S24.E09: Week 9 - Overnight Dates (Australia)

[dirtypop90]

21 minutes ago, Cornhusker12 said:

The big difference was that Luke was an asshole all season and Hannah gave him chance after chance and disregarded warnings from other guys multiple times. He may have been "walking the walk" in terms of his born again virginity, but not in being a pious virtuous person. When he got all sanctimonious at the end it made Hannah realize how phony he was and how duped she had been. That's why it was different. Madison might be saying the same things, but she didn't have an entire season's worth of acting like a jerk leading up to that moment.

I said a difference is that Madison is a likable woman. The conversation, though, was no different than the one Luke had with Hannah during fantasy suites, which was my point. They both gave ultimatums based on their religious beliefs. We have no clue if Madison is a perfect Christian either. In fact, we know she isn't, because no one is. I concede Luke was a mess last season but his FS conversation with Hannah was the same as Madison's with Peter.

[dirtypop90]

24 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 

I defended Luke as well.  He did some shady stuff early in the show but telling Hannah that if she slept with the other guys it would be a deal breaker for him was not one of them.  He had a right to his own standards just as Madison does.  People only thought Luke was slut-shaming Hannah because she said he was in her big shouty attempt to deflect and cast herself as some sort of feminist icon.

I think Luke and Madison were the most interesting people in their seasons.  In fact I would love to see more   diversity of religion, with more Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Buddhists, as well as  Evangelical Christians like Luke and Madison.  I'd also like to hear someone say if you're way into Nascar (or crafting, or gun collecting, or pet reptiles, or liver and onions, or Crossfit) that would be a deal breaker for me.

I too defended Luke. I think, since Hannah is a woman, the audience mostly made up of women related to her more and went into defense mode.  Now, the sexes have been reversed and the audience is protective over Madison because she's a woman.  I don't think any man, not just Luke, would get the benefit of the doubt Madison is getting for making this ultitmatum.  If a man says it, he's being controlling. If a woman says it, she has high standards. That's just what I'm seeing. 

I get the history. I do. But there's nothing controlling to me about someone, male or female, saying I'm not proposing to or accepting a proposal from someone who just slept with multiple other people the same week. That's just being sane. Madison and Luke have just highlighted the absurdness of this whole process and why most of the final pairings don't work.  Over two decades of the bachelor and only one bachelor has married his final one, and he was abstaining. Colton's the only other one with his final one and he too kept it in his pants. This isn't a coincidence. 

[JenE4]

4 hours ago, valen said:

He better pick Madison after he BEGGED her to stay and said "I cannot lose you." At the very least, he should respect her enough to cut her if he isn't going to pick her. If he picks someone else, I don't see how they recover from him begging her to stay 

Peter “begged” all three of them and gushed to all about how in love he is with them and sees himself marrying them. Actually, he got a little less effusive on each subsequent date, so Hannah Ann basically got a “pre-proposal” and promise it’s the two of them at the end. Victoria got a big to-do that he just needs her to fully open up to him so he can commit to her. And then Madison got an Um, well, are you really going to throw this away because I was intimate with someone else? That wasn’t nearly the “promise” that Hannah Ann got. But basically he begged ALL of them to open their hearts to their future knowing that he’s going to break two of their hearts—one of them very soon. In fact, he even told Kelsey he loved her before he dumped her, too. I think it was Ben who told two girls he was falling in love—and remember the backlash because it meant he was leading someone on?! Peter had told FOUR WOMEN he’s in love and pictures their marriage!! Fuck off, Peter! I hope the big secret ending no one ever saw coming is that the three girls left compare notes in their hotel suite and then go confront Peter en masse for telling them all basically the same thing. Then they bring back Kelsey as a special guest star to tell him off, too.  Then they all leave and the “her” mom is crying over is anyone willing to take him—which will be no one because Peter is the worst Bachelor in Bachelor History! And that includes out of Ben Flajnik, Charlie O’Connell, and Juan Pablo! 

Edited February 25, 2020 by JenE4

[valen]

2 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Peter “begged” all three of them and gushed to all about how in love he is with them and sees him marrying them. Actually, he got a little less effusive on each subsequent date, so Hannah Ann basically got a “pre-proposal” and promise it’s the two of them at the end. Victoria got a big to-do that he just needs her to fully open up to him so he can commit to her. And then Madison got an Um, well, are you really going to throw this away because I was intimate with someone else? That wasn’t nearly the “promise” that Hannah Ann got. But basically he begged ALL of them to open their hearts to their future knowing that he’s going to break two of their hearts—one of them very soon. In fact, he even told Kelsey he loved her before he dumped her, too. I think it was Ben who told two girl he was falling in love—and remember the backlash because it meant he was leading someone on?! Peter had told FOUR WOMEN he’s in love and pictures their marriage!! Fuck off, Peter! I hope the big secret ending no one ever saw coming is that the three girls left compare notes in their hotel suite and then go confront Peter en masse for telling them all basically the same thing. Then they bring back Kelsey as a special guest star to tell him off, too.  Then they all leave and the “her” mom is crying over is anyone willing to take him—which will be no one because Peter is the worst Bachelor in Bachelor History! And that includes out of Ben Flajnik, Charlie O’Connell, and Juan Pablo! 

