S02.E07: The Most Disappointed Man

[ChromaKelly]

29 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

A black baby born addicted to crack (which Randall presumably was, based on his comment in the pilot) in 1980 wouldn't have had hundreds of couples lining up to adopt them. Plenty of unwanted black babies spent their entire childhoods in the system, rather than with loving parents.

The judge certainly has a point that it's ideal for a black child to be raised by black parents. But to take a one-year-old away from loving, competent parents with whom he's bonded is horrifying, particularly if the child would be placed in a foster home while the state searches for parents willing to adopt.

I seriously have to handwave the whole issue of the Pearsons even being given baby Randall in the first place. It's so ludicrous. He would have been placed in an already licensed foster home. Not with a couple who just lost one baby and has two newborns that IIRC, were premature themselves. He also would most definitely been placed as a foster placement at first while a search for a possible identity and parents took place. I get that they didn't have things like surveillance videos everywhere, but some attempt would be made.  A baby abandoned at a fire station plus a body found of a woman who had just given birth would certainly make the news. Wouldn't the police be involved?  

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I seriously have to handwave the whole issue of the Pearsons even being given baby Randall in the first place. It's so ludicrous. He would have been placed in an already licensed foster home. Not with a couple who just lost one baby and has two newborns that IIRC, were premature themselves. He also would most definitely been placed as a foster placement at first while a search for a possible identity and parents took place. I get that they didn't have things like surveillance videos everywhere, but some attempt would be made.  A baby abandoned at a fire station plus a body found of a woman who had just given birth would certainly make the news. Wouldn't the police be involved?  

I thought the whole point of the safe harbor drops was to be able to remain anonymous.

[ChromaKelly]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I thought the whole point of the safe harbor drops was to be able to remain anonymous.

Was that around then? I thought it was more about no repercussions for child abandonment. There is also the issue of a dead woman who gave birth which I would think would get the police involved.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, ChromaKelly said:

Was that around then? I thought it was more about no repercussions for child abandonment. There is also the issue of a dead woman who gave birth which I would think would get the police involved.

I don't remember when it started.  You're probably right that it wasn't that early. But, the whole reason to abandon your baby as opposed to putting it up legally for adoption is to remain anonymous.  And, I don't know about Pittsburgh in 1980, but I'm sure there have been lots of places at different times when the police just wouldn't have cared at all about the death of a black junkie.  Not saying that's right.  Actually, it might not even have that much to do with race and more on the junkie part.

[movingtargetgal]

I grew up with a father who was addicted to alcohol and a mother with a pill addiction.  It took my sister and I a LONG time to realize that our mother was an addict.  It is much easier to hide a pill addiction.  When you are dealing with an alcoholic the evidence of his or her drinking is always staring you in the face.  My father would drink from the time he got up in the morning (he always had a beer on the nightstand and drank it before he even got out of bed) until he went to bed at night.  We could see him bring cases of beer and half gallons of whiskey into the house daily.  We watched him drink throughout the day and pile up the empties. It was our job to gather up the empties and haul them out to the garage.  Dad would slowly get drunker and more belligerent as the day wore on.  We could gage his moods by the number of empties we had gathered up that day.  Dad always reeked of Pabst Blue Ribbon and Fleishman's Whiskey.  Mom was always moody and we never knew what to expect from her, we had no clue she had an addiction to pills. She was able to hid her addiction because she took "prescribed medication", valium for stress and amphetamines for weight loss.  A few bottles of pills are easier to hide than a bunch of liquor and the empties that remain behind.  It only takes a split second to swallow a pill and there is no tell tale odor that alcohol has. One minute mom was "fine" the next not so much.  There was no warning which was even scarier than dad's behavior, at least with him you could see the warning signs and stay the hell out of his way.  

Kevin is living alone in LA and as far as his family knows he is taking his medication for pain.  It is easy for Kevin to cover up his addiction at this point, however, he is falling apart.  Sophie was blindsided by Kevin because she has no clue about his addiction.  Kate and Toby live near Kevin and may see him take a pill but are not yet aware of how many and how often he taking his pain meds.  If Kevin were drinking, Kate would be more able to pick up on the evidence of his addiction.  Kevin is not really aware he is addicted.  He just sees himself as "needing" his pills just for the pain.  Pill addiction really sneaks up on people it is so easy to cross the line from a need for pain to dependence.  It can happen to anyone.  I think/hope the family will rally around Kevin and get him the help that he needs.  I can see Randall and Kate bringing Kevin to rehab, The Big Three once again being there for each other through thick and thin.
 

[ShadowFacts]

18 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Was that around then? I thought it was more about no repercussions for child abandonment. There is also the issue of a dead woman who gave birth which I would think would get the police involved.

Absolutely.  I've had this problem with the Randall/firehouse/adoption thing since the beginning and posted about it last season.  The police would have to be involved in investigating her death because the baby is missing.  And then one shows up at the firehouse.  I think there will be a tough time with the writers explaining this.  For a minute I thought when William was in front of the judge saying a year ago he had a mother, a girl and a baby boy on the way that something was going to come out, but then realized that no, it couldn't have worked that way.  Even if the police were really negligent, this would have been on the news and somebody in all of Pittsburgh would have put two and two together. 

[kili]

Quote

And, I don't know about Pittsburgh in 1980, but I'm sure there have been lots of places at different times when the police just wouldn't have cared at all about the death of a black junkie. 

