S02.E05: Brothers

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Ah thanks.  I probably missed it.  The whole storyline seems so rushed to me in general that it's hard for me to buy it.  

I personally don't find it too rushed, actually. Let me preface this by saying that I don't know much about addiction, as I don't think I know anyone close to me struggling with it. I only know what I know from television, movies, and various research projects. But what has been implied is that this drug addiction isn't new for Kevin. They haven't stated it on the show yet, but they seem to be showing the audience that Kevin's gone through this before, possibly right after Jack's death. So he isn't developing a drug addiction, if this is the case; he's relapsing into a comfort he knows all too well. So, in that sense, I'd imagine this process would be sped up faster than someone who has just developed a drug addiction. However, I don't know if I'm correct; this is only what I think. 

Plus, we're still in the early stages. Nobody knows about his pain, and he's been taking Vicodin probably regularly now for two weeks (we know there's been a two week gap from the last episode, because Kate told Toby she was eight weeks pregnant and at the end of the last episode, she was six weeks). I guess, though, for TV standards, it feels fairly quick because it technically only was introduced two episodes ago. 

But I've also watched shows that deal with addiction that last about six episodes max before everything's wrapped up in a pretty little bow. So, for a storyline I've seen many times before, it hasn't gotten on my nerves yet. Irritating to see a storyline I've seen a bunch of times before, but I'm not feeling like this is for some Special Episode, like most shows do.

[meep.meep]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

Question:  Do we know EXACTLY how bad Nicky's eyes are?  Or can people tell by the type of frames he has?  By the time I had to wear glasses in the 80s, frames were, in general, fairly thin - even if your eyesight's not too good (I'm not legally blind).  

No, we have no idea.  But that never stopped anyone from speculating.  Nicky is in the army - his glasses are army-issue.  He has no choice in frames.  

[Empress1]

16 hours ago, Kira53 said:

I don't see this at all about the script being about "the black girl doesn't know how to eat a shrimp cocktail."  This is a girl who has come from poverty and a mom in and out of jail. She has been in and out of foster care and the average foster family doesn't take their foster kid out for shrimp cocktail. The "black girls" in Randall's house not only know how to eat shrimp cocktail but they have been exposed to a lot of things that the average poor child hasn't.  As I see it it's just pure economics.  I just don't see it as a black thing.

Yeah. I come from a Black upper-middle-class family (not as wealthy as Randall appears to be - no $140K cars bought with cash, or at all, in our household!) and I've always known how to eat shrimp. 

16 hours ago, Kira53 said:

It's almost impossible to conceive at age 50 without assistance. Of course there are exceptions to every rule but I sure wouldn't bet on it. The media doesn't tell women that the chances of getting pregnant at age 40 are very very small even with medical assistance. You heard it here, don't wait until 40 plus and expect to get pregnant without some highly expensive intervention and even then it just might not happen.

My mother has a friend who is in her early 50s, and when she was in her mid-late 40s she left her husband for a man 12 years her junior. She has three kids; her then-boyfriend had none. When she was around 46 she went to the doctor to ask about her chances of getting pregnant and was told that she was menopausal, so yeah. They ended up breaking up over it. The biological clock is very real. (I have also heard rumors that those very late-in-life Hollywood pregnancies - Laura Linney, Kelly Preston - were carried by surrogates, so who knows.) My great-grandmother had a "thought it was menopause but surprise, you're pregnant!" baby (she was apparently mortified. The baby grew up to be a doctor), but like you say, I wouldn't bet on it. Kate is right to express concern about both her age and her weight when it comes to her pregnancy.

That's about all the slack I'll cut Kate though because she is such an asshole. If I were Madison, I'd quit that group. My best friend once went to a Weight Watchers meeting where she (at the time maybe 15 pounds overweight after giving birth) was treated similarly by a much heavier woman and she found another more supportive meeting. That same "Why are you here?" kind of berating.

(Also, I know this is a nitpick but people on TV are always dropping by workplaces unannounced, which I find rude and weird. There's no reason Kate couldn't have waited until he got home from work.)

6 hours ago, PRgal said:

I think that's why Deja cut off her braids.  She was hit with fashion magazines.  Fashion magazines = being pretty.  Braids = being pretty.

I think she cut them off because Beth told Randall about her alopecia and she did it out of spite. Her short natural hair looks cute though, and it looks like someone took her to get it shaped up after she cut it. Her patches would be visible with hair that short though - and hers appears to be shorter in the back, where her patches were, and longer on top.

I love Randall but he is really clueless. He saw Deja flinch when Beth was unpacking her stuff the first night - he even commented on it to Beth. He'd never lay his hands on anyone in anger but Deja doesn't know that and eating a shrimp tail is really not "OMG I NEED TO STOP THIS NOW" behavior. He could have said "Oh hey, you're not supposed to eat that part" and that would have been it.

Little Randall's "how not to make Kevin mad" notebook broke my heart.

[Driad]

Are any other ER fans picturing a future episode in which Russell takes Kevin to rehab, the way Benton took Carter?

[Drumpf1737]

55 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I think that's why Deja cut off her braids.  She was hit with fashion magazines.  Fashion magazines = being pretty.  Braids = being pretty.

Deja cut her braids off because Beth broke the trust she imbued her with.  This is evidenced by her cutting off the braids immediately after realizing Beth told Randall what they talked about. Honestly, Randall barrelling in to let Deja know that he had been fully briefed on her and Beth's talk is more bothersome (to me) than Randall going in the ladies room. Speaking of...maybe I've watched too much TV in my lifetime, but I wasn't bothered at all by Randall's going in the ladies room because it's a standard TV trope. I've actually never seen it IRL, but on TV, a man in the ladies room is high comedy.

I don't understand how one could call anything on this show "retconning" when it's built on the slow reveal of characters' stories. Jack having a brother is just one more piece to the puzzle of "who was Jack Pearson?" and "how did he affect everyone around him"? I hope all the terrible parents saw Jack's Dad dying in that home all alone and called their kids to make amends. 

Is it because people can more easily identify with Madison that Kate is being drawn as some Ogre for going off on her? I would be pissed if my "safe space" were invaded by the exact archetype I'm trying to escape--because honestly what the fuck is Madison doing in that group? There's no group for people who absolutely fit the American standard of beauty, but still, manage to feel sorry for their privileged selves?

