S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[Dobian]

Tormund sure knows how to turn Brienne on with his storytelling skills.

[QuantumMechanic]

3 hours ago, mac123x said:

You'll be safe in the crypts.  You'll be with the women and children in the crypts where it's safe.  I'll be in the crypts with my son Sam.  The crypts are the safest place in Winterfell...  Yeah, they're dead.  So many anvils dropping there.

Has show or book ever laid out how long someone has to be dead to not be able to be zombified? Or is there just no limit?  

[Brn2bwild]

It bugs me that they spent so much of this episode focused on whether Tyrion should remain Hand, and no time at all between Dany and Missandei, who in my mind is much more astute than Tyrion and should be Hand (or at least a high-level advisor).  Missandei, Grey Worm, and the others came to Winterfell for YOU, Dany!  You could at least remember they're there.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Brn2bwild

[Friendly kitty]

1 hour ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Has show or book ever laid out how long someone has to be dead to not be able to be zombified? Or is there just no limit?  

It seems to me that the only way out is to immediately burn the dead. Only then will they not turn into zombies.

36 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Missandei, Grey Worm, and the others came to Winterfell for YOU, Dany!  You could at least remember they're there.

That's why they think about what to do when the battle is over. Missandei and Gray Worm already felt that Deaneris was moving away from them. Now she has another life and other allies ... This is sad, but it often happens.

[RobertDeSneero]

This episode was not filler.  On the eve of a battle to save humanity, this episode established the humanity of every character and showed what they have to lose, what spark would be gone if they ended up not just dead but undead.  The point is to manipulate viewers into remembering why they should care about anyone who might die. As a viewer, I find it helpful to remind me how to tell apart the different white, dark-haired bearded guys.  If it's all just dense plot, the story is lesser.  The battle is coming.  We know it's coming.  The characters know it's coming.  By making us wait along with them, we can identify with their anxiety.  They just have to follow through and make the battle worth the wait.

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, AttackTurtle said:

That was a wonderful episode.   I loved that we had another “warmer” moment between Arya and the Hound.  The whole fireside chat group was an incredible mix of humor/heart (knighting Brienne).  

I didn’t think that Sansa was giving Theon gooey eyes, but that she fully understands that he is most likely to die by agreeing to be with Bran in addition to the fact that he did save her life.   No one can understand what she endured more than Theon,

I felt so bad for Dany in this episode.  She lays it out that she loves Jon, he gives her the cold shoulder, and then lays the truth on her at the end.  But I was glad to see it dawn in Sansa that WF needed Dany a lot more than Dany needed WF at that time.  

I felt bad for Dany,  too.  She arrived there with and because of Jon.  And he was clearly avoiding her.  I saw her looking for him when the Great Hall meeting broke up,  but he looked the other way and fled the room.  Then he avoided looking at her during the war council.  If she hadn't found him in the crypts,  she'd continue to be puzzled by his sudden change of heart/cold shoulder treatment. She's  one of my faves,  she deserves for Jon to be straight with her. Like her, I also noticed Jon's info is coming from his best friend and his brother. She accepted the truth of what he was saying pretty quick regardless. 

I'm glad she'll have a moment to digest the news. They both went into battle mode once the horn sounded. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Andromeda

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Friendly kitty said:

Missandei and Gray Worm already felt that Deaneris was moving away from them. Now she has another life and other allies ... This is sad, but it often happens.

How was Daenerys moving away from Missandei and Grey Worm in this episode?

The writers chose not to have Daenerys/Grey Worm/Missandei scenes in this episode, but there was strictly no indication of such a behavior. Daenerys dealt with yet another failure of her Hand, and her Hand is not new. She didn't actively look for Jorah over Grey Worm or Missandei to discuss her current situation; Jorah, who as an ally predates them btw, came to talk to her. Sansa had a personal problem with her, Daenerys dealt with her directly and personally. Same with Jon, who was avoiding her.

If anything, it was the opposite. Grey Worm and Missandei don't feel comfortable in her home country, Westeros -or at least in the racist North, maybe it would be different in Dorne- and they're thinking of moving away from their queen in order to find happiness in a better place for them. 

Daenerys wouldn't have a problem with them seeking happiness elsewhere, as Missandei explained last season, yes, but it's not the same as dropping them for "another life" (do you mean "better"? Because her life is pretty crappy right now) and other allies.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Rebky]

6 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Whooo hoooo! That was GOOD.  I figured from the beginning that they'd leave us on the cliffhanger just before the start of the battle.  But I did NOT think Jon was going to tell Dany the truth.  (But of course he would because why would he NOT say something wildly disconcerting to someone who basically flies her dragon by mind-control literally minutes before she mounts up?  Gods, Jon -- how have you survived this long?)