They would care because she'd just given birth. They would try to find the baby and make sure everything was on the up-and-up. There would be questions as to who was there and how the baby ended up somewhere else. And the mother may have had a next-of-kin.

Is Kevin getting suicidal? He thinks he's completely worthless and people are better off without him. I think his "Where's Kevin? Oh, he's dead" is going to come true and he's going to be found nearly dead of an overdose or suicide.

After the spat with the social worker, I was beginning to think that Randall would go home with two kids.

[After7Only]

46 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

A black baby born addicted to crack (which Randall presumably was, based on his comment in the pilot) in 1980 wouldn't have had hundreds of couples lining up to adopt them. Plenty of unwanted black babies spent their entire childhoods in the system, rather than with loving parents.

The judge certainly has a point that it's ideal for a black child to be raised by black parents. But to take a one-year-old away from loving, competent parents with whom he's bonded is horrifying, particularly if the child would be placed in a foster home while the state searches for parents willing to adopt.

I'm not so sure this is true.  The reason many kids spent their entire childhoods in foster care was the system was trying to reunite them with their birth families.  By the time the system finally realizes the birth family isn't going to get their act together, and the state finally terminates rights, the kid is a lot older and harder to adopt.  But healthy black newborn children with no birth family barriers tended to be adopted pretty quickly.  

1 hour ago, Aw my lahgs said:

Imagine the Pearsons were black and Randall was white. The outrage about racism that would cause. 

The problem with this analogy is that you're assuming the experiences and culture of blacks and whites in America are exactly the same.   It is not.  The judge's concerns were regarding those differences and the Pearson's ability navigate those differences with Randall.  In in the reverse scenario, this would be less of a concern.  White Randall raised by Black parents would not run up to every white person he saw thinking they might be his biological parents because he would see white people everywhere he went.   

[voiceover]

Here's an observation for the Venn diagram of People Who Watch This is Us and People Who Watch TCM:  

I'm watching How Green Was My Valley and am very struck by how much Jack reminds me of Huw's father.  Good, flawed, larger-than-life dads through the ages, huh? 

eta: Huw's voiceover at the end, might also be echoed by the Big Three: 

"Men like my father cannot die. They are with me still, real in memory as they were in flesh. Loving and beloved forever."

Edited November 8, 2017 by voiceover

[PRgal]

48 minutes ago, After7Only said:

I'm not so sure this is true.  The reason many kids spent their entire childhoods in foster care was the system was trying to reunite them with their birth families.  By the time the system finally realizes the birth family isn't going to get their act together, and the state finally terminates rights, the kid is a lot older and harder to adopt.  But healthy black newborn children with no birth family barriers tended to be adopted pretty quickly.  

The problem with this analogy is that you're assuming the experiences and culture of blacks and whites in America are exactly the same.   It is not.  The judge's concerns were regarding those differences and the Pearson's ability navigate those differences with Randall.  In in the reverse scenario, this would be less of a concern.  White Randall raised by Black parents would not run up to every white person he saw thinking they might be his biological parents because he would see white people everywhere he went.   

There are other concerns sometimes when non-blacks are hoping to adopt a black child.  Imagine if the Pearsons were Asian.  Asians (based on my personal experience and what I have heard SOME (older) family members say) have a reputation of being racist towards blacks, so to keep a child like Randall "safe," he would likely NOT be placed in an Asian home...and one reason why we gave up on domestic adoption  :(

[CaughtOnTape]

Ugh.  I don't care about Kevin and his narcissistic crap.  This show has tried to make him out to be some Gomer Pyle type character who is a lovable idiot but all I see is such selfish behavior to hold onto a lifestyle that I find it boring.  Of course he's gonna get his shit together and then come back around for Sophie again and just....please don't.  The whole "guy cleans up his act for his first love" trope is not ever done well.  

And I like Jack but stop with his deification.  All of these kids romanticizing him is hard to reconcile when we've seen him fall to the alcohol addiction.  My mother was an addict.  She was a fabulous mother and I love her but I have to be honest about what she was.  It seems like Rebecca is paying the price for some of his shortcomings because she's still alive and he's not and that is categorically unfair.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, After7Only said:

I'm not so sure this is true.  The reason many kids spent their entire childhoods in foster care was the system was trying to reunite them with their birth families.  By the time the system finally realizes the birth family isn't going to get their act together, and the state finally terminates rights, the kid is a lot older and harder to adopt.  But healthy black newborn children with no birth family barriers tended to be adopted pretty quickly.  

If he was, in fact, born addicted to crack, I'd think that would scare away a lot of potential adoptive parents. Even once he was treated for it, I'd expect there to be a stigma involved.

In the world of the show, based on what the judge said about Randall being cared for until black parents could be found for him, I don't think the writers are suggesting that there were qualified black parents ready and waiting for him.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

13 hours ago, Cardie said:

I was surprised that Randall didn't immediately run out and bring the deaf four-year-old home with him. Because he thinks he can handle anything. *eye roll*

I did find the episode emotionally satisfying. For the first time Toby and Kate seemed like two people deeply in love. There was nuance in the portrayal of Deja's mom.  I cried for the first time in a long time.  And it was at the scene of the two judges comparing notes.

Kevin's storyline not bringing any tears, only exasperation, however.

I wonder if maybe, possibly, he is going to end up with the girl who is deaf.  I can just see it now.  They fight for Deja but don't get to keep her.  Then, they end up with a little white girl bringing everything full circle. Speeches about how you think your life is going one way and then it ends up completely different and completely perfect about.

