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S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

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Veronica and Keith follow a new lead, and discover another victim. Matty follows her own instincts, landing herself dangerously close toa  killer. Veronica has a tragic epiphany as the clock is ticking. 

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I don't get it. 

Is RT still trying to prove fans wrong for liking Veronica and Logan together? Is this some kind of Whedonesque don't give fans what they want, give them what they need?

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I was prepared for this because a lot of the reviews basically spoiled it.  That final voice mail killed me. I'm going to have to sit with this for awhile.  I understand it's noir and I think it works for the story but I'm selfish and I don't want VM without Logan.

I thought this season was pretty good overall.  I wish there had been more Wallace but I loved all the Keith/Veronica

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Even though I never cared for Logan and liked Veronica's other BFs (Leo, Piz) more, I certainly did not want it to turn out this way. Damn. Condolences to all the LoVers out there.

I did love all the Daddy Mars/Veronica scenes, which are what I tune in for, and am glad he was OK in the end. I can certainly empathize with Keith re: the aging process!

All in all, better than the movie. Looking forward to another season.

Edited by Ms Lark
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Glad it was Logan and not Keith. 

Man, some of those old cast member were so old haha. Guess that's what happens when you cast 30-somethings to play teenagers way back when. I had to Google Image a few. Corny, Mercer, Hector, Tim, etc.

I dug the shorter season format and this was a good return to form. I hope there's another season as it feels like this season reset the game board for new storylines.

I remember being disappointed by Weevil's return to the PCHers as I really dug his redemption arc and trajectory and really wanted him to be a part of Mars Investigations, but his usage this season was fine.

I miss Mac but also don't because she was getting too 24 Chloe or "guy in the chair". I thought Max was going to fill that role once we saw him but that's okay that he didn't. I much rather prefer V and Keith doing most of the legwork.

Lastly, why didn't Leo and Logan recognize each other? Leo sold Logan the Lily tapes. Leo at the very least would not have forgotten anything Echols-related. Even Logan's past arrogance and forgetting the little people is pushing it.

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My immense fandom for this show has died down a lot over the years, so the ending didn't devastate me in a way that it would've at one time, but I am pretty pissed off at how completely half-assed it felt. I didn't feel like there was any weight to the death, it was just like...oh well, that's happened and she's okay. Which, I want her to be okay! It just would've been nice to not have it all pretty much wrapped up within a minute or two.

I did like the final scene with the voicemail narrating the drive, and..yeah. That's pretty much all I can say about it.

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2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

My immense fandom for this show has died down a lot over the years, so the ending didn't devastate me in a way that it would've at one time, but I am pretty pissed off at how completely half-assed it felt. I didn't feel like there was any weight to the death, it was just like...oh well, that's happened and she's okay. Which, I want her to be okay! It just would've been nice to not have it all pretty much wrapped up within a minute or two.

I did like the final scene with the voicemail narrating the drive, and..yeah. That's pretty much all I can say about it.

Yes. Even though Logan was probably my favorite character, I didn't necessarily need or expect a happy ending for him. A tragic ending can be satisfying. But for me, this was so half-assed and frankly, dumb, that it wasn't even satisfying.  

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I could have done without the schmaltzy wedding and let Logan and Veronica live in disfunctional peace, but way to fridge a dude for once. The ending has left me in a total funk though, which is disappointing because it was an otherwise fun season. 

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Never liked logan so I didn't mind the end. I am extremely relieved that Keith is ok. What I DON'T want is season five without Keith and Wallace. If KB is the only returning actor as RT had originally planned for season 4, I'm out.

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OK, I had convinced myself that Keith was going to die in the season finale, and was preparing myself for it, and then this completely blindsided me. I guess that my reaction is a bit unusual - I love Logan/Veronica, they were my first ship to ever become 'canon' in a show, but I somehow still loved this finale. I don't *like* that Veronica is devastated and Logan is gone, but if they plan to have future seasons this works. A happy, healthy Veronica is great, but less compelling than angry, messed up Veronica. This twist leaves her with a much longer road to walk to get to being okay. And, for whatever it's worth, I don't think she's there. She's putting up her walls and getting on with life the way she always has, but I don't think she's close to okay. And the not-okay isolated Veronica just feels so much more in keeping with the heart of the show than the happily ever after honeymoon Veronica. For me personally, even though I love LoVe, it was never the main thing that drew me to the show. And this season felt right up there with Season One for me.

