S08.E03: The Long Night

[bluvelvet]

Now the scene in the first episode had some meaning. Jon commented to Arya that he hadn’t heard her and this was in broad daylight with a quiet atmosphere. That’s was meant to highlight her stealth. 

It makes total sense to me that she would use that stealth to sneak up on the NK with night cover and a battle raging about. 

[hoosiermommy]

I will never have the self-assurance and confidence the Night King had as he walked into see Bran. That “man” had the baring of a king, alright.

[riff-raff]

I thought there were some gorgeous scenes and some great moments, but overall I'm disappointed.  Two things:

First -- I could not get over the mind-numbing idiocy of their battle strategy.  Sending the Dothraki out on an open field charge to their certain death?  It's worse then throwing their lives away.  Given what the NK raises the dead, you just gave the NK a mounted Dothraki army.   I know they wanted sweeping, sacrificial war scenes and all, but I  could not suspend my disbelief enough to accept that that in a war where keeping your side alive is the number 1 priority, you abandon the safety of castle and send everyone charging out towards the enemy.  

Second -- I needed better closure on why Bran was so important and why the NK was so keen on killing him.  "Bran is the one with memories" was too thin a sauce, IMO.  I would have liked to see Bran have some role in the battle other than just "bait" which validated the importance and mysticism surrounding his character.   

Edited April 29, 2019 by riff-raff

[Keely]

33 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It'll be interesting to see if they write the remaining military strategy with a modicum of intelligence, because it actually is kind of a interesting conflict strategically and tactically. One side is now hugely superior in conventional military capabilities, while the other is hugely superior in unconventional weapons of mass destruction (dragon), special operations (Arya's faces and assassin's skills), and very, very, importantly, intelligence gathering (Bran, and using the dragons for aerial observation). Cersei's politically brittle rule (and as Clausewitz and Sun Tzu note war is inherently political) is a big fat target for a well planned, well executed decapitation strike, but the dragon is not invulnerable, and the enemy having a much bigger, better provisioned army amd navy are real problems for the northern forces to overcome.

I really hope they write well enough, given a pretty interesting remaining human premise, now that the zombies are gone. 

I think it's folly to hope for any of the above given this episode. I appreciate what they achieved and the scale they did it on during this episode. It's a feat I doubt we'll see again on television anytime soon.

However, once you get past those aspects of the battle and dive into tactics, the whole episode was a hot mess from start to finish. There was little, if any, intelligence used in the battle's design. It seems to have revolved entirely around throwing spaghetti at the walls to see what stuck and hoping someone stayed alive long enough to off the NK. Otherwise, you wouldn't have things like the Dothraki charge or staring down at the still horde from atop the wall and not a single arrow being fired.

[MJ Frog]

16 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I think it's hard to keep on doing genuine surprises for 8 seasons, imo. 

I would also humbly submit that not all good storytelling can be measured by how many surprises it produces. I mean, that's fun and all, and this show has done a great job of it, but there are other ways to produce dramatic tension. I am struck by how many stories these days rely on mystery and twists to drive them, almost as a sort of crutch. I think it can more difficult, and impressive, to tell a story whose power doesn't come from where you end up, but the journey you took to get there.

There are only a few surprising twists in Lord of the Rings, and after the first hundred pages or so no remaining mystery. It's just: well, we have this shitty thing to do, we better get about doing it. And yet there is plenty of dramatic tension involved in doing that shitty thing.

Good storytelling is also about creating atmosphere and mood, about putting you inside the heads of the characters and making you feel what they feel. There was no one I identified with in this episode so much as the Hound, who was thinking they were all fucked and there was nothing they could do. Right there with you, dude. Everybody's mileage varies quite a bit, but the show did a great job of making me feel that despair.

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Totally with you, it doesn't stop me from appreciating the show, it's just one of those thought exercises I run into whenever I watch. Especially with such dwindled numbers on the north side. 

Let me ask anyone who wants to answer: are you "up" for another big battle episode like The Long Night? I am not sure I am as it comes to King's Landing. I don't know!

I really don't want another huge battle. To me, the ending should be more political. Sure, violence will be needed, but it shouldn't entail many thousand of casualties, given one side's leadership has no loyal followers beyond the purely short term transactional. An intelligently written ending will feature that reality.

[terrymct]

43 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It really would make the most sense for Arya to enter Kings Landing covertly, take the face of someone not well guarded who interacts with Qyburn, then take Qyburn's face, then whack Cersei. Might lack some drama, of course.

Agreed.  Especially since they're short of troops.  I can't see Jon, Dany, and any surviving knights supporting that plan.   I really think in the long run that the story arc leads to Jaime killing Cersei.