This show is an exception to a lot of the TV rules which is why it's such a phenomenon. It's interesting that most of the things people complain about are elements that would make this show just like every other show on TV.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Drumpf1737

[Paloma]

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't blame Rebecca for trying to reach Jack while he was camping with the boys, but it always annoys me when significant others/friends think that everyone should reconcile with their parents. People make their choices. Some people choose to be shitty parents and that doesn't mean that they are owed a relationship with their kids. Children are not obligated to forgive their shitty parents for being shitty. I don't think Rebecca was pushing him, but it's just something I've seen a lot (both on tv and in real life). Jack already had closure with his dad so he didn't need to see him on his deathbed.

A similar situation happened to an old friend of mine. She had no relationship with her father as a teenager and adult. When he was on his deathbed, he contacted her. She refused to see him. A lot of her friends encouraged her to go, citing reasons like "it's your last chance to reconcile with him," "you'll regret it if you don't go," "you can get closure," "give him one more chance," etc. Although their intentions were good, they were misguided (and came from people who had healthy relationships with their own parents so they couldn't possibly understand why my friend had no interest in seeing him). She didn't go see him. She didn't regret it.

I was estranged from my mother for much of my adult life, and occasional attempts on my part to reconcile (or at least agree to "put the past behind us" so that she could be part of my daughter's life) only resulted in more emotional abuse on her part. After a couple of decades of this, I finally came to terms with our lack of relationship and stopped feeling guilty about it. But some people did encourage me to contact her again as she got old and/or sick, citing the same reasons about regret and closure. About a year before she died, she wrote me a horrible letter (writing nasty letters to various people had always been her "forte") saying she wished I had never been born (in more graphic terms) and other hateful things. The good thing about this letter is that it made me realize that I was not wrong about deciding not to contact her, and that I did not need any more closure. 

Bringing this TMI back to the episode, I thought it was fine for Rebecca to contact Jack to let him know his father was dying and ask if he wanted to come, but I didn't like that she took Kate there and waited for what seemed like a long time until she heard from Jack. That experience had to have raised a lot of questions and concerns in Kate at an age where it would be difficult to understand why they were visiting this dying old man and why his son--her father--was not visiting him. I'm assuming that Jack and Rebecca previously never said much about his father to the kids. In my case, I limited my daughter's contact with my mother (though I did have my daughter write notes and call her occasionally) but tried not to say bad things about my mother, until I was forced to explain the situation when my mother sent her a nasty letter telling her how horrible I was. My daughter was 8 years old at the time. 

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

It's more like the show not having enough women writers.  It's hard to think about things from an opposite sex's perspective.  I'm trying to write a children's book where the central characters are boy-girl twins.  I was going to have them both narrate, but not only would it be confusing, but I could NOT for the life of me write as a boy.  It would either be a narrator or coming from the girl twin's perspective.  At least for the first attempt.  

I looked at the credits, and excepting Fogleman, who has his name on 54 episodes (I'm assuming that's the entire series since he's the creator, whether or not he actively wrote on an episode), 7 women are credited on 40 episodes (with Kay Oyegon credited for 22), whereas there are only 3 men, credited on 23 episodes (the one with the most credits comes in at 17). I had to check a few of the names which seemed gender neutral to me, and two were women and one was a man.

This doesn't read as predominately male to me. 

20 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Bringing this TMI back to the episode, I thought it was fine for Rebecca to contact Jack to let him know his father was dying and ask if he wanted to come, but I didn't like that she took Kate there and waited for what seemed like a long time until she heard from Jack. 

What really bugged me about that (not minimizing damage to Kate), is that she left a message for Jack to call her - and then left their home - where he could get in touch with her. This was pre-cell phone and it's not like he would have the nursing home's number memorized, given his estrangement. Then when the park ranger gets to him, it's because she's called back and is "on the radio." 

It did really bug that Randall went into the bathroom, and that it seemed like the only reason he thought it was wrong was because he was being impatient and not letting her come to him - rather than intruding on women's space. It's hard to believe any decent man these days can be oblivious to boundaries, especially with a wife like Beth. Though I did like that the stall had a confessional aspect to it, where Deja felt safe enough to talk about her past.

I found Toby funny and cute - and yes, over the top. But it did bug that he didn't clean up the water.

Having had two high risk pregnancies (one "geriatric") and a couple of miscarriages, I understood Kate's fear. I slipped and fell when I was in the early stages of the pregnancy after my miscarriage, and had the same reaction - in front of my in-laws (who did not know I was pregnant, but figured it out when I became a blubbering mess). That being said, I didn't like the way she dealt with Toby. I don't expect her to miscarry - mostly because I think with Kate it would be more interesting for her to have a life changing event that makes her put someone else first. But there'll be drama in the high risk pregnancy, no doubt.

[AV8n]

Random thoughts:

I totally thought little Jack was going to eat a worm for some reason.

what are the chances Toby’s little performance goes viral? I saw at least one guy recording it on his phone.

I’m guessing Kate’s nemesis spells her name “Madisyn”. 

[MissLucas]

I really, really wanted to know kid Kevin's reason for being so hard on Randall. Sure it could be anything trivial or childish, but this is 'This Is Us' so I suspect there's more to it and I'm annoyed we never got there. Although those little notes of Randall of how to be a Kevin-whipserer were pretty heartbreaking. I find their relationship to be the most fascinating one on the show - but it hardly ever gets much attention. Rebecca trying to explain to Randall that Deja was crushing on Kevin and why was pretty hilarious.

First episode I disliked Kate.

[debraran]

When I saw Randall in the bathroom, it was fine in the confines of this show, but if a foster child of that age, 12-13 told her social worker, the guy she was staying with followed her in bathroom and stood outside the cubicle until she came out, it might be looked at differently. I think I would have had Sophie check on her.

I can buy some of the things Randall does but not a dad of 2 children. I also feel even if it's a show,  he must have had training in how to treat the child put in your home and issues that might happen. His nerves seem a little over the top and almost a competition with himself to get her to accept him. If I was her, I'd fake it a bit just to get him to relax. l : )

[MBayGal]

Quote

(Also, I know this is a nitpick but people on TV are always dropping by workplaces unannounced, which I find rude and weird. There's no reason Kate couldn't have waited until he got home from work.)

Wasn't she 6 weeks when she went to the dr. and now she told Toby she is 8 weeks?  Unless I'm misremembering, it's even ruder to drop it on him at work if she's already known for 2 weeks.

[SueB]

LOVED the episode.  Randall's awkwardness, Kevin's addiction, and Kate's pregnancy -- I'm invested in all three.  And Jack's brother.  

