S41.E10: Baby With a Machine Gun

[himela]

I'm so happy to be wrong! I never want to see Shan again! I don't care who wins! The Cookout loses, Shan loses, I'm happy!

[North of Eden]

46 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

Oh my.  The dramatic music and the slow motion voting during the tie-breaker?  It was like the hero was dying in an action movie.

I think we know who the producers wanted to win.

I know right! I was almost brought to laughter because it was so OPERATIC.

[AntFTW]

You can read Lianna’s face and see she was not down with Deshawn and Danny’s plan.

[watch2much]

I don't like Ricard that much, but I have to respect his gameplay.  I like how, when Shan told him they were targeting him, he told her he needed time to "process it."  she wanted some kind of immediate response.  he apparently went thru all the possible scenarios and decided getting Shan out now was his best option.  he's very strategic.  It will be interesting to see who he aligns with now.

I expect Shan to be the next Paula White or Joel Osteen...."evangelicals" that bring in tons of money and live in luxury.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, KeithJ said:

Oh my.  The dramatic music and the slow motion voting during the tie-breaker?  It was like the hero was dying in an action movie.

I think we know who the producers wanted to win.

That's just what it made me think of -- the hero has risked his own life carrying someone out of a burning building and now he's slowly taking his last breath.

They missed such a good chance to play her cartoon hum at a slow, sad pace.

[LizBug]

Did anyone notice the feet placement during the Immunity Challenge?  I thought that feet were supposed to be parallel to each other ... that the way it was in the taped non-competitive preview.

BUT ... once they moved down a level, Danny's feet were too big to fit parallel and he put one slightly behind the other.  But, his ball got away from him anyway.

THEN ... in the showdown between Ricard and Xander, Ricard's feet weren't parallel.  One was slightly behind the other.  

SO ... that means they weren't really trying to balance on a smaller platform; they compensated and no one (Jeff) called them on it.

[Cheyanne11]

5 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

They missed such a good chance to play her cartoon hum at a slow, sad pace.

LOL!  Someone get on that!

And, can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm liking Ricard a lot more now.  His gameplay is strong and I can appreciate the type of bond he had with Shan, ie they both knew sooner or later they'd vote the other out and that it wasn't personal, it was 'business.' 

[fishcakes]

What happened to, "after the votes are read, the person will be asked to leave the Tribal Council area immediately"? Not, "say goodbye to Liana, praise Ricard, damn Deshawn, beg Jeff not to snuff her torch, talk about what a good game she played, say goodbye again, wait for everyone to tell her what a great player she is and that they love her, finally move her ass toward Ponderosa as an orchestral elegy plays her out." Good lord. The only thing missing was Elton John singing Candle in the Wind.

No doubt Shan will be on the next returning players season. The showrunners have decided that even though 90% of the audience reaction to her has been negative, we are just kidding, and they're going to keep bringing her back until they get tired of her or she's arrested for embezzling funds from her church.'

10 hours ago, Steph Sometimes said:

I thought this episode was weirdly funny. Liana guessing who they were talking about. "Shan? Erika?" I was hoping she'd name a few more people before landing on the correct guess.

Liana has done really well considering she's one of the dumbest people to ever play this game. She reminds me of Kat from One World, but without the likability. What was she even going on about at TC with, "I am a student. I study very complex subjects." No one asked her any of that, and what would even be a complex subject for her? Counting? Shapes?

Ricard has played a near-flawless game, but he's hard to like and therefore hard to root for. If he won, it would be well-deserved, but I'd rather see Erika take it. She misplayed it in waiting far too long to try to put together a counteralliance, but the dominant majority has been against her in a way that doesn't make sense. She's someone who's better to have as an ally than an antagonist. Deshawn and mmmaaaybe Xander have legitimate claims to the win, but Liana, Heather, and Danny don't seem to have done much of anything. Danny's the one I'd most like to hang out with (along with Naseer and Tiffany), but whether or not it's accurate, he's been edited to look like a follower.

Edited November 25, 2021 by fishcakes

[Quilt Fairy]

14 minutes ago, DallasGypsy said:

Did anyone notice the feet placement during the Immunity Challenge?  I thought that feet were supposed to be parallel to each other ... that the way it was in the taped non-competitive preview.

BUT ... once they moved down a level, Danny's feet were too big to fit parallel and he put one slightly behind the other.  But, his ball got away from him anyway.

THEN ... in the showdown between Ricard and Xander, Ricard's feet weren't parallel.  One was slightly behind the other.  

SO ... that means they weren't really trying to balance on a smaller platform; they compensated and no one (Jeff) called them on it.

How about hand placement?  I noticed that once they went to the 2nd stage and had to hold on lower on the pole, everyone was holding it so you could see that 2nd ring of tape, except for Shan.  Her hand was higher up, completely covering the tape.

[rr2911]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do get that Shan caused her own demise and I knew that she'd likely be going at some point, but I actually am a bit sad by her elimination. Yes, she could be frustrating at times and she made countless mistakes. And I guess, in hindsight, Ricard's thinking wasn't THAT bad.

However, with Shan's elimination, it now almost ensures Danny or Deshawn or Xander winning this game (at least in my head; if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised). Danny's name has never been brought up and it seems like he can skate to the end fairly easily. Deshawn has been personable and made some decent moves and is now fairly solid in terms of getting to the end. Xander seems to continue to skate by with his idol and has also done very well on challenges so I could see him beasting it out the last few comps. Plus, he has a pretty good case to make with a mixture of big moves and challenge wins. He could sway people, depending on who he's sitting beside. 

