S05.E05: A Long Road Home

[kitkat343]

On 1/6/2021 at 11:24 PM, Madding crowd said:

Legal abortion does not cause infertility so Kate did not have to tell Toby if she didn’t want to. She would have been asked her pregnancy history during her first Ob appointment, but maybe Toby wasn’t there. My husband didn’t go with me to all my appointments due to his schedule. I don’t think most people would want to confront an abuser in person, but maybe it was important to her.

I don’t see any romantic feelings between Kevin and Madison and I don’t see how she could expect him to give up his dreams and not act. I think he also wanted a nanny so Madison could pursue her own interests whatever they might be.

I am kind of curious about Laurel, but I feel Randall’s story seems to be about pulling him away from the Pearson’s and it makes me sad. I would rather see him and his siblings together. I wonder if they are looking at a spin off with Randall without Kevin and Kate. I did enjoy the episode but it made me sad like many of them do.

Legal abortion is one of the safest medical procedures, and much safer than giving birth.  However, when I underwent IVF I was told that the saline sonogram to check for uterine scarring which is normally strongly recommended for everyone was especially recommended for me because I had a D&C  after a miscarriage that didn't pass on its own (this is the exact same medical procedure as an abortion).  I was told by my fertility doctor that a D&C carries a very slight risk of uterine scarring, which usually can be easily corrected, but should be treated prior to undergoing IVF.  A saline sonogram is  used to check the uterus for scarring, and mine, like the overwhelming majority of patients who undergo a D&C  was absolutely fine.  My SIL however had scarring from a D&C following a miscarriage that was not tested for and caused two later miscarriages.   Then her doctors did a saline sonogram, discovered scarring, easily treated it, and she was able to have children after that.  I don't say this to support the antiabortion movement - a termination in the first trimester is much less risky than giving birth, but while undergoing fertility treatment, Kate absolutely should have disclosed a prior D&C because there is a very small risk of uterine scarring that can be easily treated.  She didn't have to tell Toby - she could have told the dr privately but it should be disclosed to the doctors who did her IVF.

Edited January 8, 2021 by kitkat343

[Madding crowd]

She didn’t say she kept the information from her doctors. Abortion and D&C are not exactly the same but I’m sure her doctors would have her medical information. She also would have tested to see if her reproductive parts were working well. When I was trying to get pregnant, I was asked once if I had ever gotten pregnant naturally and it was put in my electronic record. 

[LoveLeigh]

6 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

That being said, Kate's behavior of cyberstalking her ex, then randomly showing up at his work was super ridiculous.  At that point, she became the creeper ex instead of Marc.

I am not sure about that. I have called guys I really liked in college to confess I regret never letting them know my feelings. I was too shy at the time to even talk to them. I just stared at them in classes and thought of ways to connect and never followed through. And it felt good to Google their names, locate them and call and spill. They were flattered. 

Of course doing that was no replacement for what should have been my behavior decades ago, but it was better than doing nothing. You can't turn back time. And there was nothing greater than having those crushes. It was greater feelings than being engaged! 

Edited January 8, 2021 by LoveLeigh
typos

[sadie]

I was in a physically abusive relationship at 18 (to be explicit I got the crap beat out of me repeatedly), that lasted 2 years and I found what Kate did utterly embarrassing. The dirt bag that beat me up those 30 years ago still lives in my hometown and I have had zero interest in tracking him down to “confront” him. I did what healthy people do and got into therapy in my 30’s to deal with the trauma. Kate blaming every choice she’s made and every morsel of food she’s shoved into her mouth for 20 years was a ridiculous abdication of her free will and certainly explains how she got where she is, none of it’s her fault (in her opinion) and THAT is the problem, the problem hasn’t been confronting this loser, it’s been taking responsibility for her own life and I’m still not sure she gets it. She hasn’t been living on an island, she is a privileged upper class white person, the resources available to her are boundless. I hate hate hated this more than I can express. 

Why am I still watching this show I have no idea. 

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I am not sure about that. I have called guys I really liked in college to confess I regret never letting them know my feelings. I was too shy at the time to even talk to them. I just stared at them in classes and thought of ways to connect and never followed through. And it felt good to Google their names, locate them and call and spill. They were flattered. 

Of course doing that was no replacement for what should have been my behavior decades ago, but it was better than doing nothing. You can't turn back time. And there was nothing greater than having those crushes. It was greater feelings than being engaged! 

But, you called them.  You didn't physically show up.  

[RedDelicious]

To each their own. I think the point they were trying to convey is the stark difference in the trajectory of the lives of the three in the aftermath of tragically losing their father. Kevin was moving on with his life and Sophie, Randall was in college with Beth and Kate was in the relationship with Marc. We got some more insight as to how awful Marc was and how it affected Kate.

While I thought the confrontation was weird, and it's not something I would do, I admire her for having the courage to do it and I like that she asked Toby for his support rather than trying to do it on her own. I don't see her as having "cyber stalked" Marc. She just looked him up on FB. I think Kate used the term "cyber stalked" with a bit of humor and I liked that she was open and honest with Toby about it. 

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, sadie said:

I was in a physically abusive relationship at 18 (to be explicit I got the crap beat out of me repeatedly), that lasted 2 years and I found what Kate did utterly embarrassing. The dirt bag that beat me up those 30 years ago still lives in my hometown and I have had zero interest in tracking him down to “confront” him. I did what healthy people do and got into therapy in my 30’s to deal with the trauma. Kate blaming every choice she’s made and every morsel of food she’s shoved into her mouth for 20 years was a ridiculous abdication of her free will and certainly explains how she got where she is, none of it’s her fault (in her opinion) and THAT is the problem, the problem hasn’t been confronting this loser, it’s been taking responsibility for her own life and I’m still not sure she gets it. She hasn’t been living on an island, she is a privileged upper class white person, the resources available to her are boundless. I hate hate hated this more than I can express. 

