of annoyed that Robin's love interest is basically a clone of her, personality-wise, but glad Robin got to flirt a little, I guess?

Hopper and El's reunion made me tear up a little, not gonna lie.

Season five's gonna be big. I'm excited, but worried about some of these characters making it through.

[Aquarius97]

I don't know what to say. Just wow.

I really thought at one point, a lot of the gang was going to die, but at the end it kinda feels unsatisfying. Only Eddie dying, once again the secondary star character dying, why are we even surprised anymore, but i call bs in 11 sorta resurrecting Max. I think that should have been it, the "dying" scene was so intense.

Lucas and Max are 100x better than any other couple, it feels like the only one that isn't forced. I don't think Jason showing up changed anything with Max, but really glad that he basically got split up by the gate (that was super weird).

I wish we got to see more of how Russian could capture all the demo-stuff and even "the shadow", and wtf were they doing with them, like the one they had tied up with the chest opened. I highly doubt we'll get to see more of the Russian side in S5, so basically a wasted storyline only there so the guys stuck in the veins could escape.

Btw, i totally can't understand what happened when the demo-bats attacked Eddie. First they take him out of the bike, then it looks like they forget about him as Eddie is think about not running away this time, as they even looked to go away from the place (which really reminded me of S2 when Demodogs pass by Steve and Dustin in the tunnels without caring about them in their way to the gate), then next time we see them they are circling Eddie and start to attack him

[jqdeco]

Wow. I had to stop halfway through and wash dishes because that was so intense.   I needed something mundane to do for a few minutes.  I hope the Russian prison story wasn’t just to give the adults something to do and more is revealed next season.  I also want to see Will and his knowledge of Vecna used next season. 
Hated that they killed Eddie.  I really liked him but glad everyone made it out.  Sadie Sink was amazing.

[magdalene]

Well,  I am glad that all of you who were so convinced that Steve would die this season were wrong.  I love him and believe to this day that the way they subverted his character is one of the most awesome things this show has done. I would have not enjoyed the  coming final season had he been killed off now.

[tennisgurl]

I will have more to say later, but my first two thoughts as I catch my breath and take a walk?

1. I can totally see why the young cast of this show have exploded, they really are incredible, delivering knock out performances left and right. There were real tears. 

2. I am so fucking relieved that Steve is still alive. I am really sad about Eddie, the Duffers love of killing off lovable new characters is painful, but I am just so relieved that Steve ended this season still alive and looking forward to his six little Harringtons. That's all I needed. 

What a great season, their best since the first, I am so psyched for what comes next.

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

5 bucks says early talks were Max just dies and someone talked the Duffer Brothers out of it.

Totally lol. And I would like to personally thank whoever talked them out of it.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

There was speculation about what sort of time jump there's be between seasons, but this ending really doesn't seem like it would be one where they'd just go back to the status quo for very long.

I don't understand how there can be a time jump at all with that ending. 

1 hour ago, Cranberry said:

Kind of annoyed that Robin's love interest is basically a clone of her, personality-wise, but glad Robin got to flirt a little, I guess?

Yea, that was really odd and I hated it. 

Quote

Also give me Will Byers content where he is not playing couples therapist to Mike.  Seriously Noah Schnapp carried the plot of season 2 to be reduced to this?  

Thank you! Noah Schnapp is easily the the best actor of the young men imo and they pay him such dust. He makes the absolute most out the crumbs they give him though. His speech to Mike, the talk with Jonathan, and him talking about feeling Vecna again were among the best scenes this season.

[toodywoody]

This was a great set up for next season. Everyone is together and needs to be together in order to defeat One. 

Since we really didn't seen Brenner die, I'm expecting him to show up again. 

Now I'm afraid for Will since he seems to be tied to Vecna and what will that mean for Max if she wakes up?

[mledawn]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

A little disappointed that the entire group didn't reunite until the very end, but they still got me with the Eleven/Hopper reunion.  Millie Bobby Brown and David Harbour have really nailed down their dynamic.

I mean, this was why I watched. I love their relationship and the actors do so well with the material.

I was wondering how they’d add another season but I think they’ve set it up nicely. 

