S04.E18: Strangers: Part Two

[gonzosgirrl]

I was so hoping that the birthday party would go by with no announcement from Rebecca, and then as Randall is squirming and questioning if/why she changed her mind about the trial, she just batted her eyes and said 'Huh, what? I don't know what you're talking about."  Heh.

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, nilyank said:

 

And with all the ugly, shitty things said between the brothers, this was just another way to put down the one thing that Kevin has really worked hard for and he is still be insulted for going after that dream. Why are Kevin's dreams any less deserving than that of his siblings.

Randall also became a Wall Street Bro.  Yes he was highly successful as shown by his expensive home and other trappings.  He has swerved in the last year to public service, but Wall Street Bro is not any different than an actor in the grand scheme of things.  It's not like he became a scientist developing cures for cancer, or a doctor working in underprivileged neighborhoods, etc, etc. 

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

You're a male, Mommalib?

Your examples show us that there are actually leading black male characters who are good as well as the bad ones, just as there are leading white male characters from Andy Taylor to Hannibal Lector.  I can remember a time when TV seemed afraid to show leading black characters in any light other than the perfect, "Magical Negro" stereotype and that can become patronizing and limiting.  It can't be all, "In the Heat of the Night,"  -- my father's favorite show.

  I think Randall is a fascinating character and although all his faults have been blazing this year, the writers have shown that he has started therapy and we can expect to see rewards from that next year.  I think Sterling K. Brown  is so lucky to have such a nuanced character to play.  When he was on the phone begging Rebecca to do the trial I was marveling at the pain in the actor's  face even as I was screaming, "No," at the character.

Yes i'm a black male to be specific. And yes there has been progress but things are still moving kinda slow and I still see diversity issues, biases, stereotypes etc. But I agree that Randall is a delicious character and I'm sure Sterling K is pleased but I just wonder what made them make such a sharp turn with the character since season 1. And then there are the people that seem like they been waiting to hate on Randall for  a while now and they're in their judgmental glory.

Edited March 25, 2020 by mommalib

[sasha206]

Am I the only one that thought the co-worker (Zack?) to Kate's daughter was creepy AF?  Harassing her for a date and then harassing her to name the one-night stand?

[preeya]

17 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Randall needs to die next season. Preferably painfully. There is really no redemption there. He is a toxic narcissist through and through.

THIS ↑

My thoughts exactly.

[justmythoughts]

Well... it was a punch to  the stomach...

- I love Kevin, as the oldest sibling myself, the one with no problems and so on... but I also love Randall,  although he blackmailing his mom was such a low move... I see their arguing as bad timing, but it bothered me deeply he said things to Kevin about someone else's feelings... about Jack who is not here anymore to reassure to Kevin he was not ashamed of him. again, as the oldest of 3, I know my life would have been much easier without my sisters, it's a fact.  Though, much sadder many times. Both Kevin and Randall were so wrong... but I guess Kevin can bounce back, can explain how he felt for Randall, because I am sure a part of Randall also thinks his life would be much easier without Kevin. Both will realize their lives were richer and happier,  though tougher because of each other. But Jack cannot come back to tell Kevin he was proud of him and he would be now as well.

- Loved Kevin's twins.  We all knew it would be Maddison's. So let's get out of who is the mother and move on to who is the wife. In the future the kids seem to me around 10/11 years old.  Kevin is still hot as hell but I wish he trimed his beard, made him look much older.

- I got the impression Kate is dead in the future. Randall and Kevin seemed at odds... I hope not, hope they solve their issues and rely on each other... 

- Kate and Toby and their secret with baby Jack... so cute! No one cares and Toby was so down cause he wanted people to ask! They adopt a lovely girl! Baby Jack has a sister!! Amazing!!

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by justmythoughts
Grammar

[Alice Mudgarden]

I think, in a bubble of just this fight, Randall and Kevin would be pretty equal on the "heinous remark" meter. Where Randall comes off worse is when you look at the sum of the parts of what we've seen in the show.

A few people mentioned Kevin before his growth and maturing, and I personally view his behavior then as a result of the favoritism Randall clearly got. I don't necessarily think Kevin would just resent Randall or would have been particularly attention-seeking and bratty when they were kids without that occurring. For me, it's important to recognize what they *both* went through, how *both* of their lives were affected by Randall's adoption and the subsequent actions and moments related to that.

I'm having trouble trying to get it out succinctly (too verbose for my own good), but I think that, because of Randall's set of issues connected to it, it naturally gets understood and cared about. Rightfully, mind you; not trying to argue what he had to adjust to isn't important whatsoever. Because Kevin's set of issues isn't generally seen as "heavy" as Randall's, it gets forgotten about and ignored; weirdly appropriate, considering what those issues are.

What Randall isn't seeing are all the times Kevin took it on the chin with regards to his part in the family. His *own* issues prevent him from seeing beyond the surface-y success Kevin has, while at the same time passing judgment on it. We've seen him pass judgment on Kevin with no prompting action from Kevin (ex: his snide behavior regarding Kevin's acting workshop) and we've seen him outright dismiss Kevin's perspective and feelings when Kevin was simply trying to be open in order to better himself (like the family therapy session in rehab), with what feels like little acknowledgement for Kevin's support. That goes for when he was young (helping Randall with forging Rebecca's signature on a school note, helping Randall win Beth over) and now (bolting on opening night of his play to help Randall in his breakdown). When you put it all together, it starts becoming more "Kevin said something harsh in a heated moment; Randall was an arrogant jerk who was far too cruel, especially as the wrong party".

