S08.E05: The Bells

[Bali]

At least Arya survived.

[rozen]

7 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I didn’t see Dany as going mad.  If you saw basically two of your children murdered in front of you, would you be all, “okay, it’s all good?”

But I ask again, how would you have changed the episode?

Pretty much. They took an ounce of flesh, she demanded a pound in return. Ringing some bells after roasting a few crossbows was never going to be enough. Not for Dany, not for Grey Worm, and not even, apparently, for Drogon. His animation was *salty* when he swaggered forward to roast Varys.

This is literally a case of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone was so worried about Dany maybe going crazy that they actively went out of their way to undermine her, playing right into her paranoia. Jon is apparently the only person on earth that realized what she needed were people who loved and respected her. Tyrion & Varys are like the wire moms researchers put baby monkeys with to see if nature or nurture were more important. Dany literally had no chance to thrive under these two idiots' care, because she was never either's first priority.

All the people who prioritized her have sacrificed themselves for her cause, the rest sat back, drank wine, and were like "yea, but maybe, eventually, she'll be crazy. I dunno man, you know how women are."

Edited May 13, 2019 by rozen

[chrisvee]

my god what did I just see?

[Brn2bwild]

23 hours ago, Fallacy said:

This is some shit. I really thought Dany was going to stop once Cersei’s army surrendered, but nope, she burned the entire city because....why exactly?!? I get that the Targeryans were one screwed up dynasty, so this story wasn’t about returning the last member of that crazy ass family back to the throne. But then the show needed do a much much better job of developing Dany’s descent into full mad queen. Man I’m pissed. 

Did anyone even bother to explain to Dany beforehand that the bells being rung meant surrender?!  Tyrion seemed to mention it to everyone else except her.

ETA: Since this post, numerous people told me he did tell Dany.  I guess I was so numb after this episode, I forgot.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Brn2bwild

[hypnotoad]

Quote

I'm so mad I don't even know where to begin right now. This is not the show I've watched for eight years. Is Dany so insane that she would burn children? That's not the character we've seen.

Well of course ... the woman who freed slaves would naturally suddenly and with no reason kill everyone in sight. Dany has certainly been ruthless at different points, but she's also been fair and strong. Now? She's insane! In 2 episodes!

I know I posted in the live chat that in war civilians die ... I don't believe Cersei would have given up even with the bells ringing but Kings Landing certainly didn't deserve all that. I take my original post back. I think I just went slightly insane like Dany ... well she's full on mad but I felt the effects for a brief moment and typed without thinking.

I seriously have no idea what I just watched. Now I'm supposed to believe Dany is a worse person than Cersei?!? Cersei who got a tragic, romantic end??? All of Jamie's progress? Gone. Jon did nothing.

WTF has happened to this show? I am so pissed.

[kieyra]

Just now, Brn2bwild said:

Did anyone even bother to explain to Dany beforehand that the bells being rung meant surrender?!

Yes, and she acknowledged it. Then reneged.

[arachne]

"Nothing else matters." Great, now that Metallica song will be in my head all night. 

[Johnny Dollar]

This was like torture porn. I could’ve done with a little less kids in peril. Benioff and Weiss are sick, sadistic mother fuckers. And Jon Snow is a useless weasel and the most overrated and disappointing character in the history of television, regardless of what he does next week. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Johnny Dollar

[tennisgurl]

So, what exactly has been the point of Jaimie having years of development and wanting to be a better person and getting with Brienne and all that stuff if he was just going to die the same person and in the same place he started in? What was the POINT?! 

Dany...I dont even know. I could buy her slowly descending into madness, but its all happened so fast, like it was a choice they just randomly made a few episodes ago and went "ummm do lots of stuff to upset Dany and then let her go crazy! Seems like a cool idea!" instead of it happening naturally. It just feels so bizarre that after all these years of cheering Dany on to rise up against her evil brother, the monstrous systems she sought to destroy, that it would just end with her becoming a bad guy in the final stretch, and probably dying after becoming like her evil father. What the fuck is the point of that? 

