S05.E03: Changes

[Ohiopirate02]

I have said before that I welcome the show fleshing out the character of Laurel to be more than Randall's bio-mom who conveniently does the day after giving birth to him, but I'm disappointed that the show had to introduce another man into this story.  Showing me another man who loves her doesn't actually reveal anything about the character.   Those scenes were all about the grandad.

[tribeca]

Madison seems like a whole different character.  She use to be kind of fun and quirky. That’s why I liked her for Kevin.  
   I don’t think Madison is going to survive childbirth.   Just my opinion Kevin is the child most like Rebecca.   Him losing his spouse at a young age and raising children alone would be so similar to Rebeccas story.   

    No teacher should be touching any student or petting their hair (?).  That was such a strange story to me.  Especially for Tess age group.   They pronouns was a little more believable.  Wonder if we will ever see this teacher.  

[sara416]

18 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I had a momentary fear that the grandfather/granddaughter had hooked her dead body when fishing.  That's what this show does to you.

Same! I wasn't sure it would be her body, but a body or body part for sure!

[Cementhead]

2 hours ago, Quiet1 said:

Still not liking Madison. I will need to skip her scenes until she and Kevin are over, if that ever happens. I hope she goes back to a couple of episodes a season. 

Since she's the real-life wife of Dan Fogelman; the guy who created this whole enchilada, I'm guessing she'll get to stick around as long as she wants to.  She being Caitlin Thompson, the actress, I mean.

And it seems as though they are kind of re-writing the character of Madison to fit the direction of the story line they have laid out so far.  I don't mind her at all but I still love the idea of Sophie as being Kevin's endgame because I like her and the actress who plays her. I thought those 2 had good chemistry together.  And I could feel the history they shared.  And I am a hopeless romantic, so I guess there's that.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Cementhead

[Quickbeam]

15 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

Since she's the real-life wife of Dan Fogelman; the guy who created this whole enchilada, I'm guessing she'll get to stick around as long as she wants to.  She being Caitlin Thompson, the actress, I mean.

And it seems as though they are kind of re-writing the character of Madison to fit the direction of the story line they have laid out so far.  I don't mind her at all but I still love the idea of Sophie as being Kevin's endgame because I like her and the actress who plays her. I thought those 2 had good chemistry together.  And I could feel the history they shared.  And I am a hopeless romantic, so I guess there's that.

Sophie stars on Virgin River now, probably too busy. 

[ThisisUs1Fan]

Loved the new characters (the little girl and her grandpa). She's so cute and did an excellent job!! I hope they develop them more, it's definitely refreshing to see them incorporate another race into this wonderful show! 

[Ohiopirate02]

37 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

Since she's the real-life wife of Dan Fogelman; the guy who created this whole enchilada, I'm guessing she'll get to stick around as long as she wants to.  She being Caitlin Thompson, the actress, I mean.

And it seems as though they are kind of re-writing the character of Madison to fit the direction of the story line they have laid out so far.  I don't mind her at all but I still love the idea of Sophie as being Kevin's endgame because I like her and the actress who plays her. I thought those 2 had good chemistry together.  And I could feel the history they shared.  And I am a hopeless romantic, so I guess there's that.

My romantic side is loving Kevin and Madison.  Their story so far is hitting some of my favorite romance tropes--marriage of convenience and forced proximity.   I also loved the honesty of both of them opening up about their addictions.  It's a good start to something that could be meaningful.   It also plays against Kevin's expectations about finding love.  He always thought he would instantly know "the one" and have the same storybook love like his parents and Randall and Beth.  For it to happen slowly to Kevin would be so much sweeter in my eyes.  I would love to see Kevin realize he loves Madison during the most mundane of circumstances.   

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, Quiet1 said:

How old is the video? Odd that it is coming up now. They haven't been in school for 8 months.

Tess said that the video was made last year. It isn't clear if it was just uploaded to the internet now, or if the school administration just found out about it now.

A few scattered thoughts:

- I always assumed that the expression "put your foot into it" (when referring to a great effort, and not putting your foot in your mouth) originated from the concept of someone using their foot to push something heavy, like a car. If you're pushing something, and you want to give 110% percent, you won't just push with your hands, you'll use one of your feet, too. (This interpretation may very well be insane.)

- I didn't find this episode to be overly woke. It seems very plausible to me that Tess would go through an in-your-face social activist phase as part of her teenage rebellion, and that she would have a non-binary friend. And we already knew that Madison deals with disordered eating, so it makes total sense for it to come up now that she's pregnant.

- It's always been clear that the actor who plays young Randall is super-talented, but he impressed me more than ever with the look in his eyes when that girl tried it with the lip gloss. That brought "deer in the headlights" to a new level!

