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S05.E12: The Beginning...

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SERIES FINALE!

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The series flash-forwards 10 years into the future as Bruce is set to return to Gotham for the opening of the new Wayne Tower. A series of crimes leads Gordon to believe Penguin and the Riddler are up to their old tricks. However, when Bullock is framed for a murder, Gordon begins to piece together an even more sinister plot targeting the city, and a new figure emerges from the shadows to be the hero Gotham desperately needs.

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Original air date: 4/25/19

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7 hours ago, Gobi said:

So is a different actor going to play Bruce Wayne? 

David Mazouz will be doing the voice and close-up shots while a bigger guy does the action.

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Saved the best for last imo. By far my favorite episode of the season. It went by so fast :'(. A pretty good series finale. Glad to see it end on a strong note.

We've finally come full circle.

I'm gonna miss this show.

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The close up of Batman (and the voice) who was obviously not David ruined this for me. They should have stuck with a long shot. However, I am pleased that Barbara made it out alive. You just know they were itching to kill her and hand over Barbara Lee to James and Lee. Frankly, that they were still married was unbelievable.

Edited by SimoneS
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Man, I'm not really sure how I felt about that. For starters, it should have been a two episode finale. They tried to cram an awful lot into 40+ minutes and I'm not sure it worked. Still, I think they pulled off the Selena switch pretty well, and the villains were first class...as always.

This one definitely warrants a rewatch.

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Best episode of the season. Too bad Camren Bicondova wasn't allowed to be Selina for the last episode. I can understand why the change was made though....

Edited by WritinMan · Reason: Changed stuff!
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Farewell, sweet Gotham. May the bar you set be scaled with the utmost determination from the next Batman franchise. Would Pennyworth count? I wouldn't think who, because you wouldn't expect the batshit . . . and I can't think of English characters from DC Comics that would lean hard into the crazy curve.

At least we got a happy epilogue, or at least as happy as one can be in Gotham City. Yeah, Barbara took a slug and Babs Jr. (can girls be "juniors"?) got her first traumatic experience . . . but the good guys won, Bruce Wayne is back in Gotham, and the beleaguered city gets the hero they've needed. Even after Reunification and the two bigger pains in the ass getting imprisoned, it couldn't have been a smooth decade. For God's sake, they made Bing Bong their mayor again, and that guy was the absolute worst.

And we get the most fitting ending for Oswald and Edward . . . two men who could be powerful, commanding and hapless at the same time. They escape the paddywagon and aim to take on the man dressed as a bat . . . but then they see him jump rooftops, and they elect to start the next day.

Dang, did they copy and paste Camran's hair onto Selina 2.0's head?

Seriously, though, was there anything Batman-related in the post-Nolan/DCEU era that could touch Gotham? I know, sounds myopic AF, but that's how I feel. This series was entertaining as hell, and unlike some shows (looking directly at you, Smallville), it's leaving at the right time. It will be missed.

PS: If you need a substitute genre show with insanity . . . off the top of my head, there's Legends of Tomorrow (easily the most entertaining Arrowverse show), Happy! and Preacher (final season coming soon). And I don't do subscription TV, but I've heard great stuff about Doom Patrol, and The Boys also looks to be violently fun.

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I'm curious, they could never bring themselves to call Jerome the Joker. Is it possible that they didn't have permission to use the Joker name? I can't imagine why not, just seems odd.

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I kind of loved it. And I didn’t realize how sad I would be now that it’s over. To be completely honest, I only started to watch this show because of Ben McKenzie (been in love with him since his Ryan Atwood days lol) but I quickly fell in love with the whole crazy show. It will be greatly missed. 

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It's amusing (and logical) that in the end Oswald and Ed finally evolved into versions of Penguin and Riddler that were so close to the comic book and 60s TV show incarnations.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

The close up of Batman (and the voice) who was obviously not David ruined this for me. They have stuck with a long shot.

I thought that the face might have been a manipulated version of DM's to make it look older and bulkier; but it's difficult to be definitive based on only a third of a face being visible.