[Cardie]

7 hours ago, Paloma said:

but it bothered me a lot that he was not taking into account the fact that Randall had been with these parents since birth and would be bonded with them after a year

In the 1980s a white friend of our family adopted a little girl whose mother was white and had concealed the fact that the father was African American. When this fact came to light, many months later, the social workers took the child away and placed her with a black family in another state, despite the adoptive parents' desperate pleas to be able to keep her. They adopted a little boy soon after, but the mother said she had trouble bonding with him because of the loss of the little girl. I hope the biracial child was less damaged than this poor woman was.

[Paloma]

25 minutes ago, Cardie said:

In the 1980s a white friend of our family adopted a little girl whose mother was white and had concealed the fact that the father was African American. When this fact came to light, many months later, the social workers took the child away and placed her with a black family in another state, despite the adoptive parents' desperate pleas to be able to keep her. They adopted a little boy soon after, but the mother said she had trouble bonding with him because of the loss of the little girl. I hope the biracial child was less damaged than this poor woman was.

That is terribly sad, and I have heard of other cases where it seems clear that the best interests of the child were ignored. This is one of the more tragic recent cases: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/foster-parents-lose-appeals-fight-for-native-american-choctaw-girl/

[JudyObscure]

Both the stories above made me feel sick with fear and grief for all concerned.  If the courts have decided  that they wont allow cross racial adoption then they should never allow cross racial foster parenting with a view to adoption in the first place.   I can't imagine the horror of having my child ripped from my arms while  screaming in fear.

[PRgal]

11 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Both the stories above made me feel sick with fear and grief for all concerned.  If the courts have decided  that they wont allow cross racial adoption then they should never allow cross racial foster parenting with a view to adoption in the first place.   I can't imagine the horror of having my child ripped from my arms while  screaming in fear.

^^^ copied and reposted in the social issues thread.

[saber5055]

I just couldn't with 30+ year old Toby being scared to death to tell his OTT Catholic mother Kate is pregnant. If Mom is that dyed-in-the-wool conservative religious, then Toby's divorce should have killed her years ago. And while I don't know anything about Deja's mom (I only watch this show with one eye and half a brain), she spoke perfect English, which IMO means she is educated and not a welfare/street/no-upbringing person. So yeah, I can totally see her getting Deja back. Although supposedly Deja has been bounced around in foster care for most of her life which just doesn't jive with Deja's mom being so articulate and obviously caring about her daughter.

[Eeksquire]

I have to admit that Justin Hartley killed me in this episode - he's completely strung out and knows the content of his own dreams (ignoring his own child, repeatedly - which for a moment I thought was a flashback that would explain why Kevin and Sophie broke up in the first place), so when he says, "When I dream about our future together, it's a nightmare" he gets that it's because in his visions, he things that HE is terrible, but Sophie hears it totally differently.  I think we were getting ready to have Sophie realize that something is Really Wrong before he said that and then all she could see was her own hurt.

Also, I couldn't help but feel like the brush-offs Kevin was giving to his kid were reminiscent of the brush-offs we've seen Jack give Kevin.  The one that jumped out at me was "Not right now [kid]", which I feel like we've seen Jack and Rebecca say to Kevin when Kate/Randall were having a crisis.

Should we start a pool about which member of the family is going to realize that Kevin's in trouble? I can't see it being Kate, because that would be too neat, plot-wise, but it'd be kind of interesting if it's a supporting player and not a Pearson - Miguel would be an interesting choice.  Maybe Toby (who already seemed to get that there might be more to it than just knee surgery frustration when he was trying to get Kevin off the treadmill).  Seems unlikely that it would be Beth, but maybe if Deja makes some kind of offhand remark about Kevin's behavior that brings everything into focus? That could also be interesting, so long as it doesn't come with a side of Kevin doing anything to scare any of the girls, which would be too dark for this show.

[kili]

Quote

Should we start a pool about which member of the family is going to realize that Kevin's in trouble? I can't see it being Kate, because that would be too neat, plot-wise, but it'd be kind of interesting if it's a supporting player and not a Pearson - Miguel would be an interesting choice.  Maybe Toby (who already seemed to get that there might be more to it than just knee surgery frustration when he was trying to get Kevin off the treadmill).  Seems unlikely that it would be Beth, but maybe if Deja makes some kind of offhand remark about Kevin's behavior that brings everything into focus? That could also be interesting, so long as it doesn't come with a side of Kevin doing anything to scare any of the girls, which would be too dark for this show

My money's on Beth. She is very perceptive and sees through the layers. Because they have Deja though, they can't have Kevin around and will likely not help him directly. It would be great for Randal to be the one to help Kevin (after Kevin rushed to his rescue), but they have a foster child who needs to be their primary responsibility (Kitty is not going to tolerate her client being around a drug addict in the foster home) and Randall has never noticed anything amiss about Kevin in his life (other than how Kevin interacts with him).

It would be super nice if Miguel was the one who actually helps because he appears to be one of the few family members who sees the real Kevin and values him. Maybe his past experiences with Jack help him to recognize the spiral.

[Lady Calypso]

15 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

Should we start a pool about which member of the family is going to realize that Kevin's in trouble? I can't see it being Kate, because that would be too neat, plot-wise, but it'd be kind of interesting if it's a supporting player and not a Pearson - Miguel would be an interesting choice.  Maybe Toby (who already seemed to get that there might be more to it than just knee surgery frustration when he was trying to get Kevin off the treadmill).  Seems unlikely that it would be Beth, but maybe if Deja makes some kind of offhand remark about Kevin's behavior that brings everything into focus? That could also be interesting, so long as it doesn't come with a side of Kevin doing anything to scare any of the girls, which would be too dark for this show.