Now can we all just give a moment of thanks to the only person who provided a laugh in the entire episode?  To Tomund Giantsband -- I lift a glass of fermented milk!

I rewound that part a few times and laughed so hard I was in tears.  The shocked looks on everyone's faces was hysterical. Only dear Tormund could turn a dick measuring contest into such a spectacle!! 

[Minneapple]

40 minutes ago, Rebky said:

I rewound that part a few times and laughed so hard I was in tears.  The shocked looks on everyone's faces was hysterical. Only dear Tormund could turn a dick measuring contest into such a spectacle!! 

The look on Jaime's face during Tormund's story was priceless. One of the more epic scenes in GoT history and one of the funniest. 

[Efzee]

7 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Yeah, that surprised me too but I'm going to chalk it up to everyone's emotions being heightened pre-battle and also that the last time Sansa saw Theon he was a wreck of a man.  He had to be the LAST person she thought would come volunteer for the fight -- especially when he could realistically have argued that his place was at his sister's side.  So I'm calling her deeply moved by his devotion to House Stark.

3 hours ago, mac123x said:

I was referring to the dialog-free montage near the end that showed how everyone was passing their last night (Arya in bed with Gendry, etc.).  Sansa was with Theon, and the look she gave him had some heat to it.

I also wasn't sure how to interpret the looks/emotions between Theon and Sansa. We probably shouldn't forget they also grew up together and they all used to be good friends, her bond with him was probably tigher than with her bastard brother and two little brothers.

Familial or possible romantic feelings - I don't really care either way and could see it resulting in either, assuming they both survive. Theon might be the only man she'd feel safe with because he's the one who saved her from Ramsey and he's got no cock, so not as big as a "threat" than other men. Plus, she seemed pretty cynical about men/love in her scene with Dany (and, really, who can blame her after Joffrey, Ramsey and LF), so he might feel like a safe choice.

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Daenerys' reaction to the big news was in line with Emilia's interview re: not being the last Targaryen. Her disbelief didn't last long it seems, and she seemed more sad and upset about what it meant for her than anything. Both her discussion with Sansa and her discussion with Jon were interrupted, so imo it will either be a Jaime situation, or the battle is going to change everything, or both.

I found Jon's facial expression more telling than her reaction; felt to me like he was a little surprised she brought up the claim to the throne and not the fact that they're related. Of course, he probably doesn't know incest wouldn't be a shock to Dany since she always expected to (have to) marry her brother growing up.

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

This infuriates me. And he was standing with SAM. Not even Jon. And Jon didn’t even acknowledge his presence. It’s like Ghost is a mannequin. Horrible, horrible horrible. My only complaint with the episode.

No one acknowledged Ghost! I wouldn't  be surprised if the showrunners went back over the video of early season 8 to see if they could plop him in somewhere in post production after forgetting about him, meaning the whole scene was filmed without the actors being aware Ghost was around.

4 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Jon has accepted his Targ heritage too quick imo. Don't buy it and feels like they've ignored some tough questions.

I don't think it was too quickly. All his life he's been treated as the bastard of Winterfell/Ned Stark and he's always wanted to know more about his mother. I think we only saw him ask Ned that one time when they parted ways in season 1 (Jon going to the Wall and Ned going to KL), but IIRC he's asked several times in the books. And he never got a straight answer. He probably thought he'd never find out the truth after Ned was killed...

And then he learns that not only was he born out of love, he was also given away by his mother out of love (so Robert wouldn't kill him) and raised by Ned out of love - he wasn't the result of a one-night stand between Ned and some wench while he was out fighting a war. And not only is he not a bastard, but he's actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

He probably feels like everything fell into place for him now that he knows the truth about his parentage and he's no longer a bastard (or the former KitN), but someone who was destined for greatness.

[anamika]

As a book reader, I like that Theon and Bran are going to make their last stand at the Weirwood tree. In ADwD, Bran communicates with Theon through the Weirwood and reminds Theon of who he was. If Theon's story ends there, defending Bran,  it would be tragic but also fitting. 

[cambridgeguy]

Arya's going to regret saying she looks forward to seeing another of Death's faces - as awesome as she is she, like her sister, is a little too confident in her own abilities.  The world's greatest assassin is still totally screwed if a swarm of dead people rush you.

Quote

I also wasn't sure how to interpret the looks/emotions between Theon and Sansa. We probably shouldn't forget they also grew up together and they all used to be good friends, her bond with him was probably tigher than with her bastard brother and two little brothers. 

S1 Sansa would not have been close to Theon.  She wasn't even close to her bastard brother so why would she be buddies with a hostage? 