It that was his voice, it was tweaked beyond recognitiion, much like they did in the movies.

Edited by Florinaldo
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16 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I'm curious, they could never bring themselves to call Jerome the Joker. Is it possible that they didn't have permission to use the Joker name? I can't imagine why not, just seems odd.

DC would not give them permission to say Joker or use the Joker's green hair. 

I knew watching this would be like watching a pilot for a show that we will never see. I want to continue watching that show. I really wanted to see Bruce interact with at least Gordon and Selina. They reacast Selina they could've recast Bruce. 

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Another thing, the editing was dreadful. They were cutting and rejoining in scenes constantly. Guess, they didn't have enough money left over in the budget for reshoots.

Edited by SimoneS
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Would this Bruce even be able to have his playboy persona since most of his friends and enemies know he's in love with Selina.

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As I expected it'd be, it felt more like a pilot episode of a sequel show we won't see.  If I could make one wish for a TV show though it'd be a sequel show with the cast we've come to know and love these past few years.

This ride has had some bumps along the way but I'm sad it's over.

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37 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Would this Bruce even be able to have his playboy persona since most of his friends and enemies know he's in love with Selina.

He could do "billionaire asshole", but yeah, the playboy thing wouldn't work unless he had a pretty public breakup with her which probably wouldn't happen.

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For an individual hour...this was a pretty good. Engaging, exciting...for a pilot, it did pretty well.

As the Gotham finale...well, I feel the same as last week. This felt like the cap to a much better show than the one it is actually concluding. This time, though, instead of an awkward rush to explain how things got the way they were, we get the promise of a show we'll never get to see.

I mean, as much as I miss Camren Bicondova as Selina, Lili Simons as adult Selina was absolutely amazing too, and she even had chemistry with David Mazouz. The Joker came as advertised and the episode was well-paced.

Don't understand Ecco's murder but...I guess there's Indian Hill.

Still...Episode 2 will be nothing but fodder for fanfics...it'll be nothing I get to see. So this finale felt like an exercise in futility.

I'd rather spend it saying goodbye to the characters I knew and love. Oh well.

So long, Gotham. It was a good run.

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Was Batman wearing lipstick?

No one really looked 10 years older, but Selena and Barbara Lee. I was hoping we'd get to see Bruce and more of Batman.

Bye, Gotham. It was nice while it lasted.

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I am sad to see this show end. I got a little bored with it during the whole Nygma runs the Narrows fight club phase, but I still counted it as one of my favorite shows and I think they wrapped it up kind of perfectly. I do agree, however, with whoever said upthread that it should have been a two-part or at least a two-hour finale.

I also didn't think there was any reason to recast Selina. They could have made Camren look older...make-up exists. Use it. I couldn't really enjoy her scenes because I kept thinking how much nuSelina looked like a completely different person. I just didn't like it.

It would've been cool if they did an ending montage scene set to the theme music, showing flash-forwards of what's in store for Gotham...scenes of Batman vs. the villains and their plotting. Kind of like stills from the comics.

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10 hours ago, Giuseppe said:

I also didn't think there was any reason to recast Selina. They could have made Camren look older...make-up exists. Use it. I couldn't really enjoy her scenes because I kept thinking how much nuSelina looked like a completely different person. I just didn't like it.

I was also very critical of their decision to recast.  I’m sure Camren would have been excellent.  

But...  I think that their choice (Lili Simmons) was great!  Eyes, cheekbones...

Even the wig was good!  😮 

Edited by sisterspoon
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That was...a thing that happened. It wasn’t terrible, but it felt like they needed a two hour episode. I felt like we just got a small taste of things.