I guess my great problem is that so many of these ends dont seem natural to the characters, they just seem half assed and stupid, like the person who wrote this episode had never actually just seen the show, and just heard about it through some drunk guy trying to give a summary in a bar. 

Cersei deserved a more fitting ending. Yeah the show has never wanted to give people exactly what they wanted, but give us SOMETHING for one of the main villains of the whole series! There should have been a line five ways across the kingdoms waiting to stab her!

There were some good moments. The last scene between Tyrion and Jaimie got me tearing up, and the end of the brothers Clegane was suitably epic and badass. But most of it was just...why?

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

Did anyone even bother to explain to Dany beforehand that the bells being rung meant surrender?!  Tyrion seemed to mention it to everyone else except her.

No because that would make sense and the Dany we knew for 8 seasons would have stopped torching women and children. But you know D&D wanted not just to burn KL to the ground, they also wanted to burn Dany's character to ashes.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I loved the episode because in reality people don’t act the way you want them to.  

I’ve worked with people who’ve done 180s because bad shit happened to them, so I know it happens 8n real life, so this episode didn’t bother me at all.

I am curious for all who hated it, what would you have preferred?

If Dany was going to turn, I would have preferred some sort of halfway believable motivation.

If she torched the whole city immediately after Missandei was murdered it would have been at least a bit less unbelievable and out of character.  Same goes for if she was losing this battle and thought she needed to do it to win.

But, she has never slaughtered totally innocent people for no reason.  I would have been a stretch even for Cersei to do what Dany did to the innocents.

Horrible writing, that had to be intentionally horrible.  D&D decided to torch the whole series for no reason, and did it by having Dany torch KL for no reason.

[Chaos Theory]

Called Dany not stopping after the bells rang.   Still when it happened took me a second....

Am I the only one who got a little misty eyed at the Cersei and Jamie stuff?  

Did Arya call for an Uber?  

Edited May 13, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[jmnf19]

8 minutes ago, Popples said:

One more episode, then the documentary the week after that.

Thank you.

[Leroux]

13 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I did not even understand it.... stupid me. Was Tyrion a traitor? Was he trying to have Jamie orchestrate a false surrender? Is that why Cersei looked so smug at first? 

Did I say I am confused? 

And why was Varys killed? Because he spilled the beans about Jon? 

Tyrion wanted Jaime to convince Cersei to surrender and ring the bells so there would be no attack. His mission was to get to Cersei and have her run away with him. 

Tyrion obviously thought that Daenerys would honor her word about stopping an attack if there was a surrender. She never did. So much for demanding people to give her word of honor, her word is worth shit. 

Varys was killed because he knew about Jon's birth and was trying to spread the news. It won't be only him. Next, it will be Tyrion for releasing Jaime, Then it will be Sansa for telling Tyrion,  heck why stop there she probably will get Bran and Sam to be on the safe side. If it comes down to it she will kill Jon too. 

Nobody gets in between Daenerys and her throne, nobody! 

[Stardancer Supreme]

16 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany's reputation as a fearless and ruthless but ultimately humane queen ruined by her torching a city AFTER THEY SURRENDERED. And she torches innocent women and children yet doesn't torch Cersei who's standing out in the open on a balcony. WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT???

That's what I was bothered about as well.  There was no need to torch the entire city. The woman you wanted to kill was in the big red building over there! 

All that handwringing about the Dothraki and apparently enough of them survived to sack King's Landing. 

I'm going until the end. I just have to see how the story ends. 

[mojoween]

I’m so sad that after all that, The Hound died in fire.  I hope he was unconscious well before he hit the ground.

[Neurochick]

I don’t think Dany was mad either.  I agree with the poster who said it’s insulting to call her mad.