Edited April 22, 2019 by cambridgeguy

[YaddaYadda]

6 hours ago, GraceK said:

Very interesting article about the song Jenny of old stones. Not a big fan of Joanna Robinson, but she is extremely knowledgeable on book lore.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/04/game-of-thrones-song-podrick-jenny-song-meaning-books-jenny-oldstones

She sure messed up when she said that Duncan abdicated and his brother Aerys took the throne.

In any case, the song was really beautiful and as someone who believes that Rhaegar wrote it and sung it, it made me feel like he was all over the place during those last minutes. It did tie nicely with Sam's weird rambling during the war council.

Edited April 22, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Quark]

It's probably just me, but in the last two episodes I feel like there is so much smugness coming from the actors on this show, it's hard for me to enjoy it.

What I find amusing though is how no one seems to have noticed the giant undead ice dragon that the Night's King possesses. Either he is a tactical genius or everyone is blind.

[Haleth]

What a wonderful episode!  It was like the writers had all the characters in front of them and wanted each one of them to clear the air with the other characters.  So many dialogues we were waiting for!  So many moments to savor in just one hour!  Breaks my heart that many of these characters will be dead before the end.

The knighting of Ser Brienne was a lovely moment.  I teared up for her.

[peggy06]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Gorgeous episode for the most part. Brienne being knighted was wonderful.

Was Tyrion saying that whoremongering was no longer an option for him (and not elaborating) supposed to mean something?

He then said something about the downside of bettering oneself, implying he's gone beyond the phase where that could bring satisfaction - he has a higher purpose, beliefs, personal standards, isn't just a cynic who doesn't care about anything

[MadMouse]

20 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

She sure messed up when she said that Duncan abdicated and his brother Aerys took the throne.

In any case, the song was really beautiful and as someone who believes that Rhaegar wrote it and sung it, it made me feel like he was all over the place during those last minutes. It did tie nicely with Sam's weird rambling during the war council.

They cut Jaehaerys the second from the show. So it jumps from Aegon the fifth to Aerys the second. Guessing show wise that makes Duncan and Aerys brothers.

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

It doesn't exactly paint the Starks in the best light that all their subjects in the North are so blatantly racist that even little girls are basically like "eww brown people" when Missandei got too close to them.  I mean...... yikes.  No wonder Grey Worm and Missandei want to get as far away as possible when the war is over.

But they don't like Dany either.  I think it's been poorly portrayed but I believe it's more a matter of Northerners being suspicious of any foreigners.  Winterfell is so remote and insular I doubt any of the small folk had ever seen anyone from outside the North before Robert and his entourage came.  And they saw how well that worked out.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Haleth

[nodorothyparker]

I'm trying to remember that the North is much more geographically isolated than the rest of the kingdoms and that we're told over and over again on the page what a job it is to invade it or how impossible it is for various reasons for outsiders to hold it.  And that historically very little good has come of said outsiders showing up there, even as they're suddenly stuck playing host to two huge foreign armies, two giant fire-breathing flying lizards, and all kinds of other assorted people they happen to share a continent with but little else.  This as they're being told that all the monsters of their childhood stories are real and coming to kill them, so they're probably fucked either way.

Whether or not it's intentional on the part of the showrunners, it's coming across as the Northerners being a pretty xenophobic bunch giving the show's only characters of color dirty looks just for being there.

[GodsBeloved]

10 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Jaime/Sansa/Dany/Jon - Something about this scene made me fear he's going to switch sides, if he survives. He's accounted for his actions with Bran, but he's still maintaining what he did to Ned and his men was a-okay. It was not, it was an escalation of hostilities that no one ever commanded him to do. Cat did something stupid in taking Tyrion, but no one declared war in that act's wake.
 

When Jaime said we were at war, I thought what?! If there was a war, he was the one who started it by pushing Bran out the window.

[Sakura12]

If Jon were to declare himself King he would not have that much support either. He has his friends and family. Since the rest of the Northerners are only loyal until they don't like a decision their leader makes. No one in the South really knows who he is. Dany's army of Unsullied and Dorthaki would leave, they are following Dany not him. 

So Sam thinking people would follow Jon is naive. He knows him as a good man to everyone else he's a bastard. While Dany's the mother of Dragons. Even if he can ride one, the dragons were born because of her. She has that story being passed around the 7 kingdoms. They don't even know about her immunity to fire power. 

However the way this season is going they are making to seem like Dany is power mad which really wasn't the case before. Look how long it took her to get to Westeros. She kept staying to help her adopted country. 

[FemmyV]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

What was with Sam's random monologue in the war council meeting? I was confused about what he was trying to say. I think even Bran was sitting there going ....wat?