Glad that Oswald finally got sick of Jim’s shit. Yeah, he’s a criminal who belongs in jail, but Jim was incredibly unfair to him in how he ignored most crimes, ran to Oswald for help when he needed it, threw Oswald not in prison but the insane asylum twice for crimes he actually didn’t commit (including a murder Jim himself committed), and after Oswald helps him save the city, Jim turns around and throws him in prison for a decade (and no mention of what the crime was that put him there, so I’m assuming it wasn’t something so heinous Jim couldn’t look past it). The constant jerking around was what was cruel. If Jim always treated him like a criminal it would have been far less offensive. Oswald is right to be pissed at him. But he fell into the bad guy trap of monologue-ing and Jim got away. I hope all those chemicals Jim dumped in the river a little while back are all gone.

Don’t have much else to say because it all slipped by so quickly. Even the Jeremiah stuff seemed over before it began. I loved this show despite its faults and I will miss it.

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What kind of prisoner transport does not have a guard seated so he can see the actual prisoners? Which idiot keeps driving while the back doors are open????

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1 hour ago, paigow said:

What kind of prisoner transport does not have a guard seated so he can see the actual prisoners? Which idiot keeps driving while the back doors are open????

GCPD

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Gotham ends... by basically setting things up to be the Batman world every knows (and mainly loves?)

I did feel bad that Carmen Bicondova had to basically sit this one out so that they could get an older actress to play Older Selina, but credit where credit is due, Lili Simmons really does look like an older version of her.  I so want to see those two playing sisters on some kind of show or film.

Loved that they brought in Gordon's iconic stache, only for him to shave it off after Barbara mocked it.  Hee!

Speaking of which, surprised Barbara lived in the end.  Well done, show.

Ecco ended up not being Harley Quinn, but likely an inspiration for when Jeremiah/Joker ends up meeting Harley Quinzel, and turns her to his side.

Oswald/Nygma will always be the best in my eyes.

Bruce dawns on the cap and cowl!  And this series seems to be going with the idea Gordon knows he's Batman, but just never says it out loud.

Fare thee well, Gotham.  You were insane at times and didn't always work, but there is/was no other show quite like you.

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21 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Loved that they brought in Gordon's iconic stache, only for him to shave it off after Barbara mocked it.  Hee!

Only Gary Oldman can wear it...

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22 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Bruce dawns on the cap and cowl!  And this series seems to be going with the idea Gordon knows he's Batman, but just never says it out loud.

It also seemed like Joker knew it was Bruce.  And others might be suspicious when Bruce Wayne's return just happens to coincide with a mysterious new vigilante appearing.

Say what you will about Gotham, but apparently there's something in the water that prevents most people from aging.  That might be enough of a reason to live in a lunatic city like that.

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9 hours ago, WritinMan said:

Best episode of the season. Too bad Camren Bicondova wasn't allowed to be Selina for the last episode. I can understand why the change was made though....

Actually it was Camren who initiated the need for the recast and was delighted at the choice of the actress  to play her older self.

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If nothing else Gotham's finale was consistent with its creative failure as series. It had so much promise with the casting of talented actors who were perfect for their roles, but the inconsistent maniac often incoherent storytelling along the rampant misogyny made it unwatchable for long stretches.

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8 hours ago, sisterspoon said:

I think that their choice (Lili Simmons) was great!  Eyes, cheekbones...

I must admit, when she was in those tights standing on the rooftop Lili's butt looked really good. I think I fell in love...

Heck, throughout the episode Lili looked amazing.

Not to make it a throwaway, but her acting too was great. It was seamless from Camren to her in representing Selina. I thought Camren played a marvelous Selina, but Lili came extremely close, if not matching Camren.

In any case, I'd love for both of them to play some kind of sister act. Heck, maybe in a future Catwoman series...

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Well this show ended as busy and as madcap as it began. I made a note of rewatching the pilot episode before watching this to be honest.

What we got were snapshots of things to come with the final shot of Batman and you can tell that David's face was digitally added at the last minute.

Bye Ecco, you were too dumb to live but the next woman to get involved with Jeremiah will get the character growth off screen that you didn't get on screen.

Jeremiah taking Barbara Lee to Ace Chemicals to taunt Jim before meeting Batman, I can see the logic behind that. I take it Jeremiah did recognise who Batman was though.