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Well I just finished and now I can go swimming.

This seems to explain why Dohring sounded wistful a few times in the interviews! After the punch a hole in the wall scenes I’d hoped the relationship would be explored in an adult fashion. Then they dropped it and  I feared he was going to die as he kept on being presented as perfect in every way. They were saying goodby to him in Every episode after that. Then she decides to marry him and I’m not sure it is earned. Reaching towards the only thing she has left? But it seems to have been real.

At first I thought he’d walk away from her at the end, leaving an opening for more. But he died.

”don’t have children’ people kept on saying. Also a year later,  no possibility of her being pregnant. I guess she won’t now. Way to cut off the fan fic.

Honestly i thought the plot got convoluted. Was it Pen or not. Also finding the receipt at all seemed ridiculous. 

Keith has a VM 2.0 and a girlfriend. I guess the cane held him back. 

Edited by Affogato · Reason: Typo
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50 minutes ago, legxleg said:

This twist leaves her with a much longer road to walk to get to being okay. And, for whatever it's worth, I don't think she's there. She's putting up her walls and getting on with life the way she always has, but I don't think she's close to okay.

Yeah, "okay," was probably a bad choice of words. I'm sure she is still struggling, but that should be something that was actually shown to us. We got to see zero of the aftermath of Logan's death, none of her reaction to it - just a jump cut from her realizing it was going to happen to already being a year out and seemingly at least having learned how to cope. It's a disservice to Logan, a disservice to their relationship, and a disservice to Veronica as a character. It is something they could definitely delve into if there is an additional season, but if there isn't it's a crappy sendoff to Logan and to their relationship.

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43 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Yeah, "okay," was probably a bad choice of words. I'm sure she is still struggling, but that should be something that was actually shown to us. We got to see zero of the aftermath of Logan's death, none of her reaction to it - just a jump cut from her realizing it was going to happen to already being a year out and seemingly at least having learned how to cope. It's a disservice to Logan, a disservice to their relationship, and a disservice to Veronica as a character. It is something they could definitely delve into if there is an additional season, but if there isn't it's a crappy sendoff to Logan and to their relationship.

This makes more sense to me, thanks for clarifying! I agree that the flashforward isn't great. I thought that the season was going to end right after the explosion, and honestly I thought that would have been a better ending. For me, what I like about this is what it means for Veronica - in the past, she has dealt with grief by getting the bad guy, and in this case, she already got him. He's in jail. There's nothing she can actively do to deal with her pain, and seeing her work through that is interesting to me. My assumption is that if there's another season (which I'm hoping there will be, even if it's a few years down the road), then we'll see her going through that. But if I'm wrong and this flashforward is all we get of Veronica dealing with her grief then I agree, it's a really bad move. 

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7 minutes ago, legxleg said:

This makes more sense to me, thanks for clarifying! I agree that the flashforward isn't great. I thought that the season was going to end right after the explosion, and honestly I thought that would have been a better ending. For me, what I like about this is what it means for Veronica - in the past, she has dealt with grief by getting the bad guy, and in this case, she already got him. He's in jail. There's nothing she can actively do to deal with her pain, and seeing her work through that is interesting to me. My assumption is that if there's another season (which I'm hoping there will be, even if it's a few years down the road), then we'll see her going through that. But if I'm wrong and this flashforward is all we get of Veronica dealing with her grief then I agree, it's a really bad move. 

Logan’s storyline was the plotline you write when you don’t want to speak ill of the dead. So it was a pretty loving and respectful sendoff. 

I see Veronica as being really alone with herself. Her father is taken care of. Wallace is settled and we assume Mac has moved on. Her attempt to make a new friend failed. She leaves town. There is a lot to process.

Will they get another show without Logan? For a lot of people he was the main character. 

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13 minutes ago, legxleg said:

This makes more sense to me, thanks for clarifying! I agree that the flashforward isn't great. I thought that the season was going to end right after the explosion, and honestly I thought that would have been a better ending. For me, what I like about this is what it means for Veronica - in the past, she has dealt with grief by getting the bad guy, and in this case, she already got him. He's in jail. There's nothing she can actively do to deal with her pain, and seeing her work through that is interesting to me. My assumption is that if there's another season (which I'm hoping there will be, even if it's a few years down the road), then we'll see her going through that. But if I'm wrong and this flashforward is all we get of Veronica dealing with her grief then I agree, it's a really bad move. 