Why am I still watching this show I have no idea. 

Kate has grown up very entitled because of how her father coddled her. I remember when she tried out for a singing group and when she did not automatically book the audition she started complaining that it must have been because of her weight. The person then showed her that Kate's singing was not even on the level of a background singer who has been trying for years to be a lead singer. Kate really expected to get the gig on one of her first auditions.

Rebecca never came down on Kate for anything because Jack often interfered and Rebecca tried too hard to be Kate's friend rather than her mother.

Then she was coddled by Kevin when he became successful. I know she was working as his assistant but being that she almost had a break down  (and was very rude) when she was ordering balloons for her nieces party, I doubt if she was doing much.

Even her interactions with Madison seem so artificial. It would always be Madison gushing about how awesome Kate is and Kate just staring at her bewildered.

My take is that when they cast Chrissy Metz (who is lovely) in the role, they had an epic story line planned where she (meaning the actress) would lose a giant amount of weight and go through an amazing transformation.

When they faced public backlash on forcing someone to lose weight, they simply did not know what to do with her.

Most of Kate's storylines always feel like afterthoughts.

Kate is dying to have a baby but refuses to lay still during a high risk pregnancy because she is such a dynamic ball of activity. Kate wants to be a music teacher even though she has no training in music or teaching, etc.

It is too bad because I would really like the only female triplet to have some interesting storylines beyond adorable little baby Jack.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by qtpye

[nixgirl28]

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

How old is Randall when Rebecca first sees william watching them? Was it before she took the babies home from the hospital? 

I believe she was sitting outside the hospital waiting for Jack to bring the car around...? I could be wrong I haven't seen it in awhile but Randall was a very tiny baby. 

[himela]

I didn't like this episode. I think Kate's abortion at 18 is a very indifferent subject to create a whole story out of it. Ok she had an abortion in the 90's, something that was really normal back then, so what? She is 40 years old, doesn't she see that she needs therapy? In my opinion, people should solve their issues before they go on having kids.

Regarding Kevin's story, I just don't care. He makes the mistake people 50 years earlier used to make. You can't bring kids in the world and raise them with someone you don't even know. It will make the kids think this is the way families should be and it will cause them psychological issues. If you create psychological trauma to your kids BEFORE they are even born, you are a bad parent already.

Randall. No. Just no.

I think this show should be over already. Nothing new and exciting to show anymore.

[hookedontv]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

Kate blaming every choice she’s made and every morsel of food she’s shoved into her mouth for 20 years was a ridiculous abdication of her free will and certainly explains how she got where she is, none of it’s her fault (in her opinion) and THAT is the problem, the problem hasn’t been confronting this loser, it’s been taking responsibility for her own life and I’m still not sure she gets it. She hasn’t been living on an island, she is a privileged upper class white person, the resources available to her are boundless. I hate hate hated this more than I can express. 

Why am I still watching this show I have no idea. 

^^^ This. 100%. ^^^

[BonnieD]

What the writers of dramas like this and Parenthood among others don't realize is that they don't need bizarre soap opera twists to keep an audience interested. I don't mind watching small every day dramas like the aftermath of that adoption that was so quickly swept under the rug. Or the deaf baby that was wrapped up in a season's time and now you don't even see little ? any longer. Slow the heck down and do justice to the REAL dramas of life instead of manufactured craziness.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Kate has grown up very entitled because of how her father coddled her. I remember when she tried out for a singing group and when she did not automatically book the audition she started complaining that it must have been because of her weight. The person then showed her that Kate's singing was not even on the level of a background singer who has been trying for years to be a lead singer. Kate really expected to get the gig on one of her first auditions.

Rebecca never came down on Kate for anything because Jack often interfered and Rebecca tried to hard to be Kate's friend rather than her mother.

Then she was coddled by Kevin when he became successful. I know she was working as his assistant but being that she almost had a break down  (and was very rude) when she was ordering balloons for her nieces party, I doubt if she was doing much.

Even her interactions with Madison seem so artificial. It would always be Madison gushing about how awesome Kate is and Kate just staring at her bewildered.

My take is that when they cast Chrissy Metz (who is lovely) in the role, they had an epic story line planned where she (meaning the actress) would lose a giant amount of weight and go through an amazing transformation.

When they faced public backlash on forcing someone to lose weight, they simply did not know what to do with her.

Most of Kate's storylines always feel like afterthoughts.

Kate is dying to have a baby but refuses to lay still because she is such a dynamic ball of activity. Kate wants to be a music teacher even though she has no training in music or teaching, etc.

It is too bad because I would really like the only female triplet to have some interesting storylines beyond adorable little baby Jack.

 

 

I wish I could give this post more than one like.  I think your take is completely correct.  Once the drastic weight loss storyline was cut, the writers have been scrambling to figure out anything for Kate.  So they went with the most trite stories possible--marriage, trying to have a baby, have baby, marriage slightly in trouble because of adjusting to new baby, etc.  Baby Jack's blindness reads as just a way to spice up the boring trajectory.*  And now we have Kate and Toby doing another adoption story.  

 

*I don't want anyone here to get the wrong impression.  I am all for the thoughtful inclusion of people with various disabilities being on my TV.  This is not thoughtful.  It feels like the writers decided to give Kate and Toby a child with some kind of issue and spun a wheel to determine what it would be. At least the show cast a blind actor for Adult Jack.  