Shan was at least an obstacle for these three and now any of the three will very likely win. Heather has zero shot in winning, and even if she got to the end, she wouldn't get a vote. These players seem so threatened by Erika so I doubt, even if she got to the end, that she'd win. Ricard, I genuinely think screwed himself by not getting out one of Danny, Deshawn or Liana FIRST because none of them are going to be eager to keep Ricard. And Liana might get SOME votes but with how many bad moves she's made, I don't think anyone, besides Shan, will truly respect her enough to give her the win. 

 Again, totally get that Shan's snakey behaviour has cost her. But I think that women in these games, especially women who make moves, are vocal, and fight hard, are undervalued and underappreciated. See how people are so threatened by women like Erika and Shan and Liana that others are skating by. 

Yes, I know Xander, Ricard, and Deshawn's names have been thrown out. Obviously these men have gotten votes before. But they've been threatened by Xander's idol yet haven't voted him since their plan to flush out his idol. Deshawn only got votes during the Tribal that Sydney went home, in which Sydney was considered the bigger threat, and it was STILL more between Evvie and Sydney than Deshawn. Ricard's been lucky in winning challenges, for sure, but he decided to go with the three people who threw his name out and will easily target him next chance they get over someone that was at least going to keep him another few Tribals. Yes, Shan was snakey, and she may have chosen the four over Ricard eventually, but she wasn't going to turn on him yet AND Shan was even wavering on going with the four and could have taken Ricard. Yes, he had to get her out at some point, but he needed to get out Deshawn, Danny or Liana FIRST, because now there's nothing stopping those three from getting Ricard out next week. 

Maybe because, as a woman, I've seen this pattern before with women who either fight too hard and are deemed a threat or who haven't really done anything and are deemed a threat. Yet men like Danny, who are a clear threat to win at the end for doing nothing, or Xander/Deshawn, whose names have been out there but continue to survive, are able to fly under the radar and increase their chances to win. 

Erika keeps being called sneaky (has been called that since very early on) and yet did nothing to warrant that. So what, she's playing the game. Yet you don't see people calling Deshawn sneaky. Ricard says that he doesn't trust Deshawn, yet in the same breath says that he wants to go with him and Danny over Shan. But...why? What makes THEM more trustworthy than Shan? What makes them less dangerous than Shan? In hindsight, Ricard thinks he made this big move but it won't matter when he's gone before Final Tribal Council. 

It's just a shame that we've genuinely had some amazing female players this season (Shan, Evvie, Tiffany even) and they've been picked off or have no shot of winning because men are usually able to skate by and earn votes just based on that. Women DO tend to have to work harder or make flashier moves in order to get any votes. That's why Heather won't earn a single vote, Erika will find it difficult to earn votes despite making moves herself, and Liana won't be valued over players like Deshawn, Xander, and even Danny. Unless one of the women can get out those three on their own, they won't win the game.  

I still have some hope, but it's ALL going to depend on the next Tribal Council. If they get out Deshawn or Danny, then I think it's a good move. And if Xander goes the next week, even better.

 

I know I heard Shan call Erica sneaky also.  People sometimes use words that aren't the best ones to describe a person.  I actually think when sneaky is used to describe Erica, they are paying her a compliment, basically saying she is a good player.  Deshawn and Danny know how Liana and Shan play the game.  Erica is always had been viewed as the "always at the bottom" type player. 

[Blissfool]

3 hours ago, Leeds said:

Anybody who wears a fat velvet headband with fake pearls on a "desert island" deserves to be sent home.

Yes! I like Erika, but I have questioned that wardrobe choice since the first episode, as well as the blue puffy-sleeved blouse.

36 minutes ago, DallasGypsy said:

Did anyone notice the feet placement during the Immunity Challenge?  I thought that feet were supposed to be parallel to each other ... that the way it was in the taped non-competitive preview.

BUT ... once they moved down a level, Danny's feet were too big to fit parallel and he put one slightly behind the other.  But, his ball got away from him anyway.

THEN ... in the showdown between Ricard and Xander, Ricard's feet weren't parallel.  One was slightly behind the other.  

SO ... that means they weren't really trying to balance on a smaller platform; they compensated and no one (Jeff) called them on it.

I think it was ok to allow them to "compensate," otherwise it wouldn't be fair to the people with bigger feet.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Blissfool

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Maybe because, as a woman, I've seen this pattern before with women who either fight too hard and are deemed a threat or who haven't really done anything and are deemed a threat. Yet men like Danny, who are a clear threat to win at the end for doing nothing, or Xander/Deshawn, whose names have been out there but continue to survive, are able to fly under the radar and increase their chances to win. 

I agree 1000%! I can see why Shan was viewed as a threat, but Tiffany? Evvie? Erika? Heather?? What??? 

Also, right from episode one I've heard so many people attacking Shan both inside the game and online for being too aggressive, shady, manipulative, while people like Boston Rob have always been idolized for doing exactly the same and much worse. Not fair. 

For something completely different, I decided last night that I'd LOVE to see a ten minute montage of nothing but people whinging and complaining about the conditions. How hot, tired, itchy, constipated, nauseous, starving, smelly and exhausted they are.

