S09.E02: Who's Your Daddy?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Will and Jack try to date younger guys but find it challenging. Grace and Karen experience a crisis that reveals Grace's true feelings about Karen.

[mtlchick]

Karen and Grace stuck in a smart shower?

Jack trying to pick up a young thing with magnets and with bad make up?

Will giving a sermon to his young thing as to what he went through (and a reminder to all as to why this show was important to begin with?)  AND getting pissed off that Blake mocked Madonna?

Now THAT is the Will and Grace I remember. 

[Primetimer]

Jack and Will react very differently to the realization that they are entering their Daddy years.

View the full article

[Amethyst]

So, Will and Jack, huh?

Wonder if Rosario is the new Stan: oft mentioned but never seen.  Guess it's the only way to keep the character around without Shelley actually being present. :(

I loved Will's speech to Blake.  Funny, but brutally honest and heartfelt.

That inane shower scene had me asking questions.  Does Karen even get paid?  I thought Grace only hired her because she wanted access to Karen's wealthy connections. 

Karen conveniently yelling out the words to lock the shower was like watching bad vaudeville.  And were the doors vacuum sealed or something?  I just figured the water would seep through the doors.

Jack was hilarious in his poor flirtation and him trying to date (or hookup), and that end makeup was awful.  Poor Jack.  It will be interesting to see how he navigates among the younger generations now.

[ExplainItAgain]

This episode was so much better! The acting was much more like the original run than last week's episode.

[FormerMod-a1]

I loved all the positions Karen was getting into in the shower.

[TheOtherOne]

"Mine left the apartment screaming like Vera Farmiga in 'The Conjuring.'"

I don't know why that line made me laugh so much, but it did. I legitimately laughed out loud.

Yep, this was much better. I was lukewarm after last week, but now I'm in. Very funny, Will and Grace not being annoying, plus the Designing Women ref. Great stuff.

[Dave in Chicago]

Maybe it's a stretch, but I thought that "Baby June" was maybe a reference to the musical "Gypsy".  It's a weird choice, but still kind of fits - also an aging child star character, still playing the ingenue in later year, etc.  Just less ghoulish.

[legaleagle53]

41 minutes ago, Dave in Chicago said:

Maybe it's a stretch, but I thought that "Baby June" was maybe a reference to the musical "Gypsy".  It's a weird choice, but still kind of fits - also an aging child star character, still playing the ingenue in later year, etc.  Just less ghoulish.

That sounds more like a conflation with Baby Jane of Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?  June (the character in "Gypsy") never wanted to continue playing the ingenue -- Mama Rose just kept forcing her to do it until June had finally had enough.  She actually wanted to grow up and have an independent life of her own.  That's why she eloped at such a young age and basically cut Mama Rose dead in the process.

Baby Jane was the aging child star who insisted on still playing the ingenue (and that was every bit as ghoulish as it sounds -- Bette Davis could really sell the ghoulishness!).

Edited October 6, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

I loved all the positions Karen was getting into in the shower.

I like how she was swimming around a lot more smoothly than Grace was :D. The whole shower thing had me wondering if they were inspired by an old "Lucy Show" episode where Lucy and Vivian tried to put up a shower and got stuck inside it while it was filled with water. Lots of similarities. 

Will and Jack trying to navigate dating younger people was hysterical. I loved that whole storyline. And I liked the discussion of what it meant to be gay now versus back in Will's younger days, and the importance of remembering the past. That was really well handled. 

(And despite all their issues and generation gap, Will and Blake did have a rather cute chemistry.)

1 hour ago, TheOtherOne said:

"Mine left the apartment screaming like Vera Farmiga in 'The Conjuring.'"

I don't know why that line made me laugh so much, but it did. I legitimately laughed out loud.

Yep, this was much better. I was lukewarm after last week, but now I'm in. Very funny, Will and Grace not being annoying, plus the Designing Women ref. Great stuff.