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It feels like the writers decided to give Kate and Toby a child with some kind of issue and spun a wheel to determine what it would be.

This is Us Mad Libs. 

[buckboard]

Getting back to Kevin's call to Randall, I wish they had spent more time on Kevin's attempt to end to their estrangement.  The conversation seemed to be going well between the brothers when Randall out of the blue said he had to hang up to make another call -- RIGHT AWAY!  The notion that he had to immediately make a call -- in the middle of their seemingly good conversation -- made no sense and was in fact, very disrespectful.  Of course, Kevin had no idea why he was being blown off and it obviously hurt him after he had made such an effort to call his brother.  

[nixgirl28]

19 minutes ago, buckboard said:

Getting back to Kevin's call to Randall, I wish they had spent more time on Kevin's attempt to end to their estrangement.  The conversation seemed to be going well between the brothers when Randall out of the blue said he had to hang up to make another call -- RIGHT AWAY!  The notion that he had to immediately make a call -- in the middle of their seemingly good conversation -- made no sense and was in fact, very disrespectful.  Of course, Kevin had no idea why he was being blown off and it obviously hurt him after he had made such an effort to call his brother.  

Thank you! That felt like such a weird phone call. Randall was crying, obviously he was moved by Kevin reaching out, but the way he spoke to him, Kevin wouldn't have known it. He could've shown more acknowledgement of his brother's reaching out. And Kevin opening the door of "I'm so sorry you dealt with that alone, that must've been hard". Randall, he was trying to acknowledge your pain and trying to understand!! He was trying to get a dialogue started to make things right and show he cares! Instead he abruptly had to go for an important phone call. Uhmm, wasn't the phone call you were on pretty important? That entire phone call left me scratching my head. 

[ljenkins782]

On 1/5/2021 at 10:10 PM, t7686 said:

I’m a little disappointed in this episode, it was ok but sort of a frustrating one to use after such a long break. I feel for Kate and can relate 100% but it was weird of her to show up at that guy’s place of work like that. I think she should have mentioned the abortion- at least that would make it less creepy and random. She should have just written it all out in a letter and burned it instead. By confronting him she still gave him power. Toby seemed to be faking it a little, no? He just seemed slightly over her and her drama.

Kudos to the casting director for the guy who played both Marks, but especially the young one. It's incredible how you could watch this show with the sound off/no closed captioning and it would still be crystal clear exactly who that character is. Every detail is just note perfect in a depressing way.

I had a hard time buying the Kate tells off Mark scene. If he's supposed to be the same person who could be so cruel then, how on earth does he not comment on the hugely significant weight gain? Especially as she tears down his life and makes it clear that she now feels superior. 

And yeah, without mentioning the abortion, she left the impression that those 6 months with him defined her for life, which really gives him more power than he should have.

Quote

Randall - can I just say how happy I am his mother isn’t alive? God would that have been an annoying storyline. I’m glad he’s going to get closure but his conversation with Kevin was sad and frustrating. Can they just say sorry already? I miss the siblings actually talking to each other/ the family dynamic. 

I really hated the way Randall cut off the call. I know he had another call to make, but his dismissive tone and his word choices just seemed hurtful when Kevin was trying to extend an olive branch. Your estranged sibling reaches out to try to mend fences and you say "sorry to cut you off, but I have an important call to make" (in other words, the call you're already on ISN'T important). It just seemed kinda shitty. (ETA: ha, jinx, I see the 2 people above me just said the same thing).

I truly don't care about tracing Randall's mother's footsteps in New Orleans. I'm mildly curious why she never told William she was alive, but after that, nope. There are plenty of people already in Randall's orbit who have been part of the story since the start, plus all the other characters on the show and very little time left to wrap everyone's stuff up.

I felt for Beth when Randall walked in the door with yet another bombshell. She must get tired sometimes of the high drama that seems to surround him. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by ljenkins782

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, nixgirl28 said:

Thank you! That felt like such a weird phone call. Randall was crying, obviously he was moved by Kevin reaching out, but the way he spoke to him, Kevin wouldn't have known it. He could've shown more acknowledgement of his brother's reaching out. And Kevin opening the door of "I'm so sorry you dealt with that alone, that must've been hard". Randall, he was trying to acknowledge your pain and trying to understand!! He was trying to get a dialogue started to make things right and show he cares! Instead he abruptly had to go for an important phone call. Uhmm, wasn't the phone call you were on pretty important? That entire phone call left me scratching my head. 

When Randall first ended the call with Kevin, I thought he must have already reached out to the guy and had scheduled a phone call. But it turns out, the friend of his mom (I am forgetting his name) had no idea he was calling. Why not signal to Beth that he needs another 5 minutes to end the conversation with Kevin a bit more naturally.

[debraran]

56 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Kudos to the casting director for the guy who played both Marks, but especially the young one. It's incredible how you could watch this show with the sound off/no closed captioning and it would still be crystal clear exactly who that character is. Every detail is just note perfect in a depressing way.

I had a hard time buying the Kate tells off Mark scene. If he's supposed to be the same person who could be so cruel then, how on earth does he not comment on the hugely significant weight gain? Especially as she tears down his life and makes it clear that she now feels superior. 

And yeah, without mentioning the abortion, she left the impression that those 6 months with him defined her for life, which really gives him more power than he should have.