First, some comments on the topics being discussed:

Nicky's glasses - Nicky is wearing BCG's (Birth Control Glasses).  That's what we in the military call those standard issue black glasses.  They are butt-ugly (and called Birth Control Glasses because no one will have sex with you if you wear them).  It used to be that everyone in the military who had glasses were issued their very own BCGs but in my day you could buy your own frames.  Not so much in Vietnam.  And he could have 20/100 vision and those BCGs will still look like that.  Finally, 20/400 USED to be the limit but so long as correctable to 20/20, you could get in with a waiver.  If they are in the draft? Those waivers happen all the time. Now, "correctable to 20/20" is the rule.

Geriatric Pregnancy/Super Morbidly Obese Pregnancy - No ifs ands or buts, at 37, she's old for having a first baby.  At well over 300 pounds and her height? Her BMI would put her at Super Morbidly Obese.  So this is not only a high risk pregnancy, but Kate is at higher risk for death or long term health problems due to pregnancy. This sounds very harsh but all the good news stories give a false sense of security that waiting til after 35 is no problem and being severely overweight is not a big deal.  It REALLY IS.  Her baby is at 3X the risk for still birth, and a shit-ton more for birth defects.  But I'm still THRILLED for Kate that she's pregnant and really hope it turns out great.  YES, first time post-35 pregnancies happen all the time.  What people don't hear about is the number of miscarriages that people have.  And fertility clinics have a booming business because while it happens all the time, it's not as easy.  Having said all this -- TOBY DOESN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND.  Maybe they had an offscreenville discussion but I bet Kate downplayed the risk to herself.  So, Toby being happy makes perfect sense.  I suspect he will end up hearing all the risks but even then, Kate telling him to tell no-one til birth is a bit OTT.  Waiting until after 20 weeks and the first amniocentisis?  Yes, that's probably what they should do for everyone but immeidate (Randall/Beth/Rebecca/Miguel/Kevin/Sophie) family.  And really, the baby isn't out of the woods until a few months AFTER birth.  So, I know I'm Debbie downer here, but the loss of a child is considered to be the #1 MOST traumatic thing a human being can experience from a psychologists point of view.  Kate & Toby have the opportunity for an amazing life journey (I loved how Rebecca phrased it), but the number of issues is REALLY high and they should keep that in mind.  I loved Kate taking it one step at a time (bean to a grape to a walnut....etc...).  One week at a time with guarded optimism.  Tell family when they get past the amnio and then still keep it relatively small so that they are not dealing with the constant pressure of 'expectations'.  Kate and Toby are going to need family support if it turns out either awesome or terribly bad.  But a lot of healthy, young pregnant mothers wait til 16-20 weeks.  Kate definitely should as well.

Kevin's addiction - 3 weeks.  That's all it takes.  Sometimes even less.  My son had withdrawl symptons after 3 weeks (sweats, chills, phantom pain, itching, hyper irritable) following a major arm reconstruction.  He's 6'2" and 240.  It was so obvious after stopping that this was what it was that my son went "cold turkey".  Which made it worse.  This is where Kevin is right now. Kevin has to get more meds within 2 days or he's going to go up the wall.  And him hiding it is the problem.  He could gut it out but he's still got real knee pain.  So he'll need a non-naracotic.  Which may be insufficient, especially if he took poor care of the knee while on Vicodin.  When on the meds, you can't tell they are - especially if they have an upbeat personality.  And he's hiding from Sophie.  She may not have even known he was on Vicodin to begin with.  He seemed to want to avoid that at the beginning and he hid that this was his solution to finishing the movie.  So, now he's in a corner and not asking for help.  And he's not rationale about it either.  Kate is on the West Coast, Randall is distracted.  This is a job for Sophie.  And there is already the complication of not having been in the same city for months beforehand. So she may think it's something else.  LIFE HACK: "I'm just tired. = I don't want to tell you." more often than not.  I'm thinking Beth may actually spot it first. She doesn't pay much attention to Kevin but she would be one to see through the bullshit Kevin is so adept at putting up. Her relationship with Kevin doesn't come with baggage that obstructs her perspective. Kate, OTOH, would already be driving him to someplace to detox if she saw him. I thought Justin did great at showing all the signs of someone who is both drunk and going through withdrawls.  

Madison - needs help to find a group that fits her issues better. Was totally honest IMO in her reaction to Kate. And Kate should apologize to Madison for yelling at her.  But it's the group leader who needs to fix the mismatch.  Kate was way out of line but Madison's issue is not just a bad fit for this group but really disruptive.  

Brothers Kevin & Randall - Oh how I loved that little moment by the bathroom.  So very 'brothers'.  Although, excuse me for a moment while I yell at Kevin: DON'T TELL RANDALL HE CARES TOO MUCH.  Ahem. I may be projecting.  But yes, telling people they are oversensitive or overcaring is NOT HELPFUL.  It makes the person feel even MORE 'wrong'. Offer perspective on the situation. For example, similar to how Jack did: "Giver her space to come to you.  She has to work this out on her own timetable."  

Brothers Jack & Nicky - This is going to hurt. I know it now.  But I also know that it is because of taking care of Nicky that Jack survived his bad parent.

Rebecca & Kate FTW - I loved their whole storyline.  And Rebecca is a fundamentally good person, IMO, who offered mercy to a dying man.  She didn't give him forgiveness but did ease his heart.  It was, IMO, the absolute right thing to do and she doesn't need to tell Jack unless he needs to hear it someday (but only if he expresses something other than complete disinterest in his dying/dead Dad). ETA: In 1989, Jack & Rebecca would have been listed in the phone book.  The phone book didn't become useless for another decade.

Beth & Deja - They are really bonding and that's great.  And I suspect they will be able to bond over awkward Randall soon.  That'll be even better.  And HOW FUNNY was it to have Beth force Randall to hear that his brother is 'Smokin' Hot' and a 12 year old living with them has a crush on him?  Randall may need therapy but Beth tells it like it is.  

Edited October 25, 2017 by SueB

[OtterMommy]

5 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Did anyone else think Toby looked weird? Like overly made up or something?

What I noticed is that his face didn't match his body. I mean, we know that they pad him--and that's fine, but his face is thin enough (I do think he has lost weight IRL since the show started) that it seems too thin for the body that they've given him.

[marceline]

2 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Is it because people can more easily identify with Madison that Kate is being drawn as some Ogre for going off on her? I would be pissed if my "safe space" were invaded by the exact archetype I'm trying to escape--because honestly what the fuck is Madison doing in that group? There's no group for people who absolutely fit the American standard of beauty, but still, manage to feel sorry for their privileged selves?

