S03.E05: Jeremy Bearimy

[mammaM]

4 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Nope. He says "Tahani I thought I heard your voice" (which doesn't make sense because she wasn't the one speaking, but I'm nitpicking). Then asks her "Ready to go?" and the episode ends with everyone realizing that they had totally forgotten about him.

Then Eleanor pulls out her phone, starts recording, points it at Tahani and says , "Go". I couldn't stop laughing

[Ceindreadh]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

My stupid DVR cut off just as Larry Hemsworth walked in. Did anything happen after that?

I wonder if any of the real Hemsworths are even aware of this show.

Damn, Chidi is jacked.

I think my favorite part was Michael trying to type. "Wait, where's the H? Oh, here it is. Look, I typed Micahl! Backspace . . . backspace . . . backspace."

 

4 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Nope. He says "Tahani I thought I heard your voice" (which doesn't make sense because she wasn't the one speaking, but I'm nitpicking). Then asks her "Ready to go?" and the episode ends with everyone realizing that they had totally forgotten about him.

And Eleanor has her phone out ready to record whatever Tahani was going to tell him. 

 

Heh, the bar Eleanor was at was called ‘Drinking Nemo’

[Sunshinegal]

I second whoever says that Chidi needs to be the new Captain America.  I wonder how the end of the season will go with the group just doing good deeds to make the world a better place.  I know that there will still be challenges.  And setbacks.  And I think that we will see the actual Good Place at some point, I just don't know when. 

This show has a great ensemble cast (so did Parks and Rec and Brooklyn Nine Nine). 

[Loandbehold]

8 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

And then Janet saying, “There’s my birthday!!”.

After listening to the podcast, I rewatched the episode and Janet doesn't look at the board when she points to her birthday.

 

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

Heh, the bar Eleanor was at was called ‘Drinking Nemo’

Per the podcast, practically all the places included "Nemo" including the bank. 

[arc]

I kept wondering where Simone was, but hand to god I really did forget about Larry.

[Mabinogia]

20 minutes ago, arc said:

I kept wondering where Simone was, but hand to god I really did forget about Larry.

You and me both. When he popped his head in it took a moment then I was like "Oh, right, him" then I was like "Oh, wait, poor Larry!" Totally forgot they were leaving together. I hope he has a therapist on retainer. 

[Ailianna]

7 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Or maybe even comedy...

You could be right!

2 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

Per the podcast, practically all the places included "Nemo" including the bank. 

When I read that, I realized--FNB--Finding Nemo Bank.  So many details!

[cpcathy]

The podcast said it was Financing Nemo.

[chitowngirl]

4 hours ago, arc said:

I kept wondering where Simone was, but hand to god I really did forget about Larry.

He really is the forgotten Hemsworth!

[Affogato]

On 10/19/2018 at 7:47 PM, Wanda said:

Will Simone get a chance to say she wants to fix poor broken Chidi? Or at least be one of the people they he?

Maybe one of their good deeds is setting Simone up with Larry. 

[Tetraneutron]

I wonder if /how they’ll cope with everyone they even knew being, technically, dead for centuries. Simone? Dead. Larry? Dead. 

[Minneapple]

Four days later and I'm still giggling about Chidi's peep chili.

[SomeTameGazelle]

3 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

I wonder if /how they’ll cope with everyone they even knew being, technically, dead for centuries. Simone? Dead. Larry? Dead. 

The point of the explanation of Jeremy Bearimy time was to confirm that the humans are on earth in their own time regardless of what they experienced in the afterlife. So there is no reason to assume that Simone and Larry are now or have ever been dead. If they find any of their friends and family have died, it will have been a comparatively recent event.

[Capricasix]

I wonder if any of the addresses was 32 Wallaby Way, Sydney ? (are they in Sydney, or Melbourne?)

[Desperately Random]

 I was enjoying watching the six interacting for most of the episode that I forgot about both Simone and Larry. Not even when Tahani came in and said she married Jason did I think about poor Larry. I think Larry is going to accept Tahani's marriage to Jason very quickly. I think he'll say "well why would you want to marry me anyway?" Guy has the worst case of poor self-esteem that I've ever seen.

 I love Jenna pointing to the board and saying "that's my birthday". She's really is becoming one of my favorite characters this season.