For me, the most compelling part was their reads on each other and the situation. Randall was way off base, while Kevin was spot on. That jives with who they are; Randall is intellectually intelligent but socially tone deaf, Kevin isn't as book smart as Randall, but is far more socially adept. And Randall doesn't see that, because he believes his academic intelligence gives him the ability to understand anything, failing to realize that it doesn't work that way at all. Kevin's dumber than him, so Kevin's read on him *can't* be right.

It's all the history and layers that I think wind up making Randall seem way worse overall.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Alice Mudgarden

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, mommalib said:

The writers had a chance to do that with Randall and it seems they started out that way but took a turn somewhere.

This Is Us is a three-act play; we're at the end of Act II.  At the point where Randall has had two -- that's more than one!-- 50-minute hours of therapy, for a lifelong anxiety disorder that is killing him. With Randall, I think the show is following the traditional three-act romantic dramedy structure described as "boy meets girl/boy loses girl/boy gets girl." 

We're the girl. Boy lost us when he started hurting or overwhelming everyone instead of listening to anyone, starting with himself. His defense mechanisms are that brutal, because what they protect feels so helpless. And Randall felt something begin to happen in therapy -- just enough so that when he lay down that night, his inner alarm gave him 30 seconds to switch back from Aware to Oblivious before all hell broke loose. (By the way, Show: nice, the "alarm set" from the digital Greek chorus in the opener as Beth and Randall headed to California, and we went to credits...)

But I don't doubt that Dr. Leigh will become another latter-day Dr. K. She'll be the one who persuades him to bring home the foundling, and trust this life where he was both abandoned and beloved.

Boy gets world. 

[greekmom]

The timeline is a bit confusing.  The point when we see Rebecca on her "death bed" is approximately 10 years in the future as Kevin's kid's seem around 10 years old. But that would make Jack 2.0 and Hailey (sister of Jack 2.0) around 12-13.  Plus Kevin looked alot older aged than 10 yrs. I would say more like 20 years.

The Jack 2.0 timeline looks to be around 20-25 years into the future which would make sense with how Tess looked when Randall picked her up and how Randall and Kevin have aged.

I wonder if Madison will miscarriage at some point after the Big 3's 40th birthday and Kevin moves on and has twins with Sophie or another woman? 

We need a decent timeline thread.

[RTG]

17 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Also, why do people think Kevin is married to Madison? Just because she’s the father of his children doesn’t mean that they’re married. It isn’t 1950. There’s a reason that they haven’t shown his wife, IMO.

Exactly! I'm still holding on to Kevin getting back with Sadie.

[CarpeFelis]

2 hours ago, saber5055 said:

My conclusion #1: Randall continues to be a dick.

My conclusion #2: Beth rocks.

My problem with this episode #1: Kate and Toby throw a big birthday party for Little Jack, people come from all over the country, then K and T take baby, walk out and leave everyone without even saying "Bye, thanks for coming and bringing presents. Lock up when you leave."

Problem #2: Madison comes to the family gathering/birthday party to dump her pregnancy news on Kevin, something that should be done privately? Alrighty then.

Problem #3: Everyone eats, then leaves Rebecca to do the dishes? WTH people!

Question: So blind baby Jack ends up being able to see just fine in the future? Maybe a dying Kate willed him her corneas ... That could be a good episode.

Madison didn’t come just to dump her news on Kevin. She commented that she was late, so she was evidently invited to the party.

[The Ringo Kidd]

Kevin needs to walk away from Randall and his all consuming problems. As Beth will do when she divorces him. Now that he has a family of his own he should concentrate on that and his career. Let Randall wallow in his own self pity and arrogance. It’s what Randall wants after all. 
 

Kevin can offer Rebecca a choice. It is hers to make. If she chooses to indulge Randall at the expense of her own health it would not be anything new in the family dynamics. We are all the sum of our choices.

[Dejana]

9 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The timeline is a bit confusing.  The point when we see Rebecca on her "death bed" is approximately 10 years in the future as Kevin's kid's seem around 10 years old. But that would make Jack 2.0 and Hailey (sister of Jack 2.0) around 12-13.  Plus Kevin looked alot older aged than 10 yrs. I would say more like 20 years.

The Jack 2.0 timeline looks to be around 20-25 years into the future which would make sense with how Tess looked when Randall picked her up and how Randall and Kevin have aged.

I wonder if Madison will miscarriage at some point after the Big 3's 40th birthday and Kevin moves on and has twins with Sophie or another woman? 

We need a decent timeline thread.

Jack Damon, successful singer/new dad, is happening many years beyond Rebecca's death. When Rebecca is on her deathbed, he'd be a teenager at most.

Kevin and Randall got in some low, low blows. That fight wouldn't have happened if Randall hadn't emotionally manipulated/blackmailed Rebecca into changing her mind about taking part in the study, but sometimes it's up to you to be the bigger person and just walk away before saying something you can't take back. The toxic dynamic between the brothers is really Jack and Rebecca's fault, but it will be difficult/impossible for either sibling to see it that way. 