He specifically said, "Please don't leave" and "I can't lose you." To me, that was begging her specifically, but I get your point. Chris Harrison is right. Peter is so afraid of making the wrong decision that he can't make one at all. Hannah too was so afraid of picking the wrong guy that her fear dictated her choices and her worst nightmare came true. I think that will happen with Peter too. He's so afraid of ending up alone and that's exactly what's going to happen.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Captain Asshat said:

Well, this and the fact that, once the cameras leave, the show stops paying for elaborate dates, and they actually spend real time together, they realize they're actually horrible together.

I don't think Victoria is interested in anything where she isn't being filmed/can't get famous out of it.

[LBS]

1 hour ago, DEL901 said:

https://people.com/tv/the-bachelor-chris-harrison-why-women-living-together-fantasy-suites/

Quote

“Peter, for example, has trouble making decisions,” he continued. “I don’t know if you guys have noticed that. The king of kicking the can down the road. Heaven forbid you make a decision.”

 

Really, Chris Harrison?  Really?  So because Peter can't make a decision (including lowering his drinking hand away from his face when he hits his head on a golf cart) that means that the final three have to be in an uncomfortable and gross situation to make it easier for him?  That is some interesting logic.

[Dejana]

The Ringer's take on the difference between Luke P and Madison:

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2020/2/24/21151783/the-bachelor-season-24-episode-9-recap-fantasy-suites-peter-madison

 

Quote

Knowing what we know about Peter, it makes sense that he ignored Madison’s request. Peter thought it was well within his rights to have sex with everybody who wanted to, and probably thought of himself as benevolent for doing so—remember when he had sex with Hannah [Brown] and she actually started to acknowledge him? He probably figured that not having sex would be a miscarriage of his duties and go against the Bachelor Process he’s so sure works. If the sex is good, he could even make one of these women into the star of the next season of The Bachelorette! He probably also remembers how Luke’s attempt to get Hannah to refrain from sex with other contestants went: Luke got axed and the world cheered; Hannah became an icon for her passionate defense of her right to have sex with whoever she wanted.

Of course, while both were essentially asking the same things, the tenor of Luke’s ultimatum and Madison’s plea were totally different. Luke came off like a regressive troglodyte demanding control over a woman’s body. Madison acknowledged that Peter had all the power in the situation, but begged him to make the right choice. Luke was an angry boyfriend, and angry boyfriends suck. Madison was a girlfriend plaintively pleading for some respect, and it’s hard not to feel for her.

That said, I still think Madison was probably out of line to apply real-world logic to the world of The Bachelor. When you sign up to appear on The Dating 30 People Show with the Four-Time Windmill Sex Guy, you have to know what you’re getting into. And while Madison obviously has the right to control what happens to her own body, it gets murky when she tells Peter how to handle his other relationships. But Peter still comes across looking like he misplayed the situation. He thought he’d be hailed for treating Madison’s demand the same way Hannah treated Luke’s; instead he looks like a jerk for ignoring the girl he seemingly likes the most. He thought he was on TV to be the Sex Guy—in the coming weeks, we’ll see whether that misconception has consequences.

 

-----

Arie and Lauren have been doing recaps of the season and I was really interested in their thoughts on this episode.

 

Neither likes having the women stay together during Fantasy Suite week. Arie thinks Madison should have told Peter that saving herself for marriage was part of why she didn’t want him sleeping with anyone else. He also thinks the order of the dates might changed the whole outcome of the season, but says TPTB pick who goes first/second/third. Lauren thinks Madison said enough before Fantasy Suites for Peter to know how bothered she'd be about sex with the other women. Lauren mentions that she'd wanted to say something along those lines to Arie but ultimately decided not to, out of respect for the situation (of him dating multiple women). She chides Arie a bit for not figuring things out during his season and finds Fantasy Suite week hard to talk about/relive.

[dirtypop90]

^ They are reimagining the conversation with Luke. I just watched. He was not in any way the "angry boyfriend" or aggressive. He was inarticulate, but very calm. In fact, he was nervous and his voice was shaky. He was not demanding in any way.  Hannah was the angry and aggressive one, yelling at him while standing over him, and then flipping him off.

Edited February 25, 2020 by dirtypop90

[RealHousewife]

48 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

^ They are reimagining the conversation with Luke. I just watched. He was not in any way the "angry boyfriend" or aggressive. He was inarticulate, but very calm. In fact, he was nervous and his voice was shaky. He was not demanding in any way.  Hannah was the angry and aggressive one, yelling at him while standing over him, and then flipping him off.