[Blakeston]

I've assumed all along that Chidi was ripped, just from the way he fills out his shirts. The big surprise for me was that the makers of the show were willing to show us his body. Unless he has one in a billion genes, it really makes no sense for him to be jacked like that.

None of this should be construed as a complaint, by the way.

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I've assumed all along that Chidi was ripped, just from the way he fills out his shirts. The big surprise for me was that the makers of the show were willing to show us his body. Unless he has one in a billion genes, it really makes no sense for him to be jacked like that.

None of this should be construed as a complaint, by the way.

See, it makes perfect sense to me that he'd be ripped (and no, genetics cannot do that). It is logical to exercise to combat anxiety, and one could argue (or at least endlessly debate, as is Chidi's wont) that it is morally upright to maintain peak physical health so as to not divert medical resources from those who need them.

[Tetraneutron]

21 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I've assumed all along that Chidi was ripped, just from the way he fills out his shirts. The big surprise for me was that the makers of the show were willing to show us his body. Unless he has one in a billion genes, it really makes no sense for him to be jacked like that.

None of this should be construed as a complaint, by the way.

It makes more sense for him to be jacked like that than for Eleanor and Jason to have the bodies they do, looking like hot actors instead of trashbags who we've seen eat terribly. It's pretty easy to see Chidi come to the conclusion that maintaining his health is a moral necessity. We've seen how he obsesses over almond milk. 

[marketdoctor]

I also have to give thanks to the writers for effectively summarizing the major schools of ethical thought.  There is a lot of detail they use in this show.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

See, it makes perfect sense to me that he'd be ripped (and no, genetics cannot do that). It is logical to exercise to combat anxiety, and one could argue (or at least endlessly debate, as is Chidi's wont) that it is morally upright to maintain peak physical health so as to not divert medical resources from those who need them.

We've never seen him show any inclination toward working out, though, have we? Everything about him screams that he's a bookworm with no interest in pumping iron, or consuming loads or protein.

If he felt it was morally correct to exercise, I don't see him choosing weightlifting as his chosen method. I could maybe picture him on a treadmill or elliptical, which would at least allow him to read while he works out.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Blakeston

[ClareWalks]

12 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

We've never seen him show any inclination toward working out, though, have we? Everything about him screams that he's a bookworm with no interest in pumping iron, or consuming loads or protein.

True that we have not seen him work out in a flashback (I'm assuming in the afterlife they don't really have to maintain their physiques, although who knows, the Hot Mailman went to the gym all the time). Maybe they will address it in a future episode.

[Lugal]

On 10/20/2018 at 3:16 PM, arc said:

I kept wondering where Simone was, but hand to god I really did forget about Larry.

Yeah, I kinda did that too.

On 10/19/2018 at 4:09 PM, SomeTameGazelle said:

I don't think you can have both the 16-year-old and Eleanor referring to her as untalented and have both be good jokes. And I think they made the right choice between them -- Eleanor insulting a preschooler is funnier than a 16-year-old who draws like one.

My favorite part was Michael wildly trying to fix the situation and thinking that killing the humans was the best option. He wasn't in the least sadistic about it but as a demon he thought it seemed reasonable and feasible.

I just assumed the 16 year old drew it when she was a preschooler.

Michael's idea of killing them it was cool because it's the reasoning of someone who knew that death wasn't the end.  In his mind it's not a matter of ending their lives, but more getting them from one place to another, so he can grab them before they go to the Bad Place.

8 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Four days later and I'm still giggling about Chidi's peep chili.

I keep joking to friends about it.  "If you're going to the store, pick up some peeps and M&M's, I'm making Nihilism Chili."

[April Bloodgate]

On 10/18/2018 at 7:51 PM, phalange said:

Jeremy Bearimy = wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

Yep, that's where my mind went too.

[Ailianna]

10 hours ago, Lugal said:

I just assumed the 16 year old drew it when she was a preschooler.

Fred Booth (the dad) said she drew it for him 6 months ago when he started the new job.

[Loandbehold]

17 hours ago, marketdoctor said:

I also have to give thanks to the writers for effectively summarizing the major schools of ethical thought.  There is a lot of detail they use in this show.

Even in the midst of his meltdown, Chidi was able to do that in only a few sentences. Total.

I posted an article in the media section that deals w/ the pros and cons of this question from an ethical standpoint before coming down w/ the definitive answer.

