S02.E05: Brothers

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Kate surprises Toby at work. Kevin and Randall attend a charity fundraiser for Sophie's hospital. Jack takes the boys on a camping trip, leaving Rebecca to deal with some unexpected news.

Promo:

[Armchair Critic]

So Jack had a brother that died in Vietnam? Maybe Jack feels guilty because he was supposed to be looking out for him?

[Neurochick]

Whoa, Jack had a brother.  What happened to him?  Did he die in Vietnam?  Maybe he didn't die in Vietnam, maybe he became an addict.  I wonder.

[J0nas3]

He wants his sons to get along as well as he did with his own brother.

[Lady Calypso]

All I want to do is like Adult Kate, but she makes it so, so hard. Her rivalry with Madison is a bit irritating, although I appreciate the continuity of Kate snapping at Madison. She can't even really blame it on the baby because she's done it in season 1 to her. I kind of like Madison. Maybe going to that particular group isn't the best thing and she could definitely find a group that has more people like her, but Kate has no right to keep bitching about her not having problems. Also, Madison being pissed at Kate, then being concerned when she thought she was hurt, and then complete elation when Kate told her about her pregnancy was awesome. Madison doesn't dwell on silly things. 

And I do enjoy seeing Kate interacting with other people more. I also found myself chuckling at Toby's happy song scene. 

I love seeing more Kevin. It's so interesting to see more layers to him, both in the past and in the present. He isn't the most likable guy, especially under emotional stress, but I'm just glad to see more of it. Seeing his interactions with Jack compared to Jack/Randall, I get all sides. Jack doesn't feel like he can talk to Kevin like he can with Randall because Kevin's closed off and sullen. Kevin feels left out because here's another instance of Jack jumping to Randall's side. Sure, Kevin is highly difficult because he's being a brat, and he is treating Randall horribly, so Jack defending Randall makes perfect sense. But Jack not working harder to really talk to Kevin like he does with Randall is just sad. It seems like Jack just gave up when things got hard with Kevin. Jack's lucky that Kevin calmed down and went back out.

Rebecca going to see Jack's dad on his deathbed was nice. Even though we only got a few Rebecca/Kate scenes, it was nice to see a perfectly loving relationship there. I guess they really want Rebecca's good mom skills coming out, as they focused way too much on her flaws and mistakes last season.

Kevin in the present is clearly struggling with his addiction, and it's already affecting his personal relationships. It was just sad to see how hard Kevin was trying to hide it. But, as we have seen with Kevin before, he turns into a downright ass when he feels cornered in some way. Yes, Sophie deserved a better apology, but we are seeing the signs of an addict, so I get the feeling that we'll just see more of his spiral. Unfortunately, this is a side to Kevin we'll probably see for quite a few more episodes, especially since none are aware of his relapse. 

Randall irritates me when he goes into cool dad mode, but mostly because he's still getting to know Deja and after a month, you'd think he would understand that what he's doing isn't working. Though I did love the scene with them in the bathroom. I like Deja finally opening up to Randall, even if it was under unfortunate circumstances. 

Oh...so....wait, Jack had a brother who served with him and then died? That...ok, then. 

[Spartan Girl]

And the revelations continue! Jack has a little brother that was killed in Vietnam! That explains a lot...

Poor Jack. I honestly don't blame him for not seeing his dad after what a jerk he was. Maybe he still should have, just for his own closure.

Poor Deja. I figured her distrust of Randall stemmed from a history of abuse.

Gross of Toby to assume Kate wanted table sex, but he kind of made up for it with his excitement over the baby.

[SimoneS]

I am so happy that Toby got a chance to be happy about having a baby. Damn, Kate really can suck the joy out of any situation. 

Jack having a brother is a twist. He didn't directly reconcile Kevin with Randall, but taking them camp did create the circumstances.

Randall and Beth are so adorable. Keep trying too hard, Randall, it makes you even more lovable.