Dany was hurt, angry, fucking pissed off.  She saw her child, her dragon killed, her most trusted confidant, friend, brutally murdered in front of her. 

Who would be all love and light after all that shit.

Remember the last word of episode 4, Dracarus indeed.

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, Scaeva said:

'd be willing to bet that Mad Queen Dany is 100% Martin, but the show didn't really do a good job of selling her pivot toward villainy. Maybe it is a consequence of the short season.

I did not see Mad Queen.  I saw someone that was determined to make them pay.  She was angry.  She was not mad.  I bet anything that next episode she is all smiles.  And the next time someone doesn’t do exactly what she wants, exactly when she wants it, and exactly how she wants it ... dracarys.

Tyrion was already afraid of her, Sansa saw it.  Now Jon is afraid of her.  This is not going to end well.

[Jewlmc]

6 minutes ago, Leroux said:

There is no character assassination at all. 

Daenerys has said since her first season that she will get the Iron Throne with Fire and Blood, that she will burn cities to the ground to get what was stolen from her.

This is what Fire and Blood look like, this is what a city burned to the ground means. 

She has never lied, she just did what she said she was going to do. 

She also said she didnt want to be queen of the ashes..ect...so please.

[JunebugWA]

The way they assassinated Dany's character is unparalleled. I have never seen a TV character took a downward spiral that fast. Seriously, it has been insulting. I like Dany for all of her faults but to turn her completely insane like this is INSANE - on the writers' parts. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by JunebugWA

[Drogo]

You couldn't just make out with your hot aunt, Jon Snow? 

Motherfucker...

[ShellsandCheese]

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

Did anyone even bother to explain to Dany beforehand that the bells being rung meant surrender?!

Tyrion did in a very exaggerated way, I knew at that moment, she was going to totally disregard the bells and reign down fire and blood. The best part of the episode was Drogon coming out of the shadows to dispatch of Varys. 

Also, Jon's a pussy. I've never seen a show ruin all of their main characters in such a short period of time: Jaime, Tyrion, Dany, Jon; and don't get me started on the secondary characters such as Grey Worm, Varys, et al Unbelievable. 

[WatchrTina]

42 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Jon Snow being a total spineless bitch who stands around looking confused. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Oh I have to disagree with that.  Jon tried stopping the fight but once it was started it was beyond his control.  Once Dany started lighting the place up (despite the bells ringing and the Lanister soldiers throwing down their swords) it was clear to those soldiers that surrender was not an option and they had no choice but to fight to the death.  Jon tried to prevent that but in that fog of war, there was nothing he could do. What a horrible situation to be put in.

Fuck Daneryes (however you spell it).  She snatched a massacre from the jaws of victory.

Edited May 13, 2019 by WatchrTina

[stagmania]

3 minutes ago, voiceover said:

I know I might be the only member of this club, but I took no joy in CleganeBowl.  Just another example of a blown character arc.

You’re not alone. Disappointingly executed like most things this season.

The only nice thing I have to say about this episode is for Emilia Clarke. She did her damndest to sell the shit material she was handed. I hope she wins an Emmy for the pain. 

[Andromeda]

22 minutes ago, Popples said:

I was really hoping he would stab or choke her or something when they were in the map room.

Seriously. 

Production values were great, music as always is great. Arya had a nice storyline, except she didn't get to use her faces and kill Cersei.

CRAPPY way for Cersei to go out, all weak and whiny and pregnant and clingy. I wanted her pregnancy to be a fake, and for her to blow up the city in true Lannister fashion, showing how she only cared about herself. Not this mewling bore. And why does she earn dying in the arms of her lover? And why did Jamie forget she wanted to have him killed last episode? Damn, I was hoping he'd take her out!

Dany... My Dany would never do that to innocent people. Who is that woman on the dragon? Why is she burning her own city into ashes? Oh, because people (without cause) worried she would. Oh. Too bad, women apparently can't handle power. (SMH)

Ugh on all the bell talk. Anvils falling!!