[Amarsir]

On 10/19/2018 at 4:15 PM, Kromm said:

While Chidi's reaction was pricelessly funny, and Tahani and Jason's ones at least amusing, it occurred to me that in some ways this was a repeat of the episode where they were all judged and it was clear that Eleanor was the only one who'd truly changed. 

Chidi's nihilism wasn't precisely the same in effect as his usual dangerous indecisiveness, but the net effect of his breakdown was the same.  Selfishness. He's still selfish underneath his airs of helping people with their ethics, or in this case acting loony tunes because it's clear now he's not really helping for the right reasons.

I'd like to take it even one step further: at this point Chidi was actively giving his students bad advice. Yeah, for him he's in a bad spot so nothing matters. But for his students, this was the first time in his life Chidi knew for a fact that good deeds do matter, and yet he told them they don't.

Obviously it's quite forgivable because he was having a breakdown after having just received the worst news possible. But in terms of doing good for good's sake, on that one day he was the furthest away of the four.

[Rockstar99435]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:13 AM, Blakeston said:

I'm sure there's something bigger down the line. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Michael scheming would be treated as the big revelation of the season.

But I see two possibilities here. One is that Michael just mindlessly repeated what the judge told him. The other is that he repeated it as a clever tactic, knowing that he was creating a situation where the humans would be capable of doing good without expecting a reward. And I think the second possibility is more interesting.

Especially because, without a broader plan, Michael would have to be incredibly stupid to tell them about the point system when he didn't have to. He could have just refused to tell them anything about the door. The humans might have speculated that they'd seen something supernatural, but they wouldn't know them anything about the reward/punishment system.

This is why Chidi decided to help Eleanor in the first place. Chidi wasn't sure if it was ethical to help Eleanor stay in the Good Place or if she were even capable of learning to be good. Then she dumped her garbage so she could go flying, causing a garbage storm, and Chidi told her that she was too selfish to help and that she was on her own. Eleanor feels bad enough about this that she cleaned up all the garbage by herself. Chidi sees her doing good without the possibility of a reward as proof that she can be good and decides to be her ethics teacher. We don't see why Chidi decided to help Eleanor all 803 times, but it wouldn't suprise me if Eleanor had to earn his support every time. Chidi did make Michael earn his spot back in the class after the trolley problem prank. Michael and Janet just wrote a manuscript detailing everything they learned from the very first attempt through now, including how Eleanor was able to earn Chidi's help every time. And in this episode when Eleanor explains to the group that they are going to try to help as many people as they can because they can't save themselves, Michael and Janet give each other a knowing look. 

[Johnny Dollar]

Doing good deeds solely for their own sake and without the promise of heaven or the threat of hell is almost subversive in our current times where “I’ve got mine, you’re on your own” seems to be the prevailing philosophy.  I’m surprised organized religion hasn’t weighed in on this heresy. 

[dusang]

I have no problem with Chidi's jackedness, partly because it was referenced from the very beginning, partly because I don't think it's excessive (have The Chrises permanently warped my idea of what jacked is?), and partly because I'm shallow. However, I do have a bit of a problem with the Peeps Chili, in that he appeared to be preparing it on a desk with no heat source.

[DrSpaceman73]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, Tetraneutron said:

It makes more sense for him to be jacked like that than for Eleanor and Jason to have the bodies they do, looking like hot actors instead of trashbags who we've seen eat terribly. It's pretty easy to see Chidi come to the conclusion that maintaining his health is a moral necessity. We've seen how he obsesses over almond milk. 

Jason I can see because he is younger, easier to stay thin and when you don't have as many years to age and put on weight.  And he seems to be pretty active, even if he does not work out on a formal basis, when he is not playing Madden on Xbox

Eleanor........less believable, but she is pretty much an alcoholic and they sometimes appears thin but are unhealthy when you evaluate there overall health

In general though its a TV thing, showing people, often women, eating a less than healthy diet and still being thin and attractive.  As much as I loved her character, Liz Lemon on 30 Rock was the perfect example of that

[lucindabelle]

Hah, not now but when I was in my 20s and 30s this was me. Ate whatever whenever. If I did the mildest exercise routine for like a week I'd be cut. So I buy it.

[Ailianna]

12 hours ago, dusang said:

However, I do have a bit of a problem with the Peeps Chili, in that he appeared to be preparing it on a desk with no heat source.

I thought that was part of the gag.  Nothing looked like it was being cooked together, the peeps weren't melting, and he kept picking the pot up with his bare hands.  I think he was just mixing in ingredients, not actually cooking.  Which can't have helped his stomach either.