I really hated the way Randall cut off the call. I know he had another call to make, but his dismissive tone and his word choices just seemed hurtful when Kevin was trying to extend an olive branch. Your estranged sibling reaches out to try to mend fences and you say "sorry to cut you off, but I have an important call to make" (in other words, the call you're already on ISN'T important). It just seemed kinda shitty. (ETA: ha, jinx, I see the 2 people above me just said the same thing).

I truly don't care about tracing Randall's mother's footsteps in New Orleans. I'm mildly curious why she never told William she was alive, but after that, nope. There are plenty of people already in Randall's orbit who have been part of the story since the start, plus all the other characters on the show and very little time left to wrap everyone's stuff up.

I felt for Beth when Randall walked in the door with yet another bombshell. She must get tired sometimes of the high drama that seems to surround him. 

I agree, the writers wanted Randall to be short but one more line, "I have something big to tell you about bro, but I need to make a phone call" But they didn't want to do that. Kevin is always around, finding out you had a mom who lived and might be alive, I am with Randall, I would really want to find out about this and catch this guy while I can. It might seem rude but I understand how Kevin is always there but this bombshell was shaking him. The way it was written was just bad (on purpose I assume)

Kate's story has been weird and maybe as another post said, the writers didn't want her weight to be mentioned because Chrissy is that weight, BUT it was about her weight which was much heavier than when he saw her at 12 or 14 size. I'm surprised he recognized her or she thought he would. Why blame him (when the writers always blamed her dad which was odd) and give him that power? Write a letter, message him online, but go to him? I'm sorry, I just think it's weird. Why let him know you gained over a hundred pounds and were miserable over 6 months with him? He didn't even know about the abortion. It's just odd.

[CrystalBlue]

30 minutes ago, debraran said:

I agree, the writers wanted Randall to be short but one more line, "I have something big to tell you about bro, but I need to make a phone call" But they didn't want to do that. Kevin is always around, finding out you had a mom who lived and might be alive, I am with Randall, I would really want to find out about this and catch this guy while I can. It might seem rude but I understand how Kevin is always there but this bombshell was shaking him. The way it was written was just bad (on purpose I assume)

Kate's story has been weird and maybe as another post said, the writers didn't want her weight to be mentioned because Chrissy is that weight, BUT it was about her weight which was much heavier than when he saw her at 12 or 14 size. I'm surprised he recognized her or she thought he would. Why blame him (when the writers always blamed her dad which was odd) and give him that power? Write a letter, message him online, but go to him? I'm sorry, I just think it's weird. Why let him know you gained over a hundred pounds and were miserable over 6 months with him? He didn't even know about the abortion. It's just odd.

I'm not so sure Marc didn't know about the abortion.  Did he ever wonder what heavy thing Kate was going to tell him before he got annoyed (which Kate called him on; good for her) and wanted to just chill with a beer?  I guess he didn't want to know and Kate realized how alone she was going to be, so split (again, good for her).  Which makes me wonder why she didn't bring it up in SD after she and Toby drove all the way down to confront Marc.

[debraran]

44 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

I'm not so sure Marc didn't know about the abortion.  Did he ever wonder what heavy thing Kate was going to tell him before he got annoyed (which Kate called him on; good for her) and wanted to just chill with a beer?  I guess he didn't want to know and Kate realized how alone she was going to be, so split (again, good for her).  Which makes me wonder why she didn't bring it up in SD after she and Toby drove all the way down to confront Marc.

I see your point, but I feel that would have been even weirder. She was on a sidewalk too and exposed. She just told Toby and she is going to tell an guy who was a teenager really that 22 years ago, she was pregnant? She knew he wasn't "dad" material and she was emotionally hurting before, I don't really know why they had this story line. They already showed her having an affair with a married guy in her 20's, we got that she was emotionally fragile and floating through things in her life. It wasn't like Marc and her having that baby would have been a fairy tale.

I actually thought the Marc thing was pretty tame to most of our predictions on FB and other media. Many thought rape at the cabin or his apartment, many thought she was trying to get pregnant to trap him into staying with her, some thought he hit her, many scenarios. Even though a pregnancy at 18 in the 90's wasn't ideal or wanted, it seemed to fall flat accept to put another layer on her pain. She never really loved Marc, he just paid attention to her. I can't believe there wasn't another guy that would have, but not a "bad boy" maybe.

If I had unintentionally slighted a boy in high school, or broke up with one who was needy and he found me 25 years later to yell at me for hurting him and he had been unable to function etc, I'd think he needed to call his shrink. Marc was a creep but this should have been put to rest years ago sadly. Most therapists tell you to write your feelings down, write a letter, most don't suggest you send it, but I think there stillwill be Toby fall out. This will creep back in.

Edited January 9, 2021 by debraran

[gonzosgirrl]

There was absolutely no need for Randall to call that guy right that instant. That's twice now that Kevin reached out and was blown off so Randall could be precious.  I hope he doesn't do it again - it's Randall's turn. But I'm sure it won't be framed that way. Everybody has to understand Randall, while Randall has to understand no one but Randall. 

Edited January 9, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Kudos to the casting director for the guy who played both Marks, but especially the young one. It's incredible how you could watch this show with the sound off/no closed captioning and it would still be crystal clear exactly who that character is. Every detail is just note perfect in a depressing way.

I had a hard time buying the Kate tells off Mark scene. If he's supposed to be the same person who could be so cruel then, how on earth does he not comment on the hugely significant weight gain? Especially as she tears down his life and makes it clear that she now feels superior. 

And yeah, without mentioning the abortion, she left the impression that those 6 months with him defined her for life, which really gives him more power than he should have.