I agree with you there. 

The way it ended seemed to me like RT just wanted to rid himself of Neptune so he could propel Veronica forward into new places and new situations with new people. If there is an additional season I do expect Veronica's pain and the issues stemming from it to be addressed somehow, but probably not in a way that I would've liked or think the story/characters deserve. This felt like the closing chapter of a book that I would be very surprised to be really opened again (and I hope I'm wrong!). 

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1 hour ago, backhometome said:

What a big FU to fans. They dont even show her mourning for Logan just jumped a year ahead. What a shitty way to end his character.

Logan was always my fav.

But now KBell can be happy that she can get away from LoVe which she always wanted.

People are really angry so good luck with another season. 

Based on what Francis is telling fans they basically got rid of Logan because RT and KB really disliked how Logan/LoVe overpowered the show.

What's Francis telling the fans, and where?

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If that's true, it doesn't surprise me at all. I never got the impression that Kristen Bell was into the relationship as a whole, and Rob Thomas was clearly struggling to figure out what to do with it.

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28 minutes ago, General Days said:

What's Francis telling the fans, and where?

He is DM-ing fans on Twitter. I don't know what exactly he's telling them - I haven't seen any screenshots, but I have seen several comments about him allegedly telling a person/people that RT and KB didn't like Logan and LoVe overshadowing the show, and that's why Logan was killed off - maybe all coming from the same person? IDK.

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I've always hated "kill off half of a couple just when they finally get happy" twists. To me it's lazy writing. It's like Helen Fielding killing off Mark Darcy in Mad About the Boy because Bridget Jones must always be desperate and dateless until the very end of the story.

Edited by NeenerNeener
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He is DM-ing fans on Twitter. I don't know what exactly he's telling them - I haven't seen any screenshots, but I have seen several comments about him allegedly telling a person/people that RT and KB didn't like Logan and LoVe overshadowing the show, and that's why Logan was killed off - maybe all coming from the same person? IDK.

That seems weird to me since this is one of Francis Capra only acting jobs.  I would be surprised that he would burn bridges with RT that way. 

I also really don't think that's the case.  I think that may have been true a long time ago when the show was in its original run and I think maybe when they were younger KB and JD might have had some issues but I get the impression that since they are both now married and have kids that they really enjoy working with each other. 

I really think that RT thinks of this show as Noir and I may not agree but I suspect he just thinks this serves the story the best way.   

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4 minutes ago, Clare said:

That seems weird to me since this is one of Francis Capra only acting jobs.  I would be surprised that he would burn bridges with RT that way. 

Oh yeah, I don't necessarily think it's true - looking at his twitter convos I would be surprised if he was fueling bitterness through DMs, I was just explaining where that rumor started, because this isn't the only place I've seen it mentioned. 

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Fuck. 

I can't process this right now. 

The season was sooooooo good. Then that?

Fuck.

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9 hours ago, TwoBitUsherette said:

Pretty sure that's exactly what it is. On the Veronica Mars Instagram, there's an IG story that has the caption "So excited for you all to watch this season. It may not be the story you expect, but it's the story you need. We love you."

And it's that attitude that pisses me off more than what actually happens in the episode. It just feels so condescending.

Yep telling fans what they need is the ultimate condescension and irritating as hell and this is coming from someone who never shipped Veronica and Logan for one second.... 

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I've always kind of felt that Rob Thomas originally saw Duncan and Veronica as the show's epic romance and has always been somewhat bitter it didn't work out/the majority of the fandom didn't buy into it so this definitely feels like a fuck you. It's not even totally about being a LoVe fan for me, regardless of feelings toward Logan, it's another tragic loss for Veronica (with a side of probable guilt for the bomb being mostly meant for her) who was already fairly clearly not okay and I hate it.

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Great casting getting President Roslynn, Mary McDonnell as Logan's therapist. Just rewatched seasons 1-3 and had forgotten how many Battlestar Gallactica references there were. Even the "cuss" gag isn't totally new, they adopted "frack" from BSG and used it quite a bit.

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Well. That's going to be controversial.

I need to sit with it awhile, but I think I'm going to sit at the lonely table of liking the end. Or maybe satisfied is more accurate. It has nothing to do with disliking Logan. I admit I'm not the biggest fan of either character or actor - and I've felt since at least the third season that the LoVe relationship was played out - but if this had ended with Logan and Veronica happily married, I wouldn't have been mad about it.