Edited October 25, 2017 by SimoneS

[ByaNose]

Deja, I’m sorry for your rough life but please leave my show. Thank you. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by ByaNose

[mtlchick]

That line about black people not being jealous about not being auctioned off had me chuckle more than I should have.  #Americanhistory  At least Randall had the break through with Deja that he was hoping for. 

Meanwhile they are really accelerating about Kevin's story line (zzz) but dun dun dun...Jack had a brother!  Who was in the army with him!  And probably died and harbours more guilt!  

Pump the brakes a little bit show.  You're becoming season 2 of Empire. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by mtlchick

[ShadowFacts]

Little Jack could not have been any more precious.  Where do they find these kid actors? 

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, mtlchick said:

That line about black lines not being jealous about being auctioned off had me chuckle more than I should have.  #Americanhistory  

LOL! That was funny and probably something that a black person would say at that moment.

Edited October 25, 2017 by SimoneS

[debraran]

I liked this episode. The army plot is going to take front stage as Fogleman said. Was that his brother or Dad in picture? I didn't realize he had a brother. Love the glasses, made him more precious.

The gala was good to highlight Kevin's addiction, I wish the "black girl wont know how to eat a shrimp" was done differently. I'm glad they talked later though. I work in a doctor's office and those calls for drugs are so common...I dropped my pills, someone stole them, I had to take more because of the pain, I lost them....it's sad but so common.

Great camping scene and I hope to see more of Randall and Kevin at that age. I'm glad Jack stayed with them. This was his time, if he visits his Dad later, fine, but he had thousands of chances to see him and his grandkids and didn't.

Edited October 25, 2017 by debraran

[Katy M]

I think whoever is in charge of that OA group, or whatever it is, needed to take Madison aside when she first started coming there and ask her not to come.  Maybe point her to a different group for her problems.  Because, while Kate has no right to lash out at her, her presence there is not helpful to the rest of the group.

Did Randall seriously freak out just because Deja was going to eat a shrimp tail?  Did I understand that correctly?  First of all, I've eaten the tails before.  It's not that big of a deal.  Second of all, if he was worried about that, why not say something during the ten minutes she was staring at it?  How ridiculous.  And, I would have said that if it was one of his own daughters and not a foster kid who has shown signs of being abuse.  the whole situation was just ridiculous.

Kevin was a jerk, no two ways about it.  But, normally, when you're about to go on stage to introduce someone who don't have eyes on, you take two minutes to find them and give them a heads up first.  

I love that Toby was so enthusiastic, but I do not like that he made a huge mess for someone else to clean up when he poured a bucket of water over himself.  

[mansfolly]

See that Michaels? It used to be a Kohls.  Hahaha. Love awkward Randall.

Glad he made some headway with Deja.

The whole show I'm like, hey girlfriend Sophie - the nurse! - can't you tell something is really wrong with your extremely sweaty, wet boyfriend!? Jeesh.

He really should have apologized to that woman who dropped $14k on him.

This show loves its surprise endings. (Me too).

I hope Kate and girl from therapy become good friends! Sorry to be mean, but if Kate got in a really bad car accident -- I don't know how the airbags would deploy.

Still don't like Toby -- silly happy Flashdance and all.

Edited October 25, 2017 by mansfolly
spelling error.

[WhosThatGirl]

Jack had a brother? First real shocker for me this season. I wonder if Rebecca ever finds out.

Ugh god is Kate annoying. I get that skinny girl needs another weight group but shut up Kate! 

[ByaNose]

1 minute ago, mansfolly said:

See that Michaels? It used to be a Kohls.  Hahaha. Love awkward Russell.

Glad he made some headway with Deja.

The whole show I'm like, hey girlfriend Sophie - the nurse! - can't you tell something is really wrong with your extremely sweaty, wet boyfriend!? Jeesh.

He really should have apologized to that woman who dropped $14k on him.

This show loves its surprise endings. (Me too).

I hope Kate and girl from therapy become good friends! Sorry to be mean, but if Kate got in a really bad car accident -- I don't know how the airbags would deploy.

Still don't like Toby -- silly happy Flashdance and all.