The Catwoman costume needed some ears or a visor that would've worked as ears but overall looked okay. The recast was fine and I did like the BatCat rooftop scene as well.

Penguin and Riddler's reunion was lovely along with their individual plans for revenge and recognition being too easily scuppered at times.

I'm fine with Jim not having a mustache and I liked Barbara having longer hair in this one, even if it did look very Poison Ivy at times.

Nice little scenes with Bullock, Alfred, Leslie, Lucious, Harper and Alvarez in this one too.

The last shot of Batman and the symbol in the last title card was great. I'm going to miss this show but they were right to end it here, 9/10

Edited by darkestboy
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I don’t have much to add. I enjoyed the show more than most and am sad to see it go. I am a bit confused why Harvey was acting that way. I initially thought Scarecrow (mind control) was working with Jeremiah and was surprised when he wasn’t. With that said, I thought the episode was solid. Goodbye crazy Gotham!

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Oh they're showing where Bruce went. I wonder why he chose this place in particular? Maybe it's Nanda Parbat?

MOUSTACHE!

I'm only 3 minutes into it and I paused it to walk around the room - I don't want this show to end.

Aw no moustache

Why did they give Barbara Sr red hair? That's supposed to be Barbara Jr's hair colour

Thanks Lee for telling us what you've been doing for 10 years - that's handy!

Riddler suddenly has a Jim Carrey vibe

Penguin 'NOOOOWWWWW!'

Batman hand! And voice...is that David Mazouz's voice sort of scrambled?

What a coincidence that Penguin is being let out at the exact same time that Bruce comes back

Jim stabbed Penguin and Riddler in the back and sent them to Blackgate - not a surprise

Alfred!

"I felt someone was watching me and I know it was Bruce" - that would sound crazy if we didn't know Bruce was Batman

"So you came here tonight dressed to the nines to tell him that you want nothing more to do with him?" - Alfred knows what's up

I like Lili Simmons as Selina - she looks a lot like Camren Bicondova

Oh look the bomb stopped at 1 second - what a surprise!

I don't really buy that Harvey would just accept being framed and for what reason? What threat was issued? They never explained this and why did J want Riddler to do anything? I'm confused about Jeremiah's plan.

I love how Riddler and Penguin just laugh with each other

Oh I love Batman hanging them from a pole - classic Batman move

Joker's outfit is perfect

Did they just kill proto Harley?!

Did J just say Bruce is the only thing he loves? They're not trying to pretend that this isn't a ship anymore

Damn good entrance - thank you Bruce!

Could it be any more obvious that Bruce is Batman and Jim sort of knows?

BatCat rooftop scene!!!! And poor Selina - Bruce really was all she had

Not overly fond of the Bat costume but what a shot!

This definitely needed two episodes - I don't know why they didn't do that. It really felt like a pilot for a great show we'll never see. And I would have appreciated a recast for Bruce even for just one scene - I really wanted to see Bruce reunite with the other characters like Jim and have a last scene with Alfred but this time as a 6ft4" fully grown man. 

But what an ending - I can't believe the show is over. Damn it I'll miss so much.

Edited by superloislane
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2 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I must admit, when she was in those tights standing on the rooftop Lili's butt looked really good. I think I fell in love...

As did Francesca's in the Harley outfit in the bar.  My my my...

2 hours ago, darkestboy said:

Bye Ecco, you were too dumb to live but the next woman to get involved with Jeremiah will get the character growth off screen that you didn't get on screen.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there were a Miss Harleen Quinzel working her way through psychologist school even as we speak....

Damn, I'm going to miss this show.  Once it decided to screw "grounded" and embrace the whole damn crazy, it became like nothing else on television. And they were so all-in on the production design.

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11 hours ago, sisterspoon said:
11 hours ago, Giuseppe said:

I also didn't think there was any reason to recast Selina. They could have made Camren look older...make-up exists. Use it. I couldn't really enjoy her scenes because I kept thinking how much nuSelina looked like a completely different person. I just didn't like it.