But Veronica Mars is noir and happy endings don't happen in noir.

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I was very satisfied and impressed with the entire season. Veronica Mars has finally grown up. I actually never liked the CW Veronica Mars or movie much but watched to support a talented cast and cool concept.

Killing Logan was a gutsy and impressive move. It made sense with the story and didn't feel contrived at all since the set up for it was there. It will also obviously keep her growing as an independent heroine rather than settling into a suburban parent life like Wallace.

Leo was my favorite any way so thanks for the fantasy sex scene, RT. 

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Way to ruin my goodwill toward this season, show. 

I hate fridging. Just because it's a man being fridged doesn't change that. If they were worried LoVe was overtaking the show, they could have had them deal with their relationship issues or have Logan on a long-term deployment. 

It's a shame because I thought everything else was great. I thought this had a real classic VM vibe and the characterisation was good. I could have used a bit more Wallace and Weevil but hopefully next season. 

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4 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

I have no interest in a season 5 that has Veronica traveling over the country solving crimes. The show is Neptune. It's Veronica and her dad, and Wallace, Weevil, Vinnie, the Kanes, and any assortment of townies. And yes, it's Logan too. Or was.

4 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I think this is something that maybe isn't necessarily understood correctly by the powers that be. Yes, the show is about Veronica Mars, but it's not just Veronica that drives the story. I didn't particularly like Veronica in later seasons or in the movie, but I enjoyed watching her interact with all the others. That's what made the show for me. Those relationships were messy and worked to make Veronica palatable. Her cases were also mostly personal, which raised the stakes. Watching her wander around being a bitch to people without the heart behind it while she solves crimes with her brilliance is not interesting to me. 

I agree with this. I would not be interested in Veronica Mars outside Neptune without any of the old cast. I'm not a shipper, so I can imagine watching a season 5 without Logan. Or even without Keith if he had been killed off. Take away one or two of the significant characters and I could still watch. But take away all of those significant and less significant supporting characters and it's not Veronica Mars anymore.

I actually expected that they were planning for a fifth season to go back to the show's high school roots with the introduction of Matty and Keith's health problems. Basically Matty would be the new Veronica and Veronica would take Keith's role from the early seasons.

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12 minutes ago, paulvdb said:

I actually expected that they were planning for a fifth season to go back to the show's high school roots with the introduction of Matty and Keith's health problems. Basically Matty would be the new Veronica and Veronica would take Keith's role from the early seasons.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Matty got a YA book series or comic. 

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2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Way to ruin my goodwill toward this season, show. 

I hate fridging. Just because it's a man being fridged doesn't change that. If they were worried LoVe was overtaking the show, they could have had them deal with their relationship issues or have Logan on a long-term deployment. 

It's a shame because I thought everything else was great. I thought this had a real classic VM vibe and the characterisation was good. I could have used a bit more Wallace and Weevil but hopefully next season. 

RT basically said he wants to get away from Neptune. So Wallace and Weevil wont be in it if there is a season 5. Which is dumb because to me Neptune was half the appeal. 

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The way I see it, there are two sides to Veronica. The victim Veronica whose best friend was murdered and who was raped, and then there’s the self destructive Veronica who is her own worst enemy. Logan has always been the foil to self destructive Veronica, which is why I think he should have left her at the alter. By fridging him, he becomes another tally in the victim Veronica column, where the world is cruel to her, instead of her nature causing her world to implode. And that’s why I’m not really interested in a season 5  Veronica without catalysts like Logan, Keith, Wallace, and Weevil to engage different sides of her moral compass. 

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I watched the entire series for the first time this month so don’t have as much time invested as most. (I didn’t even realize there was a LoVe thing bc I didn’t want to be spoiled for the series, and the jerk teenage Logan was super fresh in my mind.) This definitely feels like a run-up to more episodic mysteries a la Murder She Wrote. If it were the end I think they’d give the characters the fairytale.

They did a nice job writing in so many of the old faces, but Keith will be the only one I miss. Neptune has gone squarely to the 09ers, so it’s like that character is dead. Wallace had no storyline other than show him settled. Weevil was more plot device than character. It might be nice to start fresh after the soap opera baggage: Venn diagram dating, affairs, murders, mortal enemies, other assorted scandals.

I enjoyed it overall but have no strong feelings about a season 5.