[secnarf]

5 hours ago, bettername2come said:

With all the big horror this show throws at us, it still gets me with the real life scary situations like jock threatening to break an eleven-year-old girl’s arm or Jason aiming a gun at Lucas. But Sinclairs persevere! Caleb McLaughlin has really put in a great performance this season. I admit, I thought he would sing “Running Up That Hill” when the Walkman broke.

That was my thought also - I was looking forward to hearing him sing it.

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

Well,  I am glad that all of you who were so convinced that Steve would die this season were wrong.  I love him and believe to this day that the way they subverted his character is one of the most awesome things this show has done. I would have not enjoyed the  coming final season had he been killed off now.

Speaking only for myself - I was (am) worried that they will kill off Steve, and not just in this season. I am super glad he survived the season, but I think he is really at risk next season. I suppose they all kind of are, with it being the last season.

Little things I loved: Robin putting her hand on Steve's back when Jonathan/Nancy had their reunion, Argyle looking for mushrooms, and "you shrunk".

I checked the time remaining on the episode and it was about 29 mins left (including credits) when they were reunited. I hope that they aren't split up so much next season, and that the Russia plot had some sort of meaning.

When the older teens came upon the "sleeping" Vecna, and pulled out a Molotov cocktail, I was like this is your grand plan?! Hope he burns to death? Why not behead the guy, or do something a little more permanent? I noticed them making them earlier, but I had thought they were a small part of the plan, not the crux of it.

I have been vocal about how I didn't feel much towards Eddie - and I wonder if that's because I subconsciously knew he would be the sacrificial lamb of the season - but of everyone, I was really glad none of the others (esp Steve and Max) were picked as the sacrifices and it was Eddie instead. Having said that, Dustin killed me in the scene with Eddie's uncle. When he held out the guitar pick necklace, it got awfully dusty over here.

I really also did think that Max was going to die - when she "died" in Lucas' arms, I almost texted my sister to warn her (without spoiling) and then thought the better of it, because it ain't over til it's over. Glad I was right about that, at least. It would be brutal to save her now, make season 5 about trying to save her soul, only to have them fail (or Max ultimately choose to die to save her friends).

This episode was far too long - I had to watch in three segments just because of life things coming up. I hope they re-think the format a bit for the final season.

[MissL]

I don’t understand Eddie’s death on several levels. Why did he lead them away from the trailer? Did he realize they maybe would follow him through the rip and get Dustin and be loose on the world?  Why did he make a stand in the middle of an open area instead of trying to get some cover?  In the end didn’t he mostly get the same injuries as Steve? I mean Steve seems to be totally fine…thank god.

I am sorry to see him die but am ok with it in the grand scheme of things if we get to keep most of our crew a bit longer, just feels a bit like a stupid death.

[Thalia]

I'm rewatching episode 9 right now, but I really want to forward to the end because I can't remember whether Argyle drove to Hawkins with the gang.   If Jonathan isn't going to go to college, maybe he, Argyle, and Joyce could open up an Indiana Surfer Boy Pizza franchise.   "Try before you deny!"  How great was the Vegas employee?  

Stepping away from the sadness for a minute (damn you, Eddie Munson, for making me care.  And while I'm at it, damn you too, Dustin Henderson, for that heartfelt speech to Uncle Munson), to go stand in the shallow end of the saline filled immersion tank.  Hubba Hubba, post-Russian prison diet Hopper.  I had been wondering if they'd acknowledge that he had to have lost weight and gain muscles from the diet and physical exertion.   Me, I'll stick with the occasional salad and trip to the gym. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Thalia

[krankydoodle]

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

A+ fashion choice from Robin with the combat beret.

It looked very Red Dawn.

11 hours ago, jqdeco said:

I also want to see Will and his knowledge of Vecna used next season. 

I was kind of annoyed that this didn't come up until late in the game. I know there was a lot going on, but the way his connection to the Mind Flayer/Vecna was only brought up again at the end felt kind of cheap.

15 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The reveal that he was the only who created the Mind-Flayer was great too.

Is that what happened? I thought it might be an existing creature that he had taken control of or something. I found that part a little unclear, but my attention was drifting a bit at that point.

I'm tempted to do a rewatch of the whole show after the reveals this season to see if anything contradicts what we've learned or if it puts some events in a different light.