[SweetSable]

6 hours ago, milner said:

Was no one else bothered by Kate and Toby immediately being able to scroll through pictures of children needing to be adopted?  It was like  “let’s adopt.  Check out amazon!!”  Is it even legal to post pics of kids like that?   And choose based on looks alone. Seems a bit like a pedophiles catalogue. It made me feel sick. 

About 10 years ago one of my bosses and his partner adopted and I remember him looking at adoption websites.  They had information about children up for adoption, including photos (he wasn't adopting a newborn).  I don't know if he had to be given a log-in from the adoption agency (I hope so), or if anyone could view the information (I hope not).

[CarpeFelis]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I may be alone in this, or at least at a relatively small table in the room.  But I continue to like and have empathy for Randall even while vehemently disagreeing with many of his choices.  Granted, I wasn't as enamored of him in Season 1 as many people.  He showed his selfishness from jump with bringing William home without so much as a conversation.  So maybe it didn't feel as much like a heel-turn to me.

 

Randall’s recent actions (going back to his nasty “teaching bored housewives to twirl” comment to Beth last season) have made me hate him lately, but there’s still a good, caring person hiding somewhere underneath (okay, maybe DEEP underneath) all his insecurities/anxieties/control issues/savior complex. He’s redeemable. It may take a huge kick in the butt from Beth—and his therapist—but we’ve already seen the future where he and Kevin are, at the very least, on speaking terms at Rebecca’s deathbed. And he’s relinquished her care to Kevin, which is huge.

[tennisgurl]

Randall is so obsessed with not letting his mother die, I half expect to find him stuffing Rebecca's corpse one day as he talks to "Mother" while also doing a Rebecca voice. 

Something that kind of struck me where the tones of Kevin and Randall during the fight. Kevin sounded super pissed off and was just throwing out random angry things in the heat of the moment, possibly just out of anger and possibly things he has thought before but never said, but Randall sounded like he he was reciting a prepared speech about everything he hates about Kevin and what a shitty person he thinks he is, like he has been thinking those things for years and was happy to finally have an excuse to get it out there and still feel like the good guy. I dont know if it was an acting choice or writing, but while Kevin sounded furious, Randall just sounded ice cold. 

Its funny, in season one, Randall was by far the most likable of the Big Three. Yeah all of them were sympathetic and often likable, but while Kevin and Kate could often be selfish, petty, and mean, and were clearly riddled with various issues and neurosis, while Randall was seemingly well adjusted, had this perfect life with a perfect family, a kind and supportive husband, son, father, and brother, hard working, and his biggest problem seemed to be things that weren't personal failing so much as obstacles that he worked to overcome, like his anxiety and mixed race adoption angst, that just made him even more sympathetic. Even in flashbacks, Kevin was often a bully to Randall and a cocky teen, Kate was resentful of her mom and often angsty and bratty as a teen, while Randall was a perfect kid who got great grades, never broke rules, was always nice and helpful, and most of kid/teen Randall's plots were ones where bad things happened to him and he showed his better nature. I loved Randall in season one, but at times I found him to be a bit less interesting because he was just SO perfect, especially compared to the rest of the more flawed Pearsons. I even thought that it might be the writers fear of writing their black characters with the same realistic flaws that the white ones had out of fears of accusations of racism. Maybe the writers noticed, because by season two we started to see more of his flaws, albeit ones that were still consistent with his character. He showed arrogance, a massive ass hero/martyr complex, selfishness, and a real mean streak, one that especially got directed at his family. And maybe I remember it wrong, but the first season flashbacks had a lot of kid Kevin picking on Randall and Randall just kind of taking it, while later we saw the two of them more bickering and Randall gave as well as he got. I think they wanted to make Randall a more well rounded character, who has good sides and bad sides like the rest of the cast, but I think they have gone too far in making Randall flawed, especially as the rest of the family has been working on their issues and have been trying to improve. It is interesting, it almost makes you wonder if we were getting a lot of the past filtered through Randall perspective, or the show later deconstructed much of his character that was established in season one (like I said, its all pretty consistent, just they are magnifying his flaws so much more) or that these were all there the whole time, but meeting and losing William just sent him on a massive spiral, a spiral that Kevin and Kate already hit so they have already started getting better, we are just in the think of it with Randall, or if they are just over correcting. Or if they dont realize that Randall has become such a prick at all. 

You know, in retrospect, maybe the birthday party wasn't the best place for this. 

[kili]

Quote

Kevin sounded super pissed off and was just throwing out random angry things in the heat of the moment, possibly just out of anger and possibly things he has thought before but never said, but Randall sounded like he he was reciting a prepared speech about everything he hates about Kevin and what a shitty person he thinks he is, like he has been thinking those things for years and was happy to finally have an excuse to get it out there and still feel like the good guy. 

Randall did have the benefit of knowing the argument was coming while Kevin did not. Randall knew that Kevin would be upset if he figured out that Rebecca was coerced by Randall, so he could practice his justifications and comebacks to Kevin.

Plus, as we saw last week during his fantasy alt-realities, he does actually think all those things about Kevin.  Randall probably feels great that he finally got to tell Kevin what a loser son, loser person and loser actor he is. 