Exactly. I remember he looked hurt too. I know it’s an unpopular opinion among Bachelor Nation, but I was team Luke that episode, and trust me he wasn’t my favorite of the guys. However I don’t think he was the monster they made him out to be, I think he sincerely cared for Hannah, and he was only human to not want the woman he wants to propose to, to have just slept with another person. And then there was the way they all treated him at that tell all episode. I thought it was wrong. 

[dirtypop90]

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

Exactly. I remember he looked hurt too. I know it’s an unpopular opinion among Bachelor Nation, but I was team Luke that episode, and trust me he wasn’t my favorite of the guys. However I don’t think he was the monster they made him out to be, I think he sincerely cared for Hannah, and he was only human to not want the woman he wants to propose to, to have just slept with another person. And then there was the way they all treated him at that tell all episode. I thought it was wrong. 

Luke was maybe the only man her season that actually liked her. He is the only one who would've married her.

Luke had his awful moments but so did she! He was never some big, scary, angry boyfriend. He was more so a doofus and totally clueless. Hannah threw more tantrums. 

The whole windmill ordeal was ridiculous. Imagine Jed wasn't a bad guy with a girlfriend and she had told the whole world she screwed another dude twice in a windmill days before he proposed? She acted crazy with Luke. She didn't care about Jed's feelings, or peter's, or Tyler's. No matter whom she chose her relationship wouldn't last because of HER actions. Same for Peter.

Edited February 25, 2020 by dirtypop90
Typo

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

^ They are reimagining the conversation with Luke. I just watched. He was not in any way the "angry boyfriend" or aggressive. He was inarticulate, but very calm. In fact, he was nervous and his voice was shaky. He was not demanding in any way.  Hannah was the angry and aggressive one, yelling at him while standing over him, and then flipping him off.

Every time I watch my heart breaks for him a little bit.  Whatever faults Luke has I think he was one of the few people on this show to ever really fall in love.  Hannah B herself said meeting Luke was the only time in her life when she experienced love at first sight. I'll never forget Hannah giving Luke a standing ovation and screaming her lungs out when he came out and posed in his swim trunks.  They both admit that early in the season she told him he was "the one."  Now, sure, things got rocky after that, but every time she scolded him or sent him home and then took him back, he had reason to believe that he was still the one and that they were just going through rocky times in the "true love never runs smooth" sense. 

At that final scene, after he told her quietly that he couldn't propose if she slept with the other guys. Hannah went berserk.  Yes, aggressive, angry and controlling telling him her husband would never talk that way.  Poor Luke was shocked at what she had done, but was still so in love that he immediately started walking back what he had just said and offered up an excuse that would mean he could still marry her, something like, "If you just lost your head, then that would be alright."  It just made her madder.  Hannah didn't want to be forgiven for anything because that might mean she had made a mistake.  Hannah was always right and it was the men who had to please her.  The whole season.

[RealHousewife]

9 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Luke was maybe the only man her season that actually liked her. He is the only one who would've married her.

Luke had his awful moments but so did she! He was never some big, scary, angry boyfriend. He was more so a doofus and totally clueless. Hannah threw more tantrums. 

The whole windmill ordeal was ridiculous. Imagine Jed wasn't a bad guy with a girlfriend and she had told the whole world she screwed another dude twice in a windmill days before he proposed? She acted crazy with Luke. She didn't care about Jed's feelings, or peter's, or Tyler's. No matter who she chose her relationship wouldn't last because of HER actions. Same for Peter.

 

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

Every time I watch my heart breaks for him a little bit.  Whatever faults Luke has I think he was one of the few people on this show to ever really fall in love.  Hannah B herself said meeting Luke was the only time in her life when she experienced love at first sight. I'll never forget Hannah giving Luke a standing ovation and screaming her lungs out when he came out and posed in his swim trunks.  They both admit that early in the season she told him he was "the one."  Now, sure, things got rocky after that, but every time she scolded him or sent him home and then took him back, he had reason to believe that he was still the one and that they were just going through rocky times in the "true love never runs smooth" sense. 

At that final scene, after he told her quietly that he couldn't propose if she slept with the other guys. Hannah went berserk.  Yes, aggressive, angry and controlling telling him her husband would never talk that way.  Poor Luke was shocked at what she had done, but was still so in love that he immediately started walking back what he had just said and offered up an excuse that would mean he could still marry her, something like, "If you just lost your head, then that would be alright."  It just made her madder.  Hannah didn't want to be forgiven for anything because that might mean she had made a mistake.  Hannah was always right and it was the men who had to please her.  The whole season.

All this. I hope we get a much kinder Bachelorette next time. 

[SallyAlbright]

17 hours ago, Mswldflwr said:

More like Hannah B, I'd say.

 

I would be very surprised - he seems to be on good terms with Hannah, and he really hated Luke that season. They were the two on the 2-on-1 and were constantly sniping at one another. I think he's taking the chance to get another dig in at Luke. 