Is Bear Grylls editing this show? A team of Navy Seals? Whoever they are they're oblivious to all things related to comfort. It's all strategy all the time. Heck, they didn't even show us the pizza last night, (or maybe 3 seconds of it?) or the blissful enjoyment the Survivors must have felt eating it. 

Obviously, I'm very comfort-focused. No wonder I'm not a Navy Seal. (Apart from age, fitness, motivation and nationality.) 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Melina22

[Lantern7]

Caught the episode last night. Still not feeling attached, in the sense that I didn’t run outside and perform cartwheels after Shan got voted out. Once again, I get it. I’m just not caring enough, so I give her slack. “She’s dramatic and disingenuous? Okay, let me go to my Survivor Mental Archives. Damn, a lot of shit has vanished on me over the years! Well, she didn’t nail Ricard upside the head with a crowbar. She’s just annoying and prone to humming.” Also, I think Survivor no longer being “water cooler” television makes being heavily invested less of a priority.

This was a good episode because of a lack of plot devices raining down on camp, as well as Probst not going beyond 100 percent in what he thinks people want him to be.

2 hours ago, watchingtvaddict said:

Shan: Don't do it Jeff.. don't do it. 

Jeff: I take no joy in this. 

Shan: I know. I played a good game and this was a dream come true (turns to Ricard) I love you babe.

Has Jeff ever stated his opinion about a vote at tribal before? 

In my head after reading the post: “I take no joy in this.” Turn to the camera. “This is the best part of my job!”

Down with challenges ending on a puzzle. Down with endurance contests.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Lantern7

[TVbitch]

I'm rooting for Ricard. He's a cool customer. Doesn't freak out, doesn't cry, good strategist, handles situations, wins challenges. He was the only one who really knew how to manage and get his way with Shan. He needs to get hold of an idol though. Erika could still win me over. Not sure why the guys in the majority decided to upset their alliance apple cart with a Ricard vote instead of just voting out Erika, or at least they should have waited to see if Ricard won immunity before floating that out there.  

[DEL901]

I think Shan was the architect of her own demise.  She said that she and Ricard knew they’d have to go after each other at some point, but what she really meant was that she wanted to keep him as long as he was useful to her.  And then she’d get rid of him. It never occurred to her that he might strike first, even when she was voted out.   As well, she should have waited until AFTER the immunity challenge to spill the beans to Ricard and give him time to counter up the plan. 

[Steph Sometimes]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do get that Shan caused her own demise and I knew that she'd likely be going at some point, but I actually am a bit sad by her elimination. Yes, she could be frustrating at times and she made countless mistakes. And I guess, in hindsight, Ricard's thinking wasn't THAT bad.

However, with Shan's elimination, it now almost ensures Danny or Deshawn or Xander winning this game (at least in my head; if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised). Danny's name has never been brought up and it seems like he can skate to the end fairly easily. Deshawn has been personable and made some decent moves and is now fairly solid in terms of getting to the end. Xander seems to continue to skate by with his idol and has also done very well on challenges so I could see him beasting it out the last few comps. Plus, he has a pretty good case to make with a mixture of big moves and challenge wins. He could sway people, depending on who he's sitting beside. 

Shan was at least an obstacle for these three and now any of the three will very likely win. Heather has zero shot in winning, and even if she got to the end, she wouldn't get a vote. These players seem so threatened by Erika so I doubt, even if she got to the end, that she'd win. Ricard, I genuinely think screwed himself by not getting out one of Danny, Deshawn or Liana FIRST because none of them are going to be eager to keep Ricard. And Liana might get SOME votes but with how many bad moves she's made, I don't think anyone, besides Shan, will truly respect her enough to give her the win. 

 Again, totally get that Shan's snakey behaviour has cost her. But I think that women in these games, especially women who make moves, are vocal, and fight hard, are undervalued and underappreciated. See how people are so threatened by women like Erika and Shan and Liana that others are skating by. 

I agree with this 100%. I'm not the hugest Shan fan, but I was disappointed by last night's vote. First part of the episode was shaping up to be either Ricard of Deshawn going home which would've been fine with me, but then it turned into Shan vs Liana vs Erika. 

I have nothing against Danny or Deshawn (who are both likable) or Ricard (who is interesting to watch) or Xander (I'm not the hugest fan, but I don't have Liana levels of hate towards him either), but I was really hoping a woman would win and Shan seemed to be the best shot. I assume Erika will be out next. I remember two seasons -- HHH and IoI (is that how Island of the Idols is abbreviated? it looks like LOL and that was not the reaction I had to that season) -- where I thought the women were, with a few exceptions, so much more interesting and strategic than the men. And men won both those games. 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Steph Sometimes

[WearyTraveler]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But IMO it made little sense getting rid of her now for Danny, DeShawn and Ricard. 

To me, it made perfect sense for Ricard. He knew Shan was in the African American alliance of 4 and he was a fifth only as a number. He knew the 4 were gunning for anyone that was not them, as in the tribal councils after the merge they have been picking off everyone else and threw down the names of people they were supposedly working with (e.g. Naseer). They have got rid of Tiffany, Evvie, and Naseer, and have thrown out Xander, Erika and Heather's names more than once.

Clearly, the writing was on the wall for Ricard to read: if he voted with the 4, Xander, Erika and Heather would have been picked off one by one; then, it would have been his turn to go. I'm pretty sure Shan was probably betting on that scenario. If Ricard hadn't gone to DeShawn with his plan, then one of Erika, Xander or Heather would have been voted out, and then he wouldn't have had the numbers to vote out Shan.