I really hated the way Randall cut off the call. I know he had another call to make, but his dismissive tone and his word choices just seemed hurtful when Kevin was trying to extend an olive branch. Your estranged sibling reaches out to try to mend fences and you say "sorry to cut you off, but I have an important call to make" (in other words, the call you're already on ISN'T important). It just seemed kinda shitty. (ETA: ha, jinx, I see the 2 people above me just said the same thing).

I truly don't care about tracing Randall's mother's footsteps in New Orleans. I'm mildly curious why she never told William she was alive, but after that, nope. There are plenty of people already in Randall's orbit who have been part of the story since the start, plus all the other characters on the show and very little time left to wrap everyone's stuff up.

I felt for Beth when Randall walked in the door with yet another bombshell. She must get tired sometimes of the high drama that seems to surround him. 

 

1 hour ago, debraran said:

I agree, the writers wanted Randall to be short but one more line, "I have something big to tell you about bro, but I need to make a phone call" But they didn't want to do that. Kevin is always around, finding out you had a mom who lived and might be alive, I am with Randall, I would really want to find out about this and catch this guy while I can. It might seem rude but I understand how Kevin is always there but this bombshell was shaking him. The way it was written was just bad (on purpose I assume)

Kate's story has been weird and maybe as another post said, the writers didn't want her weight to be mentioned because Chrissy is that weight, BUT it was about her weight which was much heavier than when he saw her at 12 or 14 size. I'm surprised he recognized her or she thought he would. Why blame him (when the writers always blamed her dad which was odd) and give him that power? Write a letter, message him online, but go to him? I'm sorry, I just think it's weird. Why let him know you gained over a hundred pounds and were miserable over 6 months with him? He didn't even know about the abortion. It's just odd.

I do not think it is so much about being sensitive to the actress as much as not wanting any backlash. I remember in the first season (where it was originally planned to have the weight loss storyline) they were much more open about the prejudices and toxicity Kate has to deal with in society being her size. 

Everything from Katy Sagal's character (who played Kevin's agent) calling her a big girl (thought not to her face but to someone else)…. to people on the airplane giving her dirty looks (she tells a lady not to worry because she bought two seats).

Kate is much more than her weight but it is ridiculous to totally ignore it.  For instance, when she was protesting for the Black Lives Matter movement...I really wondered how easy was it for her to be marching all day when she seems to have some mobility issues when she walks.

I have gained 25-30  pounds since I was in college (which was about 15 years ago). Whenever I meet someone from that time period who has not seen me for a while, they comment on it. They are not always trying to be cruel but it does come up (I would have never recognized you in a million years). So if fairly nice people comment about weight gain...you know an asshole like Marc would be down right nasty.

I imagine that anyone who has not seen Kate for 20 years would be pretty shocked at her appearance and it would probably be something they could not hide easily.

 

[Adgirl]

When Toby and Kate got in the car I was like now the Pearsons are going on roadtrips to deliver their speeches! Good grief. 

I ff'd through the Madison<>Kevin storyline because I just don't care. I don't like Madison. She gives me crazy ex-girlfriend vibes.  Can you imagine if Nicole Kidman had told Tom Cruise she didn't want him to make any movies after The Firm? (I mean Interview with a Vampire notwithstanding) Or Rita Wilson saying no Tom Hanks doing "Saving Private Ryan"...it's ridiculous and I resent her naivety and I've never been a fan of the character.

Oh Randall, you made me cry.  I hope he sues the PI. I thought Randall's call to Kevin in the flashback was a dick move tbh.  Unless someone is trying to be a rapper at 45 I don't think you should ever try and squash their dreams.  

[himela]

15 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

At least the show cast a blind actor for Adult Jack.  

The actor who played adult Jack is blind? I couldn't tell! 😮

[Jillybean]

I have to agree. The Marc we have been shown would comment on Kate's weight 10 out of 10 times. It's not about whether it's acceptable, it's about whether it's realistic. It wasn't.

[BetyBee]

I would never go on a long drive during a pandemic to chase down an abusive ex, but if I did, I'd keep my mask on while delivering a Pearson speech to him! Actor playing Marc has been tested. Real Marc doesn't seem the type to do social distancing, hand washing and mask wearing (except inside the store). 

[Luckylyn]

I do think realistically Marc is a jerk who would cruelly remark on Kate’s weight.   I don’t think he’d just stand there and listen to her.  But the writers are choosing to be considerate of the actresse’s feelings probably.  It’s a tightrope they are walking.  They got backlash for for not protecting the child actor who played Randall from hearing rascist dialog from Rebecca’s mother and so may want to avoid that with subjecting the actress playing Kate to harsh language about her weight.  She’s not wearing a fat suit.  Her size is real.  Whatever insult they could have written for Marc to say could be internalized by the actress.  I think of the Growing Pains situation where they had brother Mike make fat jokes about his sister Carol and how this triggered the actress playing Carol’s eating disorder.  They didn’t cause her disorder but did exacerbate it.

[Snapdragon]

4 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I do think realistically Marc is a jerk who would cruelly remark on Kate’s weight.   I don’t think he’d just stand there and listen to her.  But the writers are choosing to be considerate of the actresse’s feelings probably.  It’s a tightrope they are walking.  They got backlash for for not protecting the child actor who played Randall from hearing rascist dialog from Rebecca’s mother and so may want to avoid that with subjecting the actress playing Kate to harsh language about her weight.  She’s not wearing a fat suit.  Her size is real.  Whatever insult they could have written for Marc to say could be internalized by the actress.  I think of the Growing Pains situation where they had brother Mike make fat jokes about his sister Carol and how this triggered the actress playing Carol’s eating disorder.  They didn’t cause her disorder but did exacerbate it.