- Do Hollywood showrunners think that every American has a 72" TV screen? Why on earth didn't they zoom in closer on the photo of Randall's mother? And don't even get me started on super-quick shots of handwritten notes that will only be legible if your TV is the size of a barn.

[Cementhead]

4 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

My romantic side is loving Kevin and Madison.  Their story so far is hitting some of my favorite romance tropes--marriage of convenience and forced proximity.   I also loved the honesty of both of them opening up about their addictions.  It's a good start to something that could be meaningful.   It also plays against Kevin's expectations about finding love.  He always thought he would instantly know "the one" and have the same storybook love like his parents and Randall and Beth.  For it to happen slowly to Kevin would be so much sweeter in my eyes.  I would love to see Kevin realize he loves Madison during the most mundane of circumstances.   

Such great points and a good way to look at things from another angle.  Kevin has had the most character growth and has become a favourite of mine so any time he gets an interesting, thoughtful story line, such as this one, it's all good.  As long as it isn't with Jennifer Morrison's character, glad we dodged that bullet. 

[sadie]

Are we not supposed to notice the kids are older now than when Jack died? These flashbacks to keep Milo employed are gonna have to stop at some point and frankly I don’t think the story needs them anymore. The Big 3’s childhood has been covered enough that we get why they have the issues they have, we don't need more and more examples that take me out of the story.

I’m really enjoying the Kevin Madison story. It’s probably the only thing keeping me onboard at this point. 

[debraran]

48 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

Such great points and a good way to look at things from another angle.  Kevin has had the most character growth and has become a favourite of mine so any time he gets an interesting, thoughtful story line, such as this one, it's all good.  As long as it isn't with Jennifer Morrison's character, glad we dodged that bullet. 

I agree, although probably not gone. Maybe back with family. Please not another no birth control pregnancy with her. 😮

Alexandra who plays Sophie said  "They’ve been off and on since they were children," she said. "I think that eventually it’s gonna work out for them, or at least I hope it does. I think they have a bond that’s kind of unbreakable."  I guess we will see. Sometimes I think I can figure out TIU, sometimes I don't. I know their outline can change but pretty set unless someone can't do a scene. If Kevin just went to see Sophie and they talked or saw movie I'd say it's over. But the whole ring thing, I think the show does nothing without a reason. He went to gravesite to ask her permission and blessing to have another chance. Sophie never wore the ring with her "finance" but is seen looking for it and leaving it in the box wistfully. I would bet 5.00 Kevin puts that on her finger before the show ends. ; )

Two more long seasons to see who else drops out of the sky or comes back from the dead or presumed dead or gets sick or dies or has an abortion or PTSD. Hmmm sounds very depressing. I hope they have more humor, kids having funny and interesting incidents and please no more new characters. Keep us smiling to offset the darker moments.

[bichonblitz]

Man, Justin Hartley is not just another pretty face (and body). He can act!! He did a great job this episode. 

[slasherboy]

20 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Those good for nothing teenagers out here turning down fresh pancakes?

Disrespectful.

Because they weren't made with cage-free eggs! Jeeze Louise! 

A way to keep from going to all that trouble (and expense) of preparing a good meal, to the point of putting your foot in it 😉 would be to ask, "Who wants pancakes?" and proceed accordingly.

It's long been a major source of irritation with me on TV shows when there is a perfectly good meal on the table and kids, usually, are dismissive and leave all that food just sitting there, wasted. That wouldn't happen but a couple of times if I was to cook.

20 hours ago, bybrandy said:

I'm okay with the Vietnamese grandfather knowing somethign about Randall's mom, I guess, but if he's also somehow connected to um.... what's Jack's brother's name????,,,,, I'm going to be sort of put out...

And I was sort of okay with this being Jack's brother being this kid's other grandfather until.... the moment we saw Randall's mom.   Quite frankly, I think I'd still prefer this to be a connection to Jack's brother... I just can't handle it being both, so....

 

I'm so out of the loop and disconnected when it comes to this storyline. I don't know who Laurel is and I really don't know who the grandfather and the little girl. I'm figuring out based on these posts.

Regarding the hair touching:   I kind of had a reverse situation when I was a child. I'm white and I had very long, very thick hair. In elementary school, a black classmate sat behind me and another black classmate sat next to her. They would put their desks close to each other and at the same time, they would play with my hair for a long time. They never asked if they could and I didn't stop them because it felt incredible. More than one they said, "Your hair feels so different." I had no idea about texture.

I've had a lifelong phobia about hair and you couldn't pay me to touch someone's hair, no matter whose head it was on.

I like Toby. And I absolutely prefer Kate when she is laughing. I guess Toby's depression and strict physical fitness routine have been put on hold?