He had to strike while the iron was hot. The iron being DeShawn being pissed off that Shan "betrayed" him. If he waits, who knows what new advantage or idol would be thrown out there that the 4 could take advantage of, or if Shan gets paranoid, or sniffs a plot against her and plays her idol to save herself? As it was, she was trusting that because she warned Ricard about the threat against him, he would still vote with her, and she was pretty convinced she was not a target.

That's the best time to strike. Now Ricard can go from being a fifth wheel in a strong alliance of 4 with the certainty he would be voted out at final 5 TC to potentially having an alliance of 4 for himself with Xander, Heather and Erika against an alliance of 3 with DeShawn, Danny and Liana. Erika and Heather, who have been at the bottom of their tribe and alliances since the very beginning, can now vote off strong players like Danny and DeShawn, if they want to.

And Erika can now claim she had a hand in orchestrating Shan's ousting, as can Ricard.

As I see it, the bottom players just managed to become the top players, and all because two alpha personalities like Shan and DeShawn were too proud and paranoid to trust each other. DeShawn was right that Ricard is a threat, but he could have waited to put his name down a little while longer. But he couldn't trust Shan, and Shan didn't trust him or anyone else that didn't do what she wanted them to do, so, there you have it.

Edited November 25, 2021 by WearyTraveler
Corrected a name

[Steph Sometimes]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

Liana has done really well considering she's one of the dumbest people to ever play this game. She reminds me of Kat from One World, but without the likability

That's hilarious. Kat's dumbness was entertaining though.

Liana didn't seem that dumb at the beginning when she was on her initial tribe. I remember when people were comparing that tribe to the Brains tribe with Xander reminding people of Spencer. I continued the comparison by thinking Liana would be like Tasha (at that point, Liana just seemed good at challenges and reasonably sensible). Now I feel like I should apologize to Tasha.

[simplyme]

It's possible Erika may be victim of some implicit bias from the rest of the tribe. 

Asians are often stereotyped as smart. Leading on from that is the “Asians, particularly women, are sneaky” stereotype. People may not even realize that they have this stereotype in US culture, much less that they've internalized it.

But when you look at who is getting what terms used for them, yeah. It's the AAPI woman who gets "sneaky."

Liz Kim is Samoa talked about Asian stereotypes.

**I intended to put this in the Race and Gender in Survivor thread, but after about 7 pages of searching gave up and figured it was Turkey Day. here was fine. If a mod can find that thread and move this for me, great. Sorry.

**Happy American Thanksgiving. 

[Hera]

22 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

To me, it made perfect sense for Ricard. He knew Shan was in the African American alliance of 4 and he was a fifth only as a number. He knew the 4 were gunning for anyone that was not them, as in the tribal councils after the merge they have been picking off everyone else and threw down the names of people they were supposedly working with (e.g. Naseer). They have got rid of Tiffany, Evvie, and Naseer, and have thrown out Xander, Erika and Heather's names more than once.

I generally agree with this, with the caveat that I'm not sure that Shan would have cut Ricard in favor of the Black alliance, simply because even after that alliance was solidified, she mentioned that Ricard was still her "number one" in the game. My suspicion is that Shan recognized that that alliance was two pairs (Shan/Liana and Danny/Deshawn) and was always ready to bolt from it. I think she probably was planning to use Ricard and Liana to take out one of Danny and Deshawn (whichever one she thought was a bigger danger) at Final 5.

But even in that case, it's bad for Ricard's game because it relies on Shan deciding to stick with him at final five, and means he won't be able to win if he gets to Final Tribal Council. He's already mentioned feeling like he's been in Shan's shadow, and if anything, that route to the end puts him even more firmly in it. This was absolutely the right call on this part, even though it gives him a more difficult route to the end.

Unrelated to the above, I think Deshawn is getting credit for a much better game than the one he has actually played so far: he's only been successful at removing two former Yase members from the game (though not Xander, nor have either one of Xander's advantages been flushed) and I don't know how much he was the driving force behind that—it seemed like he might have genuinely wanted to work with Evvie. Meanwhile, the two people he has previously identified as his targets are Erika, who is still in the game, and Naseer, who is out of the game, but not because of anything Deshawn did. He also can't claim credit for this recent Shan/Liana split vote, which was the work of Erika and Ricard. Basically, if Deshawn makes it to the end, I'm wondering what is on his Survivor résumé up to Final Seven? Same for Danny, really, but Danny seems to be the designated likeability threat, rather than the strategic one that Deshawn supposedly is.

Erika and Ricard, on the other hand, have been instrumental in two votes that resulted in people with idols leaving the game. Potentially Heather, too, though the editing doesn't give her as much credit as it does Erika.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, fishcakes said:

Ricard has played a near-flawless game, but he's hard to like and therefore hard to root for.

A funny thing happened on the way to Tribal -- my disdain for Shan completely neutralized my original dislike of Ricard and Zen-der.   The humming, the "culture alliance," the Christian posturing while seeking to deprive others of winning a million, her delight in her own cleverness  ... it was a tsunami of "ugh" that made Ricard and Xander seem refreshing by comparison.  