I just can't get over how he keeps dissing of the acting. I can get that his view of Kevin is biased, but how can he miss that Kevin is a reasonably successful actor who is being courted by well-respected directors? Kevin first created a television character that anchored a successful show for years and then flipped from being stereotyped as a himbo to getting meaty dramatic roles - that's not an easy transition to make in the time period given. And Kevin was the architect of that transition by going to New York and producing a play which could demonstrated his dramatic chops. Sure, there is still a huge element of luck, but how can Randall not see any of that? 

Other than allowing Kevin to crash in his basement, has Randall ever really been there and supportive to Kevin? (I guess he went to rehab, but he wasn't really supportive). 

[ECM1231]

9 hours ago, Pallas said:

"Kate's first tooth...Randall's first words...Kevin's first steps..."  Show. She's only a year old. A little early to decide that the girl-child doesn't do anything?

Well, of the 3 she is the one with the heartiest appetite, so the better to chew that food with, I suppose. 😉

[Armchair Critic]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

19 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Madison is Kevin's baby mama and her bad timing actually turned out well for her. The love of Kevin's life will be his child he says. TWINS!

First of all that is a creepy thing for Kevin to say.   Second, it turns Madison into nothing more than a baby maker, like Kevin doesn't care about Madison at all.

Above and beyond that, that was right after the argument Kevin had with Randall,  Kevin's statement to Madison was impulsive cruel and not well thought out at all.

I agree that it makes it sound like Madison is just a vessel for his babies which is cruel. If Madison was in love with him that would have really hurt, thankfully she was pragmatic about it.

I'm with @JudyObscure that I would like to see a story where they eventually end up truly falling in love. But obviously they are far from that point now.

[ams1001]

20 minutes ago, ECM1231 said:

Well, of the 3 she is the one with the heartiest appetite, so the better to chew that food with, I suppose. 😉

I only commented on Randall's "first" being talking, but Kate's first being her tooth did not escape me. (Don't know if the writers were intentionally trying to hint at her future weight, but I kinda gave that line a side-eye.) And Kevin's was first steps...start of his HS athletic career, I guess.

Edited March 25, 2020 by ams1001

[Amarg4387]

17 hours ago, ScorpioSoul said:

Am I totally off because I see no one else has mentioned it, but when they showed Cassidy did it seem off how they showed off her walking, like she could be pregnant also? She would be further along than Madison. Was I just seeing something?

I had the same thought! That would be too soap opera though, right?!?!? 

19 minutes ago, ECM1231 said:

Well, of the 3 she is the one with the heartiest appetite, so the better to chew that food with, I suppose. 😉

Rude and ugly thing to say. 

[ams1001]

11 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

I agree that it makes it sound like Madison is just a vessel for his babies which is cruel. If Madison was in love with him that would have really hurt, thankfully she was pragmatic about it.

I'm with @JudyObscure that I would like to see a story where they eventually end up truly falling in love. But obviously they are far from that point now.

Yeah, it didn't come out in the best way, but if he had said he was "all in" on a relationship with her, I think that would have been a bit too much. In their circumstances, I think his telling her he'll be there to help raise their kids, and not projecting what they might (or might not) be to each other in the future, is the best thing for them, for now, at least.

I hope we get to see them getting to know each other, though. They'll need to if they're going to coparent, even if they don't get together as a couple. If they fall in love in the process, I'm okay with that.

[Cementhead]

nevermind

Edited March 25, 2020 by Cementhead

[ECM1231]

2 hours ago, Amarg4387 said:

I had the same thought! That would be too soap opera though, right?!?!? 

Rude and ugly thing to say. 

Why is that a rude and ugly thing to say? It's been shown from early on that Kate has a problem with overeating. Rebecca tried to help her by giving her healthy foods to eat but she always resisted and Jack would always give in to Kate, like the time he took her for ice cream (without the boys and unbeknownst to Rebecca).   She was a chubby child and slimmed down in her teens due to her watching her weight and possibly exercising. After Jack died, her weight totally got out of control, but they really haven't delved into that from what I can recall. 

It was a joke, perhaps a poor one, but I meant no harm. And fwiw, I'm a fat girl, so I feel for Kate and her issues.

Edited March 25, 2020 by ECM1231

[Amarg4387]

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

Am I the only one that thought the co-worker (Zack?) to Kate's daughter was creepy AF?  Harassing her for a date and then harassing her to name the one-night stand?

Yes! Not cute or charming. I hope she doesn't end up with him. 

[mishap]

That argument was rough. Wow.  I thought the worst thing i had ever heard a sibling say to another sibling was that their terminal cancer was basically karma because inheritance dispute.  Well that is still probably the worst , and that happened in real life.  

I don't think Randall deserved what Kevin said,  or vice versa, but Randall did start it.  Kevin has come to Randall, to help him through a panic attack, so he knows that  Kevin can come through. And he knows that he  himself is not infallible.  He has his weakness with the anxiety , Kevin with alcohol and Kate, with food.   That they are the age they are, and act like they can't just be there for each other, warts and all, is sad.  But Randall did start this, with his manipulation of Rebecca.  His  refusal to try and understand anyone else's point of view, and forging ahead with his wants, is going to cause resentment, of course.  

Thank goodness Beth got Rebecca out of there because if she had had to witness that, it might have killed her on the spot.  