I would say the difference here is that in both the Tracey Gold case and the actor that played young Randall, they were actual children so it makes sense that they needed more shielding and protecting.  Chrissy is a grown woman who chose to enter a profession in which one is constantly judged on their looks.  I could see how it would be draining if every episode they had someone say something disparaging about her weight but she should be able to handle one line from a person playing an abusive ex.  And really, all they needed was for Marc to rudely say "Obviously" when Kate was saying how Marc's abuse caused her to over eat.  

[bros402]

On 1/8/2021 at 3:19 AM, Madding crowd said:

She didn’t say she kept the information from her doctors. Abortion and D&C are not exactly the same but I’m sure her doctors would have her medical information. She also would have tested to see if her reproductive parts were working well. When I was trying to get pregnant, I was asked once if I had ever gotten pregnant naturally and it was put in my electronic record. 

I mean I really doubt they'd have medical records from across the country from ~22 years ago. So she would've had to have told someone.

[LexieLily]

12 hours ago, Jillybean said:

I have to agree. The Marc we have been shown would comment on Kate's weight 10 out of 10 times. It's not about whether it's acceptable, it's about whether it's realistic. It wasn't.

Especially considering he hadn't seen her in twenty-odd years and more than likely never gave her a second thought after she up and left his apartment the day he didn't want to watch Airplane. It stretched credibility enough that he knew her last name by her telling him her name was Kate. The Marc that dated Kate would no doubt have a past littered with "damaged" women he dated and discarded.

[Marley]

I’m starting to dislike Randall. He had to be a douche and blow Kevin off like that. He acts like he did nothing wrong. And now I have to watch him go discover a bunch of shit about his birth mom. Bleh. Looks like there is gonna be a bunch of flashbacks too. Good thing tho saint Williams sainthood was kept intact tho. The whole thing is going to make no sense.

Kate tracking down Marc was embarrassing.

I used to love this show so much but not lately.

Also Madison is such a Debbie downer.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Marley

[CrystalBlue]

2 hours ago, Marley said:

I’m starting to dislike Randall. He had to be a douche and blow Kevin off like that. He acts like he did nothing wrong. And now I have to watch him go discover a bunch of shit about his birth mom. Bleh. Looks like their is gonna be a bunch of flashbacks too. Good thing tho saint Williams sainthood was kept intact tho. The whole thing is going to make no sense.

Kate tracking down Marc was embarrassing.

I used to love this show so much but not lately.

Also Madison is such a Debbie downer.

😄 😁

Starting to?  Where have you been?  😉

This has got to be the best and funniest post I've read so far in this thread.  Thanks for your humor and perfect observations.

 

[debraran]

3 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

😄 😁

Starting to?  Where have you been?  😉

This has got to be the best and funniest post I've read so far in this thread.  Thanks for your humor and perfect observations.

 

I think the writers should have done this sooner but I also wonder if Covid made them make some changes because of filming. Why they made Laurel alive and thought more characters were needed, IDK, but Randall finding his bio history is fine. Everyone is different but I would want to know what happened to me and how they took him home never made sense. Maybe if Randall was adopted at a year or two, and wasn't made a "triplet" it would make more sense, but TIU wanted this unbelievable story line and went with it. I thought the William episodes were well done and Randall confronting Rebecca. Who knows what we would have done but her fear was unfounded, her emotions and anxiety were real. I don't think she told Jack either which was really awful too because he might have done it for Randall. So much emotional angst because of lies. Happens to most of us at some point but watching it, it's easy to monday morning quarterback.  They have some fancy writing to do for me to buy having Laurel alive but not in Randall's life. I like Nicky, he was Jack's brother but do we need more cousins etc. We barely see Randall's kids.

They brought Marc in for another reason for Kate to spiral? I have no inside knowledge of course but I don't think if Chrissy lost weight and by this time was on her way to less anxiety and losing that protective wall, he would have been written in. It was always just Jack. They said they had alternative plans no matter what she did and this was probably in one of them.

Again I don't know why for 22 years  and now married with a baby, they keep blaming something 22 years ago. Why couldn't she just have anxiety issues and other things? Many of us emotional eat. Maybe a hormone issue. It puts a lot of pressure on Chrissy because now she should be "healed" People are talking of clothes to make her look heavier so she can lose weight. No matter what they do, it's always about her weight.  I don't feel we ever got to know Kate at all.

Edited January 10, 2021 by debraran

[Madding crowd]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

I mean I really doubt they'd have medical records from across the country from ~22 years ago. So she would've had to have told someone.

Not what I meant. We haven’t seen every appointment Kate had with her OB. She would have asked if she had any previous pregnancies. She wouldn’t be asked again at each appointment.

[himela]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

I don't feel we ever got to know Kate at all.

You are completely right and there's a reason for that; it's ALWAYS about the weight. In real life, obese people rarely get the chance to show their true personality and good traits because the exterior image other people see is so extremely strong, they almost can't see anything else. The writer has said from the pilot episode that Kate is based on the story of his obese sister for who "it's always about the weight". We see Kate in an earlier season as a teenager gettting ready for a singing performance, and then she sees her mom in the shower and hears her singing and she realizes, if her mom who is beautiful and with a good voice has just become a housewife, what will SHE (Kate) do being overweight and with not that great of a voice? So she decides she doesn't want to sing anymore.

Obese people can't hide the weight and can't avoid the attention it gets from other people, unless it's on the internet.