For me it has nothing to do with identifying with Madison (I didn't even remember her) and everything to do with how no legitimate 12-step group would've allowed that kind of crosstalk, let alone an extended verbal attack on another member. That kind of behavior is the kind of thing that makes people leave and not come back and the whole point of 12-step groups is that you "keep coming back." That said my TV hot spots are how shows deal with addiction and mental illness. For example I'm pretty surprised that Randall would've been approved as a foster parent just a few months off of his second nervous breakdown (For which we saw no treatment. Which also bothers me.) 

Edited October 25, 2017 by marceline

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Randall: He has to STOP. Seriously. He was a little dorky last season, but now he’s like a humanoid alien interacting with Earthlings for the very first time. Beth should call in a family therapist to sit him down. Maybe if his total lack of impulse control is pointed out by someone other than his wife, he’ll understand what he’s doing to Deja. She should NOT be the one teaching him how to parent her. 

 

Sophie: She isn’t wearing her nurse glasses with Kevin. He’s not yet definitively been shown to have a past addiction, so I can see why Sophie, being distracted by the gala, and not having had any face time with Kevin during his recovery, isn’t putting together the pieces and realizing he’s spiraling. 

 

Kate: What a bitch. Her going off on Madison was unjustified. She’s also pretty mean to Toby, but I hate Toby, so that doesn’t bother me that much. I think they’re trying to show how her fears over her pregnancy are making her behave so nastily, but since she’s always like this it’s a no sell. That said, I understand her fears being a morbidly obese geriatric pregnancy. Especially since getting pregnant for the first time at 35+ is a whole different kettle of fish than a third, fourth, etc. pregnancy when you started making babies in your twenties. 

 

Madison: There’s no call for how Kate treated her, but there’s also no justification for her being in a support group for overweight people. There’s a reason the others didn’t speak up for her, because she’s a thin woman invading their safe space, and they probably felt the same way. It’s also not safe for someone who thinks she’s fat, but isn’t, receiving the same advice and guidance as people who actually are fat, but trying not to be. She should be in a group for other anorexics. She’s going to hinder the group and put herself at risk. 

 

Toby: I knew I couldn’t trust two weeks of not hating Toby to last. Is he even capable of genuine emotion, or are life’s great moments just an excuse for showboating?

 

Nicky: My uncle wore Coke bottle glasses from childhood and was decorated for combat bravery in Vietnam. My dad was active duty, but didn’t serve in combat due to being too young, and his vision was awful from childhood as well. 

 

All of the men on this show should develop a weed habit, especially the California based ones, because they. Need. To. Chill. Kate can get in on it too, maybe she’ll mellow into a pleasant person. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by ZuluQueenOfDwarves

[Empress1]

15 minutes ago, marceline said:

For me it has nothing to do with identifying with Madison (I didn't even remember her) and everything to do with how no legitimate 12-step group would've allowed that kind of crosstalk, let alone an extended verbal attack on another member. That kind of behavior is the kind of thing that makes people leave and not come back and the whole point of 12-step groups is that you "keep coming back." That said my TV hot spots are how shows deal with addiction and mental illness. For example I'm pretty surprised that Randall would've been approved as a foster parent just a few months off of his second nervous breakdown (For which we saw no treatment. Which also bothers me.) 

I agree. With the caveat that I've never been to a 12-step meeting, I was under the impression that they should be welcoming. The way Kate speaks to Madison is abusive. Wouldn't that drag down the rest of the group? If I were in that group as neither Kate nor Madison, I would try to find another because watching Kate be so vicious doesn't do me any good. It doesn't do Kate any good either. (What is the group? Is it OA? If so, their website says they take people with all different kinds of issues with food. I don't think everyone in Kate and Madison's group is obese, but I might be misremembering. You certainly don't have to be obese to have issues with food.)

I think we saw Randall in therapy after his breakdown. I would hope he sees a therapist regularly but I don't know if they've ever said. He's someone who could really benefit from ongoing therapy (note: I think this about everyone!).

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I really, really wanted to know kid Kevin's reason for being so hard on Randall. Sure it could be anything trivial or childish, but this is 'This Is Us' so I suspect there's more to it and I'm annoyed we never got there. Although those little notes of Randall of how to be a Kevin-whipserer were pretty heartbreaking. I find their relationship to be the most fascinating one on the show - but it hardly ever gets much attention. Rebecca trying to explain to Randall that Deja was crushing on Kevin and why was pretty hilarious.

First episode I disliked Kate.

From what we've seen, it seems like jealousy to me. Randall gets more attention, and they're always going on about how smart he is - which he is, but that's got to be tough on Kevin.

I agree, the notebook was pretty heartbreaking. It was lovely that Kevin, at that age, could respond to it.

[MissLucas]

But wouldn't Kevin admit to simply feeling jealous - even it was embarrassing? Jack pretty much offered that up as an answer. The way that the scene was written and acted seemed to point at something else (or something more). Not implying Randall ever did anything to justify Kevin's behavior  because that'd be OOC. But I'm intrigued by the possibility that something else was going on beyond simple jealousy.

Edited October 25, 2017 by MissLucas

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, MissLucas said:

But wouldn't Kevin admit to simply feeling jealous - even it was embarrassing? Jack pretty much offered that up as an answer. The way that the scene was written and acted seemed to point at something else (or something more). Not implying Randall ever did anything to justify Kevin's behavior  because that'd be OOC. But I'm intrigued by the possibility that something else was going on beyond simple jealousy.

Not all people are good at expressing their feelings. Much like Kevin explained to Randall outside the bathroom, Kevin tends to run from his feelings. I used to be much like Kevin. Sometimes, I still am, where I have a lot of feelings but I retreat back into myself when confronted. Also, Kevin, at that age, may not be entirely sure what he's really feeling. It's quite a normal response, in my perspective, anyway. 

But yeah, there's probably something more, but jealousy is probably strong. 

[ShadowFacts]

42 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I agree. With the caveat that I've never been to a 12-step meeting, I was under the impression that they should be welcoming. The way Kate speaks to Madison is abusive. Wouldn't that drag down the rest of the group? If I were in that group as neither Kate nor Madison, I would try to find another because watching Kate be so vicious doesn't do me any good. It doesn't do Kate any good either. (What is the group? Is it OA? If so, their website says they take people with all different kinds of issues with food. I don't think everyone in Kate and Madison's group is obese, but I might be misremembering. You certainly don't have to be obese to have issues with food.)