I'd kind of love it if it was Rebecca, actually. She's seen her own husband go through and hide his addiction, so her noticing Kevin's spiral would show her paying attention to the often forgotten son (at least compared to Kate/Randall), and it could lead to some much needed Rebecca/Kevin present day scenes.

[kili]

Quote

I'd kind of love it if it was Rebecca, actually. She's seen her own husband go through and hide his addiction, so her noticing Kevin's spiral would show her paying attention to the often forgotten son (at least compared to Kate/Randall), and it could lead to some much needed Rebecca/Kevin present day scenes.

It would certainly be a change of pace. She never made it out to LA to watch Kevin when he got his big break on the "Manny". She decided to miss the first night of his new career on Broadway because her husband had gout (hardly life threatening). When she finally came to LA to watch Kevin return to the "Manny" she bailed before the filming started to go watch her daughter perform who didn't want to watch her perform.  I don't think Rebecca would notice, but I'm sure she would be very supportive once the problem was highlighted by somebody else. Kevin just isn't on her radar because she doesn't think he needs her support. Once she finally realize he does, I'm sure she will be there.

[debraran]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

I just couldn't with 30+ year old Toby being scared to death to tell his OTT Catholic mother Kate is pregnant. If Mom is that dyed-in-the-wool conservative religious, then Toby's divorce should have killed her years ago. And while I don't know anything about Deja's mom (I only watch this show with one eye and half a brain), she spoke perfect English, which IMO means she is educated and not a welfare/street/no-upbringing person. So yeah, I can totally see her getting Deja back. Although supposedly Deja has been bounced around in foster care for most of her life which just doesn't jive with Deja's mom being so articulate and obviously caring about her daughter.

That was a little odd, there are Catholics even today who are young and conservative and wait until marriage but Toby obviously wasn't and he's not that young. A baby out of wedlock happened since the beginning of time, an abortion would kill her, being a grandma, no.

The only thing I can see making Deja's transition rough is if they find out the mom had bad men around her and they weren't just from her foster care. She'd also have to show she could support her emotionally and monetarily, not Randall's style of living but support her. If Beth and Randall try to buy her like a divorced couple pulling at their kids, it wont end well and it's teaching Deja the wrong message. If they could all mentor together, a TV land type of relationship, it would be nice.

[dargosmydaddy]

5 hours ago, kili said:

Is Kevin getting suicidal? He thinks he's completely worthless and people are better off without him. I think his "Where's Kevin? Oh, he's dead" is going to come true and he's going to be found nearly dead of an overdose or suicide.

I thought that, too. I know addiction is hard to spot, and I know Sophie was blindsided by what he said, but I was really wishing she would put it together and realize this was Kevin spiraling and not really about her. Maybe insisting that he come in under the circumstances would have been too much, but at the very least it would have been nice if she could have reached out to someone in his family and let them know that Kevin is in a really dark place.

I didn't come in until the second half of the episode, but Randall with Deja's mom was just so awful. I was fine with him going to the prison, but as soon as he realized the reason the mom bailed on the visit, he should have just set up the phone call, rather than being a sanctimonious asshole first. 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

And I like Jack but stop with his deification.  All of these kids romanticizing him is hard to reconcile when we've seen him fall to the alcohol addiction.  My mother was an addict.  She was a fabulous mother and I love her but I have to be honest about what she was.  It seems like Rebecca is paying the price for some of his shortcomings because she's still alive and he's not and that is categorically unfair.

I agree with all of this, but I also think it's true to life. The people I know who lost a parent when they were young - that is, before they started seeing them as imperfect people - idolized their dead parent, often to the detriment of the living one.

1 hour ago, Eeksquire said:

Also, I couldn't help but feel like the brush-offs Kevin was giving to his kid were reminiscent of the brush-offs we've seen Jack give Kevin.  The one that jumped out at me was "Not right now [kid]", which I feel like we've seen Jack and Rebecca say to Kevin when Kate/Randall were having a crisis.

So much so, I thought it was an actual flashback (was the boy the same one who plays Kevin at that age?).

29 minutes ago, debraran said:

The only thing I can see making Deja's transition rough is if they find out the mom had bad men around her and they weren't just from her foster care. She'd also have to show she could support her emotionally and monetarily, not Randall's style of living but support her. If Beth and Randall try to buy her like a divorced couple pulling at their kids, it wont end well and it's teaching Deja the wrong message. If they could all mentor together, a TV land type of relationship, it would be nice.

I only half heard what Deja's mom's charges were - Randall mentioned keeping a gun in the car's glove compartment. But during the scene with the two of them, she mentioned a guy - possibly her boyfriend - who said the same thing Randall did about how he was on the other side of the glass. It made me think that maybe that gun was for protection, and that guy was abusive.

But boy, Randall was a jackass in this episode. He came around, but still. It does round him out a bit, though.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Clanstarling

[GodsBeloved]

9 hours ago, AnythingCanBe said:

Ultimately, I think the judge was very right about some things and very wrong about some things.  It's just a reality that there were things Jack and Rebecca couldn't offer Randall.  We saw in The Pool that they managed to go eight years without learning how to care for his skin and hair.  We saw in the episode with the martial arts school that Randall was craving black role models.  No amount of love would allow Jack and Rebecca to fully understand formative experiences like being called the n-word for the first time or being followed around a nice store.  Raising a black child isn't the same as raising a white child, and I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that; it's just honest.