And Greyworm? What did they teach him in soldier school?

Wow, Missandei is the most important character plot device of the entire story.

Why, why why did Tyrion want to rescue CERSEI, who has had a hit out on him for years?! How stupid is he, trusting her so many times and now trying to save her? Where did his brain go?

Edited May 13, 2019 by Andromeda

[GodsBeloved]

14 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I liked it - though I found Dany's sudden tactical skills against the fleet and dragon spears a little hard to buy.

I gave her credit for learning from her mistakes.

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, mojoween said:

I’m so sad that after all that, The Hound died in fire.

Death by fire is the purest death. 

[Neurochick]

Just now, QuinnM said:

I did not see Mad Queen.  I saw someone that was determined to make them pay.  She was angry.  She was not mad.  I bet anything that next episode she is all smiles.  And the next time someone doesn’t do exactly what she wants, exactly when she wants it, and exactly how she wants it ... dracarys.

Tyrion was already afraid of her, Sansa saw it.  Now Jon is afraid of her.  This is not going to end well.

Thank you for this comment.  I was afraid I was mad for actually liking this episode.  

[ferjy]

11 minutes ago, Popples said:

One more episode, then the documentary the week after that.

I wonder if they can redeem themselves next week.

[Drogo]

I know the acting is good when I'm rooting for a brother and sister to get to Essos and raise their baby in relative peace and anonymity. 

[magpye29]

I had to open all my windows to get the stink of this episode out of my living room!

Why couldn’t Dany have ridden like this two episodes ago when Rhaegal was still alive? Oh right, because D&D wanted Dany to be the mad queen.  So stupid.

So now what I’m hoping for is that

Spoiler

Dany sentences Tyrion to death and tells Drogon “dracarys “ but he doesn’t burn and it turns out he’s a secret Targaryen and he takes the Iron Throne and makes Jon/Aegon his Hand

Then maybe I won’t be so pissed about this farce of an episode.

[Popples]

 

 

1

2 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

CRAPPY way for Cersei to go out, all weak and whiny and pregnant and clingy. I wanted her pregnancy to be a fake, and for her to blow up the city in true Lannister fashion, showing how she only cared about herself.

I always thought it would end up being menopause.

[Lady Iris]

23 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Kuddos to the actors who did their best to sell this. Tyrion saying goodbye to Jaimie was probably the best scene of the episode - and no CGI was required.

This and Arya’s last moments with  Clegane really got me. When he wrapped his hand around the back of her neck, it was done with as much affection that a man like him could show. Arya looked like an innocent little girl, her face as she looked up to him was amazing. This will go down as one of my all time favorite scenes. You went out like a hero Sandor. You got your vengeance and saved the world from that monster. You were truly a magnificent bastard of the highest caliber. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Lady Iris

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

I gave her credit for learning from her mistakes.

Totes agree.  She drew the fire of the scorpion, evaded the spear and then took out the device while it was realoading.

Cersei really overestimated her position.

[nodorothyparker]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

So, what exactly has been the point of Jaimie having years of development and wanting to be a better person and getting with Brienne and all that stuff if he was just going to die the same person and in the same place he started in? What was the POINT?! 

I'm particularly pissed on this point myself.  In one fell swoop the show basically told us all that growth and trying to be better and figure out who he was beyond part of the collective Lannisters never mattered a lick.  We never got a single clue about his motivations.  Just that he died exactly where he started.  

After the absolute horror show that Cersei has been, I shouldn't be coming out of this episode feeling like she was the lesser of the two evils in the queen sweepstakes.  But here we are.

[Drogo]

Kings Landing was a shithole anyway.

Yeah, I said it. 

[kieyra]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, what exactly has been the point of Jaimie having years of development and wanting to be a better person and getting with Brienne and all that stuff if he was just going to die the same person and in the same place he started in? What was the POINT?! 