[galaxychaser]

Is Hannah B currently single?

[jumper sage]

2 hours ago, Dejana said:

When you sign up to appear on The Dating 30 People Show with the Four-Time Windmill Sex Guy, you have to know what you’re getting into.

Exactly!  Great season for a harem, no?  That was just so gross with the girls going out, having sex, doing the walk of shame into the hotel and having the other girls ask how it went.

[angelamh66]

Any defense of Luke is, in my opinion,  revisionist history.  Dude was awful.  Gaslighting,  narcissisticly awful.  

[dirtypop90]

3 minutes ago, angelamh66 said:

Any defense of Luke is, in my opinion,  revisionist history.  Dude was awful.  Gaslighting,  narcissisticly awful.  

My defense was solely of that one conversation during fantasy suites not all of his behavior.

luke was awful but so was his bachelorette. She was too a narcissist and none of the men but Luke liked her, for good reason. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by dirtypop90

[EssieMay]

Has anybody said it yet? This Bachelor is just a f**k boy. Body of a man, emotional maturity of a thirteen year old boy, not even decent boyfriend material for at least another ten years. “Wait, what, you don’t want me to have sex with other girls? I’m so surprised. And that’s not really fair because, like, I really want to have sex with them. And like I really lovvvvve you.” At the final rose ceremony he asks F1 to go steady and presents his letter jacket.

[nlkm9]

7 hours ago, valen said:

He better pick Madison after he BEGGED her to stay and said "I cannot lose you." At the very least, he should respect her enough to cut her if he isn't going to pick her. If he picks someone else, I don't see how they recover from him begging her to stay 

All i could think of was how Hannah will feel when she sees this clip, she who so pathetically said he could do whatever he wanted and she would be waiting there for him. She is so second choice . Victoria will fake that she’s upset but i don’t believe anything she says.

16 minutes ago, EssieMay said:

Has anybody said it yet? This Bachelor is just a f**k boy. Body of a man, emotional maturity of a thirteen year old boy, not even decent boyfriend material for at least another ten years. “Wait, what, you don’t want me to have sex with other girls? I’m so surprised. And that’s not really fair because, like, I really want to have sex with them. And like I really lovvvvve you.” At the final rose ceremony he asks F1 to go steady and presents his letter jacket.

Actually body of a 13 year old :: shudder::: sorry I went from really liking him to being amazed at how gross he is in so many ways . Someone up thread said he was a chubby cheeked hamster and that made me lol.

[cinsays]

So, what is Luke up to these days?  Maybe he and Madison should meet and see what happens.

They may be a better match.

[nlkm9]

2 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

Luke was maybe the only man her season that actually liked her. He is the only one who would've married her.

Luke had his awful moments but so did she! He was never some big, scary, angry boyfriend. He was more so a doofus and totally clueless. Hannah threw more tantrums. 

The whole windmill ordeal was ridiculous. Imagine Jed wasn't a bad guy with a girlfriend and she had told the whole world she screwed another dude twice in a windmill days before he proposed? She acted crazy with Luke. She didn't care about Jed's feelings, or peter's, or Tyler's. No matter whom she chose her relationship wouldn't last because of HER actions. Same for Peter.

Exactly - she only cared about her needs . I felt Andi was similarly selfish- bragging to her sister how “passionate” nick was , and sleeping with him before choosing the “ love of her life”. It’s a shame that Josh never got over that considering the show he was on, but it’s not only men who have been incredibly selfish.

[dirtypop90]

^Lauren B never got over Ben sleeping with the other two and Ben admitted it. Shawn never got over it. Strung kaitlyn along but never was going to marry her according to kaitlyn. Knowing what little I do about Catherine Lowe and Cassie, I don’t think either of those women would’ve gotten over their men sleeping with others and there would be no bachelor couples together. 

28 minutes ago, cinsays said:

So, what is Luke up to these days?  Maybe he and Madison should meet and see what happens.

They may be a better match.

Last I heard, he was dating a girl from his church. She looked similar to Madison too. I still wonder if Madison signed up for Colton. Would make more sense. If not, she just signed up for the platform. 

[bravofan27]

So this is TV, and there are smart people editing this stuff that went to fancy schools. So I'm okay with being wrong. But Peter and Victoria really seem to be the right couple. He's lame, she's insecure, I think he likes having someone a little insecure but mostly I think they are both a little vapid and really into having sex with one another.

I don't see Hannah being that sexually into him. She's more wanting to be adored and taken out. Madison is clearly wanting a good spiritual leader for a future family. Victoria offers the less pressure. She just wants to have sex and she doesn't appear to have any raging drug or alcohol issues. So I'm going for Victoria as Peter's "soulmate" choice. His safe choice is Hannah will agree with whatever, and appears to be very connected to her family and will be fine no matter what. Madison is not going to work cuz the family will always judge him on how religious and good he is. So I'm going for Victoria as his pick. For now anyway! Things change in Bachelor World!