But I love Toby. We will have to agree to disagree. LOL!!!!!

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, mansfolly said:

The whole show I'm like, hey girlfriend Sophie - the nurse! - can't you tell something is really wrong with your extremely sweaty, wet boyfriend!? Jeesh.

Yeah, she noticed he was drunk.  I don't think he's been spending much time with her.  We know he spent the night at Randall's.  He's probably avoiding her for just that reason.

[mansfolly]

Quote

Little Jack could not have been any more precious.  Where do they find these kid actors? 

IDK, but he really reminded me of that weird kid from Bridesmaids -- older, hair cut, and no glasses??

[LadyNebula]

Small complaint, but an issue for me as a pharmacy tech: Kevin said he was out of refills on his Vicodin.  There would be no refills, as it's a Schedule II drug.  He would need a brand new RX for every fill.  Sorry, it just bugged me.

[chocolatine]

Sigh, a ret-conned sibling, how original. Would someone with poor eyesight have even been allowed into combat?

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, chocolatine said:

Sigh, a ret-conned sibling, how original. Would someone with poor eyesight have even been allowed into combat?

I don't think he ever mentioned being an only child, so it's not a ret-con.  I actually thought he mentioned a brother once last season, but I could be wrong.  I know that Rebecca had a sister, so maybe I just mirrored them in my head.

[tennisgurl]

Little Jack was freaking adorable. So was the kid playing his little brother. Who apparently died in Vietnam. Poor Jack. I can understand not wanting to see his asshole dad, but I do like that Rebecca met him and told him that Jack was a good father and husband. I really do think that, the more we hear about Jacks past, the more I feel like he overcompensated by being Super Dad out of fear of becoming like his own dad, or now, maybe dealing with survivors guilt about his brother dying in Vietnam. I wonder if Rebecca knows he had a brother?

Oh Kevin. He is already spiraling, and no one is picking up on it. He was a jerk at the event, but I did like his interactions with Randall and Daja. He was really good with her, without trying too damn hard like Randall does. 

Randall trying to relate to a kid is like a middle school guidance counselor trying to free style rap about changing body parts at a super awkward assembly. 

Madison might be annoying, and she really should be in a different support group, but Kate really was a total asshole to her. Her obvious disdain for this woman she hardly knows is a little bit funny, but also really off putting. She even made me feel bad for Toby when she was telling him he couldn't ever talk about the pregnancy. Kate really has a prickly edge that comes out at times. I did enjoy Madison's reaction to finding out Kate is pregnant. Maybe they can become friends? Kate needs more friends outside her family and fiance. 

[SnoGirl]

Oh man, Randall is going to feel SO guilty when everything comes out about Kevin. Kevin literally told him what was wrong....this is not going to end well between the brothers. I'm a lot like Randall, this is going to eat him alive.

[debraran]

1 minute ago, LadyNebula said:

Small complaint, but an issue for me as a pharmacy tech: Kevin said he was out of refills on his Vicodin.  There would be no refills, as it's a Schedule II drug.  He would need a brand new RX for every fill.  Sorry, it just bugged me.

Yeah , I work at a medical office and worked at a pharmacy before that and it wasn't accurate at all, but his call was. I've heard every excuse there was and seen so many shaky and sweaty patients begging for more pills.

[Straycat80]

2 minutes ago, LadyNebula said:

Small complaint, but an issue for me as a pharmacy tech: Kevin said he was out of refills on his Vicodin.  There would be no refills, as it's a Schedule II drug.  He would need a brand new RX for every fill.  Sorry, it just bugged me.

Yep, pharmacy tech of ten years here, that bugged me too. Plus a doctor he had not seen recently would not just call in a prescription for him. 

[LadyNebula]

Just now, debraran said:

Yeah , I work at a medical office and worked at a pharmacy before that and it wasn't accurate at all, but his call was. I've heard every excuse there was and seen so many shaky and sweaty patients begging for more pills.

Same.  I hear that same phone call 5 times a week.