[AnnaRose]

12 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

In general though its a TV thing, showing people, often women, eating a less than healthy diet and still being thin and attractive.  As much as I loved her character, Liz Lemon on 30 Rock was the perfect example of that

The worst was Gilmore Girls - Lorelie and Rory both routinely ate truly sickening amounts of food including gross junk food and were disparaging about any kind of exercise and yet they were thin and gorgeous.  So annoying.

[possibilities]

I doubt they will stay on Earth doing the good deeds for long. This show resets itself quickly, and I'm not worried about getting bored. I do think they might try a few "good deeds" and have these attempts set up a few ethical dilemmas and complications, but I don't think they're going to just make the rest of the season into "Touched By An Angel".

I think it's interesting that they chose to do good because there was no hope. Most of the time, when people talk about losing hope, they talk about becoming more reckless and hedonistic, or just totally passive. It's not typically cast as the kind of thing that makes people more altruistic. Why would people who were selfish, disconnected, immoral, obsessive, or vain suddenly become less so when they believe they are headed for certain doom? I think it's an interesting suggestion, and fun to watch, but it's a little bit surprising unless the characters are already inclined to do good anyway, which really wasn't where it was headed before the despair factor was introduced.

[bros402]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I doubt they will stay on Earth doing the good deeds for long. This show resets itself quickly, and I'm not worried about getting bored. I do think they might try a few "good deeds" and have these attempts set up a few ethical dilemmas and complications, but I don't think they're going to just make the rest of the season into "Touched By An Angel".

I think it's interesting that they chose to do good because there was no hope. Most of the time, when people talk about losing hope, they talk about becoming more reckless and hedonistic, or just totally passive. It's not typically cast as the kind of thing that makes people more altruistic. Why would people who were selfish, disconnected, immoral, obsessive, or vain suddenly become less so when they believe they are headed for certain doom? I think it's an interesting suggestion, and fun to watch, but it's a little bit surprising unless the characters are already inclined to do good anyway, which really wasn't where it was headed before the despair factor was introduced.

I think we will have 1-2 episodes of the Soul Squad doing good deeds/helping people accrue points.

[cpcathy]

Exactly, then we will get a major plot point I'm sure.

[Kromm]

On 10/19/2018 at 11:39 PM, Zuleikha said:

 

Eleanor was the only one who passed, but Tahani had clearly changed as well. She made it past all of the doors except her parents because they were the root. And then that conversation was played as a turning point moment. It wasn't enough for Gen, but it was still change.

I think that shows in this episode as well. Tahani and Eleanor are the two who have the selfless reactions to try and do concrete, actual good. Chidi is too caught up in the philosophy of it all. And Jason is well... Jason. I don't think the show fully knows what to make of Jason because he's not malicious, but he's also just not a good person in the way that the other three are at their core. At some point, I think the show needs to address that.

I'll gladly give on the thing with the doors, because that's a good analysis and a great argument for Tahani having changed.  However THIS time, in this situation, Tahani more clearly failed.  I think both the acting and scripting telegraphed that Tahani was having an opposite reaction than Eleanor.  Eleanor accepts the notion she's inevitably going to Hell. Tahani seemingly doesn't. She seems like she's in denial and despite being told otherwise subconsciously believes she can buy her way into Heaven.  Sure, she doesn't say so, and this is all subtext, but the way she goes about giving the money away is kind of manic and panicky.  That's why I read her actions that way.

Eleanor's depression and even her words support that she really believes not only that she's going to the Bad Place, but also that there's nothing she can do about it. Her reluctance to do the right thing makes it even clearer that she does.  But even grudgingly, she DOES do the right thing for no reason at all other than that it's the right thing.  And due to some great face acting by our star, we can see the moment she feels good after having done the right thing.  What makes it even more evident that she's changed however is that Eleanor doesn't have much of a governor on spilling her plans. So I'd argue that her plan to do further good isn't motivated, like Tahani's was, by delusion that this will help them get into the Good Place. But I'll admit. the show could be fooling me and have that be a secret plan of hers she isn't sharing with anyone.  But for now I'm going with the point of view that Eleanor, for the second time, proved her inner moral fiber, whereas none of the others have, except now due to your argument, I agree that Tahani came very close the last time this came up and only failed due to a technicality. Well this time I don't think that was the case with her. Again, if the show's been consistent about one message it's that doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is very morally shaky ground to stand on, and Tahani is still standing in that place in my opinion, even if the part where she claims credit is now replaced by a motivation to save herself from eternal damnation.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Kromm

[Zuleikha]

 She seems like she's in denial and despite being told otherwise subconsciously believes she can buy her way into Heaven.  Sure, she doesn't say so, and this is all subtext, but the way she goes about giving the money away is kind of manic and panicky.  That's why I read her actions that way.