[Bali]

I have very mixed feelings about this episode. It was SO hard to see what was happening. I mean, I get it, it was night, you get to feel the confusion, blah blah. But as was mentioned, the Battle of Blackwater was also at night, and it was visible. They could have done the fight close dawn. Or even on a night with a good full moon and still been able to see parts of it. I mean, there were truly times, when I had no idea who was fighting. For instance, I thought that it was Little Bear that Berrick pointed to the Hound when the Hound was whinging about it being pointless because there is no point in fighting death, "Tell that to her." Could have sworn that was Lyanna, not Arya. Thought it was Arya that got tossed aside by the giant. 

I have the internet to tell me Grey Worm and Jamie didn't die, because again, really thought I saw them dead. I only know about 2 dragons and Ghost because of a scene by scene capture of the preview trailer on buzzfeed.

But in all of that, I did LOVE Lyanna being her fierce self until the very end. I loved Sansa finally telling Tyrion he was the best (because the competition- Jeez he really needs to be better than Joffrey or Ramsey. GADS!) I loved Missendei telling Sansa that she should be grateful for a half a minute. The Hound- once again fighting for Arya!

The dead coming out of the crypts allowing me to say to those who thought, "They won't come out, because the dead can't be strong enough," Well to you I say, "I informed you thusly! I SO INFORMED YOU THUSLY!"

Dany saving Jon more than once. Jorah saving Dany. Dany's true grief, and Drogon comforting her. (Like my sheltie was comforting me at that point.)

Theon. Davos watching Melisandre walk away as she's aging and turning to dust. But Davos being smart enough to let her help in spite of his feelings about her.

And ARYA STARK! "Not Today."

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Keely said:

I think it's folly to hope for any of the above given this episode. I appreciate what they achieved and the scale they did it on during this episode. It's a feat I doubt we'll see again on television anytime soon.

However, once you get past those aspects of the battle and dive into tactics, the whole episode was a hot mess from start to finish. There was little, if any, intelligence used in the battle's design. It seems to have revolved entirely around throwing spaghetti at the walls to see what stuck and hoping someone stayed alive long enough to off the NK. Otherwise, you wouldn't have things like the Dothraki charge or staring down at the still horde from atop the wall and not a single arrow being fired.

Oh, I agree. Just trying to be optimistic, despite all contrary evidence.

[Wendy]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Exactly.  The only numbers that count are:

Dany: 2 dragons, 1 Arya

Cersei : 0 dragons, 0 Aryas, 0 elephants  

Tyrion has warned Dany several times about using the dragons in KL because of the left over wild fire. He has mentioned several times that if she does then she would be the queen of ashes. That has been the main reason why they waited and waited after they arrived to Dragonstone. There has to be a use for the dragons that doesn't mean burning 1 million people. 

Cersei basically has the people of KL hostage, if Dany uses the dragons and the whole city goes up in flames then Dany would in fact be the Queen of Ashes. I think that more strategically thinking is needed for this one. Arya's knowledge of the secret passages of the Red Keep will come in handy. 

I am looking forward to this battle, Cersei has said many times that she is better than her brothers and that she should have been born a man. I want to see if these were empty words or if she can back it up. Let's the battle of military strategies commence. 

[Drogo]

Just now, Bali said:

Well to you I say, "I informed you thusly! I SO INFORMED YOU THUSLY!"

Also.. 

The Starks aren't the best looking house in general, but... Dead Starks are especially unattractive. 

[FormerMod-a1]

4 minutes ago, Bali said:

I have very mixed feelings about this episode. It was SO hard to see what was happening. I mean, I get it, it was night, you get to feel the confusion, blah blah. But as was mentioned, the Battle of Blackwater was also at night, and it was visible. They could have done the fight close dawn. Or even on a night with a good full moon and still been able to see parts of it. I mean, there were truly times, when I had no idea who was fighting....

The bolded part would never happen.  The Night King brought the ice storm.  The clouds of that storm block out the moon and stars making night even darker. The clouds didn't break until he died.

[Bali]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

You know what Cersei still doesn't have?  Dragons. 

Bet that Golden Company armor will lend itself to the perfect Kentucky Fried Mercenaries.  (Like a Le Creuset, but for peoples.)  Get the hot sauce ready, folks!   

And elephants. Don't forget she doesn't have her precious elephants. ha haha hahahahaha

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, Wendy said:

Tyrion has warned Dany several times about using the dragons in KL because of the left over wild fire. He has mentioned several times that if she does then she would be the queen of ashes. That has been the main reason why they waited and waited after they arrived to Dragonstone. There has to be a use for the dragons that doesn't mean burning 1 million people. 