I think they wanted to ape Sam's speech about stories and storytelling from LotR/TTT but didn't want to get caught lifting it outright.

[FemmyV]

16 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

If Jon were to declare himself King he would not have that much support either. He has his friends and family. Since the rest of the Northerners are only loyal until they don't like a decision their leader makes. No one in the South really knows who he is. Dany's army of Unsullied and Dorthaki would leave, they are following Dany not him. 

So Sam thinking people would follow Jon is naive. He knows him as a good man to everyone else he's a bastard. While Dany's the mother of Dragons. Even if he can ride one, the dragons were born because of her. She has that story being passed around the 7 kingdoms. They don't even know about her immunity to fire power. 

However the way this season is going they are making to seem like Dany is power mad which really wasn't the case before. Look how long it took her to get to Westeros. She kept staying to help her adopted country. 

I fear you may be correct about Dany being written as power mad, although, atm, I'd say every Northerner is being written as fearing Dany is mad. And we've already seen Tyrion and Varys being written as fearful she could be.

Then again: "The dragon must have three heads." Who will be #3?

[nodorothyparker]

41 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

When Jaime said we were at war, I thought what?! If there was a war, he was the one who started it by pushing Bran out the window.

Gods know we can and have argued for pages over the seasons about what ultimately caused the war, from the twincest causing the succession crisis in the first place to Littlefinger orchestrating the murder of Jon Arryn and framing the Lannisters to the Starks.  At the time though, Jaime was reacting to Catelyn snatching Tyrion out of a public place and spiriting him away to the Eyrie to put him on trial for his life while leaving breadcrumbs that she'd taken him to Winterfell instead.  Again, nearly entirely on Littlefinger's say-so.  The Lannisters considered that an act of aggression, so at least in Jaime's mind they were at war.

[benteen]

It might have been another episode of set-up but I really enjoyed it.  I'm glad the writers have allowed the characters to have these moments together and the actors have shined.

-Jaime and Brienne was always one of the strongest relationships on this show and always delivered some of the show's finest moments.  Loved the knighting ceremony and GW's wordless acting really delivered.  Loved that she was the one who defended him at trial and appreciated Sansa trusting Brienne's word completely.

-I'm glad Tyrion got some good material in this episode.  He was starting to feel like a fifth wheel after last week.  Kind of like how Show Varys is completely useless unlike his book counterpart.

-While I liked Tyrion saying he wished Tywin was still alive so that he could see his two sons defending Winterfell, I wish he had said instead that he would have loved to have seen his father's reaction to fighting an enemy he couldn't intimidate by playing the Rains of Castamere.

-Loved the scene around the fireplace.  This show can always throw characters together and come up with gold.

-Arya and Gendry worked I thought and played out realistically.  I think Arya is too damaged for a normal relationship but she's human.  She knows Gendry and is attracted to him (though I don't think she loves him romantically) and she certainly didn't have to twist Gendry's arm for him to reciprocate.  Arya got to have this moment on her terms unlike Dany or Sansa.

-I bought the Sansa and Theon reaction too.  Those two have been through a lot together.

-Was glad to see Jorah and Lyanna share a scene.  Was not expecting Sam to give him Heartsbane (I actually thought Tormund would end up with it so that he could fight by Brienne's side) but it was a GREAT choice and brought things full circle.  I don't feel good about Jorah's chances next week.  I suspect he, Theon and Beric (because nobody cares about Beric) will die in the battle to come.  Just my opinion.

Bring on the battle!

[Enigma X]

The reunion between Theon and Sansa was unexpectedly (for me) a wonderful scene. I think the bond between them is surviving Ramsay. I don’t think there was any romance there at all.

Tormund! Love me some Tormund.

I don’t think that Dany is mad but really don’t like the way they are writing her this season thus far. I like both Sansa and Dany. So, I am really not here for the Sansa/Dany debate. In the end, I don’t think she will turn out to be mad, but the writers want to plant a seed That she could be.

Arya did not use Gendry. She flat out told him the deal. 

I don’t like that Bran is”something else.” I would rather they had gone with him being “something more,” but still Bran. I am liking his input thus far though.

Since we are low on in time, I am glad that we are getting the Jon secret out quickly. If we had more time, I would love for more notes to be hit. Also, I can believe that not much proof is needed to convince anyone that L+R=J. I mean remember Ned’s fancy paternity test of Cersei’s kids?

Oh my poor Jorah. I do believe he is a goner. 

Yeah. The North is pretty racist. They may not like any of the people who came with Dany, but it is clearly being written that they have a particular problem with Missandei and Greyworm.

Overall, I liked this episode but I am not one who needs action all the time to find an episode enjoyable.

[GodsBeloved]

7 hours ago, Dobian said:

Tormund sure knows how to turn Brienne on with his storytelling skills.