[debraran]

1 hour ago, himela said:

You are completely right and there's a reason for that; it's ALWAYS about the weight. In real life, obese people rarely get the chance to show their true personality and good traits because the exterior image other people see is so extremely strong, they almost can't see anything else. The writer has said from the pilot episode that Kate is based on the story of his obese sister for who "it's always about the weight". We see Kate in an earlier season as a teenager gettting ready for a singing performance, and then she sees her mom in the shower and hears her singing and she realizes, if her mom who is beautiful and with a good voice has just become a housewife, what will SHE (Kate) do being overweight and with not that great of a voice? So she decides she doesn't want to sing anymore.

Obese people can't hide the weight and can't avoid the attention it gets from other people, unless it's on the internet.

I agree to a point. My son's wife is not thin and some find a way to bring it up in a round-a-bout way and it's aggravating but not all are like that. My daughter's friend sung very well (don't know if in music world how well) and was in a state chorus. She was heavier than Kate at 15 and larger boned. Many of their friends were not size 4 like they were but it didn't effect them. Sure, if you are really heavy, which sounds like Dan's sister was, kids can be cruel but it's odd Kate was so alone. She had talents, why not hone them? Why did they make Kate less of a person. I'm not talking about how a neighbor might see her, but her parents. Why not get her involved in a hobby or outlet for things she was good in? She sung well, I'm sure she did other things well, it just seemed she was forgotten on the show. Kevin had sports and Randall was way too involved in school work but Kate?

When Kate was too young to shop, why not have less junk in the house? Why didn't the Pearson's go for family hikes or other activities and then get ice cream or a treat later? Why single Kate out? My aunt did that when kids were young, one gained easier but they swam and hiked and went to museums and any fun activity to keep them moving. I know it's a show but I just feel bad that her characters parents were so blind to her unless it was Jack spoiling her. She wasn't obese growing up, she seemed like a normal teen and child like many today and I saw growing up. I know what they did after Jack's death, I don't understand what they wanted for 16 years before that.

Just an observation. I feel for Chrissy, I know you become your character many times and she deserves more depth, not excuses to why she is the way she is.

Edited January 10, 2021 by debraran

[LoveLeigh]

On 1/8/2021 at 10:53 AM, Katy M said:

But, you called them.  You didn't physically show up.  

I couldn't. They were in other states. Perhaps I would have if they were living close to me. I am impulsive. 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

When Kate was too young to shop, why not have less junk in the house? Why didn't the Pearson's go for family hikes or other activities and then get ice cream or a treat later? Why single Kate out? My aunt did that when kids were young, one gained easier but they swam and hiked and went to museums and any fun activity to keep them moving. I know it's a show but I just feel bad that her characters parents were so blind to her unless it was Jack spoiling her. She wasn't obese growing up, she seemed like a normal teen and child like many today and I saw growing up. I know what they did after Jack's death, I don't understand what they wanted for 16 years before that.

Kate got down to size 7 before Jack died, so even despite Jack's coddling and treating unhealthy food as a reward during her childhood, she managed to get herself to a healthy weight. Then she started gaining after Jack died, and Rebecca became the "enabler." In one of the flashback episodes Kate said she'd gained 25 pounds in a year, to which Rebecca said it was OK and that she would buy more of Kate's favorite cookies on the next grocery run. Randall even commented on Kate's eating to Rebecca, but she shut that down. That was before all of the Marc drama, so he was not the catalyst for the overeating.

And honestly, the fact that Kate continued to gain weight for over a decade at that rate is completely on her, not on Jack, Marc, or Rebecca. Many people experience much worse traumas and figure out ways to cope. Most people also manage to grow out of dysfunctional childhood dynamics. Having a couple of bad years in young adulthood is understandable, but at some point you realize that you need to work on yourself and you do the work.

[MissLucas]

Randall and his trip to the past for getting to know his bio-mom makes perfect sense from a Watsonian POV but from a Doylist POV it's exasperating. 

[Rockstar99435]

I forgot to mention my two favorite parts, both from the brother phone call. (1) Sterling Brown's ability to get his eyes to water right on cue is incredible. It always amazes me when actors are able to do that. I can make myself cry, but it's going to involve a lot of huffy breathing and forcing myself to think of the saddest things I can imagine, and it's going to take awhile. Actors who can instantly make themselves create one single tear drop are something else. (2) Kevin's reassurance of how the shirtless dancing was playing in the public eye. It reminded me of him thinking that getting arrested breaking into Joni Mitchell's house with his mom could really work for him. I like that Kevin has repeatedly been shown to be really good at this part of his job.

[Crs97]

IIRC, Rebecca had Kate eating healthier food and Jack undermined it and made Rebecca to feel like she was wrong to address Kate’s weight.  He took Kate for ice cream, and it seemed to be a “Don’t tell Mom” secret between the two. After Jack’s death Rebecca inherited a daughter who had been raised by Jack to think, on that issue at least, that it was Kate and Jack vs. Rebecca.  I think Rebecca overcompensated to avoid alienating Kate further because you know Kate spent those years wishing Jack wasn’t  the parent who died.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Crs97

[Blakeston]

11 hours ago, debraran said:

Sure, if you are really heavy, which sounds like Dan's sister was, kids can be cruel but it's odd Kate was so alone. She had talents, why not hone them? Why did they make Kate less of a person. I'm not talking about how a neighbor might see her, but her parents. Why not get her involved in a hobby or outlet for things she was good in? She sung well, I'm sure she did other things well, it just seemed she was forgotten on the show. Kevin had sports and Randall was way too involved in school work but Kate?

It's downright bizarre that Kate seemed to have so few friends growing up.