Cersei basically has the people of KL hostage, if Dany uses the dragons and the whole city goes up in flames then Dany would in fact be the Queen of Ashes. I think that more strategically thinking is needed for this one. Arya's knowledge of the secret passages of the Red Keep will come in handy. 

I am looking forward to this battle, Cersei has said many times that she is better than her brothers and that she should have been born a man. I want to see if these were empty words or if she can back it up. Let's the battle of military strategies commence. 

The only thing that makes Cersei dangerous is she does not mind to be the queen of ashes.  She would not hesitate to kill and/or destroy everything as long as she is the last one sitting on the Iron Throne

[Bali]

4 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

The bolded part would never happen.  The Night King brought the ice storm.  The clouds of that storm block out the moon and stars making night even darker. The clouds didn't break until he died.

I know, I'm just in the "wish I could see this better" camp.

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

The only thing that makes Cersei dangerous is she does not mind to be the queen of ashes.  She would not hesitate to kill and/or destroy everything as long as she is the last one sitting on the Iron Throne

This is what I was just about to say. She seems like a psychopath that truly does not care about anyone else. Her brothers do. She has no problem killing thousands, because they do not matter to her.

In the end, I want Arya to kill her and for the last words she hears to be, "The North remembers."

[Wendy]

3 hours ago, mammaM said:

This this this. I hate Cersei being right about sitting out the battle

I do hope that Daenerys , Tyron and Varys start doing a lot of PR before the battle. It takes about 6 weeks to make it from WF to KL, maybe 4 weeks on ships, but I hope Dany & team have the presence of mind to start spreading the word about Cersei's lack of honor. They need to let the small folk of KL that Cersei gave her word to help fight against the dead and then didn't honor her word, by not doing so she could have lost the whole Westeros. 

Cersei has done a good job of depicting Dany as the new Mad Queen so they need to counteract that propaganda in some kind of way. The more people that evacuate KL, the less victims there will be. 

[Dobian]

If it was up to the North, they would probably just want to keep the dragons right there at Winterfell and let Cersei come if she wants, they'd fry her army.  So it would be a stalemate.   But they're Dany's dragons and she wants the Iron Throne.

[Keely]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, I agree. Just trying to be optimistic, despite all contrary evidence.

I can't blame you there. I think I held a little too much optimism going into this episode.

10 minutes ago, riff-raff said:

Second -- I needed better closure on why Bran was so important and why the NK was so keen on killing him.  "Bran is the one with memories" was too thin a sauce, IMO.  I would have liked to see Bran have some role in the battle other than just "bait" which validated the importance and mysticism surrounding his character.   

Same, except I need a better reason period at this point. It seems to me Bran's memories are irrelevant. 99.9% of the world doesn't know about him or his memories. As things stand, whether he lives or dies changes nothing.

[enoughcats]

What? No word about the NK's lack of an optometrist?

The Giant has to have been horribly near sighted. If he had held Leanna at arm's length, the small warrior could not have touched him.  So he had to have been, ahem, terminally near sighted.  Thus he lifted her close to his face to examine her more closely.

Coup de grace.  until the even more final, Arya to NK CdG. The CdG to end all CdG.

[MrWhyt]

1 minute ago, enoughcats said:

What? No word about the NK's lack of an optometrist?

The Giant has to have been horribly near sighted. If he had held Leanna at arm's length, the small warrior could not have touched him.  So he had to have been, ahem, terminally near sighted.  Thus he lifted her close to his face to examine her more closely.

Coup de grace.  until the even more final, Arya to NK CdG. The CdG to end all CdG.

I think he was planning on having a snack

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Dragons do not have a gender, as I understand it. 

Dragons switch gender based on need. So with 3, now 2, dragons; it is likely that Rhaegal is a girl since Drogon is clearly a boy.

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"The seed is strong." - Jon Arryn   

Expect a black of hair baby in 9 months.   🙂

Can you just imagine Arya as a mom, raising an army of little Arya's and Gendry's ......who would need dragons?

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

There is a call out to this in the Church of the Many Face God. 

During S6 when Jaquen approaches Arya and tells he will give her sight back if she admits she is Arya. She tells him that she is No One. Arya is kneeling at a lighted fireplace when he asks her. 

As Jaqen goes to get the potion to give her eyesight back, the camera pans out and you see part of a werewood tree was sculpted into the wall above the fireplace. 

Jaqen knew Arya was still House Stark. The many-faced God accepted all faiths. Did he see something in the flames that told of her future. Could explain why he let her go with a couple of faces in her bag. 