That's reasonable because she was manic, but it also isn't canon. It's your interpretation. I have a different one currently, which I'll get to below.

Now, I've stated before that I've had HUGE issues with the show morality and how it handles Tahani's actions vs. partial intentions. Tahani has so consistently tried to help people/improve the world that I can't accept the idea that because her actions may not be 100% pure, they're completely impure and invalid. I don't think that's what we were shown in the explanations of the point system. The self-centered part would ding her, but the genuine desire to help would still get credit. 

And likewise, even if she is operating in part because of denial, it doesn't change the fact that her first instincts in the face of despair are still to do concrete good. She's still taking actions to improve people's lives, albeit not necessarily the best thought out. This compares with Chidi, Jason, and Eleanor, whose first instincts are self-centered (or in the case of Jason, just what they always were). 

My interpretation of Tahani's manicness, by the way, was that she felt free of the burdens of expectations for the first time in her life. She didn't have to work for people's adoration because she had already been judged and condemned. So she could focus on doing what made her happy... which was creating happiness for other people.
 

[angora]

I didn't really see Tahani as being in denial.  With her anonymous donation, she told Jason she'd been thinking about why she went to the Bad Place and figured (correctly) that it was due to her constant desire to be seen/recognized for doing good.  For me, it wasn't about a last-ditch effort to get points the "right" way, it was about DOING the right thing because she did genuinely WANT to do good.  It was maybe a way of making herself feel better, combined with a little, "This money's never brought me fulfillment, so I just wanna get rid of it!", but I saw this action as a result of her own self-reflection and wanting to do better, not as hoping she'd still make it into the Good Place anyway.

And I do think we saw at least a slight positive change in Jason here.  Giving away comparatively-small (to Tahani) amounts of money to random people on the street was his idea, and as he pointed out, while those bundles were drops in the bucket for Tahani, they would make a big difference in the lives of a lot of other people.  Tahani wanted to help people, and he helped her think of a way to do it that, while far from conventional or practical, would have a big impact on the individuals she gave to (plus, he reminded her that she didn't have to ask the people if they poor first!)  It's a smaller change than what we see in Eleanor, of course, but it's not nothing.

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Now, I've stated before that I've had HUGE issues with the show morality and how it handles Tahani's actions vs. partial intentions.

But I think that part of what the show is doing is questioning whether the system underlying the Good/Bad Place is fair at all. Apparently, almost no one makes it to the Good Place, which is horrifying and suggests a real cruelty.

On the other hand, in Tahani's case, whether or not she, or almost anyone, deserves eternal damnation, I don't think she was depicted as a good person in S1. She did a lot of good, but then, that's partially because her background and circumstances made philanthropy a viable path, and one that would get her a lot of praise and attention without requiring her to sacrifice anything. In terms of motivation and essential character, she clearly did not care about other people, and in fact looked down on anyone who wasn't in her celebrity culture to the point of gross insensitivity. 

That's different, I think, than the premise of Jeremy Bearimy, which suggests that in order for an action to be good, you have to do it with no hope of reward. That's more extreme; as it would seem to me that you could have a version of Tahani who sincerely likes helping, is genuinely decent to people around her, but also enjoys - like almost anyone would! - getting praise and fame because of her actions. And that may be closer to Tahani's actions in this episode, where there may be a part of her who is still thinking of the possibility of reward - whether in the form of entry into the Good Place, or in the form of getting validation from Jason and the other members of the Brainy Bunch -- but she also seems to be actuated by a more generous spirit.

One problem I haven't seen addressed on this thread is that, by the logic of this episode, in theory there would be tons of people excluded from TGP because their religious beliefs included an afterlife dependent on reward and punishment. Even if you didn't have perfect knowledge of exactly how the point system worked, if you believe that doing good works gets you into heaven or a heaven-equivalent, then essentially you're in the same bind that Eleanor et al are. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by companionenvy

[Zuleikha]

 In terms of motivation and essential character, she clearly did not care about other people, and in fact looked down on anyone who wasn't in her celebrity culture to the point of gross insensitivity.