I was also very critical of their decision to recast.  I’m sure Camren would have been excellent.  

But...  I think that their choice (Lili Simmons) was great!  Eyes, cheekbones...

Even the wig was good!  😮 

At first I thought so too, especially in closeups, but then she was standing next to Alfred and Barbara, in the banquet, and I realized it was not the face age that was the problem but the height. While David Mazouz really shot up during the series, Camren Bicondova remaind her short 5' 2" and would have looked like a child next to them. Lili Simmons is 5' 7" and so much more convincing as Catwoman.

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32 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

As did Francesca's in the Harley outfit in the bar.  My my my...

Well, I fell in love with Francesca Jo Root from the minute I first saw her, but she was especially striking in this one as well, I agree.

She's another one with a bright future.

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I wasn't able to watch this last night due to crappy weather. The local station covered 45 minutes telling us that bad weather was in the area. They then did the same thing to Orville. I will watch both shows on-demand (thank goodness for that)

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I liked it.

Even had some good humor:

Lee cuts one of two green wires, countdown stops, everybody is relieved.

Bomb restarts ticking down quickly.

Everyone: "The other one! The other one!!"

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It wasn't incredible but it was a solid series finale.  They could have tried aging Lee and Gordon at least a little.  It was nice seeing Oswald and Nygma in their final Penguin/Riddler incarnations.  Good showdown scene with this show's Joker and Batman making his debut.  Bomb diffusing scene was funny.  Batman himself looked kind of weird in the final shot of the episode.  A little sad that we got older Selina this week so I missed the actress who played her during the run.  It felt a little off.  We did get a final glimpse of young Bruce in Nepal at the beginning.  I will miss this crazy show, it was a fun ride.

Edited by Dobian

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Yikes, I thought the series final episode was awful, and horribly rushed.  It should have been a two or three episode event.

Edited by icemiser69
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It felt like a fitting end.  How else could you honor a prequel than by bringing us to the beginning of the next story?

  I have to say that Gotham goes down as my favorite live action Batman show even if the ole cape and cowl were mostly just alluded to.  I believe this Bruce Wayne and this Selina Kyle and Penguin and Riddler and Gordon and everyone else are exactly who they are meant to be and more.  When Gotham began I never would have believed they could bring such richness and depth to all of these characters.   

Leave them wanting more, that's what they always say.  They certainly did that.  

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Good God that was awful.  One of the worst Series Finales I can remember.

From no aging, to Penguin and Riddler being incompetent children, to Zombie "Joker".

If this was a pilot, it never would have made it past the first focus group.

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This was an decent and reasonably engaging episode to watch, maybe because it actually had a point. 

Not having Bruce/David returning and not seeing him interact with the characters we've grown to know made this episode feel like you were served an appetizer and you were anticipating dinner and dessert but the restaurant closes and that's it.  It just didn't feel satisfying in any way.

Given the way they've written and shown Bruce over the last few seasons, with the long black trenchcoat and all, everyone would have be dumber than a bag of bricks not to know right away Batman was Bruce.  Especially Selina.  I thought the Selina recast did a really good job.  It was still distracting, though.

Especially because he had just returned to Gotham.  Jim says "He's been busy a lot since he's been back."  But didn't Bruce supposedly just fly in that day?  

It would have been smarter if everyone thought Bruce had died, and then this mysterious Batman arrives in Gotham, and then a few months later, "Bruce Wayne" returns so the identity of the two would not be as obvious.

Haven't we already watched Ngyma in Arkham and The Return of The Penguin and The Proto-Joker Coming Back From The Dead x 10?  I mean, how many times can they write the variation of the same scene without being bored?

Gee whiz, what if the entire final season had been planned to set up this epilogue so it didn't feel like someone parachuted in an issue of A Dummy's Guide To Batman?  It's not like it was a surprise that this show was being cancelled.  Most of the characters' behaviors in this one stemmed from stuff that happened in the last 3 minutes of the previous episode, as the previouslies reinforced.