 

[jade.black]

First of all: THERE ARE NO WILD MONKEYS IN AUSTRALIA, DUMBASS. 

My first assumption having lived in Oz for a bit was that the girls were all sharing a room because it's so damn expensive there.

Peter is disgusting. Like, I almost need to look away from the screen, I'm so grossed out by him. I can hardly even place what it is. Something about his boyish face mixed with him constantly having his hands on the girls' faces and in their hair, insisting on touching foreheads while he "talks" to them, and by talk I mean stare intensely at them while they're trying to express feelings and then interrupt them with a middle school makeout. I felt this way watching his amateur moves on Hannah's season (when he got on top of her in the sauna it looked like a freshman practicing his moves). I would cringe at the thought of him even touching me.

Then, the way he handled the Madison situation. I am unspoiled, but it's seemed pretty clear for awhile now that she's his #1. She sat him down after the rose ceremony and laid out for him (poorly, but she still got the basic point across) that she might not continue in this if he sleeps with other women. That's totally fair. I don't know why people are acting like it's expected for the lead to sleep with all of the women, or any. Plenty of past leads have not done that, and others have been called out for doing so (Emily clearly thought Brad would have saved it for her, Nick thought Andi sleeping with him meant he was F1, etc). She basically was saying, hey, if I'm the one, I would expect you not to be with anyone else, but I'm not shaming you for sleeping around if that's what you want to do- I'm just probably not the one for you if that's your decision.

She is not the same as Luke, because Luke made assumptions that Hannah would not sleep with anyone else and waited until the overnight date to mention this like it was a fact, while Madison told Peter ahead of time that she couldn't come to terms with it if he slept with other people but that he had every right to do so if it was his choice.

Peter heard this, went and slept with (most likely) both women before her, then acted like he had nothing to answer for when Madison told him she would need a basic yes or no on his actions to know if he was the right one for her. Then he follows her just to put on an overwrought apology without ever explaining what he was sorry for, pulling her face to his (fuck, that move is so cringey) and just trying to transmit his regret through their foreheads until she walked away. 

The thing is, he's not sorry! He knew upfront that this could be a dealbreaker for her and did it anyway. Getting tearful over your own actions when you knew the other person would not be ok with them in the first place is manipulative and shitty. Screw you, Peter, you don't deserve the girl and you better not go chasing her back to Alabama. Just let her take the Bachelorette gig and settle down into your "exciting" life of probable domestic abuse and adultery with Victoria.

[SassyCat]

Well, I guess it's true. Physiognomy,... reading people's personalities by their facial characteristics, says people with baby faces have a hard time making decisions.

[nlkm9]

5 hours ago, LBS said:

Really, Chris Harrison?  Really?  So because Peter can't make a decision (including lowering his drinking hand away from his face when he hits his head on a golf cart) that means that the final three have to be in an uncomfortable and gross situation to make it easier for him?  That is some interesting logic.

total BS we know it was done for drama and its a new low for the show. however, I will still watch!!!

 

[bravofan27]

Madison-- "I don't want you to have sex with someone else"

Peter-- "We are different."

Madison-- "Excuse me."

Yeah, being a virgin sucks. I was a virgin for a long time, and normal guys (unless they are paying) don't care about virginity, and it's annoying to them. 

Peter is in no way planning to wait for Madison. He can't wait to sleep with Hannah and Victoria, he totally will, he knows this, and now the pressure is on him. Oh well. 

 

 

[TheFinalRose]

2 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

luke was awful but so was his bachelorette. She was too a narcissist and none of the men but Luke liked her, for good reason. 

Oh they were perfect for each other. I still think they might wind their way back into each other's lives. I said this before, their final fight was something they probably would have gotten over in real life if they had a chance to calm down, think about what happened and reapproach each other the next day and offer some heartfelt apologies.  

 

42 minutes ago, jade.black said:

Peter is disgusting. Like, I almost need to look away from the screen, I'm so grossed out by him. I can hardly even place what it is. Something about his boyish face mixed with him constantly having his hands on the girls' faces and in their hair, insisting on touching foreheads while he "talks" to them, and by talk I mean stare intensely at them while they're trying to express feelings and then interrupt them with a middle school makeout. I felt this way watching his amateur moves on Hannah's season (when he got on top of her in the sauna it looked like a freshman practicing his moves). I would cringe at the thought of him even touching me.

For me, it's all of this and his stupid WOOHOO-ing and his dumb rolling his arms in the air dad dancing. He cannot be off my tv screen soon enough.  

[nlkm9]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

^Lauren B never got over Ben sleeping with the other two and Ben admitted it. Shawn never got over it. Strung kaitlyn along but never was going to marry her according to kaitlyn. Knowing what little I do about Catherine Lowe and Cassie, I don’t think either of those women would’ve gotten over their men sleeping with others and there would be no bachelor couples together. 