[fishcakes]

16 minutes ago, Hera said:

But even in that case, it's bad for Ricard's game because it relies on Shan deciding to stick with him at final five, and means he won't be able to win if he gets to Final Tribal Council. He's already mentioned feeling like he's been in Shan's shadow, and if anything, that route to the end puts him even more firmly in it. This was absolutely the right call on this part, even though it gives him a more difficult route to the end.

I think Ricard will be okay if he can pull Erika, Heather, and Xander together against Danny and Deshawn, which is not at all a certainty, given how much everyone seems to want to be in D&D's alliance. The four of them could easily take out Danny, Deshawn, and less critically, Liana, but I could see Erika and Heather getting reeled back into a Blue Alliance that really never existed; it just seemed like it did because they never had to vote anyone out.

24 minutes ago, Hera said:

Unrelated to the above, I think Deshawn is getting credit for a much better game than the one he has actually played so far:

Deshawn seems to be a good player who's playing badly, if that makes sense. He has good instincts, but as we saw in his TH last night he's torn between playing for his alliance and playing for himself. Before I thought he was just lying to everyone, like Evvie for example, when he said he wanted to work with them, but now I think he really meant it, but then he'd get pulled in a different direction.

[Blissfool]

I'm not a fan of Shan, Liana, or Ricard, but I think their friendship/bond seems so sincere. Their discussions make my emotions run from so much empathy to downright shock. When Liana was crying and talking about her bond with Shan, I couldn't help but get a lump in my throat. When Ricard revealed that it was time to get rid of Shan, I gasped and felt betrayed. When he apologized to her at Tribal Council, my friend insinuated that he didn't mean it. I told him, "yes, he does. He loves her." I don't like these 3 on Survivor but I admire their friendship. 

[Leeds]

2 hours ago, simplyme said:

It's possible Erika may be victim of some implicit bias from the rest of the tribe. 

Asians are often stereotyped as smart. Leading on from that is the “Asians, particularly women, are sneaky” stereotype. People may not even realize that they have this stereotype in US culture, much less that they've internalized it.

But when you look at who is getting what terms used for them, yeah. It's the AAPI woman who gets "sneaky."

 

What's AAPI?

[virginia blue]

I’m trying to think of a reason why Xander, Ricard, Heather and Erika wouldn’t vote either Danny or DeShawn out at the next tribal. They are both immunity threats and you wouldn’t want to go to final tribal council with either one. It seems so obvious to me that there’s no way it will happen.

[himela]

5 minutes ago, virginia blue said:

I’m trying to think of a reason why Xander, Ricard, Heather and Erika wouldn’t vote either Danny or DeShawn out at the next tribal. They are both immunity threats and you wouldn’t want to go to final tribal council with either one. It seems so obvious to me that there’s no way it will happen.

To be honest it seems like it's the logical thing to do but I'm sure something will make them lose their sense of logic. :P

[ProfCrash]

2 hours ago, Leeds said:

What's AAPI?

Asian American Pacific Islander

[Andyourlittledog2]

17 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Erika is certainly smart, but I hate it when a woman’s unexpected intelligence is deemed “sneaky”.

I have thought for a while now that this unexplained derision of 'sneaky' in regards to Erika, who has seemed harmless and kind of sidelined most of this season, was due to some ethnic bias on the part of the players who keep saying that.  'Sneaky' is a term I've often seen used to attack Asian people.

But then she does this on this episode so perhaps they are seeing an Erika the viewers are not.  I honestly don't know, but I'll bet that her tribemates don't underestimate her again any time soon.

Interesting take on Ricard and his hearing making him seem calculating. I think he is calculating in the game but the perception of it may indeed be due to his concentration on conversations he has trouble hearing clearly. I have found that I like Ricard a lot more than I thought I would.

And since it can't be said enough: Shan is gone! Thank you Survivor.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!

[Blissfool]

Ricard is a strategic player but he messed up taking Shan to the pizza reward. He was supposed to keep her at camp to shoot down* any negative discussions about him.

*baby with a machine gun 😁

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

To me, it made perfect sense for Ricard. He knew Shan was in the African American alliance of 4 and he was a fifth only as a number. He knew the 4 were gunning for anyone that was not them, as in the tribal councils after the merge they have been picking off everyone else and threw down the names of people they were supposedly working with (e.g. Naseer). They have got rid of Tiffany, Evvie, and Naseer, and have thrown out Xander, Erika and Heather's names more than once.

Clearly, the writing was on the wall for Ricard to read: if he voted with the 4, Xander, Erika and Heather would have been picked off one by one; then, it would have been his turn to go. I'm pretty sure Shan was probably betting on that scenario. If Ricard hadn't gone to DeShawn with his plan, then one of Erika, Xander or Heather would have been voted out, and then he wouldn't have had the numbers to vote out Shan.

He had to strike while the iron was hot. The iron being DeShawn being pissed off that Shan "betrayed" him. If he waits, who knows what new advantage or idol would be thrown out there that the 4 could take advantage of, or if Shan gets paranoid, or sniffs a plot against her and plays her idol to save herself? As it was, she was trusting that because she warned Ricard about the threat against him, he would still vote with her, and she was pretty convinced she was not a target.

That's the best time to strike. Now Ricard can go from being a fifth wheel in a strong alliance of 4 with the certainty he would be voted out at final 5 TC to potentially having an alliance of 4 for himself with Xander, Heather and Erika against an alliance of 3 with DeShawn, Danny and Liana. Erika and Heather, who have been at the bottom of their tribe and alliances since the very beginning, can now vote off strong players like Danny and DeShawn, if they want to.