Dany...I dont even know. I could buy her slowly descending into madness, but its all happened so fast, like it was a choice they just randomly made a few episodes ago and went "ummm do lots of stuff to upset Dany and then let her go crazy! Seems like a cool idea!" instead of it happening naturally. It just feels so bizarre that after all these years of cheering Dany on to rise up against her evil brother, the monstrous systems she sought to destroy, that it would just end with her becoming a bad guy in the final stretch, and probably dying after becoming like her evil father. What the fuck is the point of that? 

I guess my great problem is that so many of these ends dont seem natural to the characters, they just seem half assed and stupid, like the person who wrote this episode had never actually just seen the show, and just heard about it through some drunk guy trying to give a summary in a bar. 

Cersei deserved a more fitting ending. Yeah the show has never wanted to give people exactly what they wanted, but give us SOMETHING for one of the main villains of the whole series! There should have been a line five ways across the kingdoms waiting to stab her!

There were some good moments. The last scene between Tyrion and Jaimie got me tearing up, and the end of the brothers Clegane was suitably epic and badass. But most of it was just...why?

Yep. That arc was supposed to end with Jamie realizing that Cersei had come close to allowing all life to be extinguished, and that she was batshit crazy (like more wildfire planted around the city), and finally kill her himself before he bled out. 

But I guess we were supposed to feel bad for them at the end because now Dany is the Big Bad, and Jon is the sane, just, male ruler we all deserve. 

[Lemuria]

7 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I didn't understand that either and Daenarys let off with "Jon betrayed me".

Because (1) he was actively working to dethrone her and put someone else in her place; (2) the conversation with the "little bird" suggested he was also trying to poison her; and (3) he had promised her that if he ever had a problem with her, he would look her in the eye and tell her.  He didn't.

She promised that if he ever betrayed her, she would burn him to ashes.

She did.

[UNOSEZ]

12 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I didn’t see Dany as going mad.  If you saw basically two of your children murdered in front of you, would you be all, “okay, it’s all good?”

But I ask again, how would you have changed the episode?

Lotto Dany fans are going nuts.. To me this seems like the response I was expecting... Its almost like she was there and had the win And said... No.. You haven't suffered enough / If no one here will love me then they will fear me... Which is exactly what she said when Jon refused to give up the D...  Of course her previous flambe victims were slavers  ( maybe some not all)  and rapists ( not to be confused with the former murdering rapist dothraki she had as her own.. Different dothraki)  so folks didn't mind.. 

[Paws]

Just now, Drogo said:

Kings Landing was a shithole anyway.

Yeah, I said it. 

Seriously. “Bowl of Brown “ is their specialty.

[LuvScottishAccents]

3 minutes ago, stagmania said:

You’re not alone. Disappointingly executed like most things this season.

The only nice thing I have to say about this episode is for Emilia Clarke. She did her damndest to sell the shit material she was handed. I hope she wins an Emmy for the pain. 

No wonder she said when she read the final script, she had to go out for a long walk. I can’t imagine how she must have felt seeing her character completely trashed.

[Ocean Chick]

15 minutes ago, Lillith said:

The Unsullied, the most disciplined soldiers ever massacre soldiers who've surrendered? 

But remember that the last act an Unsullied commits before becoming an Unsullied is to take a baby from his/her slave mother’s arms and kill them. As long as Grey Worm said to kill them, they’ll kill them. And Grey Worm was leading the attack. 

[Binns]

9 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

I'd be willing to bet that Mad Queen Dany is 100% Martin, but the show didn't really do a good job of selling her pivot toward villainy. Maybe it is a consequence of the short season.

I mean, apparently he told D&D how the story ends. But they did a shit job of showing her becoming this person. It made zero sense. 

[Yodabeesh]

How in the hell has Dany NOT killed Tyrion yet? He gives the worst advice, goes behind her back, and disobeys her.

[Drogo]

She heard the bells and realized this was likely another of Tyrion's "mistakes."