That line made me laugh, too, as did the "Designing Women" thing. And Will and Jack dancing to "Borderline" at the end was adorable. Great episode, classic example of what made this show and the characters so fun. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Annber03

[jcin617]

2 hours ago, Amethyst said:

That inane shower scene had me asking questions.  Does Karen even get paid?  I thought Grace only hired her because she wanted access to Karen's wealthy connections. 

She does get paid; there was an episode (“Polk Defeats Truman”) where Karen cashed all her previously uncashed paychecks at once because Stan put her on a budget.

[Amethyst]

8 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

She does get paid; there was an episode (“Polk Defeats Truman”) where Karen cashed all her previously uncashed paychecks at once because Stan put her on a budget.

Ah, yes I remember that one.  And Grace was livid because Karen basically cleaned out her bank account from dozens of uncashed checks.

I'm surprised Grace was still paying her though.  I figured Karen wasn't cashing the checks, like before.

[Stowaway]

3 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Jack and Will react very differently to the realization that they are entering their Daddy years.

View the full article

The "daddy" thing really is a monumental shift in gay culture. My generation (I'm about Tara's age) was usually painted as shallow because we generally didn't want to date older guys. But the fact was, we came of age in a time when there was a dearth of healthy older gay role models, and a fear climate that told us that seeping with older guys was how you got sick.  It's interesting, and heartening, to see how much has changed. But as someone who would prefer to date a guy who's in his 40s, it's annoying that all the hot ones now have younger boyfriends.

Surely the brain fart about Baby June came not from "Gypsy," but from Honey Boo Boo,

[sheetmoss]

I was kind of waiting for a Dear Evan Hansen or Waving through a Window  joke/line since Ben Platt played Will's date

[Aileen]

I laughed a lot, but somehow this type sitcom just seems dated now to me. It's every bit as good as the original series, but I don't think it feels modern (maybe it's the constantly laughing audience??). Especially when it follows The Good Place, which is so smartly written and original.

[blaase]

I don't mind the audience laughing I watch reruns of old shows mostly anyway since I think the current sitcoms mostly suck.

but they need to cast much better roleplayers the young actors that played Will's and Jack's dates were awful as was the new maid.

Edited October 6, 2017 by blaase

[scrb]

Their timing is good, repartee is good, the physical comedy is alright.

[Miles]

2 hours ago, Aileen said:

I laughed a lot, but somehow this type sitcom just seems dated now to me. It's every bit as good as the original series, but I don't think it feels modern (maybe it's the constantly laughing audience??). Especially when it follows The Good Place, which is so smartly written and original.

Sure this is a different older style than The Good Place, but it still slayed me a lot of times. I really love both shows. It doesn't all have to be the same.

[TheGreenKnight]

6 hours ago, blaase said:

I don't mind the audience laughing I watch reruns of old shows mostly anyway since I think the current sitcoms mostly suck.

I agree, I find it hard to get into comedies these days, which is why I was fine with this getting a revival.

This episode was fun. I thought Sean Hayes looked like John Barrowman during the scene where the lights were clapped on.

[mtlchick]

3 hours ago, Miles said:

I laughed a lot, but somehow this type sitcom just seems dated now to me.

I think it's more that there are not many multi camera comedies left on broadcast TV.  Shows like Modern Family really brought single camera format front and center.  ABC killed off the last two it has last season and I don't think Fox had any in a few years.  It's either this or a few on CBS. 

[festivus]

10 hours ago, Amethyst said:

So, Will and Jack, huh?

Oh man, I hope not.

 

Karen was cracking me up with the way she was swimming in that shower.  Will was really cute with the dancing at the end. I love Eric McCormack. He and Megan have seemed to jump right back into the roles like they never left. Something is off with Jack though. Some of that sparkle is gone I think.

[janie jones]

Why didn't Karen and Grace (1) take off their shoes/extra articles of clothing, if any, and throw them out of the shower; (2) try to get up over the glass once the water was high enough to lift them; and/or (3) scream for help?

[Eureka]

3 hours ago, mtlchick said:

I think it's more that there are not many multi camera comedies left on broadcast TV.  Shows like Modern Family really brought single camera format front and center.  ABC killed off the last two it has last season and I don't think Fox had any in a few years.  It's either this or a few on CBS. 