For sure.  I would probably leave the meeting and head to Dunkin' Donuts (or Dairy Queen).  You don't stand up and disparage someone you find annoying, you grow the hell up and find a way to address the situation in a non-hostile, non-confrontational way, with the group leader or whomever.  I guess the whole (un)clever idea is to get a friend for Kate who is skinny and who she used to hate.  Lame. 

[JasminePhyllisia]

9 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

This show has flashbacks for it's flashbacks.

Yes! Maybe I don't watch enough TV but flashback within a flashback? Too much Freudian digging into Jack's childhood unless they are going to make it relevant and tie it directly into the explanation of his death.

Also, was Rebecca really wearing a cold-shoulder dress in a flashback to (about) 1990? I defy the wardrobe people to prove that this style was in back then. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by JasminePhyllisia

[maggiemae]

Good grief -  Hey Randall, just say something like shrimp are delicious, except for their tails......He looks at her so intently I imagine she feels it. 

[Neurochick]

23 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think whoever is in charge of that OA group, or whatever it is, needed to take Madison aside when she first started coming there and ask her not to come.  Maybe point her to a different group for her problems.  Because, while Kate has no right to lash out at her, her presence there is not helpful to the rest of the group.

If that's OA, no one can tell anybody that they can't go there; if it's therapy maybe.  But there aren't rules as to who can and can't join OA.

Do we know for a fact that Jack's brother died in Vietnam?

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, maggiemae said:

Good grief -  Hey Randall, just say something like shrimp are delicious, except for their tails......He looks at her so intently I imagine she feels it. 

Word.  I, as a viewer, have "known" Randall for a season, and for many parts of his life.  I know that he's a decent, if neurotic, guy who means no one harm.

Even with all that, I still feel like he's coming across as...not quite right...with Deja and his intensity towards her.

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Do we know for a fact that Jack's brother died in Vietnam?

Nope.

[candall]

I skipped Page 3, so maybe this was covered, but, hey, what happened to that woman who dropped fourteen grand on The Manny?  Did she just go quietly home, too humiliated to complain, convinced she was too old and/or too unattractive for The Manny to perform his obligation--not even worth the courtesy of an acknowledgment nod?  Hugs, {{rich lady}}.

 

As I read all the posts about the OA meeting, I had to laugh because it occurs to me that between myself and my friends, I know a LOT about support groups--AA, NA, OA, ACA, WW.  (No gamblers, so far.)  The trick is to find the group with people who are roughly in the same boat as you. 

In big cities, AA meetings are so abundant, you can get as specific as you need--male/homeless, female/attorney, etc.  One overweight friend went to an OA meeting, expecting to find some new pals to help keep her on her diet, but it was only very thin people and she was not made to feel welcome. Afterward,. someone told her, "Look, we're all struggling with anorexia here.  Most of us would literally rather die than be fat [like you.]  Bye."  Ha, I have at least four more stories about winding up in the wrong variation of the right kind of meeting.

Much too long a way of saying:   find a more compatible group, Maddy.

 

 

Looking forward to The Nick Pearson Story.  (I hope he's alive and shows up!)  All the characters aren't interesting to all of us, but every character is interesting to at least some of us.  Why not one more?

[qtpye]

9 hours ago, roughing it said:

I thought he totally sucked, again!  We were right back to the sex stuff being right under the surface with him, what with him grandly swooping everything off his desk because he thinks he's getting some.  Every little gesture from Kate makes him think he's getting some.  Kate makes a comment...oooh it means she wants sex!  Kate looks at her phone....oooh it means she wants sex!  Kate asks to please pass the ketchup...oooh it means she wants sex!  ...in Toby's puny narrow mind anyway.

 

9 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I actually find Toby's character to act like a caricature . Everything he does in life is a big declaration of how much he loves Kate . His personality just doesn't feel realistic to me . Can't he ever just have a normal conversation ? 

 

8 hours ago, Jillybean said:

He's definitely cartoonish and sometimes I think he's there for comic relief (I personally do not find him funny, or charming). I do have to say I don't understand what he sees in Kate. She isn't shown making any contributions to the relationship. She seems to do a lot of taking and make plenty of demands.  I sorta feel like all the characters are more unlikeable this season.

 

7 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Did anyone else think Toby looked weird? Like overly made up or something?

 

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

I agree. With the caveat that I've never been to a 12-step meeting, I was under the impression that they should be welcoming. The way Kate speaks to Madison is abusive. Wouldn't that drag down the rest of the group? If I were in that group as neither Kate nor Madison, I would try to find another because watching Kate be so vicious doesn't do me any good. It doesn't do Kate any good either. (What is the group? Is it OA? If so, their website says they take people with all different kinds of issues with food. I don't think everyone in Kate and Madison's group is obese, but I might be misremembering. You certainly don't have to be obese to have issues with food.)

I think we saw Randall in therapy after his breakdown. I would hope he sees a therapist regularly but I don't know if they've ever said. He's someone who could really benefit from ongoing therapy (note: I think this about everyone!).

I hated the way Toby acted in the coffee shop.  He probably got that poor manager in trouble, who was doing him a favor playing his song.  I wanted a couple to stand up and  say "We have been trying to have a baby for five years, thanks for making us feel like shit, asshole."

I also hate that Kate says hello and Toby thinks that is code for sex.  We get it writers, Toby wants to have sex all the time with Kate, it really is not that big of a surprise and he does not have to act like a horny 14 year old that just saw his first porn.

Kate is really not a nice person.  Yeah, Madison should be in a different group, but Kate assumes that she had no problems because she is conventionally good looking and slim.  If this were true then every actress and model that was ever considered beautiful would have drama free lives and we know that is not true.  It is almost like the irrational dislike Kate has for her mother, simply for existing.  Guess what Kate... in this instance Madison was the bigger person, bye congratulating you on your pregnancy after you treated her horribly.

You know I think the camping trip gave me an epiphany about the boys.  Kevin does resent Randall, because he is Rebecca's favorite, but it goes deeper then that.  Randall and Kevin are both kind of alpha personalities, but in totally different ways.  Randall is thoughtful, intense, intellectual, socially naive, and a little awkward.  Kevin is charismatic, self centered, intuition driven, savvy, and very smart about people.   They are just oil and water.  If Kevin and Randall were not brothers, they would never be friends and it has nothing to do with race. 

I am happy that Rebecca did not try to guilt Jack into saying goodbye to his father.  I also like that her final words to him was that he was a horrible man that deserved to die alone, but his son was awesome. 

[Neurochick]

I don't think it's about Randall disrespecting Deja's boundaries (did people start using that word in the 80's?).  The problem is that when Randall sees Deja he doesn't see HER, he sees himself.  