He gets an A for effort LOL

[mammaM]

"The things we do for love".  Freaky ass Bran has become my favorite😂😂

Ok.....4 episodes left. Next week is the battle with the Night King. Then, assuming "we" won, an episode traveling to kings landing, an episode fighting Cersei and an episode wrapping things up. That's a lot to cram into 4 episodes. 

Am I terrible because I almost want the Night King to win just to wipe the smirk off of Cersei's face?

[Azi]

29 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I don’t think that Dany is mad but really don’t like the way they are writing her this season thus far. I like both Sansa and Dany. So, I am really not here for the Sansa/Dany debate. In the end, I don’t think she will turn out to be mad, but the writers want to plant a seed That she could be.

Same here. I'm a Dany fan and I feel like there was a shift in the writing and it seems to be a really clumsy attempt to ramp up the "Omg is she going mad?" speculation... I don't think they're actually going there and Dany still being as able as ever to actually LISTEN to her advisors is a good indication of that, but it's really annoying to me.
(I also like Sansa, so fandom extra irritating these days.)

I've decided to simply ignore all interviews and BTS stuffs for now, cause I assume 50% is them lying through their teeth or hyping things that are not actually there.

[Cheerwyn]

My husband noticed this and I didn't see it posted anywhere yet.

Both the little girl who Davos speaks with in Ep. 2 and the boy that runs into Winterfell to watch the troops marching at the beginning of Ep. 1 are carrying a leather satchel and wearing a brown cloak. 

Could they be little sparrows or Faceless men?  The leather bag looks like the one that Arya carries.  There is some sort of insignia on the bag that can be seen as the little girl walks away, but it's hard to make out.

[tangerine95]

I don't think they're actually writing Dany as power hungry or mad at all.This episode she pardoned Jaime,forgave Tyrion and kept him as hand,listened to advice from Jorah,Sansa and Jon,she tried to bond with Sansa,she didn't leave the war after she found out about Cersei like was much speculated.The fact that she still wants to be queen,I honestly don't see the big deal.She clearly made the war with the NK a priority and knows she could die in it before ever reaching the throne and she's still there.

But I do agree they want people to believe she could be going the Mad Queen route so they interrupt her reaction to Jon's parentage and make it ambiguous enough that you can interpret it a few ways and they have other characters question her.But imo it's very obviously misdirection and pretty weak set up if she was going to be an antagonist especially on the level of Cersei.

[KungFuBunny]

8 hours ago, Dobian said:

Tormund sure knows how to turn Brienne on with his storytelling skills.

I loved every expression on Brienne's face. She has absolutely no idea what to say to him.

Brienne even with her warrior gear - is a LADY - in the way she speaks and in the way she interacts with others out of combat - it's very feminine and proper

Tormund is wooing her in the Wildling fashion and Brienne while she can't look away from the train wreck, she is too much of a lady to cut him down/embarrass him.

[Lady Iris]

5 hours ago, Efzee said:

Familial or possible romantic feelings - I don't really care either way and could see it resulting in either, assuming they both survive. Theon might be the only man she'd feel safe with because he's the one who saved her from Ramsey and he's got no cock, so not as big as a "threat" than other men. Plus, she seemed pretty cynical about men/love in her scene with Dany (and, really, who can blame her after Joffrey, Ramsey and LF), so he might feel like a safe choice.

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't put it past Ramsey that he told Sansa about taking "Theon's favorite toy". I was a bit surprised that we didn't get a scene of the Stark kids all together but that's a small nitpick on my part. They were all rather busy and such.

This is definitely going down as a fave ep of mine. I want to get home and watch it again tonight. So many wonderful moments. I read something somewhere that some people will be mad because its another ep without action and others would love it because it was about these characters that we love so much. I'm definitely in the latter half. We all know the poop is gonna hit the fan next week and I for one really enjoyed all the interactions we were treated to seeing before everything goes to hell.

Mad props to that glorious kissed by fire ginger wilding we all love so much. In a show that has had few precious moments of levity Tormund just knocks it out of the park.

[KungFuBunny]

Dany said something along the lines all my life I have been waiting to take the Iron Throne.

I thought the story was Vyserys and his pregnant mother were whisked into hiding. Dany was born, mom died in childbirth, and Vyserys would be King if they ever had the chance. Dany was never meant to be Queen - I don't think Vyserys was ever going to marry her. Dany was to be married off to the highest bidder - which came sooner than later as Vyserys used her to buy an army.

The "All my life" is a crock

[absnow54]

1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

Since we are low on in time, I am glad that we are getting the Jon secret out quickly. If we had more time, I would love for more notes to be hit. Also, I can believe that not much proof is needed to convince anyone that L+R=J. I mean remember Ned’s fancy paternity test of Cersei’s kids?