 

Thank you! And has been pointed out, Rebecca and Jack discounted the judge’s valid concerns.

Sure it should be enough that Jack and Rebecca provide a loving home for Randall but that’s not the world we live in.

Edited November 8, 2017 by GodsBeloved

[ThatsDarling]

I think Toby secretly wants the big wedding for himself. The man is a shameless ham and wouldn't want to be denied the spotlight a wedding would provide. I wouldn't be surprised to see him twerking down the aisle to ABBA's "I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do."

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, marceline said:

As for that judge, the moment he said he had questions for the social worker, I knew what his hangup would be. I remember numerous cases in the 80s and 90s where people opposed cross-racial adoptions and you still see it now. It was a frustrating thing to watch but I'm glad the show chose to address it. It was nice seeing how Rebecca fought for Randall and it highlighted the immense emotional journey she went through in order to become his mom in her heart.

When we found out Rebecca knew William I didn't have an issue with how Rebecca handled it but a friend who also watches the show did. She pointed out how Rebecca was being totally selfish but I still wasn't on board with that. But now, I am more ready to embrace that.

I did like seeing her fighting for Randall but the thought that was forefront in my mind was this was more about Rebecca not losing another child than it was about Randall, especially knowing that Jack and Rebecca did not address the judge's concerns until Randall was 10 and Rebecca was confronted by Yvette.

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

A black baby born addicted to crack (which Randall presumably was, based on his comment in the pilot) in 1980 wouldn't have had hundreds of couples lining up to adopt them. Plenty of unwanted black babies spent their entire childhoods in the system, rather than with loving parents.

 

If Rebecca and Jack, who just had twins, could/would take on the responsibility of caring for a crack addicted baby, I can't believe there weren't at least some black couples who would have taken Randall. For that reason, I don't see crack addicted baby Randall's fate being a childhood in foster care but for the Pearsons.

[elle]

10 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

This is a big sticking point with me.  She's withholding really important information.  We know that William is pretty much alone in the world with no close relatives, but Rebecca doesn't know that there isn't a grandparent or aunt or uncle, etc. who might want to raise Randall.  In fact we see in Memphis that Randall actually does have blood relatives.  Rebecca made sure Randall never had that chance to be with kin who cared, however remote the chance was.  She should have disclosed what she knew when she knew it.

I think the show made a big mistake with that part of the story.  When one realizes just what Randall missed because Rebecca denied him this connection, it is maddening.  I understand her fear about William being a recovering addict but at some point when Randall was asking about his family could she have asked William about his extended family, she was in contact with him all those years.  I can only hope that Randall did keep in contact with his Memphis relations.  Probably not, either way we will never see it.

Quote

GodsBeloved:  I did like seeing her fighting for Randall but the thought that was forefront in my mind was this was more about Rebecca not losing another child than it was about Randall, especially knowing that Jack and Rebecca did not address the judge's concerns until Randall was 10 and Rebecca was confronted by Yvette.

I have not seen it addressed before this, I wonder if someone with experience/training in these things could comment on how Rebecca never had time to grieve for Kyle.  It seems that all her "fierce love for MY son" Randall is a transference of fear of losing a child.  Someone mentioned that Randall may have been an addicted baby, since his parents were addicted, which made him less desirable for adoption.  Could he have had some close calls as a baby that we have not seen yet which would make her even more paranoid/possessive about losing him?  (I say possessive because that is how it comes across to me whenever she says MY son.)

 

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Deja's mom said the dad left when she was 8 - but that does mean he's out there somewhere (maybe).

(snip)

Was it wrong for me to look at the Chips Ahoy and beer and think "Kevin, you're not going to keep that six pack if you keep that up."

Did Deja's mom say that in another episode?   I thought the person that left was the ex-boyfriend who was not Deja's father.

I did not think about Kev's abs in that scene but I did think it was an odd product placement for Chips Ahoy!

8 hours ago, deaja said:

The first time we heard Kate sing publicly, she sang "Time After Time" so I assume Toby was meaning a version with Kate singing it.

Ah, thanks!

Edited November 9, 2017 by elle

[Silly Angel]

I'm weirdly invested in Toby, Kate and baby. They don't actually bore me. Annoy, sometimes, but I have come around on Toby I feel like he knows he's a lot to take, and whether it was patience or just settling, Kate tolerated it and found herself with the right guy. That feels to me pretty real, realer than awesome Kate, who's been used or ignored, finding the perfect man from the jump. However, after they told Kevin, they went to the next person on their list--Toby's mom. What kind of order were they going in? One sibling, one parent, etc? I hate hate hate how Randall has always been the plus-one to Kate and Kevin.

Loved young William and the judge. I was mesmerized by the judge's gorgeous blue eyes. Never seen anything quite like those on TV.

Keven and Sophie, on the other hanzzzzzzzzzz.... oh, sorry, fell asleep. Kevin needs a storyline I give two shits about stat. Pill addiction on TV makes me pass out with boredom. Unless it's Coke!Kelly, I'm not gonna care.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, kili said:

She decided to miss the first night of his new career on Broadway because her husband had gout (hardly life threatening).

I remember her bailing on dinner with Kevin and Randall because of Miguel's gout, but I thought she was at both of the openings.