Randall has to remember that he was adopted by Jack and Rebecca when he was an infant.  He never experienced foster homes, never experienced abuse.  He and Beth took in a foster child because Randall wanted to do what Jack and Rebecca did for him, but that's not what is happening, he's dealing with an older girl who has serious issues.  I didn't like when Randall grabbed Deja's hand, not because Deja came from abuse, but because it's not a nice thing to do, grab someone's hand like that.

Someone here said that Deja cut her braids because she was looking at fashion magazines and doesn't want to look pretty because of sexual abuse.  No, the reason Deja cut her braids was because Beth braided her hair, then betrayed her trust by telling Randall about Deja's issues with her hair, and in anger she cut her braids.

The thing about boundaries is, not everybody has the same boundaries.  Randall and Beth need to understand that Deja's boundaries are going to be higher (if she's healthy they will be higher) so what you do is respect them, don't touch her stuff, don't grab her.  Randall can't treat Deja like he treats his daughters, because Deja doesn't get the family dynamics yet.  

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

The thing about boundaries is, not everybody has the same boundaries.

Absolutely. It makes life tricky, even with people you think you know well. 

[Kira53]

10 hours ago, Trillian said:

I'm already fed up with the Deja and "Randall is stupid" plotline.  You'd think the man had just crawled out of a cave after 30 years or so and doesn't know how to relate to people.

Deja would not have died from trying to eat shrimp tails.  There was no cause to lay hands on her to save her.  And anyway, if Randall had been half-way solicitous of his young charge in the first place, he would have noticed the way she looked at it and would've said  "Ever had shrimp before?  They're lovely, but the tails are tough - don't eat them".

"Sophie (or any woman nearby), would you mind popping [not pooping] into the ladies' room and checking on my foster daughter? " Real simple.

And no grown man should ever that easily put himself in the position of being alone with a female child who is not his daughter, or at least a very close relative. False accusations and misunderstandings happen, and the latter is more likely with a child who is obviously uncomfortable around men (Kevin excepted). If Deja were to allege that Randall assaulted her or that he had acted sexually-inappropriate to her, he's got the worst optics:  bursts into her bedroom and starts ranting about her personal matters and his mental health problems, bursts into the ladies' bathroom after her, bought her a fancy dress and takes her to a grown-up evening event, was alone with her in the car at night.  All innocent acts he did with the best of intentions, but do they ever look bad.  

So Randall should never watch tv with Deja alone in the family room?

[Dreamboat Annie]

Quote

Meanwhile they are really accelerating about Kevin's story line (zzz)

I hope the reason for that is for a damn quick resolution to it.

Quote

On ‎2017‎-‎10‎-‎24 at 10:05 PM, mtlchick said:

Pump the brakes a little bit show.  You're becoming season 2 of Empire. 

 

I totally agree!  We've barely started season two here and with the major unnecessary twist last week, when there is already kind of a lot to explore without it, it reminded me of trying to watch an episode once of a certain producer's many shows.  I swear she treats her viewers like they are too stupid to stay unless there's a twist at every turn.  I would hate to see this show turn into something resembling those. 

[elle]

21 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Randall in the ladies' room was unrealistic.  First for the obvious reason, men are NOT allowed to announce Man Coming In and just stand around chatting to a girl inside, but unrealistic in that there is never a totally free ladies' restroom at an event like that!

Now that you mention that, yes! so true!  That place looked like it was a hotel so there were probably more events going on.  It would have been more realistic that instead of security being called that another woman walked in and started to berate Russell for being there.  The bonding moment between him and Deja could have happened after that.

19 hours ago, Victura said:

Madison was in one of the first episodes where Kate also gets angry at her and several others in the group. She said that she has body dysmorphia / body distortion (where she thinks she's extremely overweight and that's what she sees in the mirror) and admits to the others that they probably think it's a joke that she's there. 

Thank you for explaining this bit of show history.

16 hours ago, Haleth said:

I did love that Rebecca and young Kate had a nice bonding day, even if their plans were interrupted.  For once there was no tension between the

Yes it was nice to see.  Even though the situation was terrible they had that nice moment where Rebecca compliments Kate on her hair and not add a passive/aggressive comment to the end of it and then tells her about Kate and the boys as babies.

Quote

Also, was Rebecca really wearing a cold-shoulder dress in a flashback to (about) 1990? I defy the wardrobe people to prove that this style was in back then. 

It was sleeveless with ties at the top of the shoulder, I believe, I noticed it because I thought it was funny that she told Kate to get sweater for the movies when Kate was wearing a short sleeved mock turtleneck.  It would not surprise me if it was what we now call a cold-shoulder dress since the style of having skin showing through a sleeve has been around in fashion for a long time.  There is nothing new in fashion really, things seem to cycle every 20 years or so.  

A blog with some history of the cold shoulder style with examples from the 30s and 90s.

Edited October 26, 2017 by elle

[SueB]

1 hour ago, candall said:

I skipped Page 3, so maybe this was covered, but, hey, what happened to that woman who dropped fourteen grand on The Manny?  Did she just go quietly home, too humiliated to complain, convinced she was too old and/or too unattractive for The Manny to perform his obligation--not even worth the courtesy of an acknowledgment nod?  Hugs, {{rich lady}}.

I'm presuming that she gets a dinner or some outing with The Manny.  And hopefully it'll be scheduled AFTER Kevin goes to rehab and he handles it well.  Then it'll be worth it to her. It's not like they were going to wrap Kevin up and put him in her car.  Often these things have a specific activity AFTER the auction. 

[Violetgoblin6]

3 hours ago, JasminePhyllisia said:

Yes! Maybe I don't watch enough TV but flashback within a flashback? Too much Freudian digging into Jack's childhood unless they are going to make it relevant and tie it directly into the explanation of his death.

Also, was Rebecca really wearing a cold-shoulder dress in a flashback to (about) 1990? I defy the wardrobe people to prove that this style was in back then. 

Exactly! Rebecca's blue, cold shoulder dress was way too modern and "2017". I noticed it immediately. Her last dress, however, was spot on 1989. Speaking of 1989, are we going back in time with the kid flashbacks? They were doing them in order...like starting in May of 89 with The Big Three and then moving toward 89 Christmas and finally their 1990 10th birthday party. Wonder what year Bec's mom came to visit? Off to Google IMDB. Roadhouse? 