After loving the rest of the season, I found this episode a bit underwhelming. The pacing felt off to me. It seemed strange how there were a few scenes that faded to black for a few seconds before resuming. I'm still excited for next season, but this didn't work as well for me as I had hoped.

Edited July 2, 2022 by krankydoodle

[Taryn74]

46 minutes ago, krankydoodle said:

Is that what happened? I thought it might be an existing creature that he had taken control of or something.

We saw Child!Henry drawing a picture of the Mind Flayer, so I think we were supposed to assume from that he created it.

[BlackberryJam]

I suspect this is going to be a wildly unpopular post.

Wow, that was…tedious. Everything took so long. I feel like the Duffers need to make friends with a brutal editor. It all reached a point for me where the narrative tension fell apart and I just got bored and wanted to fastforward to the end. I didn’t, but I did start playing online solitaire. I think I emotionally checked out during Vecna’s 2 hour boring speech of exposition and blame. 

I was so annoyed by the length of every scene. I honestly think it would have been better if I’d hit the 30 second advance button about 100 times, knocking an hour off the runtime.

So why do I even stick with it? I enjoy the overall story. I originally came to the show for Winona. I wanted a big come back for her. I stayed because it was fun. I like these plucky kids fighting evil while riding bicycles all over town. I still like it. I just want tighter episodes.

Things I especially liked in this finale:

Dressing up Dustin like an Ewok. That might be my favorite costuming ever.

Eddie’s bicycling like in ET.

Max’s willing sacrifice and Lucas going to the mat with Jason for her. Lucas holding her while she died.

Max’s speech about wanting Billy gone. SS killed it. I think soliloquies are tough in general, but they take a level of confidence and maturity I don’t often see in young actors. Between that and her speech in Dear Billy, she’s sold me on her talent.  

Best scary/disturbing moment, the snapping of Max’s limbs. I felt that in a way I didn’t feel anyone else being hurt. 

Argyle knowing that you can find 600lbs of salt at a pizza place.

Dmitri/Enzo/Antonov/Jaqen H’gar calling Yuri on his bullshit.

Finally a callback to Will knowing the most about the Upside Down.

The exploding blood balloons like in King’s It.

A Billy cameo, and considering how much I hated him before, I was surprised at how effective I found him. 

The Byers brothers being brothers. So nice to remember that relationship exists.

Nancy giving me Red Dawn vibes with the gun.

Things I really didn’t like:

That jock chasing down Erica, landing on her and pinning her down in the grass. That felt horrible on a whole different level.

Eddie’s guitar solo. I don’t like guitar solos and it went on forever.

Yuri seeing the demigorgon and all of that horrific stuff in the prison and still pulling his sneaky bullshit.

Steve, Robin and Nancy being sidelined for so long while the rest of the action went on. 

The decision to go back to the prison. 

Mike’s love speech to El. I didn’t buy it. He might be the weakest of the child actors, although MBB struggles when it’s anything other than “reach out a hand while concentrating.” Modine and Hopper really lift her up. 

That the gang was not all together when it started snowing. 

That it took Joyce two days to even call her kids. 

I’ll watch the final season because I enjoy the story, but holy heart attacks, just because they have a budget for 9 two hour episodes or whatever doesn’t mean the story is worth that much time.

Edited July 2, 2022 by BlackberryJam

[memememe76]

The actor who plays Lucas was excellent. I got quite emotional, even though I felt some plots and characters useless. Mike, Will and Jonathan did virtually nothing this episode.

Mike hating pineapple on pizza is one of the few times I liked him.

Erica getting tackled by a white high school Senior was the most triggering. They spent way too much team on them. 

With next season being the last, I hope the cast stays together through the entire season. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by memememe76

[Fool to cry]

The one time the different groups of characters didn't come together to compare notes and come up with a plan is naturally when they lose!  The Hawkins gang tried their best but without El's powers or Hopper's practicality they were doomed.

RIP Eddie. When he was dying I was tearing up but Max was dying I was pissed! "Are you kidding me Duffer Bros? You're going to do this after what we went through Episode 4?! Happy El brought her back

Sadie, Caleb, Millie, Gaten and Noah were just phenomenal.