[tennisgurl]

5 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

And I like Jack but stop with his deification.  All of these kids romanticizing him is hard to reconcile when we've seen him fall to the alcohol addiction.  My mother was an addict.  She was a fabulous mother and I love her but I have to be honest about what she was.  It seems like Rebecca is paying the price for some of his shortcomings because she's still alive and he's not and that is categorically unfair.

Its certainly true that the kids romanticize Jack and ignore his faults, but I think its understandable. He died while they were still pretty young, under what were apparently sudden and tragic circumstances, so it makes sense they would idealize their relationship with him. With Rebecca, they've had more time to know her as an adult and to hash out their issues with her, but with Jack, they just have their happy ememories, and all the bad things just get burried under their grief that they clearly still havnt really dealt with. 

I actually suspected that Deja might recognize that Kevin was having drug problems (as she has experience with addicts) and she will tell Randall who will help him, but now I wonder if it will actually be Beth. She is certainly perceptive, and it would be a nice tie in for their relationship issues earlier. I cant see it being Kate or Rebecca. Kate, as much as I like her, is pretty self centered, and Rebecca hasn't really paid much mind to Kevin before, so why start now?

[BoogieBurns]

1 hour ago, elle said:

I can only hope that Randall did keep in contact with his Memphis relations.  Probably not, either way we will never see it.

Oh, I would not count that out. Bryan Tyree Henry who played Randall's second cousin (William's bandmate & first cousin) is best friends with Sterling K Brown. Also, there have been interviews saying we will dig into William's life at various points, last night showed two different bits of William we have never seen; there are more to come. Bryan says he definitely wants to return. I read that Randall having extended family will not end with the Memphis episode. Of course I can't find any sources now to link for you!

[NicoleMN6]

12 hours ago, Bean421 said:

Mr. Bean is white and I'm black. This is the struggle every year for family pics. What colors to wear that look good on everyone? Struggle. We've found a really good photographer but we've got three different hues in our family and she's worth every penny. 

[Raising my hand] In most photos with my (South Asian) husband, I'm either a ghost or you can only see the whites of his eyes...

[Blackie]

I'm wondering how far they will take this.  Are they willing to show someone really hit rock bottom, become homeless, become  a heroin addict ect or will he be rehabbed in 2 weeks.

Can someone remind me how Randall hunted down William, I can't remember and I don't have the show on my PVR anymore

[theatremouse]

13 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know what prescription he's using, but if it's OxyContin, it is highly addictive, fast. 

Previous episode said Vicodin, although I suppose he could've switched since he also seemed to be doctor shopping.

I keep finding myself distracted by the smallest details in the Deja storyline, to the point that I don't really care about the larger plot. Like for example  Randall's comment about her switching schools. I was under the impression that his kids went to a public school, that was part of why they lived where they did, the awesome public schools. I was also under the impression that if Deja were placed with them, if her previous school were not the neighborhood school for her new address, she'd not be allowed to continue attending there. Not for anything to do with her being a foster kid, but because she'd need to go to the public school assigned to her address (or a private school if Beth/Randall felt like paying for that, or a magnet school if they had them and she applied to go there). So the whole discussion about keeping her in her current school vs enrolling her elsewhere seemed really odd to me. I mean, I can come up with other reasons why she'd not be in her neighborhood school, there are enough variations and reasons kids sometimes go to non-neighborhood public schools, but the way the conversation played seemed like it was a normal everyday choice, not something that would need a lot more exposition to be plausible. Took me right out of it.

[biakbiak]

12 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

Not for anything to do with her being a foster kid, but because she'd need to go to the public school assigned to her address (or a private school if Beth/Randall felt like paying for that, or a magnet school if they had them and she applied to go there). So the whole discussion about keeping her in her current school vs enrolling her elsewhere seemed really odd to me.

I think that must vary by school district because given that it' the middle of the term I know of many situations where the student was allowed to finish out the term or in most cases the year at their original school.

[Emily Thrace]

6 hours ago, Paloma said:

That is terribly sad, and I have heard of other cases where it seems clear that the best interests of the child were ignored. This is one of the more tragic recent cases: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/foster-parents-lose-appeals-fight-for-native-american-choctaw-girl/

Its more complicated than that.(This case was big on my heavily NA social media feeds for a while) The fact the foster parents were getting some help from some fairly racist organizations for one. (There were some groups who got involved with helping cover the foster parents legal fees who clearly thought protecting the child's whiteness was paramount) I also seem to remember the foster father made some comments that made it clear he should not be raising a mixed race child. They are also the ones who called in the media circus hopping to stir up a public outcry. Frankly they were lucky to keep the kids they had by the time it was all over.    Also the law that came into play in this case was because of residential schools and other racist policies that split up Native families. I also think placing the child with family is optimal and usually in the best interest of the child unless they are actually unfit.

3 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

If Rebecca and Jack, who just had twins, could/would take on the responsibility of caring for a crack addicted baby, I can't believe there weren't at least some black couples who would have taken Randall. For that reason, I don't see crack addicted baby Randall's fate being a childhood in foster care but for the Pearsons.

It was heroin not crack that Randall's mother was using. In the final scene William is preparing a needle you inject heroin, you smoke crack.  Heroin doesn't have as many ill effects on unborn babies like crack does, which why opiodes are used in epidural's. Heroin doesn't cross the placenta so the only ill effects Randall might have had at birth are more likely to be from his mothers poor nutrition than anything else. 