This makes sense, I always thought it was odd how he seemed to actually want her to leave.

1 hour ago, Carolina Girl said:

Although, to me, the DOWN side for Cersei on this is that as the Northern Army moves toward King's Landing, word may spread to the other houses along the way that Cersei was gambling with their lives.  She had no way of knowing if Winterfell would survive the onslaught; if it didn't, there were now be - what? - Another 50,000 in the AofD from the casualties at Winterfell?  And the houses not in on summit (which is MOST of them) would have absolutely NO way of knowing how to kill them.  Dragonglass?  They not only don't have any, they have absolutely no way of knowing how to get it?  Valyrian Steel?  Very few arms are made with it.  Fire?  We've seen how ineffective that actually is on a grand scale.  And as the AofD moved south, more and more houses would fall and join it.  

Meanwhile, word will get out that the STARKS and TARGARYENS are the houses ones that saved Westoros; that the Lanisters did NOTHING (aside from Jaime and Tyrion) to try to save the people of Westeros.  Cersie may have those mercenaries; but Dany still has two dragons.  Now that Jaime has gone north and can reveal the plan to Dany, I suspect you'll see a night strike on Euron Greyjoy's fleet.    

This is good.  As word spreads, houses turn on her. By the time they get to KL, all of Westeros knows.

If your going for the person who most deserves to kill Cersei, I would actually say that honor falls on Bran.  

As to the one most likely to actually kill her, well I don't think its Sansa either. Most likely candidates are Jon, Jaime, Tyrion, and maybe Dany. I would have added Arya, but because she killed the NK, I don't think she'll kill Cersei.

[Uncle JUICE]

4 minutes ago, Keely said:

I can't blame you there. I think I held a little too much optimism going into this episode.

Same, except I need a better reason period at this point. It seems to me Bran's memories are irrelevant. 99.9% of the world doesn't know about him or his memories. As things stand, whether he lives or dies changes nothing.

HE keeps telling people he's the three eyed raven, and I can't for the life of me think of anyone south of Winterfell who might even know what that means. I'm sure a Maester or two, but he's said it to a number of people who have no reason to understand it, and they just ignore it. It seems indeed like his role would be met with "So what?" in the south.  

[Kabota]

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really don't want another huge battle. To me, the ending should be more political. Sure, violence will be needed, but it shouldn't entail many thousand of casualties, given one side's leadership has no loyal followers beyond the purely short term transactional. An intelligently written ending will feature that reality.

I think whatever struggle there is for King's Landing will be more of a battle of wits, Golden Company and dragons, notwithstanding. I think the folk down in the crypts who felt they had no particular strengths to offer at this juncture (Tyrion, Sansa, Varys) will be the ultimate heroes in besting Cersei. They know her best, after all, and Tyrion owes her. 

I have mixed feelings about this episode. The atmosphere at the beginning and some of the visuals, like the flaming Dothraki swords, waning, were incredible. I was really moved by Jorah and Theon's deaths, despite the predictability. There were great moments, but the ending just fell a bit flat to me. I'm left with too many questions. Reading through this thread has helped me see some things that I didn't catch first go round, though, and maybe I'll rewatch sometime with more reasonable expectations. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Kabota

[Taget]

14 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Yeah, without dragons, this would've been a five minute episode.

Actually I was expecting something like that.  And I think it would have been a better episode if the good guys "lost" this one.

Two reasons.  One it seemed like a really quick convenient ending to something that was supposed to be an era defining event.  The 40 year old winter, the dead rising, the zombie apocalypse, the entire reason the Wall was built in the first place.  Instead the Night King delays a bit too long and Arya runs to the rescue out of nowhere.  Apocalypse cancelled.  Sorry for the build up.

And two I wanted to see that army head south for Cercei to totally scramble the story.  With Cercei being the only one with the forces to confront the armies of the dead.  And our northern survivors running down south to rescue her (and hopefully kill her).  It also fulfills all the visions we have seen of the winter doomed Kings Landing.

14 hours ago, Xantar said:

So the thing about the Dothraki is they were always going to be mostly useless in this battle. They are light cavalry. Their tactic is to race around on horses, carving up the infantry and moving too fast to get hit. But that doesn’t work when your enemy is almost infinite and has no fear. Moreover, this was a defensive battle which the Dothraki don’t do. They are nomads, after all.

So really, the best way to use them was pretty much what we just saw. It’s unfortunate that they weren’t more effective, but they really never could be in this situation. 

With the Dothraki you also have the issue that they only allow the strongest (and one of their own) to rule.  If and when Dany dies (and even if she wins the entire war she eventually has to die) this huge horde that has plagued Essos for eons rendering large portions of it uninhabitable with civilization only persisting in large slave cities would not be in Westeros.