I feel like Jon riding a dragon should have been the confirmation, but the show decided that that wasn't a big deal.

[Enigma X]

3 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I feel like Jon riding a dragon should have been the confirmation, but the show decided that that wasn't a big deal.

I thought it was going to be the confirmation at first.

[jade.black]

I loved how well they captured that feeling you get on the eve of a massively important event. Everyone awake and wired, not wanting to leave each other to be alone, not wanting the morning to come, saying and doing all of the things that you might never get the chance to again. This is why it was all the more jarring to see Gendry sound asleep after sexing up Arya. How do you manage to pass out on a night like this?!

[Misplaced]

Wow, the writers are not holding Dany's punches.  I agree with posters upthread that we're being led to look at her sideways.  Like, are you a tyrant or what?

One recurring theme I noticed = Dany being weirdly surprised at the deep&abiding loyalty among the Starks and their supporters.  The way Sansa accepted Brienne's testimony without hesitation and backed Jaime on Brienne's word.  The way Theon deliberately turned to Sansa and said he had come to fight for her, after Dany asked him why he wasn't in the Iron Islands.  Jaime and Theon weren't exactly friends to the Starks in the past ... and Dany's own questioning of Tyrion's ability stands in real counterpoint to the Starks' acceptance of Jaime and Theon, imo.  

There's something here about different types of loyalty but I can't quite put my finger on it.  Maybe it's that Brienne and Theon and the NW and Sam etc etc are loyal to the Starks even when the Starks are basically powerless, and this concept is new to Dany?  I'm not sure.  

Arya has a double-ended Darth-Maul dragonglasssabre! 

Anyway fantabulous episode.  Next week is going to be pure carnage.  

[jade.black]

Oh! And I also wanted to ask (given all the discussion of Ghost here), are we ever going to see Nymeria again?! That's the reunion I've been waiting for, for what... four books and seven seasons now?

ETA: Just looked it up and apparently they reunited in season 7 and I've completely forgotten about it. Oops. Still would like to see her back before the end of the series again.

Edited April 22, 2019 by jade.black

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

Yeah. The North is pretty racist. They may not like any of the people who came with Dany, but it is clearly being written that they have a particular problem with Missandei and Greyworm.

That's what happens where her named entourage is so small.  You've got Dany (she's the queen so you have to maintain a minimum amount of respect), Tyrion (see spitting in this episode), Varys (ignored), Jorah (a fellow Northerner), Greyworm, and Missandei.  So yeah, they're going to get the brunt of the hisses.  If anything Missandei should be getting more of it because Greyworm is a seasoned warrior so why would you want to provoke him?

[Lady Iris]

 Is it possible that the children were shy with Missandei because she's a stranger and not necessarily because of racist undertones?

[Efzee]

27 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Dany said something along the lines all my life I have been waiting to take the Iron Throne.

I thought the story was Vyserys and his pregnant mother were whisked into hiding. Dany was born, mom died in childbirth, and Vyserys would be King if they ever had the chance. Dany was never meant to be Queen - I don't think Vyserys was ever going to marry her. Dany was to be married off to the highest bidder - which came sooner than later as Vyserys used her to buy an army.

The "All my life" is a crock

I believe it was clearer in the books, but Dany did expect to end up marrying her brother when she came of age. That's why being sold married off to Drogo was a bigger shock than an arranged marriage for a Westerosi; the Targaryans were all about intermarrying (not necessarily between siblings) to keep the "blood of the dragon" bloodline pure. And there is Viserys, just handing her over to a "savage" to get his throne.

12 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

Wow, the writers are not holding Dany's punches.  I agree with posters upthread that we're being led to look at her sideways.  Like, are you a tyrant or what?

One recurring theme I noticed = Dany being weirdly surprised at the deep&abiding loyalty among the Starks and their supporters.  The way Sansa accepted Brienne's testimony without hesitation and backed Jaime on Brienne's word.  The way Theon deliberately turned to Sansa and said he had come to fight for her, after Dany asked him why he wasn't in the Iron Islands.  Jaime and Theon weren't exactly friends to the Starks in the past ... and Dany's own questioning of Tyrion's ability stands in real counterpoint to the Starks' acceptance of Jaime and Theon, imo.  

There's something here about different types of loyalty but I can't quite put my finger on it.  Maybe it's that Brienne and Theon and the NW and Sam etc etc are loyal to the Starks even when the Starks are basically powerless, and this concept is new to Dany?  I'm not sure.  