[KaveDweller]

6 hours ago, LeisureTime said:

I'm starting to wonder how much longer we have with the Tween Big 3. As they get older, it's starting to stretch believability that they could turn into the Teen Big 3, especially the Kate actress. Though, it was a nice touch to already have the Buffy poster in her room.

There are only two more seasons, so I figure they will just make it work with the actors. It is kind of a stretch, but they knew that would be a risk with having so many kid actors. But if they want to keep showing Jack, they need younger versions of the kids.

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Since the girls are attending school remotely and skip their commute, Beth could easily have an extra half hour or more in the morning if she still gets up at the same time she used to.

Are people still getting up at the same time they used to? I feel like one good thing I actually like about doing everything remote is I get extra sleep in the time I used to drive to work.

[Bulldog]

Since we know Tess grows up to become a social worker, perhaps we'll see her make a big mistake in dealing with a foster child and said child will make and post a screw you video about their social worker.  Oh, who am I kidding?  There is no way this show would allow the progeny of the great all-knowing Randall Pearson to be shown in such a harsh light. 

So, Kate buys small packs of diapers at a time so as not to "hoard" them? Wouldn't that necessitate making multiple trips to the store each week (and we know they are not having them delivered based on their conversation)?  Doesn't seem very "woke" when people are being encouraged to limit trips to supermarkets, etc.   

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, tribeca said:

No teacher should be touching any student or petting their hair (?).  That was such a strange story to me.  Especially for Tess age group.   They pronouns was a little more believable.  Wonder if we will ever see this teacher.  

It was very believable to me. My mom had to have a chat with a similarly situated teacher when I was about Tess’ age. No I wouldn’t have made a video about said teacher, I just told my Mom about it and she handled it. 
 

I didn’t think Tess’ punishment was inappropriate. She knew how she handled her anger wasn’t the best method and because she’s a teen with poor impulse control she did it anyway. A phone is a PRIVILEGE, (especially since she won’t be going anywhere alone it’s not a safety issue) and 6 weeks is long enough she will get the message.  Additionally yes the internet has a LONG ASS MEMORY, and she needs to know that. 

Of course that woman was wrong and inappropriate but we have to learn we can’t just lash out, even when our boundaries are violated. Especially as black women, we won’t fare well in the world that way. There are ways to get the point across without making the situation about our reaction. (Kudos up thread to the poster who said that now the issue is Tess’ video and not the teacher’s actions. )

[marceline]

Thoughts...

• I've always wanted to kiss someone like you." That was a gut punch. As a black woman who grew up in a white suburb it's true. Fetishization is a real thing.
• "Put my/your foot in it - "screwed up" "Put my/your foot up in X" = "kicked its ass" The "up" is the difference. That's my understanding and all I intend to contribute to the debate. 🙂
• Madison's discussion of what it was like to be pregnant with an eating disorder FLOORED me. I'd completely forgotten about her bulimia and I'm glad the show brought it up again. It was a good reminder that so many of us have hidden struggles. She's not just pregnant, she's pregnant with twins. That said, I agree with whoever above said that Madison feels like a completely different character now.
• The whole Laurel thing means nothing to me but that food that Vietnamese grandad was cooking definitely looked good. Between that and Beth's pancakes the food on this show looks good on camera. Kudos to whoever is in charge of that.
• Kate/Toby's diaper debate was stupid. When each of my nieces were born, I bought all the diapers I could so their parents could stock up. That wasn't "hoarding." It was reality. Especially because the youngest was a preemie so I had to go to baby stores in order to buy them.
• Rebecca/Mandy's messing up putting the funyuns on the table made me smile. It felt like a possible outtake that got left in and I 'm a sucker for those.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

16 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Are people still getting up at the same time they used to? I feel like one good thing I actually like about doing everything remote is I get extra sleep in the time I used to drive to work.

I assume the girls are sleeping later, but Beth, and, especially Randall, seem like the kind of people who stick to a schedule. And I could see Beth taking advantage of a negative (school at home) and turning it into a positive (time to make a hot breakfast.)

Edited November 12, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Sake614]

7 hours ago, LeisureTime said:

Jack and Kevin were so sweet, and I'm trying to decide if the flashbacks to Teen Jack with his dad were supposed to be like "here's one of the few good memories Jack has of time with his dad" or if it was an "I'm going to do it better" sort of thing.

I believe the latter. His father was pushing him, saying ‘I can take some of the weight off’ like he was being weak for not having the strength to lift it. At least that’s how I took it. And adult Jack was determined that Kevin not hurt himself by lifting too much, too soon.

re random horse girl from last season, she’s the daughter of Madison’s OB, who is the son of Gerald McRaney’s character, who delivered the Big 3. So while she’s pointless now, we know she’ll tie into the story at some point.