[Dreamboat Annie]

16 hours ago, Jillybean said:

Kate really has become downright unlikeable. She was a real asshole to Madison in the meeting and her behavior is totally unacceptable for any 12-step group or support groups of any kind.  The leader of that group should have stepped in (or other members should have said something). It's called a support group for a reason

No, her behavior is not unacceptable.  It's not only acceptable, it's welcomed.  That's what support groups are for.  You can erupt, you can erupt big time, any time.  You can let loose.  It's understood.  The leader of the group did step in, and asked if anyone else had anything they wanted to say.  Anyone can and should if they want, respond.  There are alternatives to support groups should anyone wish for others to not be there.  One on one counselling, one on one therapy.  There are many affordable alternatives.  Yes, it's called a support group for a reason.  Anyone joining a support group knows that other troubled souls will be there and that it's not a private session, far from it. 

[MoonMountain]

14 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Maybe, you just have to ignore details when buying into a show, but, this thing about Kevin's bum knee ruining his big chance again....well, when he was staying with Randall, he was out there RUNNING pretty well and keeping up with Randall, who is an avid runner.  No mention of a knee issue then.  This whole thing about the injury, addiction, etc.  this season is just too contrived for my taste.

Someone else pointed out on a different thread that last season, Kevin didn't have a cast in the funeral scene. But supposedly this season, he is in a cast when Jack dies. So conveniently his cast was removed in the few days between Jack's death and his funeral?

[MoonMountain]

16 hours ago, Jillybean said:

As for Kevin, with all the celebrity ODs where multiple docs were filling prescriptions for them, I didn't think it'd be this tough for him to get more Vicodin. Why didn't he stock up before he left LA? All he had to do was go see more than one doctor. I suppose now he will turn to street drugs when alcohol isn't cutting it for self-medication. I don't like this storyline, either.

Yes, given that Kevin is supposedly doing very well for himself in Hollywood, pills shouldn't be difficult for him to get. If not from a doctor, from some fancy drug dealer, whether he's in LA, or NYC for that matter.

[pennben]

12 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

This show has flashbacks for it's flashbacks. Next we'll get a flashback of Jack's grandfather drinking and Jack's father as a kid. Also, we've already got the triplets in 4 stages of their lives; infants, 10 year-olds, teens and present day. And they are about to add them in their 20's! Next it will be a flashback from 5 years ago--see how the triplets were in their early 30's! I can't help but snark even though it's all fairly well done. It's just so much. We've seen flashbacks of Jack as a kid, in war, before he was a father, as a new father and a father of teens. Plus we've got present day and they are adding The Big Three in their 20's. That's a lot, am I wrong?

So, when do you think we will start getting flashforwards?  Fogelman must be pissed that Lost got to that first, but I guarantee that they are coming.......because.....boom!!!  Twist!!! Oh My God!! It's Kate's kid all grown up!....Sigh.  I bet he's also pissed that Six Feet Under stole his perfect finale.  

[Court]

Regarding the women's restroom, my dad had to drag my sister and I out by entering in once. Granted, we were younger than Deja. He did ask women to check on us but none of them would because they assumed he was a creep. It was tough for him because he didn't feel comfortable taking us into the men's restroom at our age but he knew he couldn't accompany us into women's restroom either. I was 7, she was 5 and when he finally went in after 30 minutes he saw my sister crawling under each stall door to get toilet paper for me. I refused to leave my stall until I had some. Don't ask me why my sister felt it necessary to crawl to accomplish this task. 

[possibilities]

Randall was in a tough position.

How long does he wait for her to come out of there? What if she's hurting herself in some way, or what if she's not even in there anymore and has run away?

What if he asks someone else to go in after her and Deja denies knowing him, or makes a scene, or whoever he asks just assumes he's a creep and calls security? He could have asked Sophie, but he didn't want to leave the door in case Deja bolted while he wasn't looking. And if he had gone to find Sophie, she would have been pre-occupied with the Kevin fiasco.

It's similar to when Kate had that bratty teenage daughter of her boss in the car; she had no good options, so she made a choice and hoped for the best.

I agree, though, that the entire incident was set up by Randall absurdly reaching for her/the shrimp instead of saying something tactfully or just not worrying about it so much; it wasn't really a dangerous situation, and he over-reacted by a mile.

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

Also unrealistic:  Little Jack and Nicky sitting in the car that long. My brothers and I would never have minded that well. We would have been out and playing in the area. What is up with little Kevin not liking Randall?  We fought sometimes, but we played together all day, every day. We were each other's whole world with the parents just  overlords we took for granted, like the grown-ups in Peanuts.

Do we know how long they had been sitting in the car. Maybe Jack feared his drunk Dad would punish him and Nicky if they dared to get out and play. Kevin may not like Randall simply because he is envious of the attention that Randall gets from his parents. Last year we saw that Kevin's friends made fun of Randall, calling him Webster. Sometimes siblings just do not get along. 

[kissedbyarose]

32 minutes ago, possibilities said:

He could have asked Sophie, but he didn't want to leave the door in case Deja bolted while he wasn't looking. And if he had gone to find Sophie, she would have been pre-occupied with the Kevin fiasco.

He could’ve called/texted Sophie instead and stayed nearby.

I liked the episode fine even though the storylines (well, just Kate and Randall’s) themselves are still not that interesting. I actually like addiction storylines but they are rarely done well and often blink-and-you-miss-it type arcs (and often never mentioned again.) 

I think for me, I don’t see Kate’s pregnancy and Randall’s fostering hijinks as a natural progression from their storylines last season. Especially Randall who (as many of you rightly pointed out) had a very emotionally taxing year. How is he adjusting from working all the time to staying at home? Is it temporary? How are the girls dealing with all of these changes? Did Beth really want to go back to work? What about her family? I’d rather see any of that than this. 

I’m not a fan of Kate so... but I was definitely interested in her trying to unpack her issues at that camp before it became a “relationship” thing. 

I continue to love the flashbacks though. I think I prefer them over the present day since the Big Three actually interact more often in them.

[CelticBlackCat]

5 hours ago, JasminePhyllisia said:

Yes! Maybe I don't watch enough TV but flashback within a flashback? Too much Freudian digging into Jack's childhood unless they are going to make it relevant and tie it directly into the explanation of his death.

Also, was Rebecca really wearing a cold-shoulder dress in a flashback to (about) 1990? I defy the wardrobe people to prove that this style was in back then. 