[bunnyblue]

The sequence where Eddie died in Dustin's arms and then Max died in Lucas' arms was one of the most gut-wrenching moments in the show's history for me. As Max lay dying and said she couldn't see and couldn't feel anything, I actually said to myself "wow, they're really gonna kill her". Her death felt like a natural progression to her storyline this season and while it would have hurt to lose her (Sadie is a really good actress), I feel like having her die going into the final season would have added some emotional weight to Lucas, Dustin, and El as they battle Vecna. But then the show had to ruin things by having El restart Max's heart. If the Duffer brothers were too afraid to have Max's death stick then they shouldn't have let it get as far as it did. The gang could have stopped Vecna before he started breaking her limbs and making her eyes bleed. For all the death the Duffer brothers promise they are incredibly averse at killing any of the main characters; this is the 4th cop out they've pulled (El, Will, Hopper, and Max).

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I suspect this is going to be a wildly unpopular post.

Not unpopular with me. I agree with about 99% of what you wrote, except with disliking Eddie's guitar solo. I loved the choice of song and that Eddie got to show off.

[Redrum]

2 hours ago, krankydoodle said:

It looked very Red Dawn.

I thought there was a smidge of a shout out there, yes. 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I suspect this is going to be a wildly unpopular post.

Wow, that was…tedious. Everything took so long.

I was afraid I would be the first to say it. 

Honestly there was a LOT of well.... drag points here. The Russian plot in particular seemed completely unnecessary - couldn't they have just flown to Alaska without a lengthy break back in and kill stuff to maybe distract the things from whatever the kids were doing? How did they even know the kids were doing anything?

Now I loved the actress playing Max. She was phenomenal. 

I think I am just unclear as to how this ended up a loss for Eleven? Don't get me wrong, I understand how One opened a gate to this world and is now polluting Hawkins but.... why did he win? He was set on fire and his adversary Eleven got away and steal underpants..... ????.... profit and world domination?

Glad Steve lived but was really struck by how Robin and Nancy and Jonathan all looked thiryish in the final scenes. 

No one is the slightest bit curious how Hopper ended up in Russia?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

8 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I liked the bonding moment between Will and Jonathan. I hope Will's speech to Mike and Jonathan's reassurances that he'll love Will no matter what will kill the "Will's not gay, just immature" debate.

I won't hijack the thread by trying to debate, but it doesn't kill the debate for me - at least, not completely.

I mean, sure, the hints have been very 'on the nose' and likely are what they look like, but after 2.5 to 3 seasons of these hints now, why won't they just make it official already - even if basically to just those of us in the audience.  Johnathon could have told Will that he knows how Will really feels about Mike, instead we are left with the always ambiguous "You can can talk with/to me, about anything".

Edited July 2, 2022 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[QuantumMechanic]

So what were Vecna’s exact words about encountering the Mindflayer as he was exploring the UD? I’m still trying to figure out if he created it or bonded with it.

Because he was just a normal (but burned) person then. Didn’t have the tentacles/vines integrated into him at that point.

I agree with the people saying that one chunk of next season will certainly be trying to get Max’s soul back. I hope that happens early so the whole gang can be together for most of the season. It would be a crime to have Max sidelined for a big chunk of the season.

And please please don’t be splitting people up for the final season!

[peridot]

I can't tell if the show is trying to show Mike's obsession with El is a good thing.  "He doesn't know what he'd do if she wasn't in his life"?

After Eddie cut the sheet to real-Hawkins, I wondered how everyone was going to get out of the Upside Down.

After Vecna blew out the window, I honestly thought that Max would end up paralyzed and blinded.  That would have been a horrible consequence of Vecna's schemes.  When she died, I was crying like crazy!  Since when can El bring someone back to life?

There were quite a few moments where I teared up.  That ending was amazing, I can't wait to see what's next.

[CUfan]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I suspect this is going to be a wildly unpopular post.

I think they made a mistake splitting the season because people's speculations were far better than what we actually got so I was also disappointed. It was unnecessary long and honestly, none of the scenes were as emotional as episodes 4 ending (IMO the best episode of the season).