Last I heard, he was dating a girl from his church. She looked similar to Madison too. I still wonder if Madison signed up for Colton. Would make more sense. If not, she just signed up for the platform. 

wait--I remmeber JoJo who was the 3rd he slept with? I remember it was such a big deal that he told 2 women he loved them. Noone remembered that in Andy Baldwins season he yelled "Devin I frikkin love you". I remember thinking that was crazy.  

[LuvMyShows]

So very interesting to read people's differing views.  One thing no one has brought up, is that he told Madison at dinner that he could see a future with her, but that he also felt that way about the other women.  I thought it took a lot of guts for him to say that, since he probably risked losing her by saying that.  He wanted her to know that he could see a future with her, but he didn't want to compound her turmoil by giving her a false impression about it. 

Unlike most people, I don't get a sense that she's a lock for F1 (unspoiled, just a feeling), so that's why he was willing to risk losing her by having sex with the other women.  If he had felt as strongly for her as Colton, Sean, et al did for their women, he wouldn't have slept with Hannah Ann and/or Victoria...but he didn't.  And if he does choose Madison, I think he needs to know that it wasn't because she gave him an ultimatum (no matter how it was worded), but that it's because he felt the strongest about her even in spite of having strong physical connections with the other women.

[kazza]

18 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

ETA: Thanks Rainsong for leading off with Peter not putting together "Wow, it's SOooooooooo cold out here" with giving her his jacket!! Way to read a signal Peter.

That should have been a red flag right there. Not saying that every guy who gives up his jacket is Prince Charming, but he's supposed to be at his best in this point in the relationship. If he's not figuring it out now, he's never going to. (By contrast, Jared gave a shivering Kaitlyn his jacket during his goodbye conversation.)

12 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

 Victoria  f saying “ i love him so much” she is a child and to her sex means love. 

For the first time this season, I actually felt bad for her. If it was genuine, it gave insight into her thought process. Or maybe she just wanted attention. 

26 minutes ago, nlkm9 said:

wait--I remmeber JoJo who was the 3rd he slept with? I remember it was such a big deal that he told 2 women he loved them. Noone remembered that in Andy Baldwins season he yelled "Devin I frikkin love you". I remember thinking that was crazy.  

It was Caila, of the gorgeous hair. She seemed like a sweet girl, too. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by kazza

[nlkm9]

19 minutes ago, kazza said:

That should have been a red flag right there. Not saying that every guy who gives up his jacket is Prince Charming, but he's supposed to be at his best in this point in the relationship. If he's not figuring it out now, he's never going to. (By contrast, Jared gave a shivering Kaitlyn his jacket during his goodbye conversation.)

For the first time this season, I actually felt bad for her. If it was genuine, it gave insight into her thought process. Or maybe she just wanted attention. 

It was Caila, of the gorgeous hair. She seemed like a sweet girl, too. 

oh the sex panther!! lol. she was gorgeous.

[Stats Queen]

8 hours ago, Cornhusker12 said:

The big difference was that Luke was an asshole all season and Hannah gave him chance after chance and disregarded warnings from other guys multiple times. He may have been "walking the walk" in terms of his born again virginity, but not in being a pious virtuous person. When he got all sanctimonious at the end it made Hannah realize how phony he was and how duped she had been. That's why it was different. Madison might be saying the same things, but she didn't have an entire season's worth of acting like a jerk leading up to that moment.

Luke was a controlling, scary person. He was like that even without the waiting til marriage for sex.

[nutty1]

WAIT? Ben slept with all 3 women?? How did I never know this??

And to whoever mentioned Andy Baldwin telling Bevin he loved her.....everyone watching was shocked. That was unheard of back then. Remember poor Bevin at the FRC? She never said a word.

I see nothing wrong with what Madi did/said. And I won't fault Peter for having sex with the others....it's a free world. I only wonder if he realized he may really lose Madi over it. I thought at the end last night, he seemed the most genuine I have seen him all season. 

[Lemons]

15 hours ago, econ07 said:

This has nothing to do with moral principles in the case of Madison.  If it did, she would want Peter to repent of the windmill episodes.  

I'm guessing it has everything to do with what any self-respecting person would want ... if somebody is seriously considering marrying you, you would not want them sleeping with others in the days or weeks leading up to your engagement.  If he wants to marry this person for life, why not do everything you can to get her.

And I think someone would if they sincerely loved someone. But none of them are in real love at this point.   A few lucky ones fell in love once they were chosen after the fact.  The word love is the most abused word on the show.  He didn’t love Madison, he loved the idea of having three attractive women after him.  

[call me ishmael]

9 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

 

I defended Luke as well.  He did some shady stuff early in the show but telling Hannah that if she slept with the other guys it would be a deal breaker for him was not one of them.  He had a right to his own standards just as Madison does.  People only thought Luke was slut-shaming Hannah because she said he was in her big shouty attempt to deflect and cast herself as some sort of feminist icon.