The only reason I see for the horse / Dr./ daughter scenes were because the daughter said that he wasn't letting the horse be himself, and he said those same words  to Madison, when she talked about the father of her baby.  But that seemed like an awfully lot of time invested , just for that.  On the other hand, if he didn't have those words or wisdom, maybe  Madison would not have ever told Kevin.     But unless Madison and Kate stopped being friends,  I think someone would have put 2 and 2 together, or at least questioned Madison about it.  

So I'm guessing there will be more to the horse/ Dr/ daughter story line.  

[Racj82]

23 hours ago, mommalib said:

You know after season 1 when Randall was so beloved and had this wonderful image I just knew they were not gonna let a black man hold on to that. They have deconstructed him into a mess lol.  Those things that him and Kevin said to each other was a long time coming, sure they have had moments but the have never been good with each other. When Kevin said that Randall was the worst thing that ever happened I know he meant that based off the way he treated Randall when they were growing up. I don't see them really coming back from the things they said and I don't know if they should. 

Why does him being black need to be brought into this? Gender and race get thrown into way too many discussions these days no matter the relevance.

Randall is very much his father's son. Jack and Randall were both built up as two almost impossibly great human beings. And then the show fractured BOTH of their Halo's to show them as the flawed human beings they really are. Just like all humans are. 

Edited March 26, 2020 by Racj82

[kili]

Quote

 I only commented on Randall's "first" being talking, but Kate's first being her tooth did not escape me. (Don't know if the writers were intentionally trying to hint at her future weight, but I kinda gave that line a side-eye.) And Kevin's was first steps...start of his HS athletic career, I guess.

They had already established that Kevin was the first to walk in "Number One" and Randall is the first to talk in "Number Three".  Those episodes start with Rebecca and Jack videotaping the little ones hoping to catch first steps. Kevin is the first to walk, Kate is second and Randall is third. Randall caps off his walking by saying what they think is the word "table". 

Giving Kate the first tooth in this episode is not exactly PC, but it is one of the big milestones the other two haven't claimed already.  She could have been the first to sit up or crawl or turn over or sit up. Too early at 1 year old for any of them to have legitimately be toilet trained.

[PepSinger]

39 minutes ago, kili said:

I just can't get over how he keeps dissing of the acting. I can get that his view of Kevin is biased, but how can he miss that Kevin is a reasonably successful actor who is being courted by well-respected directors? Kevin first created a television character that anchored a successful show for years and then flipped from being stereotyped as a himbo to getting meaty dramatic roles - that's not an easy transition to make in the time period given. And Kevin was the architect of that transition by going to New York and producing a play which could demonstrated his dramatic chops. Sure, there is still a huge element of luck, but how can Randall not see any of that? 

Something that I've noticed is that Randall has absolutely no respect for the performing arts, which as an artist myself (actor/singer/dancer), really pisses me off. I really, really wish someone would call him out on it. He's dismissive of Kevin's success, and last season he was dismissive of Beth's dancing. For some reason, Randall has bought into acting and dancing not being work, and he has an antiquated notion of acting. I would dream of having Kevin's career. Has Randall ever said anything negative about Kate's singing? I wonder if he hasn't because her desire to sing has never threatened him or because she's never been successful at it.

[RachelKM]

6 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Yeah, it didn't come out in the best way, but if he had said he was "all in" on a relationship with her, I think that would have been a bit too much. In their circumstances, I think his telling her he'll be there to help raise their kids, and not projecting what they might (or might not) be to each other in the future, is the best thing for them, for now, at least.

I hope we get to see them getting to know each other, though. They'll need to if they're going to coparent, even if they don't get together as a couple. If they fall in love in the process, I'm okay with that.

I thought it came out appropriately.  I don't find the word choice creepy on any level, as to the child or Madison.  I thought he chose the words because Madison specifically told him that she didn't expect anything from him and he could "still have the great love story" so he responded that his kid(s) would be his love story.  And Madison presented it as she was a person having his child who expected nothing from him.  He decided he wanted things expected from him, at least as to raising his child(ren).

For those saying that Kevin started it with the going back into the house comment, that is untrue.  I just rewatched (mostly to see if misheard the comments from Madison).  Kevin went outside to process what Madison had said and Randall came back to him and said "I'm gonna walk away from this" Kevin tried to tell Randall he didn't want to talk and Randall kept going:

Randall:  You think you know what's best for her after spending one day with her, because you took her to a movie premier?

Kevin: I think I know what's best for her because SHE TOLD US! And you took that from her.

Randall:  How dare you do this? How dare you waltz in here after 40 years?  How dare....

Kevin: No, no, no, "how dare I" what?

Randall: How dare you pretend you give a rat's ass about what anyone else wants other than you? You want mom to spend more time with the family because you want to spend more time with her. You want mom to decide with you. You, you, you.

Kevin: Are you kidding me right now? This is about me? 

Randall: Huh

Kevin: This isn't about me Randall. This is about you. It's not about mom. This is about you wanting to save mom. That's what this is about.

Randall: You have no idea what your talking about.

And then all the other stuff we talked about on the board happened.  I also wonder if the saving dad stuff Kevin said was really something he thought about in terms of Randall until Randall said something about what ifs in New York, New York.  Kevin looked genuinely surprised Randall would say that. 