This show had style but that's about it for me.  I'm not a huge fan of violence, so it was the quieter character moments that kept me tuning in.  It was sparse even in Season 1 but it was almost nonexistent by the final season. 

Edited by Camera One
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14 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I don’t have much to add. I enjoyed the show more than most and am sad to see it go. I am a bit confused why Harvey was acting that way. I initially thought Scarecrow (mind control) was working with Jeremiah and was surprised when he wasn’t. With that said, I thought the episode was solid. Goodbye crazy Gotham!

I assumed that Jeremiah said he’d kill Barbara Lee if Bullock said he was behind it.

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This was my twitter reaction and response upon watching the show:

🤨So...No one in @Gotham ages a day in 10 years but #SelinaKyle is recast giving @camrenbicondova the🖕for 5 years work & @realdavidmazouz gets 2 seconds of bad CGI before the credits roll. 💩ending to a mediocre last season of a mostly fun & crazy series. At least the rogues Killed it - @robinlordtaylor @mister_CMS & @cameronmonaghan were fantastic & amazing as usual. Overall I enjoyed it for what it was but ultimately disappointed without #BatCat😞😔

I stand by it and don't buy for a second that Camren's height is a viable reason for recasting. There are ways of framing a shot and filming actors to appear taller than they actually are - Cruise and Stallone benefit from such techniques on a regular basis, to name just two. A different hairstyle and some makeup in combination would have easily allowed her to look ten years older... Not that they bothered to try and make anyone else look older. The lack of aging and the recast are my only real issues, other than that it was relatively enjoyable. Someone up thread said something to the effect that Camren initiated or necessitated the recast; I'd like a citation or more information to back up that claim. 

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Am I the only one that thinks Jeremiah is dead? 

I mean, maybe not if the show was continuing but since it's not.... Batman hit him in the head with his bat boomerang thingy. He went down. He was still down in the background when showing Gordon saving Barbara Lee.

And I'm sure I've read on this board other posters quoting tptb stating that Jeremiah wasn't meant to be the joker. 

I for one will miss this crazy show. I am not a comic book reader so I never really compared the show or it's characters to different mediums. I just took it for what it was and had fun with it. 

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Was there another 3 month time jump between the time Gordon got stabbed and his next scene? Did Batman give Gordon some magic Himalayan Herbal Healing tea?

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10 hours ago, Daltrey said:

I stand by it and don't buy for a second that Camren's height is a viable reason for recasting. There are ways of framing a shot and filming actors to appear taller than they actually are - Cruise and Stallone benefit from such techniques on a regular basis, to name just two. A different hairstyle and some makeup in combination would have easily allowed her to look ten years older... Not that they bothered to try and make anyone else look older. The lack of aging and the recast are my only real issues, other than that it was relatively enjoyable. Someone up thread said something to the effect that Camren initiated or necessitated the recast; I'd like a citation or more information to back up that claim. 

Here's what she said about the recast:

 "It's important to me that I'm the one to tell you this because it was a choice that I made [...] I wanted to give (the character) Selina Kyle as much respect as possible. Some will say that giving her respect would include seeing the character through the end of the show, which I understand. But, I firmly believe that part of leaving a legacy and being part of a legacy means knowing when to pass the torch to someone else."

https://www.tvguide.com/news/gotham-camren-bicondova-replaced-lili-simmons/

Edited by WhyOhWhy
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12 hours ago, Daltrey said:

Someone up thread said something to the effect that Camren initiated or necessitated the recast; I'd like a citation or more information to back up that claim. 

She did leave a post on twitter/instagram but to me that doesn't really confirm that the decision was hers.

To me, what's damningly obvious is that the actress that replaced her looked nothing like Camren. And no, slapping a long curly blonde wig on Lili (when Camren's curls were chin-length) isn't convincing anyone. They look nothing alike. They don't have the same face (Lili's is narrow, Camren's is round), or body type (Lili is tall and lanky, Camren was short and curvy). 

The fact is that, sadly, Camren's full-cheeks and full body is not what Hollywood regards as leading lady material. 

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