[Ohmo]

22 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Tess has every right to be upset that her teacher keeps touching her hair and misgendering her friend, and the school really needs to talk to their staff about about their crappy, unprofessional behavior towards their students, and she should have told her parents, but six weeks grounding with no phone seems a bit much. I mean, maybe I am just jaded to the antics of teens, but that video was pretty tame all things considered. It wouldn't even be flagged for content on most social media platforms. I hope we find out that Beth and Randall talk to the school though, if teachers are being so disrespectful towards their students someone really needs to have a talk about that. 

My prevailing thought about touching Tess's hair was that teachers are advised to not touch a child in most cases---hair or otherwise---so that there's not even the appearance of anything that's potentially inappropriate.  In a current classroom, a teacher would know to use "they." How students identify is something that middle school and high school teachers in a public school would definitely know about.

I think Tess's punishment had more to do with this being Randall and Beth's first taste of seeing how their daughters are changing.  Deja's older and was already near her teenage years when she came to live with Beth and Randall.  Plus, they haven't raised Deja's since birth,  In the flashback, Rebecca was trying so hard to be the "cool" mom.  Randall and Beth weren't trying to be the "cool" parents, but it was one of the first times that they're really been confronted with the fact that their oldest child is really growing up.  I think Tess's punishment was a reaction to that reality, and not necessarily what Tess did, although I did appreciate Tess being reminded not to swear at an adult.

I like Madison and Kevin, and I now wonder if Madison is dead in the flash forwards, as people have theorized that Kate night be.  From the little that I know about bulimia, it's a lifelong condition like alcoholism or addiction.

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, KaveDweller said:

Are people still getting up at the same time they used to? I feel like one good thing I actually like about doing everything remote is I get extra sleep in the time I used to drive to work.

I set my alarm for a half hour later on the days I work from home, but I don't actually get up for another half hour after that at least (leaving me enough time to take a shower and maybe comb my hair before I sit down at my desk; some days I even manage to make some tea first).

8 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I like Madison and Kevin, and I now wonder if Madison is dead in the flash forwards, as people have theorized that Kate night be.  From the little that I know about bulimia, it's a lifelong condition like alcoholism or addiction.

Bulimia can cause heart arrhythmias and other potentially fatal conditions, too.

1 hour ago, slasherboy said:

I'm so out of the loop and disconnected when it comes to this storyline. I don't know who Laurel is and I really don't know who the grandfather and the little girl. I'm figuring out based on these posts.

Laurel is Randall's presumed-dead-but-maybe-actually-survived birth mother. We don't know who the grandfather/granddaughter are, yet. (Or when they are, for that matter.)

[Boo Boo]

3 hours ago, sadie said:

Are we not supposed to notice the kids are older now than when Jack died? These flashbacks to keep Milo employed are gonna have to stop at some point and frankly I don’t think the story needs them anymore. The Big 3’s childhood has been covered enough that we get why they have the issues they have, we don't need more and more examples that take me out of the story.

I’m really enjoying the Kevin Madison story. It’s probably the only thing keeping me onboard at this point. 

I am so fucking sick of Jack/Milo.  I can't stand the voice, I can't stand the looks he gives. 

[evansmom10]

23 hours ago, Empress1 said:

 

It’s happened to me many times - well, people try but I don’t allow them to do so. I’ve swatted away and ducked to avoid many a hand. At Tess’s age I wasn’t self-possessed enough to take a stand. (I was also straightening my hair at that age - I wear my natural curls now and have for over 10 years - but white people still tried to touch it without asking because they didn’t understand how it was straight.) I am 100% on her side in terms of her grievances - we are not animals, do not pet us, and misgendering her non-binary friend isn’t cool. But I agreed with Randall and Beth that that wasn’t the best way to make their point (though it was very Gen Z).

 

Yes, anyone on here who doesn't think it's a big deal has never had it done. DO NOT TOUCH US, we are not your "possessions" ANYMORE. It feels as if b/c they once had agency over Black bodies, they can still do whatever they damn well please when it comes to us. You nailed it, like an animal. 

[Boo Boo]

The birth mom story was, well, stupid.  And come on, what pregnant woman is going to be worried about bickering but have zero concerns that adoptive mom is morbidly obese.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Boo Boo

[Ohmo]

The problem I have with the grandfather storyline is that it combines the Laurel storyline with reminders of Jack's Vietnam storyline, neither of which I want to go over again.

I agree that we should keep the Big 3 actors who play the kids in college and when Kevin has married Sophie but no longer go any younger than that.  Sorry Milo, you've been voted off the island.  There's much more recent and future content that interests me instead.