Rebecca's dress looked a little off to me too but back then there were some styles that played with the sleeves a bit, like dropped shoulders and the like, but it wasn't called cold-shoulder back then.  This isn't the first time in the history of fashion that shoulders have had exposures.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, candall said:

I skipped Page 3, so maybe this was covered, but, hey, what happened to that woman who dropped fourteen grand on The Manny?  Did she just go quietly home, too humiliated to complain, convinced she was too old and/or too unattractive for The Manny to perform his obligation--not even worth the courtesy of an acknowledgment nod?  Hugs, {{rich lady}}.

Usually when a date is an auction item, it's not expected to happen that night. After the auction ends, she and the date person arrange a time and place to meet.

4 hours ago, elle said:

It was sleeveless with ties at the top of the shoulder, I believe, I noticed it because I thought it was funny that she told Kate to get sweater for the movies when Kate was wearing a short sleeved mock turtleneck.  It would not surprise me if it was what we now call a cold-shoulder dress since the style of having skin showing through a sleeve has been around in fashion for a long time.  There is nothing new in fashion really, things seem to cycle every 20 years or so.  

A blog with some history of the cold shoulder style with examples from the 30s and 90s.

 

OMG, the short sleeved mock turtle neck was perfect late 80s/early 90s costuming!

Loved that the Donna Karan dress that Hilary wore in 1993 combined the mock turtleneck AND the shoulderless trends together.

I also found a Melrose Place cast photo from 1992 with Alyssa Milano wearing an off the shoulder dress with little ties on top! It's a little hard to see because his hand is covering the top part of her shoulder (heh, love that Heather Locklear is just wearing a flesh colored bra).

 

[debraran]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

Randall was in a tough position.

How long does he wait for her to come out of there? What if she's hurting herself in some way, or what if she's not even in there anymore and has run away?

What if he asks someone else to go in after her and Deja denies knowing him, or makes a scene, or whoever he asks just assumes he's a creep and calls security? He could have asked Sophie, but he didn't want to leave the door in case Deja bolted while he wasn't looking. And if he had gone to find Sophie, she would have been pre-occupied with the Kevin fiasco.

It's similar to when Kate had that bratty teenage daughter of her boss in the car; she had no good options, so she made a choice and hoped for the best.

I agree, though, that the entire incident was set up by Randall absurdly reaching for her/the shrimp instead of saying something tactfully or just not worrying about it so much; it wasn't really a dangerous situation, and he over-reacted by a mile.

I think since it was present time, a text to someone would be fine.  She wasn't 5 or opening the door and asking her to please come out. I also didn't understand how such a huge bathroom could be be empty that whole time.  I normally think the writers are fine but this scene with the shrimp was so dumb and stereotyped it was below the norm for the show and the empty bathroom and confessional, it was okay but they are making Randall look clueless and he's not.  Another more logical scene could have been used for the "don't like to be grabbed" talk although he saw her reaction with the cigarettes. I don't think any of us would grab our friends arm or kids to tell them not to eat something, your voice or whispering to them would work without the attention a grab brings. (unless she was allergic to something and forgot)

Why they are bringing in Nicky is confusing. Is it just to show why he might be drinking along with his dad's relationship? Does he feel guilty? But why now? If he's dead, it's a conversation but you can't make your relationship with your brother, your kids. If he's alive, why wouldn't he be around? Just another twist I hope isn't put in just for the "twist" angle.

I felt a little discouraged at work when This is Us lovers were not into talking about it anymore. A few of them said they are watching, but it's lost the magic of the first season. One woman said the writing is off and another said her husband commented on the same thing. It was fresh last year, different and now it's like they trying too hard. I hope that isn't the case, it's hard to keep the quality up always, but I still love the flashback scenes and I feel they are at more of a loss at what to do with the present day characters.

[Johnny Dollar]

Young Kevin was a real asshole. 

[ShadowFacts]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

You know I think the camping trip gave me an epiphany about the boys.  Kevin does resent Randall, because he is Rebecca's favorite, but it goes deeper then that.  Randall and Kevin are both kind of alpha personalities, but in totally different ways.  Randall is thoughtful, intense, intellectual, socially naive, and a little awkward.  Kevin is charismatic, self centered, intuition driven, savvy, and very smart about people.   They are just oil and water.  If Kevin and Randall were not brothers, they would never be friends and it has nothing to do with race. 

That's an interesting analysis.  I keep going back to that scene early last season where little Kevin says words to the effect, "I should have been the star in this family."  I think that drives him, he wants to be top dog and Randall was in the way of that. 

[Jillybean]

8 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

No, her behavior is not unacceptable.  It's not only acceptable, it's welcomed.  That's what support groups are for.  You can erupt, you can erupt big time, any time.  You can let loose.  It's understood.  The leader of the group did step in, and asked if anyone else had anything they wanted to say.  Anyone can and should if they want, respond.  There are alternatives to support groups should anyone wish for others to not be there.  One on one counselling, one on one therapy.  There are many affordable alternatives.  Yes, it's called a support group for a reason.  Anyone joining a support group knows that other troubled souls will be there and that it's not a private session, far from it. 

For clarification, are you saying that it's acceptable for one group member to personally, vehemently attack another? I ask out of genuine interest because I have never heard of this before. Ever.

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

For clarification, are you saying that it's acceptable for one group member to personally, vehemently attack another? I ask out of genuine interest because I have never heard of this before. Ever.

I would also be interested in knowing the therapeutic value of people spewing personal venom.  How does that fit under the 'support' umbrella? 

[luna1122]

Madison is something of an asshole, but Kate is a bigger one, and I don't mean that literally, tho, well, yeah. I've never been to any kind of group therapy/meeting, so I don't know the parameters, but Kate seemed out of line and petty and jealous and hateful. And she often does, not just with skinny bitches. Madison being so genuinely happy about Kate's baby was kind of sweet, tho if they're going to make them BFFs now, ugh. I did love Toby's 'Did you kill Madison?' or however he asked it-- pretty funny. Not funny or cute: Toby's coffee shop antics. Ugh, strangers just don't care that much if you're having a baby, dude. I mean, I probably would have smiled a little had I been there and somebody pulled this little performance, but it went on too long, and then when he pulled the Flashdance thing that the poor coffee shop folks are gonna have to clean up: asshole move. Of course Toby's fave song is by Hootie.

The Father John Misty song at the end was way too on the nose, but kind of nice.

Randall is being way too intense with Deja, and him following her into the bathroom seemed extremely inappropriate and intrusive.

I love Kevin, but I don't care about this addiction storyline. I just want it over.

I eyerolled that Jack has a brother we've never previously heard of, but I'm also a little intrigued despite myself.

And yeah...off the shoulder tops with little ties like that have been around forever. It is not a new trend.