This is the interesting thing about how people respond to Tahani's character to me because you're not the only one who's responded to her that way, but I did not see it at all. I may actually rewatch s1 (since it's short, fluffy, and happy) to double check my memory. But I remember Tahani wanting approval and namedropping as part of that, but also genuinely reaching out and thinking about other people. I remember her doing thoughtful, compassionate things for people, including Eleanor. I don't think she was insensitive... a teeny bit clueless, but mostly really insecure/desperate for external validation (and Eleanor also reacted to Tahani out of Eleanor's own insecurity).

Tahani also worked for her philanthropy. It wasn't just that she had a lot of money and so she could donate it without giving anything away. She was an event planner for charity fundraisers. That is a TON of hard work and skill. That's been one of my points all along that yes, Tahani's motivations weren't 100% pure. But they weren't 100% impure either. Given her social status and appearance, she had many easier ways to seek external validation. She chose the way she did because she wanted to help make the world a better place.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

One problem I haven't seen addressed on this thread is that, by the logic of this episode, in theory there would be tons of people excluded from TGP because their religious beliefs included an afterlife dependent on reward and punishment. Even if you didn't have perfect knowledge of exactly how the point system worked, if you believe that doing good works gets you into heaven or a heaven-equivalent, then essentially you're in the same bind that Eleanor et al are. 

oooh, I love this theory!  Because then it would mean that The Good Place is inhabited totally by good-doing atheists!  Now that's a place I wouldn't mind spending eternity in!

[companionenvy]

44 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

This is the interesting thing about how people respond to Tahani's character to me because you're not the only one who's responded to her that way, but I did not see it at all. I may actually rewatch s1 (since it's short, fluffy, and happy) to double check my memory. But I remember Tahani wanting approval and namedropping as part of that, but also genuinely reaching out and thinking about other people. I remember her doing thoughtful, compassionate things for people, including Eleanor. I don't think she was insensitive... a teeny bit clueless, but mostly really insecure/desperate for external validation (and Eleanor also reacted to Tahani out of Eleanor's own insecurity).

Tahani also worked for her philanthropy. It wasn't just that she had a lot of money and so she could donate it without giving anything away. She was an event planner for charity fundraisers. That is a TON of hard work and skill. That's been one of my points all along that yes, Tahani's motivations weren't 100% pure. But they weren't 100% impure either. Given her social status and appearance, she had many easier ways to seek external validation. She chose the way she did because she wanted to help make the world a better place.

For me, the idea that Tahani is mostly a selfish namedropper who cares little about people isn't incompatible with the idea that she might sometimes demonstrate the capacity for genuine decency - in fact, that's sort of the premise of the show. Eleanor is a case of someone who pretty clearly was a bad person who didn't deserve to be in TGP,  but obviously she is capable of goodness and moral growth, which we see throughout the first season. The same is true of Tahani, although I think she starts changing a little later in the game.  At its core, though, I think even a lot of Tahani's early "good" gestures come from a love of being in control and an obsession with being seen as a good person, and seeing herself that way. And that, I think, is key to why the philanthropy is fairly empty. Sure, there are other things Tahani could have done to become famous - although it is worth noting that she evidently wasn't as talented as Kamilah, or at least wasn't perceived as such, so she wouldn't have been likely to seek validation through something that would have required extraordinary ability. But in any event, part of Tahani's psychology is that she is invested in and values a conventional notion of goodness in a way that wouldn't allow her to be a Paris Hilton or Kardashian type. 

I guess maybe you could say that wanting to be good and to be known for being good is in itself indicative of a kind of moral worth. But at the end of the day, I still think becoming a philanthropist was all about Tahani's ego, and had very little to do with any feelings for the people she was helping, which might legitimately be said to rob her act of a lot of ethical value.

[theatremouse]

On 10/21/2018 at 3:58 PM, Blakeston said:

We've never seen him show any inclination toward working out, though, have we?

He got those abs by schlepping around his gazillion page dissertation all the time.

[Maelstrom]

Rewatched this before the new episode, and this time I noticed that Chidi not only stocked up on peeps and chili makings at the grocery store, but also on almond products. Seriously, at the checkout the counter was full of cartons of almond milk, and laying on the conveyor belt was an entire bulk bin full of almonds. Ha! I swear you could rewatch this show a thousand times and catch new details each time.