I can sympathize with Tess in this regard. As someone with a disability, sometimes you get tired of everything being a THING.  You just want to handle the situation and be done with it. Involving Randall and Beth would have made it a THING territory, and Tess's annoyance that the teacher didn't just stop touching hair probably got the better of her and led to her participation in the video,

Edited November 12, 2020 by Ohmo

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, Bulldog said:

 

So, Kate buys small packs of diapers at a time so as not to "hoard" them? Wouldn't that necessitate making multiple trips to the store each week (and we know they are not having them delivered based on their conversation)?  Doesn't seem very "woke" when people are being encouraged to limit trips to supermarkets, etc.   

I didn't understand that plot point at all.  It isn't like these two are brand new parents and don't get how many diapers a baby needs.  They are seriously inconveniencing themselves on a regular basis for nonsense reasons.

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, sadie said:

Are we not supposed to notice the kids are older now than when Jack died? These flashbacks to keep Milo employed are gonna have to stop at some point and frankly I don’t think the story needs them anymore. The Big 3’s childhood has been covered enough that we get why they have the issues they have, we don't need more and more examples that take me out of the story.

They aren't. They were 17 when Jack died, and 13 in this episode's flashback. The first time we saw the teen actors it was in a flashback when the Big Three were 16, so the kid actors can be used this season and the next as 13 and 14-year-olds without messing up the continuity.

[redpencil]

The hair touching reminds me of my cousin. She has red hair, and when she was young (maybe 3-4?) her family lived in South Korea for a little while. People would try to touch her hair all the time. At the grocery store, wherever. She HATED it, and I think my aunt started to shut it down really quick after a few times. Very inappropriate in any circumstance.

I didn't realize who that was in the photo at the end until I came here. I could see it okay enough, but we just have not seen Laurel enough that I remember what she looks like yet. It's interesting that the little girl doesn't seem to know who she is. Makes me think maybe she's not related (even if she had died before she could remember, you'd think she would know if it was her grandmother). But then if she's not related, where is this going?

Edited November 13, 2020 by redpencil

[CrystalBlue]

On 11/10/2020 at 7:16 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

When she said "I wonder what it would be like to kiss someone like you" I thought what? A nerd? Then I was like ooooohhhhh.

That's what I thought too!  The racial difference completely went over my pointy little head.  I thought the young lady was taken with Randall because she thinks he's cute and appreciates his intellectual side, that he had a routine and is a bookworm, and had never kissed an egghead (now known as a nerd) before.  I found out differently by coming here and reading the comments!

[Racj82]

15 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I don't have enough mental stamina to follow the new grandfather/grand daughter storyline to try to figure out what that's all about. Please, writers, enough with the twists and turns of Randall's life. I can stay on board with Kevin and his babies mama drama, Rebecca and her dementia, even the Mc Bickersons Kate and Toby because all of that is real life stuff. Randall's story has always been so far fetched. It looks like it's going to continue to be this season as well. 

People keep calling it Randall's story. His story isn't very far fetched. His parents lived a whole life he never got a chance to learn about and we are seeing it for ourselves. This is their story, not his. It's no different than the many things we've learn about Jack past the service level of him being a great dad. 

I don't even think the plotlines are far fetched per se. It's just that the show keeps throwing out hidden information as a tease and it can all just be too much after a while. 

It's almost like LOST was for me. It's not that the mysteries aren't intriguing or don't add to the show, but it's ultimately not why I'm here so I don't dwell on it too much. It unfolds as it unfolds. I'm here because I enjoy spending time with these characters. I get upset, I smile, it makes me think. That's what I focus on.

[CrystalBlue]

I agree with Beth and Randall about the Tess & Friend video.  Six weeks seems a little long, but I liked Randall shutting down more cursing from Tess with the threat of three more!  As for the hair touching, that is totally inappropriate behavior for a teacher or anyone including fellow students at a school.  Tess should have reported it to Beth and/or Randall right away and let them deal with it.  The video was wrong and could cause problems later.

I agree with Tess about the cage-free eggs, but she needs to can the snark to her mother and ask nicely if she'll support her in the cage-free eggs movement.  Yes they cost a little more but kids make food requests all the time even tough they don't do the grocery shopping.

At least I've learned about the saying of putting your foot in with regards to cooking.

I loved the Kevin Madison discussion.

Kate and Toby's baby mama will be interesting.

Now we have two more characters, Vietnamese grandfather and granddaughter, and a new storyline with Laurel, dead or alive, when and where?  Yikes.

[PRgal]

If Tess wants cage-free eggs, I certainly hope the yogurt she ate was either plant based or from pasture-raised cows!  

[alexvillage]

17 hours ago, Quiet1 said:

How old is the video? Odd that it is coming up now. They haven't been in school for 8 months.

I was reading the thread for this reason. I posted comments yesterday before I watched the episode and I now feel like it wan't such a big deal after all. The video created a conflict with the parent's but we didn't hear anything about the school's reaction, did we? I still think it was  an accurate depiction of today's teenagers. Sometimes over the top, learning and asserting themselves. And for a black teen, things are much more intense. Much better than the old formula of rebellious teen that throws parties and drinks.