[AmandaPanda]

The leader of that OA group really needs to step in when Kate starts berating Madison. That is so inappropriate and makes it for a hostile environment for others. Dear lord.

Love that Deja is starting to open up to Randall. Realistically, it would probably take her longer, but from a drama standpoint, they need to speed up that relationship development. Looking forward to seeing how that continues. 

[balmz]

mixed feelings

 

good to see that jack didn't see his jerk of a father, he deserves to die alone and sad

 

randall and deja just annoyed me to no end, like seriously randall give her some space, let her come to you, the shrimp thing was really annoying and randall bothering her in the bathroom was creepy, surprised no one called security on him, also him trying to be cool was cringeworthy

Deja lost sympathy points from me with calling the lady ugly, that was mean, though it doesn't justify deja being abused

 

kid kevin annoyed me so much, i wanted to punch him in the face

 

adult kevin was ok but sophie annoyed me, like how was it your night? kevin is the one being auctioned not you, also was surprised no one sent someone to look for kevin

 

kid jack was ok, the brother was kinda random

 

kate annoyed me, like that was so rude to madison, if i were the leader of the group, i would kick kate out for being like that

 

toby was annoying, the desk sex was gross and the love song was so stupid

[Dreamboat Annie]

YAY to Jack for putting quality time (sorry for using the ever overused term "quality time" but it seems to fit here) with his beloved sons before any time with someone who's been dead to him for a long time.  If anything has been proved through flashbacks at all, it's that that guy is an asshole.  Nothing redeeming about him.

So... maybe Madison's not so annoying after all.  Nah... she is.

Dear Writers:  Please quickly resolve the drugged-addicted-Kevin thing.  I don't like it. 

I already like Nicky.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Dreamboat Annie

[LadyNebula]

Would Jack and his brother have been in the same unit?  Didn't they stop doing that after WW2 and the Sullivans?

[mmecorday]

Quote

Would someone with poor eyesight have even been allowed into combat?

He might not necessarily have been a combat soldier. He could have been a medic or served in another capacity.

[Laurie4H]

Why does Kate always have to mention she is 37?  An she says she is having a geriatric pregnancy?  Weight wise it’s not healthy but these days 37 is not that old go have a child.  

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Laurie4H said:

Why does Kate always have to mention she is 37?  An she says she is having a geriatric pregnancy?  Weight wise it’s not healthy but these days 37 is not that old go have a child.  

She keeps mentioning it because it is a risk factor. And the technical definition of geriatric pregnancy is a pregnancy in a woman 35 or older.  Kate did not make up the term.  Although, for PC reasons, it's usually now referred to as "advanced age pregnancy."  

[mmecorday]

Quote

Weight wise it’s not healthy but these days 37 is not that old go have a child.  

Heck, Janet Jackson had a baby when she was 50. She was really serious about that waiting a while thing.

[Conotocarious]

Well after 35 you are officially considered Advanced Maternal Age, modern times or not.

[BoogieBurns]

Are we positive his brother died? I mean, sure, we can assume. But all we know for sure is that Jack had a brother and they were in Vietnam together.

Randall, I love a good Blizzard from DQ too. He wasn't freaking out about her almost eating the shrimp tail, he was reaching to tell her not to and she recoiled with a huge overreaction. I think it seemed like he was being dramatic, but it was her. 

I'm so much like Kate, I decided I'm not going to tell people I'm pregnant until I am basically in labor. Not because of my size, but because of all the advice people love giving. I'll just let everyone think I got fat in my belly only. 

Can't imagine having a parent leave me in the car while they drink at a bar and take their sweet time. What a sucky life Jack had.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, BoogieBurns said:

Randall, I love a good Blizzard from DQ too. He wasn't freaking out about her almost eating the shrimp tail, he was reaching to tell her not to and she recoiled with a huge overreaction. I think it seemed like he was being dramatic, but it was her. 

He didn't need to reach to tell her not to. She was literally looking at the thing, in her hand, for a good 10 seconds before she slowly moved it to her mouth.  "Hey, don't eat that," with no hand movements would have sufficed.