I don't care about Will and his feelings and Noah is the worst actor of the bunch, I really was hoping he'd die but no such luck. Don't care about El and her one reaction and hand motion. We didn't have enough Eddie for me to care about his death (Dustin's speech at the end was very moving). 5 hours and yet not enough airtime for Steve and with them knowing that he is everyone's favorite, his death wasn't even on the radar. All this build up with him and Nancy led to her going back to Jonathan while we see a "blink and you miss" sad look from Steve? Max's scenes continued  to be the most powerful ones and Sadie was the MVP of this episode AND this season.   

[Harvey]

59 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I think I am just unclear as to how this ended up a loss for Eleven? Don't get me wrong, I understand how One opened a gate to this world and is now polluting Hawkins but.... why did he win? He was set on fire and his adversary Eleven got away and steal underpants..... ????.... profit and world domination?

11's goal was to save Max. Max momentarily died and now she is in a vegetative state. Vecna also managed to create a huge gate into the world. How is it not a loss?

[OutOfTheQuestion]

The episode was both too long and too short, since there was so stunningly little of the entire group together at the end.  I really could've used another 10 minutes of confab between all three groups, as least for more of a "holy shit" reaction from the other two groups about the third was doing, for instance.  Like, everyone was very "oh, Hopper's still alive, that's cool!" like he'd just been out for groceries for a day.

[bunnyblue]

38 minutes ago, Redrum said:

The Russian plot in particular seemed completely unnecessary - couldn't they have just flown to Alaska without a lengthy break back in and kill stuff to maybe distract the things from whatever the kids were doing? How did they even know the kids were doing anything?

I love Hopper & Joyce and find Murray useful and amusing, but I hard agree that most of the Russia plot was unnecessary. The rescue took too long, and then they break back into prison?! I'm still not even clear as to how hurting/killing the creatures in Russia affected Vecna in Hawkins. The Duffers made it all too convoluted; after Hopper was rescued (say in episode 4 or 5), he & Joyce could've learned what was happening with their kids and gone off in search of them as they all made their way back to Hawkins for the final battle. As to how Hop & Joyce knew what the kids were up to and how to help them, Ellen the FBI Agent who was working with Owens filled them in during their offscreen phone conversation.

28 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I’m still trying to figure out if he created it or bonded with it.

I think the Mind Flayer and the Demogorgons already existed in the UD when Henry was thrown in there. But maybe he learned to control them and now they all do his bidding? I also think the MF was more of a smoky blob until Henry gave it's tentacle shape we're used to seeing. 

30 minutes ago, peridot said:

I honestly thought that Max would end up paralyzed and blinded.

I think she was paralyzed and blind because she told Lucas she couldn't see or feel anything. Which brings me to another point: El only restarted Max's heart, clearly she didn't heal her since she's in a coma, so if Max wakes up next season, shouldn't she remain paralyzed & blind? I mean, the damage is already done to her body. Her bones may heal and she may regain feeling and use of her limbs, but how can she regain her eyesight? Max has been put through the ringer and I don't see how she can recover from this.

[Dev F]

59 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I won't hijack the thread by trying to debate, but it doesn't kill the debate for me - at least, not completely.

I mean, sure, the hints have been very 'on the nose' and likely are what they look like, but after 2.5 to 3 seasons of these hints now, why won't they just make it official already - even if basically to just those of us in the audience.

On the one hand, I'd love for them to give official confirmation just to put to rest the arguments along the lines of "I don't know why we should assume that all the hints that Will is gay mean that he's gay when they could just as soon mean nothing!" On the other hand, I don't love the idea that a character point can't be considered confirmed until the writers convert the subtext into text. Like, Mad Men never had someone stand around with a sign announcing, "This season Don Draper will be dealing with denial!" or whatever. They just showed him doing it and trusted the viewer to parse the text intelligently.

It's a catch-22, really: I want them to spell out the fact that Will is gay to confirm that the subtext fucking means something—but the very act of spelling it out implies that subtext alone doesn't mean enough.

On the same subject, I think it's interesting that the producers recently departed from their "It's open to interpretation!" deflections and started giving assurances that the last couple episodes would finally address Will's sexuality, but in fact S4vol2 treated the subject pretty much exactly as obliquely as the show always has. It gives me the impression that the creators actually intended to continue to play coy until they realized from the reaction to S4vol1 that a lot more viewers were finally getting wise to the subtext and they could no longer get away with it.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Dev F

[QuantumMechanic]

So why were the Hawkins crew carrying around bugzapper lights, anyways??