The best thing for Westeros was for this horde to be finally eradicated.  Rather than running around pulling down "stone houses."

12 hours ago, Drogo said:

I'd say the fact that she referred to her as The Dragon Queen and not The Queen or Queen Daenerys spoke volumes. "The Dragon Queen" sounds like something only Daenerys' enemies would call her.

Sansa was talking shit and putting a carrot out, hoping for Tyrion to support her ideas for an independent North: 

Sansa views Dany as a threat.  And unfortunately she has learned everything she knows about politics from Cercei.  The woman whose schemes to protect her family only ended up destroying her family and imperiled literally the entire world.  And unfortunately not everyone can "fail upwards" the way Cercei has.

12 hours ago, Leroux said:

I think both have more in common so it is no wonder to me why they would want the same, they both want what was taken from their families and want to serve the people under their care. Now with Arya being a Stark of WF, I do hope that Daenerys considers the option to have the North as an alllied/partner/sort of independent like she gave the Iron Islands or how Aegon the Conqueror gave the kingdom of Dorne, there are precedents that she could take in consideration. JMO

I'm of the opposite opinion.  For political reasons she will give the North considerable autonomy.  Given her loss of military power defending it perhaps even independence.  But the best way she can be a different type of ruler is to do what she promised and "break the wheel" and not repeat the mistake of giving the "Lords" of the seven kingdoms so much power that the second central power erodes Westeros plunges into a devastating war devastating it's populace.  The stronger the central authority the better it is for most of the citizens of Westeros whether they know it or not.

11 hours ago, ElizaD said:

So. . . Cersei was right. And will face no negative consequences for her decision to treat the undead apocalypse as a useless little scuffle that will give her a chance to win by weakening her enemies before they must face her. She'll be deposed but first she'll get to do more damage to the allies than the NK.

Screw all the claims that politicking is pointless in a time of crisis, it's going to be the entire climax of the show. I didn't expect real main characters to die but I'm shocked by how many second-tier redshirts survived - they should have killed at least a few to give this battle a tiny bit of weight. I did not expect to be so truly, honestly disappointed after the sense of doom and fine character work in 8x02.

I'll give you a historical example where this happened.  During the Ottoman invasion of Europe almost all the major powers literally fled in terror with the Turks right on the gates of Vienna.  The only nation that was brave enough to save "Christian Europe" was Poland whose leader, John Sobieski, though outnumbered led the forces that confronted and defeated the Ottoman armies.  Poland was militarily depleted and within a hundred years was erased off the face of the earth by the nations it saved.

That may be Dany's fate.  She may be reduced to footnote in history few people remember.  In fact if Cersei prevails the history books will portray her as the heroine who saved the world.

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

[DigitalCount]

4 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

I think he was planning on having a snack

As an anime fan, I'd say it's definitely this.

[Giselle]

5 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

What? No word about the NK's lack of an optometrist?

The Giant has to have been horribly near sighted. If he had held Leanna at arm's length, the small warrior could not have touched him.  So he had to have been, ahem, terminally near sighted.  Thus he lifted her close to his face to examine her more closely.

Coup de grace.  until the even more final, Arya to NK CdG. The CdG to end all CdG.

I don't think the giant was trying to get a look at Fierce Little Bear Cub.

I thought he saw her more as an amuse bouche which is why we saw him opening his mouth.

[chrisvee]

49 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Totally with you, it doesn't stop me from appreciating the show, it's just one of those thought exercises I run into whenever I watch. Especially with such dwindled numbers on the north side. 

Let me ask anyone who wants to answer: are you "up" for another big battle episode like The Long Night? I am not sure I am as it comes to King's Landing. I don't know!

I am more interested in the interpersonal dynamics rather than another huge battle although we’re likely getting one.

[Giselle]

18 minutes ago, Bali said:

I know, I'm just in the "wish I could see this better" camp.

This is what I was just about to say. She seems like a psychopath that truly does not care about anyone else. Her brothers do. She has no problem killing thousands, because they do not matter to her.

In the end, I want Arya to kill her and for the last words she hears to be, "The North remembers."

Or how about Aria, as she plunges Needle into Cersei, whispers in Cersei's ear "A Lannister always pays her debts."

[QuinnM]

As I watched everyone head to the crypts I thought Tyrion was picking up a little over night bag.  I'm like wha? this guy has a go bag at the door.  But it was just wine skins.  So that made sense.

[WatchrTina]

HBO has posted a behind-the-scenes video for this episode and it is AWESOME.  It's much more in-depth than the usual Inside-the-episode video. (That is also available -- it comes on automatically if you watch the episode on-demand.)