[MelGoLightly]

5 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I thought that, too. I know addiction is hard to spot, and I know Sophie was blindsided by what he said, but I was really wishing she would put it together and realize this was Kevin spiraling and not really about her. Maybe insisting that he come in under the circumstances would have been too much, but at the very least it would have been nice if she could have reached out to someone in his family and let them know that Kevin is in a really dark place.

Ahhh it just occurred to me that this scene was meant to mirror Jack & Rebecca with her at the door and him admitting his addiction. Is this meant to demonstrate to the audience that Kevin & Sophie aren't really good for each other? He falls short of actually admitting his addiction and she shuts the door in his face without catching on to his spiral. Then again, Rebecca was clueless until Jack came out with it. So, maybe it's more about Kevin's constant attempts to live up to his father's legacy but falling short and by not just coming out with the addiction he lets her slip away? 

Unrelated: I had the impression this whole time that Randall's birth mom died while giving birth. Where did I come up with that? Baby Randall was born the day of the drop off, right? 

[Mrs Shibbles]

Im pretty sure the version of “Time After Time” Toby played was Eva Cassidy’s version.

She had such a beautiful voice, and a more folksy/soulful way of singing similar to Kate. 

[kissedbyarose]

While Randall was being a judgemental tool, I can kind of see where his anger comes from. Hasn’t Deja’s mom been in and out of jail and thus Deja has been placed in foster homes several times? And Deja just recently told Randall about her experience at the last home. And it’s not like her mom gave the social worker a reason why she didn’t want to see Deja (even a lie with a come see me next week attached) so with all this knowledge by the time he goes to see her mom he was already amped with this speech in his head.

I have sympathy for Deja’s mom but I’m not ready to be all on her team. I grew up in the projects so I know all about options, choices and who makes it out etc. But her story was “I met a no-good shifty dude in rehab and that’s why I’m in jail...” she could miss me with that excuse. Surely she wasn’t thinking about Deja when that happened.

[CelticBlackCat]

17 hours ago, PRgal said:

Question:  Did US viewers get a language warning due to the judge's use of the n-word?

Not a specific warning, just the usual TV-14, suitable for age 14 and older.  I believe (and this is JMHO) that if a white person said that word, there would be a big mess to clean up.  Since a black man said it in the context of his own experience, it is deemed acceptable, apparently.

[GSMHvisitor]

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'd kind of love it if it was Rebecca, actually. She's seen her own husband go through and hide his addiction, so her noticing Kevin's spiral would show her paying attention to the often forgotten son (at least compared to Kate/Randall), and it could lead to some much needed Rebecca/Kevin present day scenes.

What is up with the lack of present day interactions between Rebecca and Kevin anyways? I don't think they've shared a single scene where it was just the two of them? I could see that they're not that close, because as Kevin said himself in s1, Randall was more important to her. But wouldn't that be something to address in the present day scenes, much like Kate's issues with her mother? Or are Kevin and Rebecca just fine, albeit not so close and Kevin projected all his frustration, hurt and anger towards Randall and doesn't feel any resentment for his mother?

[debraran]

5 hours ago, MelGoLightly said:

Ahhh it just occurred to me that this scene was meant to mirror Jack & Rebecca with her at the door and him admitting his addiction. Is this meant to demonstrate to the audience that Kevin & Sophie aren't really good for each other? He falls short of actually admitting his addiction and she shuts the door in his face without catching on to his spiral. Then again, Rebecca was clueless until Jack came out with it. So, maybe it's more about Kevin's constant attempts to live up to his father's legacy but falling short and by not just coming out with the addiction he lets her slip away? 

Unrelated: I had the impression this whole time that Randall's birth mom died while giving birth. Where did I come up with that? Baby Randall was born the day of the drop off, right? 

She was unless they rewrite the script. It's in the "This is Us" bios and Randall's dad told him that when they got to know each other. He told the judge he lost his "girl" and son recently (just left out he left him at firehouse) Little Randall never knew and tried to find her as a child with an ad.

That part was sad, I don't know how much Rebecca knew then, at what age she saw him again, but to let him think she was alive or his dad was dead, it's just sad.

6 hours ago, theatremouse said:

Previous episode said Vicodin, although I suppose he could've switched since he also seemed to be doctor shopping.

I keep finding myself distracted by the smallest details in the Deja storyline, to the point that I don't really care about the larger plot. Like for example  Randall's comment about her switching schools. I was under the impression that his kids went to a public school, that was part of why they lived where they did, the awesome public schools. I was also under the impression that if Deja were placed with them, if her previous school were not the neighborhood school for her new address, she'd not be allowed to continue attending there. Not for anything to do with her being a foster kid, but because she'd need to go to the public school assigned to her address (or a private school if Beth/Randall felt like paying for that, or a magnet school if they had them and she applied to go there). So the whole discussion about keeping her in her current school vs enrolling her elsewhere seemed really odd to me. I mean, I can come up with other reasons why she'd not be in her neighborhood school, there are enough variations and reasons kids sometimes go to non-neighborhood public schools, but the way the conversation played seemed like it was a normal everyday choice, not something that would need a lot more exposition to be plausible. Took me right out of it.

It's really hard to doctor shop today.  I work in a doctor's office and worked in a pharmacy. Computers keep track of everything and there are stiff penalties for giving out too much and in January it is getting even stricter. We catch people all the time trying to go to more than one pharmacy or trying to get 2 doctors to give a script. Usually the angst, sweating or pleading is another tip off they are shopping.