I think Luke and Madison were the most interesting people in their seasons.  In fact I would love to see more   diversity of religion, with more Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Buddhists, as well as  Evangelical Christians like Luke and Madison.  I'd also like to hear someone say if you're way into Nascar (or crafting, or gun collecting, or pet reptiles, or liver and onions, or Crossfit) that would be a deal breaker for me.

I have to disagree about Luke.  He continued to do frankly abusive things and as I recall refused to leave because he knew better.  I think that the difference between him and Madison, and i do think it is a big difference, is that she is clear a out what is better for her, whereas Luke insisted that he knew what was better for Hannah.  There is a whole different psychology at play there.

In terms of both-sides i wonder if part of the problem we have figuring out how to think about Madison is that we are so jaded about the show.  It may be possible that you go on TV to be on TV and still buy the nonsense the show is selling about finding true love as the goal.  Then if you throw in the fact that you are left isolated in the house being run like rats in a maze and you just get caught up in the supposed love object.  And since you don’t see yourself as a posee you think they aren’t either.

[EssieMay]

Even more than I don’t want you to sleep with other women mere days before we’re engaged, I do not want to be engaged to the sort of person who is capable of that. I don’t want a man who opts out of free whoopee because he doesn’t want me to be mad. I want a man who is so deeply into me that it doesn’t even cross his mind that it might be worth it to let little peter sneeze into a couple more crazy bitches just for fun. Soon enough there will be laundry to wash, bills to pay, and toilets to scrub. The totally obsessed with each other phase ends, and that’s cool because it’s replaced with something solid and sexy in a whole different way if you do it right. But if you’re not enough into me at this stage, when we’re supposed to be crazy gaga for each other, it doesn’t bode well for the future. I realize that The Bachelor and reality TV is not where that happens, but I totally get where Madi is coming from without any moral or religious themes. If you’re doing that shit, you are not into me that way that I want you to be so hope you enjoy the sneeze. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by EssieMay
Typo

[DEL901]

I always come back to one of my favourite couples, Ashley and JP.     After the proposal but before it aired and they could go public, they had those secret dates, but they also had dinner together via Skype every single night.  They talked and really got to know each other in a way they wouldn’t have otherwise, because they were physically apart and couldn’t be distracted my sex.   They were able to discover their connection was real.   
 

My point is that I can’t see Peter having this kind of relationship or connection with any of the F3, vapid, crazy and chaste.   He is no prize either.   He has no depth or maturity which shows with him choosing two 23 year olds and a 24 year old as his final  three.  

[SallyAlbright]

One thing I saw mentioned elsewhere that I did like is the fact that Madison never said a single bad thing about either of the other women, even when she was clearly upset with Peter. I imagine it would be really easy for her to feel all judgmental and catty towards Hannah Ann and Victoria, but she seems to have really made an effort to be friendly with them. That's rare on this show, so good on her.

[CrazyDog]

3 hours ago, Lemons said:

And I think someone would if they sincerely loved someone. But none of them are in real love at this point.   A few lucky ones fell in love once they were chosen after the fact.  The word love is the most abused word on the show.  He didn’t love Madison, he loved the idea of having three attractive women after him.  

Yup. And I don't think Madison is in love with him either. She *wants* to be in love, and get social media success, Hannah wants to come in first and get social media success, and Victoria just wants to watch the world burn. 

How many hours have these people really spent with each other? A day or two max?

It's all too Stockholm Syndrome-y.

3 hours ago, DEL901 said:

I always come back to one of my favourite couples, Ashley and JP.     After the proposal but before it aired and they could go public, they had those secret dates, but they also had dinner together via Skype every single night.  They talked and really got to know each other in a way they wouldn’t have otherwise, because they were physically apart and couldn’t be distracted my sex.   They were able to discover their connection was real.  

Definitely. It makes sense that true connections can happen after the show ends (I really like JP and Ashley too, and love their non-Hollywood life), but by the time the show proposal happens? Less likely.

[chocolatine]

I respect Madison's standards, but only if she actually leaves and stays gone after Peter's revelation. If she comes back, then obviously those standards are less important to her than staying on TV.

On 2/24/2020 at 6:01 PM, EllenB said:

Why the hell is Victoria singing instead of talking?  And was that previous relationship before, after, or during the time she was with the married guys? 

And, most importantly, how does Chase Rice fit into all of this???

18 hours ago, EllenB said:

When Hannah Anna Banana said "You're so skinny!" to Viper Victoria, and Viper Victoria replied "Thenkyow," I really wish Hannah Anna Banana would have said "Oh, it wasn't a compliment, I meant that you look like shit."

I was fully expecting Victoria to retort "that's because I burned a lot of calories last night" - if what the blurry-faced woman said about her is true, she enjoys rubbing her sexual conquests into other women's faces.

15 hours ago, galaxychaser said:

She should have put some Kleenex in her bra. Whip it out as needed.