I also didn't think that the "fight" between Toby and Kate in front of the mother of the possible adopted kid was a big deal. I think it showed that they are just regular people that fight sometimes, and they apologized to each other. I saw this as a positive sign, even if not very well written. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

20 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Same. There's a difference between hoarding and having enough to last you more than a few days at a time.

Maybe she buys a roll of toilet paper every other day.

[gonzosgirrl]

When Tess is arguing with her parents before being sent to her room, she said she was 'tired of being the prissy little girl you raised in the straight, white suburbs, surrounded by straight, white people'. I was thinking this morning about the flash forward when we see Randall going to Tess's work to tell her "it's time go see her" ('her' turns out to be Rebecca). It gave me the impression that there was some kind of reason that Tess hadn't seen her grandmother for a while. I wonder if there is a family rift on the horizon over race issues.

[Ohiopirate02]

59 minutes ago, PRgal said:

If Tess wants cage-free eggs, I certainly hope the yogurt she ate was either plant based or from pasture-raised cows!  

I had the same thought.  I then realized that Tess complaining to Beth about Beth not using cage-free eggs while potentially eating a non-ethically sourced yogurt is the perfect distillation of a young person starting to really care about a cause.  They are hyper-focused on one issue while not fully comprehending the complexity of the situation.  It can read like hypocrisy but only because teens are still learning nuance.  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

22 hours ago, ams1001 said:

22 hours ago, LeisureTime said:

Jack and Kevin were so sweet, and I'm trying to decide if the flashbacks to Teen Jack with his dad were supposed to be like "here's one of the few good memories Jack has of time with his dad" or if it was an "I'm going to do it better" sort of thing.

I feel like it's a mix of both. Something he shared with his dad alone, but also the first indicator of his tendency toward addictive behavior (both in exercising excessively in the first place and also hiding it from his parents).

I believe the poster was asking if working out with his normally abusive father was a good memory for Jack and I would say "yes", probably one of very few good memories of his childhood, which he was hoping to replicate with Kevin, who then became somewhat excessive about it. (I thought at first he might be going to wind up pinned alone in the garage in the middle of the night under some excessive weight, but I guess he wasn't reckless in his behavior.)

Jack must have been astonished at Kevin's progress!  (Also, since Kevin and Randall were still sharing a bedroom then, Randall must have been a very heavy sleeper not to notice Kevin sneaking in and out, unless he did it shortly before normal wake-up time.)

21 hours ago, Quiet1 said:

How old is the video? Odd that it is coming up now. They haven't been in school for 8 months.

They said it was from last school year (or Tess would probably be in trouble for getting together with a friend.)  Her hair was short then, and she now has moderately long hair.  I guess the school administration somehow just became aware of it.

Edited November 12, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Neurochick]

17 hours ago, himela said:

2. I don't like Madisson AT ALL. I mean, I'm really close to hating her, more when I found out she is the wife of the writer. She is a cold person and I don't see why Kevin would want to sacrifice himself with her. She has nothing that makes her special, nothing that you can like her for. I see an effort from the writers to make her and Kevin work but all I'm thinking is, NO KEVIN, DONT DO IT, RUN AWAY! They can be co-parents for the kids but not a couple. How can you decide to raise kids with someone you don't even know? I mean, even the best couples make huge mistakes raising their kids, imagine these two who are literally strangers.

I agree with this totally.  

I can't stand this whole storyline because there are so many women who think shit like this happens often in real life.  You get pregnant with a hot guy, and he instantly falls for you and asks you to marry him.  In real life said hot guy would probably ask you to have an abortion and leave you flat.  No fairy tale.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I don't have a problem with "they" at all.  Here's why:  I work in a university.  At one time my job was processing Visas for students from China.  I could not tell by the name if the student was a male or female.  After making too many mistakes regarding gender, I started saying "they," made my life easier.  

And that is why I think we need a gender-neutral honorific like "Mx." When writing work emails to people in foreign countries, it is a waste of time to start Google searching names to deduce the gender of the email recipient, and often there is no definitive answer. It is insulting, or at least annoying to misgender the recipient, so if not on a first name basis, what is one to do? Default to Mr. when not sure? 

In the US, girls are being given gender-neutral names or formerly traditional boys names fairly frequently (Drew, Elliott, Hayden, Taylor). Since we don't have a non-gendered honorific, this is a good example of why a person including preferred pronouns in their email signature can be very useful.

[sigmaforce86]

I liked this episode a bit better than the premier.  They're settling in to the seasons story lines.