Loyalty in itself is a foreign concept to her. Sure, she's got her people now, but most of them only follow(ed) her because they saw her become the mother of dragons, be the unburnt and/or be the breaker of chains. That in itself is, of course, reason enough to believe she's the true queen/khaleesi or whatever, but now she's seeing these northerners have such a strong loyalty to each other and/or forgiving each other for some pretty heinous acts because they "go way back".

[stagmania]

34 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I feel like Jon riding a dragon should have been the confirmation, but the show decided that that wasn't a big deal.

I thought it was a really obvious missing beat in that Dany/Jon scene. He says he knows it's true - and then doesn't say anything else. Would have been a very natural time to point out some of his Targaryen traits that they've both seen. 

24 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

One recurring theme I noticed = Dany being weirdly surprised at the deep&abiding loyalty among the Starks and their supporters.  The way Sansa accepted Brienne's testimony without hesitation and backed Jaime on Brienne's word.  The way Theon deliberately turned to Sansa and said he had come to fight for her, after Dany asked him why he wasn't in the Iron Islands.  Jaime and Theon weren't exactly friends to the Starks in the past ... and Dany's own questioning of Tyrion's ability stands in real counterpoint to the Starks' acceptance of Jaime and Theon, imo.  

I didn't think it was weird she was surprised - Sansa was being kind of inconsistent here. Last week she was saying trusting Cersei is foolish and dunking on Tyrion for being dumb; this week she was praising Tyrion's intelligence and easily accepting that they should trust Cersei's twin. I don't blame Dany for not being able to get a read on her.

[AshleyN]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I love this episode. The show has become so plot driven the last couple of seasons that it often feels like they've lost track of the characters, who's actions and decisions seem dictated by what the plot requires more than anything. Using the potential end of the world as an excuse to devote a full episode to just the characters -- their wants, needs, history, and relationships was simultaneously refreshing and incredibly effective at creating a sense of doom as we realize that a lot of these people are going to meet their ends next week.

This one hasn't really been mentioned, but I just wanted to say that I really loved the scene with the last of the Night's Watchmen. It was a great throwback, and seeing Jon actually laughing feels like such a rare thing these days. Even with the world about to end, you can see how at home he feels with Sam and Edd.

Also, this episode was the most Tyrion has felt like Tyrion in ages. Part of it is being reunited with Jaime, because Tyrion (along with Peter Dinklage) is always at his best when he's playing off of family members. But I also really liked him questioning Bran about what happened to him, a reminder of his natural curiosity and intellect (aka the traits that made him stand out in the beginning, but have been kind of forgotten about the last couple of seasons). Between that and the reminders of how dumb he's been lately, I'm hoping he'll get a chance to do something soon to remind us of why he was "the clever one" in the first place.

Edited April 22, 2019 by AshleyN

[quarks]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

But they don't like Dany either.  I think it's been poorly portrayed but I believe it's more a matter of Northerners being suspicious of any foreigners.  Winterfell is so remote and insular I doubt any of the small folk had ever seen anyone from outside the North before Robert and his entourage came.  And they saw how well that worked out.

They also don't like Tyrion, so it's not just Dany, Missandrei and Grey Worm.

What we didn't get, though, was reactions to Varys - positive or negative - or any scenes of Tyrion or Dany trying to approach kids in this episode. I think that helped create an impression that the Winterfell kids were...shall we be kind, and say insular? Or, as several viewers understandably read that scene, racist. 

My impression is that those two kids are about to be killed in the crypts, though, so, see what this sort of attitude gains you, kids?

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

However the way this season is going they are making to seem like Dany is power mad which really wasn't the case before. Look how long it took her to get to Westeros. She kept staying to help her adopted country. 

I don't think I would characterize Dany as power mad (even in this season). As she correctly pointed out in this episode again, she could easily be trying to conquer Kings Landing and gaining power right now, but she's instead up in the North, getting ready to fight the army of the dead. 

But they have shown her conquering various foreign cities which - as people pointed out at the time - she had no birth or legal right to, and then crucifying/burning alive many of their leaders. They weren't the cities she grew up in, either. And sure, most of those people were either brutal slaveowners, Dothraki murderers and rapists or Randall Tarly, so she wasn't just killing people off as part of conquest/gaining power. But she was conquering them and focused on gaining the throne. She's not power-mad, but definitely interested in it. And her reaction to Jon's "So, about my parents" showed that yeah, that's still one of her main motivations. 

With Sansa/Theon - the books state that Theon had some hopes of marrying Sansa before Ned took off for King's Landing and everything kinda collapsed. On the show, though, I wasn't getting a romantic vibe out of this, more a "Yay, you aren't dead!" with a "But wow, you will be in a few more episodes, so let's enjoy soup while we can!"