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3M0Xt97aFI

Edited April 29, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Constantinople]

42 minutes ago, Wendy said:

Tyrion has warned Dany several times about using the dragons in KL because of the left over wild fire. He has mentioned several times that if she does then she would be the queen of ashes. That has been the main reason why they waited and waited after they arrived to Dragonstone. There has to be a use for the dragons that doesn't mean burning 1 million people.

I believe most of the leftover wildfire was used to blow up the Sept of Baelor.

And, in my opinion, the main reason they waited was the writers wanted to keep Cersei around. They didn't need to torch the entire city, just the Red Keep while keeping the city under siege. If Euron showed his ships, or any Lannister armies showed up, the dragons would have torched them. Plus, the Army of the Dead would still be stuck behind the Wall

Edited April 29, 2019 by Constantinople

[millennium]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

I believe most viewers took it as NK sitting on the throne.  With NK gone, at least I am interpreting it as a metaphor.  Also, Dany never sit on the throne in her vision, close but no sugar

I was looking at it as a literal glimpse of the future, the same with the dragon shadow darkening the rooftops of King's Landing.

[QuantumMechanic]

13 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

And it can't be Bronn, because Jerome Flynn and Lene Headey won't share any scenes. 

I don't follow the show in the media so I'd not heard about this.  What's the backstory on it?

[Macbeth]

Beria had his own "Hold the door moment". He stood in the corridor and blocked it with his frame so that Arya could get farther away. 

Beric got stabbed many times and one was definitely the killing blow. 

The quiet piano theme during the part of the battle when all appeared lost threw me off. It was beautiful, but it sounded like it was something I would hear on Westworld. I know they share the same composer. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Macbeth

[MVFrostsMyPie]

It seemed like kind of a waste to have Theon with a bunch of red shirts to defend Bran, when Bran knew that Arya would be the one to save him anyway (and why can't he share any of these thoughts? Like, "hey y'all, no worries, my sister will jump out of nowhere and kill the NK. Sorry y'all are going to die pointlessly anyway though." 
So, did Bran want Theon to die or not care about him dying, but wanted to at least make him feel better about dying by telling him he was a good man? 

Bran annoys the shit out of me. 

[Wendy]

26 minutes ago, Bali said:

I know, I'm just in the "wish I could see this better" camp.

This is what I was just about to say. She seems like a psychopath that truly does not care about anyone else. Her brothers do. She has no problem killing thousands, because they do not matter to her.

In the end, I want Arya to kill her and for the last words she hears to be, "The North remembers."

That would be amazing. I want her death to be as painful as possible. I can picture Arya saying: 

One stab, "This is for my father" 

Another stab, "this is for Sansa" 

Another stab, "This is for my mother, Robb and his wife" 

And then I wouldn't mind if she tells her " The last thing you're ever going to see is a Stark, smiling down at you, as you die." 

Please D&D make it happen. 

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Just now, QuantumMechanic said:

I don't follow the show in the media so I'd not heard about this.  What's the backstory on it?

They dated and it ended badly. They both have it in their contracts that they'd be on the show as long as they don't have to do any scenes together or be in the same room.

[Dobian]

I would like some explanation, even in a mini flashback next week, for how Arya got past a zombie mob in the castle and then past the NK's guards to attack him.  Her ability to use faces would be the obvious explanation and the ultimate culmination of her assassin training.

[Macbeth]

6 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

It seemed like kind of a waste to have Theon with a bunch of red shirts to defend Bran, when Bran knew that Arya would be the one to save him anyway (and why can't he share any of these thoughts? Like, "hey y'all, no worries, my sister will jump out of nowhere and kill the NK. Sorry y'all are going to die pointlessly anyway though." 
 

Bran needed Theon and the Ironborn  there to keep killing the wights so that Arya would have a clear path to get into the tree. 

Bran was never in danger from the wights. The NK had such control over the wights that he would never allow them to touch Bran. 

[MadameKillerB]

Did Alys Karstark die? She was with the Greyjoys in the godswood. I assume she did...

[Holmbo]

16 hours ago, Ottis said:

That was terrible. An hour of disappointment and “what the hell is happening?” followed by 10 minutes of “how long can we stretch this out” then about 10-15 minutes of good stuff with one nice moment (Theon) and one great moment (Arya). What a waste of a cast of characters. And the sneaking around stuff was stupid, in a battle against endless waves of dead. I know they used it to break up action but it should have been a long, frantic retreat. Also... go Lady Mormont. ADD: If the producers think Arya saving the day was “misdirection,” they are nuts. She had a secret anti dead weapon made, for crying out loud. 