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1 hour ago, backhometome said:

RT basically said he wants to get away from Neptune. So Wallace and Weevil wont be in it if there is a season 5. Which is dumb because to me Neptune was half the appeal. 

This seems like a classic case of the creator not understanding the strengths of his own creation. It’s so bizarre to me - he created this world and these characters that people love so much! Why bother bringing it back if he’s not interested in it anymore? 

1 hour ago, General Days said:

I can see the argument for killing off Logan. If they wanted to continue a Veronica Mars series without Veronica tied to her young love, and insisted upon killing him off, they should have had this revival season be about who killed Logan Echolls. He could have been in flashbacks. Their relationship could have developed/unfolded the same way. He could have been the Lily Kane of this season and of Veronica's adult life.

This is a much more interesting idea than what they actually did, and would have given his death the narrative weight it deserved and created an avenue for Veronica to really explore her regrets and self-destructive choices. Instead, his death was treated like a tack on to the end of the season and an excuse to reboot the show with a Veronica defined by her isolation and “toughness.”

37 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

The way I see it, there are two sides to Veronica. The victim Veronica whose best friend was murdered and who was raped, and then there’s the self destructive Veronica who is her own worst enemy. Logan has always been the foil to self destructive Veronica, which is why I think he should have left her at the alter. By fridging him, he becomes another tally in the victim Veronica column, where the world is cruel to her, instead of her nature causing her world to implode. And that’s why I’m not really interested in a season 5  Veronica without catalysts like Logan, Keith, Wallace, and Weevil to engage different sides of her moral compass. 

Well said. The end of the season undermined the entire arc they seemed to be laying out about Veronica having agency in her life and refusing to use it to break away from her victimization. Now she’s just a victim again, her cynicism justified by external circumstances, giving her more excuses not to grow. 

Edited by stagmania
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2 hours ago, General Days said:

I can see the argument for killing off Logan. If they wanted to continue a Veronica Mars series without Veronica tied to her young love, and insisted upon killing him off, they should have had this revival season be about who killed Logan Echolls. He could have been in flashbacks. Their relationship could have developed/unfolded the same way. He could have been the Lily Kane of this season and of Veronica's adult life.

Oh man, I love Logan, but this is the way they should have gone. I would have been sad, but it would have been so much more interesting than what they did and a much more fitting end for such a major character and relationship. 

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4 hours ago, General Days said:

I still do like Veronica, warts and all. Always have.

I can see the argument for killing off Logan. If they wanted to continue a Veronica Mars series without Veronica tied to her young love, and insisted upon killing him off, they should have had this revival season be about who killed Logan Echolls. He could have been in flashbacks. Their relationship could have developed/unfolded the same way. He could have been the Lily Kane of this season and of Veronica's adult life.

Whether Rob likes it or not, Logan became a big part of the story, and a big part of the appeal of this show. If he "had" to die (I disagree that he did, I think there were a ton of ways to more or less part Veronica and Logan, like his military service) his death should have been the one that mattered, not an aftershock.

It's this kind of decision that reminds me why the show never made it past season 3 in its original run. It's sad to me. VM will remain one of my favorite shows, but this changed something in me. It gave me the kind of closure I don't think either Rob Thomas or Kristen Bell wanted me to have.

I honestly would've liked that better. I would rather they didn't kill him off at all but if they were going to, this would've been a way better way to do it. Also time skipping literally right after is just cheap.

I don't have much interest in watching Veronica Mars solve crime by herself. I loved the show as a whole. That's what gave the show its charm. Not Veronica Mars the character herself. So if that's the case if they do more in the future, this is the end of the road for me.

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On 7/20/2019 at 3:26 AM, General Days said:

Is this some kind of Whedonesque don't give fans what they want, give them what they need?

That is exactly the term that came to mind, in that the ending appeared to 1. push back on fans for liking a pairing/character more than TPTB thought they should 2. try to prove to critics that TPTB are "tough" and "don't do fan service" (especially as that was a criticism of the movie) and 3. conflate depressing with profound.  Disappointing, a real lost opportunity.  Sorry to flounce, but... although I don't think anything can retroactively kill my love of the show (seasons 1-2 are near perfect), I won't be returning to S4 again nor do I have any interest now in a S5. 

All in all, I blame Beaver - it was actually Beaver who wrote the final episode, in a Rob Thomas suit (old timey TWOP shout-out). 

Edited by Regalbegal · Reason: Typo!
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