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, quarks said:

I don't think I would characterize Dany as power mad (even in this season). As she correctly pointed out in this episode again, she could easily be trying to conquer Kings Landing and gaining power right now, but she's instead up in the North, getting ready to fight the army of the dead.

If Dany is serious about her claims to the throne, then protecting her kingdom and its people is her primary responsibility as ruler. This isn't "Jon's" war, as she phrased it to Sansa. This is a war for the survival of everyone in Westeros. If she's only interested in conquering and not actually doing the job of Queen (which means doing inconvenient things, like protecting your citizens from certain death and zombiefication), then she'd best step aside and let those who really take the job seriously do it.

[KungFuBunny]

Bran said the NK knows where he is because he "marked" him.

The reason given for why the NK wants Bran dead - is because he holds the memories of what ALL beings on the planets or just all of mankind?

Dream scenario: If it's only the placement of the mark on Bran's arm is how the NK can track him not that the NK is in Bran's bloodstream, they should cut off Bran's arm, give it to Arya. Let Arya using Bran's face (she can take the face of "live" people too right?) sit in the chair by the Godswood waiting for the NK. Then when the NK comes along she can poke him with the spear.

Not that any of this would work. LOL

Edited April 22, 2019 by KungFuBunny

[Tryangle]

41 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

 Is it possible that the children were shy with Missandei because she's a stranger and not necessarily because of racist undertones?

Possibly, but the showrunners appear to be taking it a bit over the top, maybe as a reaction to current events. Or they're trying to give some kind of motivation for Missandei's feelings about the North with this bit of overkill. We haven't seen anything even approaching this with the likes of Brienne or Davos, for example.

[Efzee]

12 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

The reason given for why the NK wants Bran dead - is because he holds the memories of what ALL beings on the planets or just all of mankind?

I felt that was a pretty weak reason. The NK could just kill everyone else in that case and Bran would eventually die, even if  he wasn't a cripple who has to rely on others to take care of him.

I really hope the NK has a better motivation than that, or at least the Other do in the books (if GRRM ever writes/publishes them).

At this point though, I'd even take Bran mistakenly interpreting the reason as it being the memories of all mankind - and it's actually that among those memories is the way to kill/defeat the NK.

10 minutes ago, Tryangle said:

Possibly, but the showrunners appear to be taking it a bit over the top, maybe as a reaction to current events. Or they're trying to give some kind of motivation for Missandei's feelings about the North with this bit of overkill. We haven't seen anything even approaching this with the likes of Brienne or Davos, for example.

I don't know if the showrunners are purposely going for racism, but I feel it's important to point out that both Brienne and Davos came with "Starks" - Brienne is Sansa's protector and Davos was a good advisor to Jon (and it's possible the northerners don't even know Davos isn't from the North, because didn't he come to WF via the Wall?). The same way Royce is probably accepted - for his men and loyalty to Sansa/the Vale's relation to the Starks via Catelyn's side of the family.

Tyrion is a Lannister and, truthfully, kinda deserved getting spat on considering what his family has done to the Starks/North. Tyrion is also Dany's Hand - not just a supporter to the foreign Targ queen, but could also seen as a "turncoat" and kinslayer.

Missandei and Grey Worm are both from Dany's inner circle and unlike those mentioned above, are not Westerosi (just like they think of Dany as foreign, despite being born in Westeros). They didn't take to Dany either but at least she's got two dragons to keep people on their toes around her...

[Maximum Taco]

23 minutes ago, Tryangle said:

Possibly, but the showrunners appear to be taking it a bit over the top, maybe as a reaction to current events. Or they're trying to give some kind of motivation for Missandei's feelings about the North with this bit of overkill. We haven't seen anything even approaching this with the likes of Brienne or Davos, for example.

Fair point, but also it should be considered that Brienne and Davos keep more reputable company than Missandei. 

Both Brienne and Davos are native Westerosi and kept company with the Baratheons, a family that has been the ally of the Starks for a long time and never has raised arms against them. And then later pledged themselves directly to Sansa and Jon. 

Missandei, while a peaceful person from a peaceful people, came to Winterfell in the company of a woman whose father burned their lord alive, and who keeps a Lannister as her chief advisor, and two fire breathing monsters out of legend, and a horde of Dothraki, who are regarded (some may say appropriately from their past deeds) as raping pillaging lunatics. 

These children were probably raised on tales of their brave lord Ned Stark who with his noble friend Robert Baratheon dethroned an evil king, Aerys Targaryen. These children were probably raised on tales of Dothraki screamers who would come and carry them off and enslave them if they misbehaved.

Is the North racist? Yes of course they are, but it's hard to judge an insular society for not changing overnight. That just doesn't happen. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Maximum Taco