Agreed! I just watched it and was so disappointed! I've not read most of the thread but you're the first negative comment so I'll just concur with you and head out again. 😄

Edited April 29, 2019 by Holmbo

[WatchrTina]

Just now, MadameKillerB said:

Did Alys Karstark die? She was with the Greyjoys in the godswood. I assume she did...

That was my interpretation as well, though I think it's a shame we did not see her fall.

As for how Arya got past all the wights and the other White Walkers, my fan-wank is that they all have something of a hive mind in that they do what they sense their maker wants them to do and they pay attention to what their maker is paying attention to.  Since the Night King ultimately made all of them, they were focused on watching Bran because he had the NK's undivided attention.  That, combined with Arya's super stealth skills, got her within striking distance.

[Drogo]

Theon Greyjoy is no joke with a bow and arrow. 

NK may have stirred up a storm, but ol' boy Theon made it rain. 

[VCRTracking]

They also had the shot of one of the White Walkers' hair moving and his turning around as if something was rushing past, so Arya was really booking to get to the Night King.

[Emkat]

16 hours ago, catrice2 said:

I cannot understand why Dani could not love Jorah!!! 

Me either. The guy was hot AF. That voice! Swoon!

[DarkRaichu]

29 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I believe most of the leftover wildfire was used to blow up the Sept of Baelor.

And, in my opinion, the main reason they waited was the writers wanted to keep Cersei around. They didn't need to torch the entire city, just the Red Keep while keeping the city under siege. If Euron showed his ships, or any Lannister armies showed up, the dragons would have torched them. Plus, the Army of the Dead would still be stuck behind the Wall

Qyburn has the ability to make wildfire so supply is not the issue

[Ottis]

15 minutes ago, Holmbo said:

Agreed! I just watched it and was so disappointed! I've not read most of the thread but you're the first negative comment so I'll just concur with you and head out again.

There are many similar comments today in reviews around the internet. Might not find as many among fans here. I was glad to see many others shared my take. Lots of comments about how difficult it was to follow, and how the show lost its nerve and left so many alive. Caused minimal emotional impact. 

[The Companion]

7 hours ago, DrSpaceman said:

I don't understand why they didn't use the dragons at the beginning before the dead army attacked, when it was on its way to winterfell.  I guess they wanted to be sure the Night King didn't kill them, but still, that was their only chance to win, or stave off sure death, was using the dragons

The dragons were being held back for the Night King (and they knew they couldn't win if he didn't come). The battle strategy acknowledged they couldn't win without getting the Night King. 

6 hours ago, merrick715 said:

Thank you. Someone should have taken a few swords or spears down in the crypts with them, The only reason Sansa had that shank was that Arya gave it to her, and then sent her to the crypts.  It seemed like it wasn't the plan for Sansa to go to the crypts.  She is standing on the battlements with Arya, and it isn't until the Dothraki get slaughtered, that Arya sends her away.

They were pressed to have enough weapons for the soldiers they did have. I am not sure there were a lot of extras. Beyond that, I think the general philosophy was that if the dead get into the crypt (ignoring that they were already there), all is lost anyway. The weapons were therefore more useful outside.

4 hours ago, Giselle said:

Sansa didn't abandon her people. She made the right choice going down into the crypt.

She couldn't fight, she didn't know how. She would have been in the way just as Varys and Tyrion would have been. Had she been outside her presence would have hindered the fighters from being truly effective. They would have tried to protect her and not kill as many wights.

She would have also been and was inefective in the crypt and she and Tyrion made the smart choice not the courageous.

Apparently she didn't learn Cersei's lesson of always having a lord high executioner to take care of things as you awaited the outcome of a war. 

I agree. There has been a lot of complaining about Sam not going to the crypt for the same reason. She had 0 training. When it became apparent that the dead were going to overrun Winterfell, there was no reason to have her outside distracting everyone. 

3 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

The throne was covered with snow...  Now, which Snow could it be?  Jon is not technically a Snow anymore 😉

It could have been ash.

3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Sansa had just seen the Dothraki wiped out quickly, and had just seen Dany coming to help and bringing down wights, and she saw that they still kept coming.  She also saw the Unullied still unwavering.  All before she went down into the crypt.  I thought she looked rightfully freaked out.  She could only make eye contact with Tyrion at that moment and he understood what it meant.  That's why he kind of crumpled a little and started drinking,  I think she was too freaked out to much comforting. She just tried to be stoic and I think that's a lot.  She did manage to hold it together.  That said, that's also why I was a bit taken aback at her little barb at Tyrion about Dany.  She had just witnessed the Dothraki and Unsullied fighting to their sure death, for the North which are complete strangers to them, because of their loyalty to Dany.  She had just seen Dany in the thick of battle working to protect them, too.  I don't know why she'd still be wary of others being loyal to her.