And Erika can now claim she had a hand in orchestrating Shan's ousting, as can Ricard.

As I see it, the bottom players just managed to become the top players, and all because two alpha personalities like Shan and DeShawn were too proud and paranoid to trust each other. DeShawn was right that Ricard is a threat, but he could have waited to put his name down a little while longer. But he couldn't trust Shan, and Shan didn't trust him or anyone else that didn't do what she wanted them to do, so, there you have it.

Ricard knows that DeShawn and Danny want him out. He knows this because Shan told him AND told him that Shan wasn't going to go along with it. If Ricard wants to weaken the AAA (as he should), there are three other people there he can target, two of whom have expressly targeted him and have zero protection. He could have cemented himself with Shan and possibly Liana if he had gone in either this direction or aimed to get Xander out. They could have been a relatively tight three person alliance with an idol at their disposal. Or he would probably be about as good as he is now.

There would have potentially been the numbers to vote Shan out for at least the next two votes IMO. Everyone but Liana would happily write Shan's name down at any point. The one wrinkle is if she had gotten wise, she had played her idol. I don't think that there is the certainty that Ricard would get voted out at 5 even assuming he didn't win individual immunity. I think that it's very likely that the AAA would prefer to go up against him than some of the others in the AAA, especially in the scenario where his game and Shan's were identical. 

Speaking of, if Shan had sensed danger and played her idol, what happens then? Probably not good things for Ricard. 

Now, he has a pretty scary Survivor resume: 

Came into the merge with only one person from his old tribe.

Two-time immunity challenge winner.

Key person in sending two people home with pocket idols.

It seems likely that he will be target number one unless he goes on an immunity run. I don't think that's better for him overall than attempting an easy vote of Xander/Erika (say), then working with whichever survives, Heather, and Shan to get rid of Danny/Deshawn or working with whichever survives, Heather and Danny/Deshawn to get rid of Shan. 

[deirdra]

Erika is Canadian and was the one that realized if Shan had sensed danger and played her idol, that she could go home, which is why she brought up the idea to split the vote that would have sent Liana home if Shan played her idol. The bottom of the group all realized it was a smart move as those without idols could have been voted out if they all voted for Shan & Shan played her idol.

Edited November 25, 2021 by deirdra

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I have thought for a while now that this unexplained derision of 'sneaky' in regards to Erika, who has seemed harmless and kind of sidelined most of this season, was due to some ethnic bias on the part of the players who keep saying that.  'Sneaky' is a term I've often seen used to attack Asian people.

My take on "sneaky" was merely that Erika is smart and does not belong to the alliance of whomever called her "sneaky."   I think a lot of times remarks are made on a throwaway basis but we as viewers imbue them with probably more significance than they deserve.  Another example was when Lianna said of Xander, "I hate his face."  That's the kind of superficial thing a person might say in a moment of extreme frustration, especially if your rival happens to be smiling at the time.   I don't think it went deeper than that.  I may be wrong, of course.  But that was my impression.

[Fretful]

It was very brief, but we saw a bit of Heather's game tonight.  She did a great job of convincing Danny that going along with the plan was his idea.  I think there's more to her than they show, in an under-the -radar way.  She's also done pretty well in the individual challenges (which DO seem very geared towards those with balance this season).

 

[Blissfool]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Ricard knows that DeShawn and Danny want him out. He knows this because Shan told him AND told him that Shan wasn't going to go along with it. If Ricard wants to weaken the AAA (as he should), there are three other people there he can target, two of whom have expressly targeted him and have zero protection. He could have cemented himself with Shan and possibly Liana if he had gone in either this direction or aimed to get Xander out. They could have been a relatively tight three person alliance with an idol at their disposal. Or he would probably be about as good as he is now.

There would have potentially been the numbers to vote Shan out for at least the next two votes 

I agree. I don't think it was the time for Ricard to get rid of Shan. He not only evicted someone that was not coming after him, but an ally. (This argument is used a lot on Big Brother. )

 

12 minutes ago, Fretful said:

It was very brief, but we saw a bit of Heather's game tonight.  She did a great job of convincing Danny that going along with the plan was his idea.  I think there's more to her than they show, in an under-the -radar way.  She's also done pretty well in the individual challenges (which DO seem very geared towards those with balance this season)

I noticed this too because it was a joke at my old workplace that in order to get our boss to do what we want we need to let him think it's his idea. 😁

[ProfCrash]

I think Ricard made a good move. There were 8 people remaining. Two of them have idols, Shan and Xander. Those idols are active through the final five tribal council. Each Tribal Council you go to increases the chance that the people with the idols play the idol because their opportunities are running out. 

Ricard knows that people see he and Shan as a pair and give credit for his moves to the both of them. Shan has been more out front with pushing their plan so it is logical to think that Shan would get more credit for the moves then Ricard. It means that Shan is not someone that Ricard wants to be in the finals with. 

Realistically this is a Wendall and his strategic partner situation and the other dude waited too long and couldn’t get Wendall out. 

Ricard was presented with a chance to take out a real threat to his game. Danny and Deshawn are really only tied into the AA alliance. Ricard was not really a part of that alliance. Erika and Heather are outsiders who know that they are not a part of Danny or Deshawns core alliance. Xander is trying to not be a target and is happy to be ignored and hold onto his idol and advantage. Liana is not going to want to work with Danny and DeShawn after they voted out Shan. Ricard can work with Xander, Erika, and Heather against Deshawn and Danny and maybe Liana. 