I think Randall and Beth did pretty well with Tess, I wish they had talked to her more, maybe given her books to read or people to research and talked to her about why it's different to "act" than to "react".  Her reacting and lashing out to the incidents at school was pretty age appropriate and she's not wrong but like anything at her age she needs guidance how to channel everything she's learning and experiencing into actions that can make a change.   Also teachers don't touch a kids hair; or any other part of them unless you're actively pulling them away from danger like stepping in front of a speeding car....seriously they may be kids but they're not your cute pets (and they're not stupid).

I liked the Madison and Kevin interactions and I'm OK with Madison changing - I think her normal bubbly over the top personality was a bit of a put on to cope with her problems and pregnancy hormones and her disorder rearing up have sort of overshadowed that and brought her a bit more down to earth.  That plus navigating a relationship with Kevin (also why do we forget that Justin can truly act until they give him one of those monologues and he crushes it every time like the last one by Dad's tree?  This guy needs more credit than he gets).  Whether they have a happy ending as a couple or whether they should even be a long term couple is a different question though - but no way it's going to be that easy.

The only story that I'm still on the fence about is Randall's Mom........It felt a little too soap opera when the EMT's realized she was alive and with the reveals this week, her picture on Grandpa's boat and the assumption that she's still alive it still feels the least realistic and the most soap opera-ish of all the plots.  Jack's brother was one thing but it made sense as the story played out and I hope they have a good explanation for Randall's Mom because it's really stretching believability so far.

[Empress1]

14 hours ago, slasherboy said:

I guess Toby's depression and strict physical fitness routine have been put on hold?

Gyms would have been closed at this point. (My gym has reopened but I’m not going; I run and bike outdoors and do strength training and yoga at home via YouTube and live-streamed classes.) Toby could be working out outdoors but the drama behind his workouts (him doing it in secret and the woman from CrossFit who had a thing for him) is over so I see why they’re not showing it - they haven’t showed it for a while. I’m also assuming Toby is managing his depression at this point so it doesn’t need to be a focus. He’s not trying to find an anti-depressant that he likes, or a new therapist. (Anti-depressant prescriptions have skyrocketed in 2020 so he’s far from alone!)

[MissLucas]

On 11/12/2020 at 7:29 AM, redpencil said:

The hair touching reminds me of my cousin. She has red hair, and when she was young (maybe 3-4?) her family lived in South Korea for a little while. People would try to touch her hair all the time. At the grocery store, wherever. She HATED it, and I think my aunt started to shut it down really quick after a few times. Very inappropriate in any circumstance.

There's definitely a cultural difference at play. My nephews and nieces had almost white blonde curls as kids and on their way to school they had to pass a cable-car station where busloads full of Chinese tourists were waiting for their turn. There was regularly lots of excitement, picture taking and touching. A Chinese friend of mine explained to me that some of these people had never seen (IRL) nor touched blonde hair before and that they also have a different concept of personal space. None of this applies of course to Tess and her teacher. Just a reminder that hair touching does not necessarily mean disrespect. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by MissLucas

[bybrandy]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

And that is why I think we need a gender-neutral honorific like "Mx." When writing work emails to people in foreign countries, it is a waste of time to start Google searching names to deduce the gender of the email recipient, and often there is no definitive answer. It is insulting, or at least annoying to misgender the recipient, so if not on a first name basis, what is one to do? Default to Mr. when not sure? 

In the US, girls are being given gender-neutral names or formerly traditional boys names fairly frequently (Drew, Elliott, Hayden, Taylor). Since we don't have a non-gendered honorific, this is a good example of why a person including preferred pronouns in their email signature can be very useful.

Honestly, I'd rather we just dropped Mr., Ms., and Mrs. altogether.   I go by Brandy but my name is Brandon (I always say my parents wanted a boy as a joke and only recently figured out everybody now believes that about them.  Ooops.  Not true.  I'd have been named Brett if I was a boy) but all my ID is Brandon and so when I sign up for things where use say a credit card it is Brandon so all my memberships and tickets and things say Mr. Blackshear.   Every single one.  And like, if I didn't write down Ms. Mrs. Mr... why not just leave that bit blank?  Is it important that my address line gender me?  Why?  Why not just address Brandon...  and learn my gender when I turn up?   

I mean I am all for putting my pronouns at the top of my twitter feed/at bottom of emails because pronouns are SUPER useful.  But I'm not sure titles are wildly necessary outsid of the professional world.  Certainly the art museum doesn't really need my title.  

[ItCouldBeWorse]

22 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

Honestly, I'd rather we just dropped Mr., Ms., and Mrs. altogether.   I go by Brandy but my name is Brandon (I always say my parents wanted a boy as a joke and only recently figured out everybody now believes that about them.  Ooops.  Not true.  I'd have been named Brett if I was a boy) but all my ID is Brandon and so when I sign up for things where use say a credit card it is Brandon so all my memberships and tickets and things say Mr. Blackshear.   Every single one.  And like, if I didn't write down Ms. Mrs. Mr... why not just leave that bit blank?  Is it important that my address line gender me?  Why?  Why not just address Brandon...  and learn my gender when I turn up?   