Not that I don't think Kevin ever thought maybe he would have stopped Jack if he'd been there.  But I don't think he necessarily ever thought about it in terms of Randall didn't stop him.  He's never indicated that.  And he doesn't seem to blame Kate for the dog (and she was more directly responsible for Jack going it - Not blaming her at all, it's just a more obvious place to put blame if you wanted to blame someone other than Jack himself.)

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by RachelKM

[greeneyedscorpio]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

But that isn't what actually happened.  Rebecca made a choice Randall didn't like, so he manipulated her into going along with what he wanted because he can't relinquish his desire to control the situation.  He then let his mother make it seem as though it was her idea, and was fine with letting her lie to everyone as a means to protect him from the blowback.

And then HE lied when Kevin asked him what he said to Rebecca to get her to change her mind.  Told Kevin, "I don't know what you're talking about."  

[Armchair Critic]

8 hours ago, sasha206 said:

So we're to believe that a morbidly obese woman easily adopts a girl?  I thought Rebecca and Jack so easily adopting Randall was a sack of shit, but this is another "I call bullshit." 

Years ago I remember it being a general rule for adoption that there shouldn't be more than a 40 year age difference between parent and baby (although maybe they are adopting an older child?). So with her age and weight (possible health issues involved with morbid obesity) I would think Kate would have a harder time adopting.

[sandyskyblue]

I haven't read every comment yet, I have a theory about Randall and his relationship with Kevin, and as far as I know, no one has brought this up, so maybe I'm going way out on a limb here, but here goes: 

In an episode of All in the Family, Mike and Archie got into an argument (for those who never watched the show, Mike was Archie's young very liberal son-in-law, Archie was an old school bigot, Mike and his wife, Archie's daughter Gloria, lived with Archie and his wife Edith while Mike attended college) Edith tried to explain to Mike why Archie seemed to hate Mike, she said it was because Archie never went to college, Mike was young, etc, in other words, Archie was jealous of Mike and his potential, while Archie was stuck in a hourly blue collar job.  Then Edith went on to explain why Mike had issues with Archie.  She said that because she and Archie were letting Mike and Gloria live with them, (with the stipulation that Mike and Gloria would pay for all the room and board that she and Archie gave them once Mike got a job), Mike was uncomfortable with all that he and Gloria got from her parents, and knowing that he owed Archie and Edith so much, he was afraid he could never pay them back....in other words, sometimes, when someone gives us so much, we turn on them, because we feel we can never adequately 'pay them back'

Could this be part of the dynamic with Randall and Kevin?  Anytime Randall had a panic attack, who did he call?  Not his parents or Kate, he called Kevin...and then once he met Beth, she began helping through the attacks, too....does Randall feel he owes Kevin so much because Kevin helped him through the attacks and therefore, is he turning on him because he feels like he cannot pay Kevin back for the times when Kevin rescued him?

 

[marceline]

This thread is moving too fast for me to keep up with the posts but I knew it would be lit with people picking sides in The Big Fight.

Personally I'm kind of neutral. This would've been a doozy no matter what but there was a lot of outside stuff that burned away at some already short fuses. Obviously Madison and the news hit Kevin hard but there's also the fact that he's one year sober and that date coincides with Baby Jack's birthday. Remembering where he was a year ago was going to set him on edge.

Then you've got Randall who is in that raw state one is in when you've just had a breakthrough in therapy. (Yes, I say this from experience.) He's aware of his Rebecca issues but he's still operating from a place of fear about dealing with them honestly. On some level, he knows that he fucked up by pushing Rebecca into the trial. Seeing the family all together made him see what he asked her to give up.

That fight was ugly. It was the special kind of ugly you can only get when you fight with someone who knows you inside and out. Someone who knows every scar beneath the surface, every button to push, every fear that keeps you up at night. They each went for the jugular and they hit the target. There was no winner. They both limped away bleeding.

[leftlane]

20 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Speaking of selfish, awful behavior - Madison was completely in the wrong for telling Kevin she was pregnant at that moment. 

When you show up to a party for your friend's child, and it's clear that something upsetting has just happened, and then the father of your child actually tells you it's a terrible time to talk, you don't spring it on him that he's about to be a dad.

What? No she wasn't. 

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

Why does him being black need to be brought into this? Gender and race get thrown into way too many discussions these days no matter the relevance.

Randall is very much his father's son. Jack and Randall were both built up as two almost impossibly human beings. And then the show fractured BOTH of their Halo's to show them as the flawed human beings they really are. Just like all humans are. 

In 2020 you asking why does race have to be brought in to it? Two words history and reality.

[leftlane]

17 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

To be fair, Kevin first said that Randall should have saved Jack, and that if he had been there nothing would have stopped him from going in after him.  We have recently seen that Randall thinks every day about how he should have saved his father, so when he heard that, he quickly came up with that awful lie about how Jack died ashamed of Kevin.  Then Kevin responded.  I do wonder how Randall had that lie about Kevin right on the tip of his tongue, though,  I guess it's because he has no respect for anything Kevin's ever done?  Therefore, if one of his girls skipped college and became an actress, he'd be ashamed of her?

Ashamed of him for what?  Breaking his leg?  Being surly?  Even if Jack had been disappointed in Kevin's behavior, that isn't even close to being ashamed of him.