So she followed Missandei's advice instead.  A brilliant woman who never misled her.  Dracarys, indeed. 

I'm not mad at Daenerys.  Fuck Kings Landing. 

[BooBear]

That was TERRIBLE. I thought the spoilers was bad but that was worse.

Shall we begin

- I could not see Dany at all, at all, during her initial sack of kings landing and the iron fleet. How lazy. I mean they didn't even bother to give me some shots of her on the dragon. 

- I am disgusted that they humanized Cersi at the end. D&D do you not remember last week he beheaded an innocent just for fun? Never mine how many people she has killed.

- I am most disappointed about how they portrayed Dani. There was just no reason to keep firing on Kings Landing and that is NOT in character for 7 freaking seasons. She just wouldn't do that no matter how upset she was. But I know D&D mean us to think she would. Personally, in this show I think Dany could be given a pass. She tried so many times to avoid this situation and it only got her personal losses. Enough. It could NOT be avoided. But I know the show won't see it that way. I blame Cersie.

- Speaking of, I always love that Cersie thinks she is smarter than she is but MAN did she lose badly. My god... the golden company ... what a joke?

- I want Tyrion tried for treason. He was blatantly treasonous before he let his brother go. 

- I kind of what Sansa tried for treason. Dany is absolutely right that Sansa was trying to usurp her and that she is as much as to blame and Verys. But I blame D&D for setting up this dynamic in the first place. There was NO reason for Sansa to hate Dany or really even care.  Plus guess Sansa learned nothing from the game of thrones. 

- I could cared less about Sandor and his brother. Again another backslip in character. He didn't need his brother anymore, he had friends in the north.  And did the hound actually do anything that Dany wouldn't have done?

Arya was useless but she was there to make us feel bad for the citizens of Kings Landing.  I am Jon will kill Dany next week because Arya will want her dead and I am sure Dany will want Sansa dead. Sansa is a clear and present threat to her reign and always will be. So, for that matter, is Arya and Bran. 

[QuinnM]

9 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Thank you for this comment.  I was afraid I was mad for actually liking this episode.  

Here’s the thing.  After 8 seasons of this I just close the room darkening shades, turn up the sound to ‘11’, pour some wine and enjoy myself.   I grew up on network tv only.  That I can sit in my home and see this level of acting, score, cinematography is a friggin miracle to me.  Let’s hear it for the cinematographer with the Arya/horse scene.  Absolutely beautiful.

People complaining should be forced to live through 1980 with 3/4 network channels on crap TVs, with rerun’s ALL SUMMER.  You’d love GoT.

Edited May 13, 2019 by QuinnM

[staphdude]

27 minutes ago, Jewlmc said:

Except for it coming about due to extremely poor writing.

I’ll take it.

[screamin]

31 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I didn’t see Dany as going mad.  If you saw basically two of your children murdered in front of you, would you be all, “okay, it’s all good?”

But I ask again, how would you have changed the episode?

Myself, I would've  just had her attack the Red Keep alone after the bells rang - the fixation to get at Cersei overriding all else; the impulse would've been understandable for the Dany we know; the death of the commoners sheltered in the Keep alone would've been horror enough. Her leisurely sweeps over the city before attacking the Red Keep - as if she were watering a lawn - made no sense with the Dany we've known all along.

To have the woman who gratuitously torched the entire city make sense - you can't just change this episode to make it plausible. You'd have to seed the entire series with hints that she had this in her. I don't think there were quite enough of them.

Edited May 13, 2019 by screamin

[AlliMo]

I liked it fine. Martin always said he based the books on the 100 years war and the horrors that the ordinary people suffered. Everybody is flawed, there are no heroes, and I'm fine with Cersei going out the way she did. I didn't need the satisfaction of her getting some dramatic death. I actually liked that she went out the way she did, crushed by her own hubris, just like so many of the subjects she never cared about.