I read an article about the multi-cam aspect of it. Can you explain this, like what is the advantage of each type? I don't understand why it makes a difference to whether a show is good or not. I liked this episode much more than the premiere.

[txhorns79]

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I laughed a lot, but somehow this type sitcom just seems dated now to me. It's every bit as good as the original series, but I don't think it feels modern (maybe it's the constantly laughing audience??).

At times, it can feel a little grating.  Like with last week, not all the jokes worked, but the laugh track was acting as though it had just watched the most hilarious show ever written. 

[TheOtherOne]

Ratings were lower, as expected and as with most shows after premiere week (though you can bet some parties will blame it on the premiere being too political and mean to Trump)--2.0/7, 7.04 million viewers. It was still NBC's biggest show of the night, and could adjust up like it did last week (went from 2.9/10, 10.04 million in early numbers to 3.0/10, 10.19 million), and that's before the jump in delayed viewing.

http://tvline.com/2017/10/06/scandal-ratings-final-season-7-premiere/

Edited October 6, 2017 by TheOtherOne

[NichD]

Loving the podcast with Tara and Kevin, though I have to disagree on the MVP. Ben Platt was good, but the reveal of Jack in full makeup, serving Alyssa Edwards realness, had me rolling on the floor. I wouldn't be surprised if Sean Hayes was intentionally channeling her Joan Crawford look.

 

 

[saber5055]

I've been watching the reruns and enjoying them, hoping I can get into this new version. But last night's show, while better than the pilot, was still not my cup of tea. I don't even hear the laugh track, so it's not that. Will's full-on lecture about how gay life has progressed made me feel like I was in a college course and we'd all have a pop quiz at the end. And the shower scene was pretty much stolen from an old I Love Lucy, although I can give that a pass I guess. The end with Will and Jack dancing to Madonna was like the old show though, so thank you for ending on a fun high note, show.

[JAYJAY1979]

10 hours ago, Aileen said:

I laughed a lot, but somehow this type sitcom just seems dated now to me. It's every bit as good as the original series, but I don't think it feels modern (maybe it's the constantly laughing audience??). Especially when it follows The Good Place, which is so smartly written and original.

And part of the reason I liked it was because it was a throwback to how sitcoms used to be.  I much prefer the multi cam approach then the single cam approach.  

Compared to the other shows on Thursday, this one is superior.

[Amethyst]

2 hours ago, janie jones said:

Why didn't Karen and Grace (1) take off their shoes/extra articles of clothing, if any, and throw them out of the shower; (2) try to get up over the glass once the water was high enough to lift them; and/or (3) scream for help?

Ikr? Especially #3.  Why was Grace freaking out about drowning when they were basically just floating?

[paigow]

Scrotox!

[wendyg]

Eureka: A single-camera show is shot like a movie, where if you want to get multiple angles on a scene you have to shoot it, move the camera, and shoot it again (hence no laugh track, because you can't really do it in front of a studio audience). Multiple cameras lets you capture different angles at the same time, and they can be (and are) performed in front of a live audience. Each has advantages. A single-camera show can do a lot more with cinematography and locations; a multi-camera show feeds off the audience energy, which can really help actors in a comedy and can be recorded like a live play.

[iMonrey]

This was definitely an improvement over the premier, but it felt sort of like W&G Season 8: tired and out of ideas. The whole gimmick with Grace and Karen trapped in the shower was a straight-up rip-off of an old Lucy Show episode. However, I did get a big kick out of Jack in the spanks, unable to bend or move and getting stuck to all things metal. And the makeup at the end was hilarious too. 

Quote

"Mine left the apartment screaming like Vera Farmiga in 'The Conjuring.'"

I don't know why that line made me laugh so much, but it did. I legitimately laughed out loud.

Yeah that made me laugh out loud too.

Quote

I laughed a lot, but somehow this type sitcom just seems dated now to me. It's every bit as good as the original series, but I don't think it feels modern (maybe it's the constantly laughing audience??). Especially when it follows The Good Place, which is so smartly written and original.