Are you serious right now? Ashamed of him for being an asshole and a screw up. Kevin as a kid and teen was a bully, bad student, and frequently blew off his responsibilities to his family. Jack said he was disappointed and ashamed of his behavior multiple times. I don't know how folks aren't remembering this stuff. Kevin was a difficult kid to raise. All of the kids were in their own ways.

[Bulldog]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Randall is so obsessed with not letting his mother die, I half expect to find him stuffing Rebecca's corpse one day as he talks to "Mother" while also doing a Rebecca voice. 

I could see the final scene of the series being Randall buying a rundown motel with a creepy house up on a hill overlooking it.  

[leftlane]

8 hours ago, mommalib said:

I also find it funny that people are talking about how they hate Randall but also seem to either not mention or forget that Randall has a case of high anxiety an actual medical issue that he's dealing with. I bet if Kevin had a case of anxiety it would be poor Kevin.

I honestly feel like the hate for Randall has a slight racial tinge to it. Like people couldn't wait for a reason to hate him and I think it's because subconsciously they don't really like black men.

I often find that comments in television forums like these tend to judge non-white characters much more harshly. Like I don't even think I've seen this much vitriol for Nicky and he killed a child.

No one ever goes that hard on Kevin and he's been consistently terrible the entire show. I like Kevin, but let's be real he's an asshole. He's self-centered, has a chip on his shoulders, toxic, and thinks the world owes him something. He's been better recently, but he has a pattern of treating Randall poorly because he's jealous of him and his relationship with their parents.

10 hours ago, sasha206 said:

So we're to believe that a morbidly obese woman easily adopts a girl?  I thought Rebecca and Jack so easily adopting Randall was a sack of shit, but this is another "I call bullshit." 

WTF does her weight have to do with her providing a loving home for a child. Get out of here with that fatphobic nonsense.

4 hours ago, mommalib said:

Yes i'm a black male to be specific. And yes there has been progress but things are still moving kinda slow and I still see diversity issues, biases, stereotypes etc. But I agree that Randall is a delicious character and I'm sure Sterling K is pleased but I just wonder what made them make such a sharp turn with the character since season 1. And then there are the people that seem like they been waiting to hate on Randall for  a while now and they're in their judgmental glory.

That last sentence! I completely agree. People are really showing their true colors.

Edited March 26, 2020 by leftlane

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, leftlane said:

I honestly feel like the hate for Randall has a slight racial tinge to it. Like people couldn't wait for a reason to hate him and I think it's because subconsciously they don't really like black men.

That's a pretty broad assumption and unfair when you lump an entire forum into it. I don't like Randall at the moment because he's being a douchebag. Sterling, however, is a great actor and it's to his credit that I feel so strongly about his character.

22 minutes ago, leftlane said:

Like I don't even think I've seen this much vitriol for Nicky and he killed a child.

True, but Nicky, and Kevin, unlike Randall at this point, admitted his mistakes showed remorse for his actions and has actively sought to make himself a better person.  Randall is still in his self-righteous asshole mode, and has completely disregarded the little bit of help he attempted to get.

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, mommalib said:

In 2020 you asking why does race have to be brought in to it? Two words history and reality.

History has nothing to do with this show and the reality is that how Randall and Jack were written early on was created in contrast to the reality of their life and personality later on in the show. Randall has always had anxiety issues, always idolized his father, doted over his mother, always had the stirring speech that change anyone's mind. Literally nothing has changed with Randall except how we view him based on more context. We basically have seen Randall and Jack the way Beth and Rebecca did. There were warning signs that they both had issues but they are both all around good and passionate people that drawn you in. Over time those characteristics aren't as sweet and awesome. Neither one of them are evil and choices they have made aren't bad depending on your viewpoint. But, they are both very flawed.

I don't care about history. I care about these characters and this show. That is where I'm coming from nor do I examine every or most characters on TV or movies based on perceived history. I look at them based on context and on a individual basis. 

[Marley]

I hate Randall. What he said to Kevin was disgusting. He thinks he’s so important. I wouldn’t mind if he got killed off but I know he doesn’t. Ugh damn that self important douche!

[Racj82]

Also, thinking the hatred for Randall is tinged with some sort of racism, prejudice or underlying issues is so amazing in how much I disagree. And I've seen this lobbied so much at people who dislike any female characters as well.

If anything, in this case, it's how the character is than having literally anything to do with his race. A lot of people don't like Marty Stues or Mary Sue's. Those terms are a bit reductive and overly used but it's real. Characters that are overly perfect. Constantly getting their way that people don't like. So, there is an amazing amount of glee in watching their faces fall. When they screw up. When they don't seem so perfect.

Making this a race thing is also removing the great writing involved. Early on we didn't really see the pressure Randall and Jack put on their loved ones with their grand gestures and speeches. But, now we've seen the characters fleshed out more. So, we feel it all differently. Randall guilting his mom into the treatment hurts so much because we see and know what Rebecca wants. We've had a chance to feel it. We've seen and addressed in show why Beth has at times had her limit to how much Randall she can take.

It's the power of the writing and performances that are bringing out such powerful reactions. 