[possibilities]

5 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Tahani's motivations weren't 100% pure. But they weren't 100% impure either

It seems to me that the system to get into The Good Place does actually require 100% purity. That's why hardly anyone gets in.

They say you have to have more points on the good side than the bad side, but they also say very few people make it.

It's very harsh! There's the Good Place which hardly anyone gets into, The Bad Place which almost everyone apparently winds up in, and only one person in the Middle Place. That's a tough system.

And the things that get you negative points include things many people would consider annoying but not criminal. And good things only really get you good points if they are both helpful to others and pure of motive. It's a very tough system.

You can argue that people wanted to do good, but it doesn't get them into The Good Place unless they succeeded on several different bases. It's strict. There's no "good enough" or "pretty good" or even "mostly good." And the penalty for falling short at all is severe. The system doesn't care about your motive or your impact alone, it cares about both.

[Loandbehold]

11 hours ago, possibilities said:

It seems to me that the system to get into The Good Place does actually require 100% purity. That's why hardly anyone gets in.

They say you have to have more points on the good side than the bad side, but they also say very few people make it.

It's very harsh! There's the Good Place which hardly anyone gets into, The Bad Place which almost everyone apparently winds up in, and only one person in the Middle Place. That's a tough system.

And the things that get you negative points include things many people would consider annoying but not criminal. And good things only really get you good points if they are both helpful to others and pure of motive. It's a very tough system.

You can argue that people wanted to do good, but it doesn't get them into The Good Place unless they succeeded on several different bases. It's strict. There's no "good enough" or "pretty good" or even "mostly good." And the penalty for falling short at all is severe. The system doesn't care about your motive or your impact alone, it cares about both.

I look at it like the Baseball Hall of Fame. Only the best of the best are enshrined. That's why poseurs like Florence Nightingale and Gandhi aren't there. They fell just a little short. Maybe if they had another few years, they would have earned those extra points needed to put you on the plus side of the ledger. If you want a more classical view, IIRC in Dante's The Paradiso, there were only so many slots open in Paradise, and that was in more than 1300 years, since anyone born before Christ was ineligible to go to Paradise and, if good enough, were placed in the First Circle of Hell (hey, it's Aristotle!). Very few people were so good that they were eligible for Paradise.

[Zuleikha]

It seems to me that the system to get into The Good Place does actually require 100% purity. That's why hardly anyone gets in.

Intention is a part of it, but I don't remember anything that established 100% purity. Every time intention's been talked about, it's been about 100% false motives. Obviously people's mileage varies a lot on this, but I think what the show has shown pushes Tahani on the way more pure than impure side. Heck, think of the flashback where she had to add a special meet-Kamilah item to her auction in order to raise the funds. That was clearly not about her own ego because it didn't aid her ego. On the contrary, it was personally painful and required her to do something selfless.

I don't have a specific problem with Tahani not getting into The Good Place because it's supposed to be so exclusive*, but I do have a problem with the way the show generally treats her as morally equivalent to Jason and Eleanor. The show occasionally gives lip service to the two of them being worse, but I don't think it ever really acknowledges how much practical good she did to the world. 

* I mean I have huge problems with that aspect of The Good Place in general, but the show POV does as well. 

[Loandbehold]

10 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

That was clearly not about her own ego because it didn't aid her ego. On the contrary, it was personally painful and required her to do something selfless.

Except that Tahani was trying to raise the most money so she would look good. I can see where the trade off is considered to be on the lean selfish as opposed to the selfless side of the ledger.

[wilnil]

The thing with Tahani's points status, to me, isn't really that she's getting marked down for having selfish motives behind her philanthropy -- I think she just isn't getting the high points that she'd have gotten if she were selfless.

Also, a lot of people here seem to be seeing her assignment to the Bad Place as unfair based on the current incarnation of Tahani rather than on any of the earlier versions who hadn't improved themselves morally. Consider her first reboot in Season 2 Episode 1, where she reverted to her original condescending snobbery with her short soulmate, his wardrobe choices (cargo pants!) and the cutting remarks she made to sash-wearing Eleanor. That Tahani, like the one in early Season 1, was pretty much an asshole pardon me, ash-hole.

Edited October 27, 2018 by wilnil