[Cardie]

I didn't love every aspect of the writing of the episode but the execution was above average and I enjoyed it as a whole. The surprise reveal of the brother explains that Jack had to practice being a dad to Nicky as well as part of a close brotherly relationship. He continues to push these values in his adult life. We know that his investment in parenting is a reaction to his father's abuse and neglect but we didn't know before now that it had been going on since he was very young.

I agree that it was nice to see Rebecca and Kate having a conflict free, affectionate day together. I was relieved that Jack's douche dad didn't remark on her weight.

For a genius Randall is pretty dense for not having noticed that Deja is terrified of him. Why would he grab at the shrimp and then invade the ladies' room? At least she tells him about the abuse, which any observant adult could have figured out weeks ago.

Not loving the Kate or Kevin stories.

I've seen photos of Vietnamese war soldiers wearing glasses, and trainees from our city's training base often are bespectacled. I think it depends on how severe the vision deficit is.

[elle]

8 minutes ago, hovegeta said:

randall and deja just annoyed me to no end, like seriously randall give her some space, let her come to you, the shrimp thing was really annoying and randall bothering her in the bathroom was creepy, surprised no one called security on him, also him trying to be cool was cringeworthy

Well, it is a TV show.  Seriously, security should have been called, no call for Randall to go into the ladies room.  What is should/could have done is ask the woman who walked out to go check on Deja for him.  Nice cut between young Randall saying he had no patience to this scene.  He is just so desperate for everyone to like him.

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh Kevin. He is already spiraling, and no one is picking up on it. He was a jerk at the event, but I did like his interactions with Randall and Daja. He was really good with her, without trying too damn hard like Randall does. 

Randall trying to relate to a kid is like a middle school guidance counselor trying to free style rap about changing body parts at a super awkward assembly. 

We have seen Kevin have a natural rapport with kids.  It is a nice facet of his character.

I did have the thought when Randall got up to find Deja that once again Kevin's family is walking out on one of his events.  As for his walking out, why wasn't someone running up and down the hall or checking the bathroom to find him when he didn't appear?

I could relate to the conversation between Jack and Kevin in the tent with the "I don't want to talk about it" from Jack's side of the conversation.  Can not count how many times I have heard "Do we have to talk about this?" from darling daughter.

I really enjoyed seeing Rebecca and young Kate getting along.  I did laugh at Rebecca telling her to get a sweater while she is standing there in a sleeveless dress.   I was taken out of the scene though by the mention of the movie "Turner and Hooch" because I thought it was rated R, found out it was PG.  Both movies came out in 1989 for those of us keeping track of timelines.

29 minutes ago, LadyNebula said:

Small complaint, but an issue for me as a pharmacy tech: Kevin said he was out of refills on his Vicodin.  There would be no refills, as it's a Schedule II drug.  He would need a brand new RX for every fill.  Sorry, it just bugged me.

Is there not a rule that a doctor can not prescribe outside of their licensing state. i.e. a CA doctor could not write a prescription to filled in NY?

[Rachel RSL]

41 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh Kevin. He is already spiraling, and no one is picking up on it. 

Probably the reason nobody is picking up on it yet is that Kevin is pretty much always an immature, self-centered jerk. Until he completely breaks down, how would anybody be able to tell the difference?  I'm still trying really hard to like that character but I see nothing to root for in adult or kid Kevin. 

Remember those 5 seconds when Kate worked for Jamie Gertz's character and she was strong and confident and an all-around badass? I miss those days.

Randall remains awesome.

[milner]

Pardon my poor memory but who is Nicky?   Never mind.   Jack’s brother. DUH

Edited October 25, 2017 by milner
Memory lapse sorry

[elle]

20 minutes ago, LadyNebula said:

Would Jack and his brother have been in the same unit?  Didn't they stop doing that after WW2 and the Sullivans?