[t7686]

10 hours ago, mommalib said:

That argument had a reality to it and that's why I would be okay with Randall and Kevin not being involved with each other. They never had a good relationship to begin with. Randall should focus on getting his mind right and focusing on his wife and daughters. He should take a step back from his siblings and his mother. He was always the odd man out, it's Kevin and Kate that have the bond and if there is a side to be taken Kate will likely side with Kevin anyway. Kevin and Kate can band together to look after Rebecca.

I don’t know. That enforces the narrative that Randall, the adopted, black brother should be the outsider. I agree that he needs to step back for a bit. But I don’t agree that he shouldn’t try to work it out with his siblings. Randall as the expendable one is a big part of the problem and I’d like to see that change. I’d also like his family to have more of role in the big story. Seems like baby Jack is the only important grandkid lately. Kate needs more of a role too. 

[mommalib]

46 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

History has nothing to do with this show and the reality is that how Randall and Jack were written early on was created in contrast to the reality of their life and personality later on in the show. Randall has always had anxiety issues, always idolized his father, doted over his mother, always had the stirring speech that change anyone's mind. Literally nothing has changed with Randall except how we view him based on more context. We basically have seen Randall and Jack the way Beth and Rebecca did. There were warning signs that they both had issues but they are both all around good and passionate people that drawn you in. Over time those characteristics aren't as sweet and awesome. Neither one of them are evil and choices they have made aren't bad depending on your viewpoint. But, they are both very flawed.

I don't care about history. I care about these characters and this show. That is where I'm coming from nor do I examine every or most characters on TV or movies based on perceived history. I look at them based on context and on a individual basis. 

For the love of god they have talked about race on the show it's not that big of a stretch. And maybe you don't care about history but I do, I have too. I don't have the luxury not too.

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, leftlane said:

10 hours ago, mommalib said:

I also find it funny that people are talking about how they hate Randall but also seem to either not mention or forget that Randall has a case of high anxiety an actual medical issue that he's dealing with. I bet if Kevin had a case of anxiety it would be poor Kevin.

I honestly feel like the hate for Randall has a slight racial tinge to it. Like people couldn't wait for a reason to hate him and I think it's because subconsciously they don't really like black men.

C'mon. That's not fair. For what it's worth, I am black woman. I am critical of Randall probably because I'm a lot like him. I also suffer from anxiety; I'm a perfectionist; I can be a "control freak" (but I'm a Virgo, so you know). I know the stress that it puts on family and friends when you lean so heavily on them due to panic attacks, which is why I sought help. That's why Randall's attitude towards therapy this season has annoyed the living shit out of me. I also want to play hero to my grandparents; anytime they have an ailment, I want to fly them to where I am, so they can go to one of the best hospitals in the country. I *completely* understand where Randall is coming from in his actions, which is why I don't hate him. He is a fully written character, and Sterling has done an excellent job portraying him. However, as much as I love the people in my life, I'm not required to like them at all times. Right now, I'm not liking Randall. And you know what? That's okay because I trust what this show is doing. These characters, like Randall, are us. Sometimes, I know I can be impossible, but that doesn't mean I'm any less deserving of love, and I feel the same way about Randall. 

[The Ringo Kidd]

But Randall is the outsider. He made himself that by being so arrogant and pompous that he always knows what is right and the other dummies should just shut up and do what he says. Even his wife. 

Hey guess what pal? Your failure brother is an insanely rich and talented movie star who is a household name. You needed him to win your stupid election. 
 

If I were Kevin I would never talk to him again.

 

[mommalib]

2 minutes ago, t7686 said:

I don’t know. That enforces the narrative that Randall, the adopted, black brother should be the outsider. I agree that he needs to step back for a bit. But I don’t agree that he shouldn’t try to work it out with his siblings. Randall as the expendable one is a big part of the problem and I’d like to see that change. I’d also like his family to have more of role in the big story. Seems like baby Jack is the only important grandkid lately. Kate needs more of a role too. 

It's not about whether or not Randall should be the outsider because he automatically is. And the kind of relationship he's had Kevin hasn't made that easier. As we just saw all of that come to a head this past episode. And they have taken his closeness to Rebecca and turned into some kind of co dependency. That started back in season  2 when Kevin started bitching about it in therapy. As if somehow it's wrong that Randall was the one that was close to Rebecca or that Randall is the one most like Jack.  

[Racj82]

12 minutes ago, mommalib said:

For the love of god they have talked about race on the show it's not that big of a stretch. And maybe you don't care about history but I do, I have too. I don't have the luxury not too.

Knock yourself out! Have a good one.

[mommalib]

5 minutes ago, The Ringo Kidd said:

But Randall is the outsider. He made himself that by being so arrogant and pompous that he always knows what is right and the other dummies should just shut up and do what he says. Even his wife. 

Hey guess what pal? Your failure brother is an insanely rich and talented movie star who is a household name. You needed him to win your stupid election. 
 

If I were Kevin I would never talk to him again.

 

Oh he's the outsider because he's arrogant and pompous? I guess it has nothing to do with the color of his skin  or the fact that he was adopted and raised by people who look nothing like him and have no idea what it's like to live in his skin. In a world that's all too ready to remind you how different you are, you not even safe from that in your own house with a jerk like Kevin for a brother.

Just now, Racj82 said:

Knock yourself out! Have a good one.

Yeah same to you.