[Mediocre Gatsby]

10 hours ago, toodywoody said:

Since we really didn't seen Brenner die, I'm expecting him to show up again. 

I'll be so pissed if that happens. Every time he comes back I'm like, "This guy again???"

I thought at least one character would point out that maybe Max is better off in a coma while her two broken arms and two broken legs heal! I thought she was a goner as soon as her limbs started breaking. I couldn't tell if she realized that it wasn't Lucas she was talking to (who was judging her about wishing that Billy would be out of her life) -- I hope so. 

This episode had too-long fight scenes for me. I hope that everyone being separate was a COVID thing and won't happen again. I didn't care about the Soviet Union scenes or the weird desert road trip. 

I continue to love Winona Ryder in this. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Mediocre Gatsby

[Jack Sampson]

The show was good but needed to be trimmed to 8 hour long episodes.

The Mind Flayer - the big bad - was created from a childhood drawing?  And Henry's creation doesn't come to help him?

Did everyone (including the Duffers) forget the Demogorgons can open their own portals?  Why would trapping them in an arena do anything?  What do they eat in the Upside Down?

Russia - all of it - was a lot of setup with almost no payoff.  And Hopper's injuries aren't things you can just rub some dirt on and walk off.

How did Hopper know where to contact Joyce?  She was in some form of WITSEC/relocation program.

El having to relearn her powers took too long and was pointless except for exposition.  She was barely back to where she was in S3.  As Papa said, she wasn't ready to face Henry until...the plot called for it.  It was as bad as Obi Wan getting re-powered by thinking about Leia.

The chemistry between the kids is the best part of ST.  It was a mistake to break up the team.

Whole story lines - like the trip to Suzie's and her weird home life - could have been cut.

The basketball team running around with guns was only slightly more believable than a Russian base under a shopping mall.

The kids are growing up and some of them are clearly growing into better actors while others struggle. 

In early interviews, the Duffers said we'd learn more about what the Upside Down is and how it works, but we didn't.  How are there buildings and objects moving around the UD?  What does it look like when a house is being built?  Does it just appear?  Copies of cars and bikes exist there and are where they are placed in the real world, why don't we see them moving around in the UD?  Wasn't the air horribly toxic in the UD in season 1?  I remember people needing hazmat suits.

[backhometome]

I thought the deaths were overhyped. I didn't feel attached to Eddie as I do the other characters.

I didn't like how they were still separated in groups taking out the big bad. 

Nancy and Jonathan need to be over. They dont work anymore.

Steve is still a sweetheart and glad he survived. Kinda worried when he started talking about a future family he would be a goner. But he is too beloved for them to kill him before the end. 

Will was so shafted this season. I cant even think of what he did that had any importance. Poor Noah. 

I loved the Max/El stuff. Sadie was really good. IMO better than Mille. 

Glad Joyce/Hopper finally kissed. 

Lucas/Max >>>>> Mike/El

[raven]

6 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

So why were the Hawkins crew carrying around bugzapper lights, anyways??

When you're in the "real" world, and the light glows/flashes strongly, that means that Vecna is in that area.  Once they located Vecna using the lights, they would keep his attention with Max and then the team was thinking that it meant he was in the attic, suspended and somewhat vulnerable.

I feel this season was a mess.   There seemed to be no point in keeping Hopper in Russia for 99.9% of the season.  If we had found out the Russians had discovered something about the UD or that their experiments on the creatures gave some kind of knowledge, than maybe, but we didn't.  The final fight, with Hop's plan of using the hive mind, was something already known.   The pilot character was beyond annoying and I didn't care about him at all.  If I do a re-watch, I'll be skipping all of the Russia scenes.  

Leaving El with Brenner for so long was also a mistake, IMO.  Having her confront her past was a good idea, but like Russia, it went on too long.  Though he was experimented on and used by Brenner, I have zero sympathy for Henry/Vecna/001 because he appeared to be a budding psychopath and he killed nearly all of the children.    Just die already, dude. 

The best part of the El/Brenner plot was her finally walking away from him.  Actually her pulling down the helicopter was pretty good too.