That said, in Hollywood, they obviously get around it but it's not legal and I'm not sure how Kevin is getting his, buying from dealer or begging. I see stealing coming up soon or Kevin hitting bottom in some way.

[RachelKM]

You guys!  I actually, unreservedly liked Toby in this episode.  I loved him noticing Kate wasn't really happy about the idea of not having a wedding.  I loved his talking to Jack.  And I even liked his ridiculously cheesy proposal with a totally considerate speech to follow.

And the lawyer in me loved the judges, all three of them.  

I liked Kevin's breakup speech.  It was sad, of course.  But it was growth.  Both he and Kate were, in their separate ways, stunted by their father's death.  Kate's is more obvious.  Kevin bottled a lot up as a kid and tended to blow up in fits, but otherwise seemed to distance himself from everyone but Kate.  He became social and popular, but it was all part of his "being someone people would like", rather than being himself.  He's a performer.  And when his dad died, it seems he just went to the shallow place to hide.  Kevin also seems to live with the warring feelings of emotional neglect (he was the effective middle child of the family*) and the idolization of his father/ inability to measure up. 

I also saw the parallel between Kevin's speech to Sophie and Jack's speech to Rebecca.  And it occurred to me that it isn't clear that any of the kids ever knew that their father was an alcoholic, at least consciously.  It seems as if Jack and Rebecca kept it away from them.  It is ironic that while seeing himself as not measuring up to Jack, Kevin is in some ways walking in his father's footsteps.

Damn, Randall.  Check your bias and privilege, dude.  I understand his and Beth's desire to protect Deja from harm...  But it was pretty damn obvious that her mom was serious about the beating being the reason she didn't want Deja to see her.  I don't know that it was the right choice, but it was an understandable one. Randall came at her way too hard.  And the "you'll have to go through me" was NOT COOL.  I'm glad the mom called Deja.  I just want that kid to be happy.**

 

*did anyone else notice that in the adoption courtroom scene Rebecca held Randall and Jack held Kate while Kevin was apparent in the stroller?  

** I totally get why Beth and Randall would fall for Deja.  I kinda want to love and protect that little girl too.  Cheers to the actress.

Edited November 9, 2017 by RachelKM

[voiceover]

Wading into the trivia end:

Two ER regulars popped up in this ep; both as judges -- Sam Anderson as William's mentor, and Connie Marie Brazleton as Judge Shaw, who grants custody of Randall to the Pearsons.  It took a second viewing for it to click that it was her -- I was all, "Uhhhh...how do I know her?"  

Then when I double-checked IMDb, I ran across another casting choice that didn't surprise me: Kevin's dream son also plays 10-year-old Kevin.  I thought maybe Parker had a twin! 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

That said, in Hollywood, they obviously get around it but it's not legal and I'm not sure how Kevin is getting his, buying from dealer or begging. I see stealing coming up soon or Kevin hitting bottom in some way.

I think his bottom could easily come from an accidental overdose -- they've shown him drinking more than once, and the combination can be lethal.

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

** I totally get why Beth and Randall would fall for Deja.  I kinda want to love and protect that little girl too.  Cheers to the actress.

Me, too.  She cracked my heart when she was so determined to get her allowance money into her mother's jail account. 

[voiceover]

18 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Do you actually think a black family would have been allowed to take a white baby home in 1980?

I don't know what the real-life statistics are, but it happened in a 1979 Steve Martin film.

[debraran]

It's not common but you can google and find info. http://www.newsweek.com/what-adopting-white-girl-taught-one-black-family-77335 

I see it more with children that are hard to place sometimes.  As time goes on, we hopefully will get more colorblind but not in this climate but I see hope.

[Paloma]

7 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

15 hours ago, Paloma said:

That is terribly sad, and I have heard of other cases where it seems clear that the best interests of the child were ignored. This is one of the more tragic recent cases: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/foster-parents-lose-appeals-fight-for-native-american-choctaw-girl/

Its more complicated than that.(This case was big on my heavily NA social media feeds for a while) The fact the foster parents were getting some help from some fairly racist organizations for one. (There were some groups who got involved with helping cover the foster parents legal fees who clearly thought protecting the child's whiteness was paramount) I also seem to remember the foster father made some comments that made it clear he should not be raising a mixed race child. They are also the ones who called in the media circus hopping to stir up a public outcry. Frankly they were lucky to keep the kids they had by the time it was all over.    Also the law that came into play in this case was because of residential schools and other racist policies that split up Native families. I also think placing the child with family is optimal and usually in the best interest of the child unless they are actually unfit.

I understand that it is more complicated and am well aware of the racist history that split up NA families, but you can't make an individual child a symbol or pawn in redressing societal faults. To me the most important facts in the Lexi case were that (1) she was taken from the only home and family she had known for most of her life when she was 6 years old and (2) the justification for doing this under the law was that she was only 1/64 Choctaw. As far as I know, she has not been allowed contact with the foster parents since she was taken away (correct me if wrong)--she was just torn from them abruptly. She didn't know or care that she has a small percentage of NA blood in her DNA; nor did she know or care that some groups who helped fund the foster parents' legal case may have been racist. The point is that she was a child who was made to suffer because the legal system said that her individual feelings did not matter. Absent evidence of abuse, I believe that the best interests of the child are keeping her or him with the foster or adoptive parents who love them, especially if the child has been with them for a long time. If the child has biological relatives who want to be in the child's life and can share cultural knowledge and traditions that the foster or adoptive parents can't, that is great--a child can't have too big of a family. It should not be an either/or situation.