Shan had far more connections that made blindsiding her more difficult. Knock her out while you can. Erika and Heather saw the opening and made it work. Even more brilliantly, they managed to insure that Liana would be splintered off from Danny and DeShawn by getting three votes put on Liana. So even though Liana is going to be upset, she knows her alliance did not protect Shan or Liana. And that is on Erika for suggesting the plan and convincing the others to go with it. 

Ricard maintains flexibility in his numbers and votes out a threat at final tribal. He also sends a highly probable vote to win to the Jury. Erika managed to take advantage of the situation and create a large rift in the remaining big alliance. Danny and DeShawn are probably still seen as a threat and an easy target. 

How the hell does Xander still have an idol? They keep assuming that he is going to play the idol and don’t even put votes on him. Even worse, their dysfunction is loudly broadcast so Xander doesn’t feel the need to play his idol. Dude hasn’t even been a target. It is kind of amazing to watch. It makes me wonder what is happening in camp that Xander doesn’t seem to be enough of a threat for the finals that they are leaving him be. 

So now we have two pairs in the game, Danny and DeShawn and Heather and Erika. We have three solo players, Xander, Ricard, and Liana.  

[Wandering Snark]

I was just a little upset that they only had one big ball to balance. I love when Probst would sing out "And now John's balls are starting to separate!" and "Tim desperately needs to get his balls under control." Etc.

I feel robbed.

[Tiggertoo]

Anyone else yell at Jeff to shut up during the challenges?  He just talks so much. 
 

I almost feel like I have to rewatch this episode because I really thought that there was no way Shan was leaving.  
I felt like Liane made the dumbest move of the night when she told Shan about the plan.  Because of how they bonded on the mountain.  I’m sure Shan wouldn’t have been so sentimental.  She might even have been a little bit grateful that Richard was voted out with no blood in her hands. 

[violet and green]

48 minutes ago, Tiggertoo said:

I almost feel like I have to rewatch this episode because I really thought that there was no way Shan was leaving.  

Same.

There was this scene with Shan and Ricard talking and both of them smiling madly and showing so much tooth - perfect, white, shiny, even teeth - and I couldn't stop thinking about modern teeth...  Talk, talk, talk. I started plucking my eyebrows, so I guess I was bored.

Then Erika was 'sneaky' and 'a mastermind' because she came up with a split vote so that if Shan played her idol then she, Erika, would not be the one on the chopping block. According to Shan, Erika was 'sneaky' and Deshawn was 'sneaky' - for having a thought of their own - and then Shan, who I would describe as actually sneaky, got voted out, smiling. I will have to rewatch for a more satisfying micro-expression, I think!

[LanceM]

1 hour ago, Wandering Snark said:

I was just a little upset that they only had one big ball to balance. I love when Probst would sing out "And now John's balls are starting to separate!" and "Tim desperately needs to get his balls under control." Etc.

I feel robbed.

Well we did have Jeff telling everyone to hang on to their pole. So there was that.

[princelina]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:40 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

So much for the winner's edit.

I know people really don't like Shan. But IMO it made little sense getting rid of her now for Danny, DeShawn and Ricard. 

If the three of them had stuck together for one more vote, they could have blindsided Xander, flushed his idol , and/or gotten rid of Erika. 

Ricard undermined his closest ally for the crime of revealing to him that the people she was working with wanted him out. Now who does he have to trust? 

Danny and DeShawn went from having a tight four that they could potentially ride to the end to just them. Because if Liana has any sense at all (which fill in punchline here), she's going to feel betrayed and not want to work with them going forward.

Meanwhile, Xander is the biggest beneficiary. For some reason, people haven't put him to the test to make him have to play his idol, and he seems to be a real contender every immunity challenge. 

Why does this come down to Shan's manipulation as opposed to a genuine moment where two people bonded?

I don't know if I'd call it manipulation, but after her original conversation with Deshawn when he was waxing eloquent about how he was going to stick with her, I said to Mr P that she must have some real charisma because he's basically been hating her for the last couple weeks but is still ready to stick with her.  And I think what we don't get in our living rooms is the paranoia that they must feel when hearing that others are talking about them/lying to them.  I'd have a hard time making a decision with that!  I found Shan to be an annoying person, but her game was pretty good; IMO she just overplayed her hand at times, like today when Ricard said he wanted time to process, and she immediately ramped up and started whining about him not believing her.  She had a little too much expectation that everybody would roll with whatever she said at all times, and when they didn't she got all pissy.

22 hours ago, vb68 said:

I buy she genuinely bonded with Liana. Not so much with DeShawn.  Granted I wasn't out there, but I did see Shan playing everyone HARD.

And one of the first things she did at the merge was throw Liana under the bus to her old tribe about having that advantage.

 

 

[Fake Jan Brady]

1 hour ago, Tiggertoo said:

Anyone else yell at Jeff to shut up during the challenges?  He just talks so much. 

"Other than a few birds chirping, not a single sound".

[Blissfool]

1 hour ago, princelina said:

I don't know if I'd call it manipulation, but after her original conversation with Deshawn when he was waxing eloquent about how he was going to stick with her, I said to Mr P that she must have some real charisma because he's basically been hating her for the last couple weeks but is still ready to stick with her.  And I think what we don't get in our living rooms is the paranoia that they must feel when hearing that others are talking about them/lying to them.  I'd have a hard time making a decision with that! 