I thought that was the case too.  According to a quick google search

While ships and stories are part of the brothers' legacy, the mythical "Sullivan law" prohibiting siblings from serving together on the same ship is not. Today, Navy policy remains the same as in 1942: while siblings are not encouraged to serve together, exceptions can be made as long as the ship is not in a hostile firing zone. http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/1,12044,ML_sullivans_bkp,00.html

Sole Survivor Policy

The Sole Survivor Policy or DoD Directive 1315.15 "Special Separation Policies for Survivorship" describes a set of regulations in the Military of the United Statesthat are designed to protect members of a family from the draft or from combat duty if they have already lost family members in military service.

As someone noted, depending on the brother's eyesight, he probably would have been assigned to a non combat unit.  However, as is often the case, that does not exempt you from being a casualty of war.

[wilnil]

Just now, milner said:

Pardon my poor memory but who is Nicky?

The brother we've just learned young Jack had.

[elle]

1 minute ago, milner said:

Pardon my poor memory but who is Nicky?

It is not your memory!  

Nicky is Jack's brother, looks to be younger, to whom we have just been introduced.

[Jodithgrace]

It's not your memory. I think this is the first time we've heard of Nicky. Jack's brother, apparently, who seems to have been with him in the Army.

[Kira53]

54 minutes ago, debraran said:

I liked this episode. The army plot is going to take front stage as Fogleman said. Was that his brother or Dad in picture? I didn't realize he had a brother. Love the glasses, made him more precious.

The gala was good to highlight Kevin's addiction, I wish the "black girl wont know how to eat a shrimp" was done differently. I'm glad they talked later though. I work in a doctor's office and those calls for drugs are so common...I dropped my pills, someone stole them, I had to take more because of the pain, I lost them....it's sad but so common.

Great camping scene and I hope to see more of Randall and Kevin at that age. I'm glad Jack stayed with them. This was his time, if he visits his Dad later, fine, but he had thousands of chances to see him and his grandkids and didn't.

I don't see this at all about the script being about "the black girl doesn't know how to eat a shrimp cocktail."  This is a girl who has come from poverty and a mom in and out of jail. She has been in and out of foster care and the average foster family doesn't take their foster kid out for shrimp cocktail. The "black girls" in Randall's house not only know how to eat shrimp cocktail but they have been exposed to a lot of things that the average poor child hasn't.  As I see it it's just pure economics.  I just don't see it as a black thing.

[Trillium]

Kate,please stop trying for a gold medal in the Pain Olympics.

[ChromaKelly]

Ugh... freaking Toby. God I can't stand him and his constant horndog crap and his grand gestures. 
Kate is such a joyless person. While Madison is not overweight, she could still have weight/eating related issues. OK, please correct me if this was covered, I don't remember. She could be bulimic or had been overweight and lost the weight. There's no need for Kate to be such an asshole to her and the group leader should tell her to knock it off.
I'm not digging the Kevin pill addiction thing, it's too fast and out of nowhere.
Randall, back the fuck off. Seriously. If they were real people I'd add them to the FB adoptive parenting group I'm in, they need it. Keep their world small. Work to build trust. Don't overwhelm. Know the signs of past trauma. I do like awkward Randall though.
Anyone else roll their eyes at the brother reveal?
I might be hate watching now. It's borderline.
I did like flashback Kate and Rebecca. It was nice to see them bonding and not having any issues. I also liked flashback Kevin and Randall. I think kid Randall is my favorite character.
 

[tribeca]

I can totally believe Kevin could get painkillers.   He is an actor and people seem to say yes to them.    Also I have a family member who was addicted to pain killers although it was years ago she was pretty good at convincing doctors, dentists and the pharmacist to keep filling those prescriptions.  She even some how got a prescription in my name and when I had my car accident no one would give me a thing for thr pain. 

Kate should have known Toby does everything big LOL.  He’s happy dance was cute just not the water part.  

[willco]

That last scene had me confused. Jack was thinking about his Dad and then he looked at that picture and I thought Wow, he sure looks like his Dad ! But then they zoomed in on the brother and I thought,"What ? How is that possible ?" I now realize the uniform was too late of a style for it to have been the dad's. I think I'm a little slow tonight.