I agree that she came down believing everyone was dead. The Dothraki didn't even slow the dead down.

1 hour ago, Coxfires said:

I know but, heck, it takes sometimes more than a few tries!

Look, it took me 10 years and a lot of medical intervention, but I know others that it happened on immediately. A one night stand can absolutely lead to pregnancy. Doubly so in fiction.

1 hour ago, MJ Frog said:

I would also humbly submit that not all good storytelling can be measured by how many surprises it produces. I mean, that's fun and all, and this show has done a great job of it, but there are other ways to produce dramatic tension. I am struck by how many stories these days rely on mystery and twists to drive them, almost as a sort of crutch. I think it can more difficult, and impressive, to tell a story whose power doesn't come from where you end up, but the journey you took to get there.

There are only a few surprising twists in Lord of the Rings, and after the first hundred pages or so no remaining mystery. It's just: well, we have this shitty thing to do, we better get about doing it. And yet there is plenty of dramatic tension involved in doing that shitty thing.

Good storytelling is also about creating atmosphere and mood, about putting you inside the heads of the characters and making you feel what they feel. There was no one I identified with in this episode so much as the Hound, who was thinking they were all fucked and there was nothing they could do. Right there with you, dude. Everybody's mileage varies quite a bit, but the show did a great job of making me feel that despair.

I agree. I thought the tension was palpable. Beyond that, trying to surprise your audience just for the sake of surprising them is not great storytelling. The "twist" here was that we watched Jon running towards Bran, and wondered whether he was going to get there in time or whether Bran was going to do something and here comes Arya to do her thing. That being said, I just don't think they needed to have a bunch of "shocking deaths" to make it a great story. In fact, no death COULD have been shocking. I had seen people call every single character's death. To me, the episode was great because you felt the tension. 

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I really don't want another huge battle. To me, the ending should be more political. Sure, violence will be needed, but it shouldn't entail many thousand of casualties, given one side's leadership has no loyal followers beyond the purely short term transactional. An intelligently written ending will feature that reality.

I think there will at least be a reversal where Sansa, Tyrion and the crypt gang take center stage while the battle-heavy characters are sidelined and frustrated. I also don't really see why people are surprised by this. The entire show has told us that the end game is the throne. Beating the NK wasn't the end goal to me. 

We have seen a pure conqueror lead in Robert Baratheon and it didn't ensure longevity. We have seen a political maneuvering machine lead in Cersei and I don't think it will ensure longevity either (at the moment, she doesn't even have an heir). I think the only way this story ends and feels like an ending is if we have someone who hits both marks or has enough people around them to cover both. 

I also have said for a long time that Jon was facing north and focused on combat because that is what he knew. Sansa was facing south and focusing on political intrigue because that is what she knew. They were both right and they were both wrong. Sansa has seen it on her end. It is time for Jon to see the other side. 

48 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

The only thing that makes Cersei dangerous is she does not mind to be the queen of ashes.  She would not hesitate to kill and/or destroy everything as long as she is the last one sitting on the Iron Throne

This is a completely accurate description of her. There is nothing left for her. Power is power and she doesn't care about anything else.

31 minutes ago, Kabota said:

I think whatever struggle there is for King's Landing will be more of a battle of wits, Golden Company and dragons, notwithstanding. I think the folk down in the crypts who felt they had no particular strengths to offer at this juncture (Tyrion, Sansa, Varys) will be the ultimate heroes in besting Cersei. They know her best, after all, and Tyrion owes her. 

Agreed, as I noted above. I think the answer has to be a combination of the brutality and strength from this episode and the strengths of Team Crypt.

Having thought through it a bit more, I think Arya was perfect. Not only did her storyline lead directly to this point, they also told us from the beginning that this was not a war that could be won. This was not a head to head battle and it never could have been. It was an assassination. They had no chance in battle. The sole chance was getting to the Night King. Everyone knew it going in. The only character who could pull off and assassination was Arya.

The show hasn't been leading up to last night, it has been leading up to what comes next. Last night was a huge battle, but the final battle always had to be for Kings Landing. 

[ulkis]

edited.

Edited May 6, 2019 by ulkis

[kieyra]

Something I forgot till just now:

The score got bizarrely jazzy and jaunty at the very end. The upbeat piano stuff going on while the NK strode towards Bran sounded so bizarre and out of place for what was supposed to be a world-ending moment.