If your brother is the most popular kid in school, and he adores you, he's going to make sure that you get included socially, and there are going to be a lot of kids who treat you nicely because of your association with him.

Nothing about Kate was so unusual that she wouldn't be able to have multiple friends. She was chubby during periods of her childhood, but so are a lot of kids. Her interests and style were fairly mainstream, and she seems to have had a decent sense of humor.

[bros402]

17 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Not what I meant. We haven’t seen every appointment Kate had with her OB. She would have asked if she had any previous pregnancies. She wouldn’t be asked again at each appointment.

Yeah, but I imagine it would be brought up a few times - at least when Kate and Toby were seeing the fertility doctor

[Ohiopirate02]

10 hours ago, Blakeston said:

It's downright bizarre that Kate seemed to have so few friends growing up.

If your brother is the most popular kid in school, and he adores you, he's going to make sure that you get included socially, and there are going to be a lot of kids who treat you nicely because of your association with him.

Nothing about Kate was so unusual that she wouldn't be able to have multiple friends. She was chubby during periods of her childhood, but so are a lot of kids. Her interests and style were fairly mainstream, and she seems to have had a decent sense of humor.

I don't see Teen Kate wanting to hang out with Kevin's circle of friends--the jocks and their girls.  She would have been hanging out with the alternative kids or the theatre kids.  They live in a suburb of Pittsburgh if not the city proper, so their high school would have been large.  There had to be a few Kurt Cobain wannabes who have bands in their garage/basement.  This show is not good for showing friendships in its main characters outside of Miguel.   

[MissLucas]

31 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This show is not good for showing friendships in its main characters outside of Miguel.   

And the writers know it - remember Randall's joke about Madison being the only friend of the family?

[Lastwaltz]

On 1/5/2021 at 10:17 PM, Empress1 said:

On 1/5/2021 at 10:02 PM, Suzy Rhapsody said:

He made a good point: They had a six-month relationship 20+ years ago.  It was over long ago.

Right. This is one of those instances where the relationship meant much more to her than it did to him (I think he was her first everything and she wasn't his first anything), and she wasn't going to be able to make it important to him. She did that for her, not for him. It was strange.

On 1/5/2021 at 10:10 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I think the show's mistake was bringing up the idea that Kate needed closure from Marc and then getting that closure in this episode.

Yes - this is what I meant by strange. We've seen the back story of their bad relationship, but the show hasn't really told us that Kate needed this kind of closure. To throw it in here like this seems sudden and unearned.

I think the fact that it resulted in an abortion makes that relationship a LOT more significant than a typical teenage 6 months relationship. To Kate, anyway, and since Marc had no idea about the pregnancy, her viewpoint is the one that's important to the story. She needed closure about the abortion, not necessarily Marc. In my view, of course.

[gonzosgirrl]

Not to diminish the gravity of a teenage abortion, but the way they lead up to this big reveal, including the 'dramatic' story of the showrunner approaching Chrissy with the idea and asking if she would be okay with it, etc, I thought it was going to be a much bigger deal. An angsty life-threatening miscarriage, or pregnancy as the result of rape, or a hidden pregnancy that lead to adoption, something.... more than what it was. I don't know if COVID changed the trajectory, but it all seemed rather anti-climactic to me.

[debraran]

3 hours ago, Lastwaltz said:

I think the fact that it resulted in an abortion makes that relationship a LOT more significant than a typical teenage 6 months relationship. To Kate, anyway, and since Marc had no idea about the pregnancy, her viewpoint is the one that's important to the story. She needed closure about the abortion, not necessarily Marc. In my view, of course.

But how did she get that? He never knew and she knows at 40, he would have been an awful father.  (if she didn't see it then) He was a creep to her and she never should have went back but again, I don't see the closure with the abortion. He is thinking I was a jerk but why are you blaming me for gaining 200 pounds? "If" he raped her and hit her, etc. I can see the closure. She let him belittle her which was sad, her self esteem so low, many of us have been there, but we can't control another person's actions really, just how we deal with it. I regret letting a guy do things, control my actions, that in 3 years I would have never done, but blame him for finding a codependent or "mark" as some put it. I don't know about that.

I agree with @gonzosgirrl too that it seemed they cut out parts or used it as filler.

Edited January 11, 2021 by debraran

[Snapdragon]

11 minutes ago, debraran said:

But how did she get that? He never knew and she knows at 40, he would have been an awful father.  (if she didn't see it then) He was a creep to her and she never should have went back but again, I don't see the closure with the abortion. He is thinking I was a jerk but why are you blaming me for gaining 200 pounds? "If" he raped her and hit her, etc. I can see the closure. But she let him belittle her which was sad, her self esteem, but we can't control another person's actions really, just how we deal with it.

I agree with @gonzosgirrl too that it seemed they cut out parts or used it as filler.

You know, the more I think about it the more I realize that the abortion part of the Marc story was completely unnecessary.  Kate's issues all seemed to stem from Marc being abusive, not the fact that she got an abortion.  If the whole abortion thing had been brought up when she and Toby were struggling to conceive, then that would have made sense but honestly, the way they did it, if you take the abortion out, nothing changes.  The fact that she doesn't even mention the abortion to Marc when they meet 30 years later shows how easily it lifts out.  They should have just had Kate tell Toby about Marc when she and Rebecca randomly found that picture of him last season.  Would have made a lot more sense and we could have avoided the whole "Kate never told Toby about her abortion despite being together for four years and having fertility issues" plothole.

[MoreCoffeePlease]

Will Beth ever have her own storyline this season?