I'm pretty sure she wasn't wearing a bra. That dress had deep side cutouts, so if she had been wearing a bra, it would have been visible. Her breasts had a perfect semi-spherical shape in the side view, a tell-tale sign of a boob job.

[Andromeda]

I'm in love.... None of the people on this show are, but that koala in the tree stole my heart! So sweet!

[Sweet-tea]

On 2/24/2020 at 8:40 PM, SallyAlbright said:

It makes me sad that Victoria and Hannah are so astonished by a woman putting Peter "on the spot" and "questioning him." 

You should be comfortable questioning a guy you could be engaged to in a week. I don't share Madison's beliefs, but I respect her for sticking to what is important to her. The fact that Victoria and Hannah seem willing to just do whatever he wants without challenging him concerns me. 

Me too. I found it refreshing to finally see a contestant not gleefully agree to the fantasy suite. I don’t really understand why she’s on this show, but I admire her for not backing down. She deserves someone better than Peter though. Let Hannah and Victoria fight over him.

Having said that, it was painful watching Madison and Peter’s conversation. Was it badly edited or was it that difficult for them to put sentences together?

[Wandering Snark]

3 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I'm in love.... None of the people on this show are, but that koala in the tree stole my heart! So sweet!

Hah, I was hearing the production meeting in my head "Okay, go out and get location shots you know the drill. Oh, and don't come back without kangaroo and especially Koala footage!!"

Quote

Having said that, it was painful watching Madison and Peter’s conversation. Was it badly edited or was it that difficult for them to put sentences together?

ETA: Madison has just been looking down and kind of mumbling and half saying what she means and then half correcting etc. she's been borderline intelligible really. She can't just put together a straight out sentence about anything emotional it seems.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Wandering Snark

[valen]

I think part of the difficulty having a conversation is that they are hyper aware of the cameras and they are bound by what they are and aren't supposed to say. If you say the wrong thing, then it is immortalized in a million different ways for people to replay forever. The pressure must be immense. 

[jumper sage]

17 hours ago, EssieMay said:

Has anybody said it yet? This Bachelor is just a f**k boy. Body of a man, emotional maturity of a thirteen year old boy, not even decent boyfriend material for at least another ten years. “Wait, what, you don’t want me to have sex with other girls? I’m so surprised. And that’s not really fair because, like, I really want to have sex with them. And like I really lovvvvve you.” At the final rose ceremony he asks F1 to go steady and presents his letter jacket.

He still lives at home.  Even if he is a co-pilot, why wouldn't he want his own place even if it's a small house/apartment?  Weird.

[dirtypop90]

12 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

I have to disagree about Luke.  He continued to do frankly abusive things and as I recall refused to leave because he knew better.  I think that the difference between him and Madison, and i do think it is a big difference, is that she is clear a out what is better for her, whereas Luke insisted that he knew what was better for Hannah.  There is a whole different psychology at play there.

In terms of both-sides i wonder if part of the problem we have figuring out how to think about Madison is that we are so jaded about the show.  It may be possible that you go on TV to be on TV and still buy the nonsense the show is selling about finding true love as the goal.  Then if you throw in the fact that you are left isolated in the house being run like rats in a maze and you just get caught up in the supposed love object.  And since you don’t see yourself as a posee you think they aren’t either.

Madison has the benefit of watching Luke P last year. She was being very careful with her words and not just saying what she felt because of the hate Luke got. She was almost putting forth her rebuttal to the Luke P haters I.e. “I’m not judging you” “there are just my standards.” I wonder if she would of put it that way if she didn’t know what happened to Luke last year. 
 

she was fumbling all over the place and unable to spit it out because she didn’t what the backlash if she said what she really thought

Edited February 26, 2020 by dirtypop90

[Cornhusker12]

15 hours ago, kazza said:

It was Caila, of the gorgeous hair. She seemed like a sweet girl, too. 

Oh yeah I remember her! I liked her in that season, didn't she get screwed out of being the Bachelorette at the time as well? I wonder if she'd still be interested now, considering the zero options I can possibly imagine from this season.....

[mishap]

Did I miss something?  I realize that Madison and Peter's conversation was  hard to follow with the tears and all the likes and I don't knows, but did she say if she was staying or leaving?   I thought she walked away.  So no need for a rose ceremony, because there are only 2 left?  I did see previews, but  I don't think we are supposed to talk about them, and they just left me more confused.  lol  

This show is garbage and if you try and tell anyone that I watch  I will deny it!  lol  

[Wandering Snark]

2 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

she was fumbling all over the place and unable to spit it out because she didn’t what the backlash if she said what she really thought

I think that's easy for us to say but it's giving her a little too much credit I think. We don't know for sure if she's watched last season or ANY season really. If she watched even then we don't know if she was aware of any social media and such with Luke P. Her being here on a seemingly ill-fitting show in the first place seems to point to her NOT knowing most likely.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Wandering Snark