The Duffers were sure into torture this season.  Having a bad military faction go up against the scientists - who weren't exactly good either, I'm VERY disappointed in you, Owens, road to hell and all that - was a lazy choice and again, really added nothing to the plot except more torture and unnecessary extended scenes.  We could have had El deal with Brenner and her memories without all of that.  Also, the fact that they let the kids drive away in a very slow pizza truck was laughable.  They couldn't have tracked them down?  Maybe they were scared of El but the script didn't reflect that. 

The revenge driven jocks felt out of place in this story and also had a plot that dragged.  The Duffers couldn't have come up with another contrivance to keep Lucas from helping Max?  Blech.

I did watch the whole mess and there was a lot of good, you just have to wade through the unnecessary:

Sadie Sink was the MVP.  She was amazing.  Her conflicted feelings about Billy and her final speech where she talks about how she would sometimes wish he was dead was good writing and even better acting.   I always thought, from the beginning, that Max was conflicted about Billy's death.  You don't have to love someone to feel badly that they died, especially when they went out so horribly, esp someone that you've spent a good portion of your life with.  Mix in guilt and it's a potent package; Max is a young teen so feels responsible - actually, she says something along the lines of "I just stood there" and I was thinking "You couldn't have done anything anyway".  At her age you don't accept that.    That's not even taking into account the whole trauma of what happened with being chased by monsters.  Bouquets for Sadie Sink all the way.  ETA: when El was in Max's memory, I thought for sure the show was leading us to a repressed memory of Max's where she had been abused, maybe by Billy, maybe by his dad.  I'm glad that wasn't the case.

Max and Lucas making a movie date with cute drawings got to me because you knew something awful was going to happen.  Someone mentioned that of all the teens they have the most chemistry and I agree.  Lucas's journey, from wanting acceptance and back again, felt real and I wish we had spent a little more time on that.  Who wouldn't want that after spending time on the edge of death and fighting monsters?  Saving the world is cool and all but there's nothing wrong with wanting some normality, however you define it.  I took Lucas as joining the team and wanting to be popular as an effort to move away from the monsters - if he had broken up with Max to be popular, I would havefound that shallow, but he didn't.  I've always had a soft spot for Lucas and the scene where he's cradling Max - gah, that broke my heart.  

I disliked Eddie on sight until he was so gracious about Erica winning the game way back in the earlier episodes.  Then I liked him quite a bit and was sure he was destined for death.  It didn't seem like he accomplished much, except for trying to save Dustin - he kept the bats busy, which was good good for Steve/Nancy/Robin I guess?  Even though they were held down by the vines in the end.    Still, I felt with better writing we could have not had Eddie altogether and given Jonathan more to do; I mean, Jonathan is just there.  His scenes with Will were good though.   I realize they weren't in Hawkins but they could've gotten back more quickly or something.   Will needed more to do as well; I kept waiting for him and El to have a conversation about being bullied, but it never happened.

Honestly, I hope when the show wraps the final season that Nancy goes off to college and doesn't end up with Steve or Jonathan.  She is different from them both and maybe will want to settle down one day but she wasn't esp enamored of Steve's dream scenario and Jonathan can't seem to tell her he feels the need to stay with his mom and Will.   She should go off to college and do badass things there.  She said back in S1 she doesn't want her mother's life, doesn't want to settle.  I like Nancy being in charge of planning the missions, she is good at it.

I love Steve as much as the next person but he needs to find his own way.   Oddly enough, even though we get so little scenes of him, I feel that Jonathan knows what he wants right now and those plans are in direct conflict with the future that Nancy sees for herself.  He just doesn't know how to tell her that yet.

I was annoyed that they kept everyone separate for so long - the strength of the show is in the ensemble.  To me, most of the acting kudos are due to how well they all work together.  By adding new characters, even if they fit, you have to take time away from someone else.   We end up with there being too much time in some places and not enough in others.