I mean I am all for putting my pronouns at the top of my twitter feed/at bottom of emails because pronouns are SUPER useful.  But I'm not sure titles are wildly necessary outsid of the professional world.  Certainly the art museum doesn't really need my title.  

Yes, you are a perfect example of what I am talking about!

However, I am working in one of the professions, so titles are not optional.

2 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I liked the Madison and Kevin interactions and I'm OK with Madison changing - I think her normal bubbly over the top personality was a bit of a put on to cope with her problems and pregnancy hormones and her disorder rearing up have sort of overshadowed that and brought her a bit more down to earth.

Exactly.  She might very well have decided never to become pregnant because she knew it would raise difficult issues for her, but here she is, it's the middle of a pandemic, and it's twins!  It wouldn't make sense for her to be bubbly and carefree.

[PRgal]

55 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

Honestly, I'd rather we just dropped Mr., Ms., and Mrs. altogether.   I go by Brandy but my name is Brandon (I always say my parents wanted a boy as a joke and only recently figured out everybody now believes that about them.  Ooops.  Not true.  I'd have been named Brett if I was a boy) but all my ID is Brandon and so when I sign up for things where use say a credit card it is Brandon so all my memberships and tickets and things say Mr. Blackshear.   Every single one.  And like, if I didn't write down Ms. Mrs. Mr... why not just leave that bit blank?  Is it important that my address line gender me?  Why?  Why not just address Brandon...  and learn my gender when I turn up?   

I mean I am all for putting my pronouns at the top of my twitter feed/at bottom of emails because pronouns are SUPER useful.  But I'm not sure titles are wildly necessary outsid of the professional world.  Certainly the art museum doesn't really need my title.  

There are some of us who don’t want honourifics dropped.  I hate it when parents introduce me to their kids as “Cynthia.”  As I’m an adult, I’m more comfortable with them calling me Ms. or Mrs.  I don’t even want Auntie, which is common my culture.  If you’re my BFF, fine, but if you’re my somewhat acquaintance’s brother who I never even gave the time of day as a kid, then NO!  I like being addressed as “ma’am” as well - it’s just respect.  So yeah, Mx. is definitely a good idea. 

Of course, there are cultural issues (like the Chinese tourists and blonde hair mentioned above).  And also, as a city councillor, Randall has more power and connections than the average parent to get this teacher disciplined.  The principal at my elementary school was crappy, but she couldn’t be fired because her husband was on the board.  

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

And that is why I think we need a gender-neutral honorific like "Mx." When writing work emails to people in foreign countries, it is a waste of time to start Google searching names to deduce the gender of the email recipient, and often there is no definitive answer. It is insulting, or at least annoying to misgender the recipient, so if not on a first name basis, what is one to do? Default to Mr. when not sure? 

It's perfectly acceptable to address letters/emails with "Dear FirstName LastName" if you're not 100% sure of the correct titles and/or honorifics.

[Mrs Shibbles]

I wonder if the Vietnamese grandfather or his family will be somehow connected to Jack or Nicky from the war, in addition to a connection to Laurel. 

[himela]

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Exactly.  She might very well have decided never to become pregnant because she knew it would raise difficult issues for her, but here she is, it's the middle of a pandemic, and it's twins!  It wouldn't make sense for her to be bubbly and carefree.

I think in the first season she had said she couldn't have kids.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

15 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

It's perfectly acceptable to address letters/emails with "Dear FirstName LastName" if you're not 100% sure of the correct titles and/or honorifics.

I suppose, but in a law office, it's awkward if you are responding to an email in which they use your (correct) title.  "Dear Attorney XXX" sounds stilted, and will not work if you are addressing a non-attorney.

In the old days when people sent typed business letters to unknown correspondents with neutral or foreign names, they likely assumed the latter were male and the recipient often lived with the error (it might have even been helpful professionally when dealing with old-fashioned contacts who were never going to meet in person or speak on the phone to allow that misapprehension.) 

Nowadays, most people would want to get it right. It's not an insurmountable problem, but the solution is simple (if we could just get everyone to agree to it!) 

14 minutes ago, himela said:

I think in the first season she had said she couldn't have kids.

I don't recall that, but it would explain why she and Kevin were presumably careless with birth control (but not disease prevention.)

[Tango64]

I've watched every episode and just read all four pages here, yet I don't know who Lauren is or who the woman in the picture is. Sometimes it feels like my brain just says, "No. That's enough. Too much to decipher here. Just watch these people stress over several decades and go to bed."