 

I seriously don't understand how Xander can go to Tribal Council and keep his idol in his pocket. How is he so sure that he's safe!? If I was Xander and I saw and heard Ricard and Shan in deep conversation about their alliance at the Pizza Reward and then I had Ricard come to me the next day and tell me, "Don't use your idol. We're all voting for Shan" I would definitely not believe him and would definitely use my idol.

[iMonrey]

I cheered at Shan's eviction but I'm not really sure it was Ricard's best move. I kind of think it would have been smarter to vote out DeShawn. Xander, Erika and Heather have been the strongest and easiest targets, and nobody is looking at Danny or DeShawn. They seem to be taking a cakewalk to the final three. 

That said, I do think Shan overplayed her hand. And that probably explains why this season has focused so heavily on her. Build them up so you can break them down. That seems to have been the over arching story. She's been the hardest player.

Which makes me think the finale will be anti-climactic. We'll wind up with a winner who just didn't play very hard, didn't make a lot of big moves, and didn't draw a lot of attention to themselves, but stayed under the radar and survived simply because they evaded the traps all of the gimmicks and twists and advantages and idols that put focus on everyone else. Congrats! You win, because nobody cared.

[violet and green]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Which makes me think the finale will be anti-climactic. We'll wind up with a winner who just didn't play very hard, didn't make a lot of big moves, and didn't draw a lot of attention to themselves, but stayed under the radar and survived simply because they evaded the traps all of the gimmicks and twists and advantages and idols that put focus on everyone else. Congrats! You win, because nobody cared.

Xander would be a good winner. Nerves of steel and a good way with words - I think he'd do well in a final tribal, if he can manage to get there.

[MsTree]

18 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 Again, totally get that Shan's snakey behaviour has cost her. But I think that women in these games, especially women who make moves, are vocal, and fight hard, are undervalued and underappreciated.

I hear what you're saying, but it's really irritating when the first thing they want to do is band together for an "all girls" alliance. And in some instances, it's even before they really get to know one another. Shit like this makes me long for the early days of Survivor when Dr. Sean evicted based on the alphabet 😁😁😁

[SVNBob]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:01 PM, mojoween said:

 She said there’s no hard feelings, but her parting comments show that was a lie.

Well she did admit at TC that she was a liar...as was everyone else.

On 11/24/2021 at 8:17 PM, LadyChatts said:

Also props to Erika, I understand why she wanted to split the vote, because she knew she was in danger.  It was bold and maybe have exposed her as more of a gamer.  She's clearly being underestimated. 

Given that they all keep calling her "sneaky", I don't think they're underestimating her.  But she's been tinted purple enough by the edit that the viewing audience might be underestimating her.

On 11/24/2021 at 10:02 PM, Hera said:

As for not flushing Xander's idol, Xander isn't calling any shots right now. There's no urgent need to get him out and given that he didn't use his idol to save Tiffany or Evvie, it's a safe bet that he isn't going to hand it over to anyone else who might be in trouble. Erika said he doesn't really have any connections to anyone in the game, which makes me wonder if he's actually the goat of the season, despite his reasonably positive edit.

Which he himself noted at TC.  He lamented the fact that his very public "hidden" idol has effectively made him a persona non grata... until he's needed as a number in a vote like this one.

 

[momlyd]

19 hours ago, simplyme said:

It's possible Erika may be victim of some implicit bias from the rest of the tribe. 

 

I think it goes past possible into probable if not actual. 

[watchingtvaddict]

Erika being called "sneaky" ... I don't think "sneaky" can be seen as anything but negative. 

I'd prefer the terms "cunning" or "strategic". Because Erika definitely understands Survivor and she has a great strategy. 

She knows how to pull back when she isn't on the chopping block. She also knew she needed to split the vote and protect herself when people were thinking about voting her out. Sure she got lucky with her "turn back time" advantage but at least she made the right decision. 

[ProfCrash]

I don’t think it is Xander’s idol that has him on the outs, I think it is that Xander, at the time of that vote, was the only person without an alliance of any sort. A floater. The alliances had to decide what they were doing and then if they needed Xander. Xander helped to vote out the two people who would have given him a chance to have a voice in the game or at least Xander did not save one of the two people who would have given him a chance to have a voice in the game. 

Xander is the traditional floater at this point and floaters tend not to get respect at the final tribal. And Xander is not winning all the competitions, he has won a few, so he can’t point to only being in the game because of his immunity streak. His second win was when there was double immunity on the line so even that will be slightly discounted. Xander has one big move, with Liana. He has not played his idol when it wasn’t needed. He has won one solo challenge. And then he was not a threat because he was a floater so people ignored him. That rarely is the resume of a winner. 

[JudyObscure]

I just watched it again and heard Shan call Deshawn, "sneaky" at the same time she was calling him smart.  It may be an insult to some people, but I think to others it just means the person is clever in a subtle sort of way.  Ericka and Deshawn both seem incredibly smart to me now and I wouldn't have said that earlier in the season.   They both cover their intelligence with a casual attitude and humor. 

Ricard is also very smart, but you only have to look at him when he's doing a puzzle to see that lazar focus he throws at problems.  I'm hoping he makes it to the family visit, because as handsome as Ricard is I'm expecting great things in his partner.