That said, I think the separations were intended to highlight that our group is stronger together.  We see this in how poorly those fared who were on their own vs those with more support around them, with El being the key to it all.   I think that was the point of Mike's overlong "I love you" speech - when one of the group is in doubt, they need the affirmation of someone else to help bring them out and give them strength.  Even small scenes work, like Will and Jonathan.   Max is smart and tough and held out longer than anyone but couldn't do it on her own.  El saved her twice (I didn't think the show was going to kill Max, though I thought Lucas would be the key).    Hopper escapes one time but doesn't escape for good without help is another example.  Working together they overcome the monsters in the prison.  Eddie dies and maybe he wouldn't have if he hadn't separated himself from Dustin. 

The final shot of our heroes looking at what Vecna did to Hawkins, was so stagy it was kind of funny BUT it did make me think that if everyone had been in Hawkins at the same time, Vecna would be dead now and that's he's screwed in S5.    I hope they don't try to make his torturing, monologuing ass sympathetic.  Nope.  I also hope Brenner - who is the true villain of the story - is really and truly dead. 

I have a feeling that El doesn't make it out of the series alive. 

ETA:  The best thing about the Russia plot was when the group escaped, speeding through the guardrail, which was right out of "Stripes" for me.  😃

[JamieLynn832002]

18 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder what happened to Dmitri though.  I have to imagine he's a wanted man, but I remember him saying something about having a family, so he wouldn't just abandon them, right?

Dmitri would definitely be a wanted man in normal circumstances but maybe since it's seems like the prison fell into complete chaos resulting in pretty everyone's death immediately after the escape, he's okay? Although since he was already a prisoner for helping Hopper, it does seem unlikely he'd just be able to go back to his family/life.

[Redrum]

7 hours ago, Harvey said:

11's goal was to save Max. Max momentarily died and now she is in a vegetative state. Vecna also managed to create a huge gate into the world. How is it not a loss?

Yes I get that but how did One/Henry/Vecna create a huge gate into the world when he was clearly set on fire and also driven away from killing Eleven? Thats the ???? part of the equation. He was set on fire, he was forced to release all of his captives and seemed to disintegrate but apparently always had the power to open a portal to our world so.... why didn't he just do that without facing down Eleven and being set on fire like Freddie Kruger vs parental vigilantes?

[raven]

9 minutes ago, Redrum said:

He was set on fire, he was forced to release all of his captives and seemed to disintegrate but apparently always had the power to open a portal to our world so.... why didn't he just do that without facing down Eleven and being set on fire like Freddie Kruger vs parental vigilantes?

He needed to suck out Max's soul/memories or whatever to (magically/unexplained) open the 4th and final portal, which would create the breach between worlds.  He was able to do that enough so that the breach happened, though only in Hawkins - he had intended it to spread throughout our world.  Could still happen, I guess.

We know he started the process with Max because she elevates and her bones start to break.  His hold wasn't complete because she died before he was done and then she was brought back by El and is now in a coma.  Part of her might be hiding from him.

His physical body has transformed so he might be able to withstand the fire for a time.  I don't think he had burned down to ash, I think he disappeared/left/went back to the Upside Down.  Will feels him and says he is in pain but still out there.

He had no choice but to face down El, she kept interfering with his attempts to kill Max.  Then at the end when she's weakened, of course he has to monologue to give her time to get her strength back :D

The irony is that if her friends hadn't been trying to kill his physical body in Hawkins, El may have killed him in the upside down.

[QuantumMechanic]

2 hours ago, raven said:

When you're in the "real" world, and the light glows/flashes strongly, that means that Vecna is in that area.  Once they located Vecna using the lights, they would keep his attention with Max and then the team was thinking that it meant he was in the attic, suspended and somewhat vulnerable.

Oh, I understand why they were carrying lights.  Was wondering why they looked for all the world like bugzapper lights, though.  (And as someone who graduated high school in 1985 I never saw portable battery-powered lanterns that looked like that.)

[Redrum]

I mean, honestly, this was all so much handwaving and illogical nonsense :)

Point - basically the world wouldn't be ending if the Hawkins group had just done nothing and kept Max wearing her Kate Bush headset. Seriously.

[Cranberry]

9 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Point - basically the world wouldn't be ending if the Hawkins group had just done nothing and kept Max wearing her Kate Bush headset. Seriously.

But then El wouldn't have been able to piggyback in to (attempt to) kill him before he simply selected a different/unknown fourth victim and used them to open the final gate, right?