It's funny you bring this up because I think audiences today (especially the younger ones) are so used to single-camera sitcoms that are not filmed in front of a live audience that three-cam sitcoms with a studio audience seem outdated and quaint. I've made several posts lately trying to explain these shows do not have a "laugh track" and I'm not even sure if younger viewers understand what a laugh track is. I'm getting the impression they think the live audience in the studio laughing is called "the laugh track" but that's not what a laugh track is. A laugh track is "canned laughter" - audience reaction from some other live show that's added to the broadcast in post-production. They used to do that with sitcoms in the 50s and 60s. They don't really do that  anymore, except for maybe something on Nickelodeon. 

But I keep reading  over and over again "oh, the laugh track is annoying." There's no laugh track. It's real people, there in the audience while they're filming.

Interesting subject considering this episode dealt with a generation gap and what one is used to vs. the other.

[uoflfan]

Karen and Grace stuck in a smart shower?

Jack trying to pick up a young thing with magnets and with bad make up?

Will giving a sermon to his young thing as to what he went through (and a reminder to all as to why this show was important to begin with?)  AND getting pissed off that Blake mocked Madonna?

Now THAT is the Will and Grace I remember. 

For me, Sean and Megan stole this episode with their physical comedy. They've always been my MVPs.

[useryikes]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

The whole gimmick with Grace and Karen trapped in the shower was a straight-up rip-off of an old Lucy Show episode.

That's what I thought, too.  It went on a bit too long.  Overall, I'm sort of lukewarm about this show.  I hope it improves because I liked the old one.

[mmecorday]

Next week: Grace and Karen get jobs at a chocolate factory.

But I tell you, I do love the idea of a gay bar that plays episodes of "Designing Women" for its patrons.

Edited October 6, 2017 by mmecorday
spelling

[TheOtherOne]

A more generous interpretation would be that the shower scene was an homage, not a ripoff. Potato, potahto?

Then again, this is the show that did an entire episode ripping off Friends' "they don't know we know they know" plot, not to mention the storyline of "The Object of My Affection," so a Lucy ripoff would be exactly like the old Will & Grace, which seems like what a lot of people have been asking for, no?

Edited October 8, 2017 by TheOtherOne

[TheOtherOne]

.

Edited October 6, 2017 by TheOtherOne

[TheOtherOne]

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Edited October 6, 2017 by TheOtherOne
Triple post. I don't know why.

[Bruinsfan]

The core premise of the whole series is basically The Object of My Affection.

 

15 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Ah, yes I remember that one.  And Grace was livid because Karen basically cleaned out her bank account from dozens of uncashed checks.

I'm surprised Grace was still paying her though.  I figured Karen wasn't cashing the checks, like before.

If Grace bothered to balance her books it wouldn't have been a problem, or the problem would have revealed itself ages before and she'd have either set up a direct deposit of Karen's paycheck or just stopped paying her entirely.

[thejuicer]

Big improvement from the pilot but still hasn't hit its stride. I thought there was too much physical comedy.

[WhosThatGirl]

This episode felt more like vintage Will and Grace to me. Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t have THAT much of a problem with last weeks episode, it was political but I feel like they wanted to make a point and they did.

[Dandesun]

I had a childhood fantasy of filling the shower up with water like a pool. Usually at my maternal grandmother's house where the tiled alcove was shut off by the door. Such dreams I had... and Grace and Karen lived that dream last night!

And yes, early Madonna is the shit. I was a mere 12 year old who had no idea what 'Like A Virgin' was about so innocent and sheltered was I. That being said, 'Borderline' was my gateway drug into Madonna. And it just played on my playlist so that makes me extra happy.

Sean Hayes got to do a lot of physical comedy in this episode which was delightful but, I have to be honest, I thought Karen's Cabinet of Age-Defying Derring Do would have been a lot bigger.

[SparklesBitch]

20 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I loved all the positions Karen was getting into in the shower.

Me too! That may have been my favorite part of the whole episode. It was just so perfectly Karen. 

Also, Grace doing a useless little doggie paddle while they're basically just floating without being in any real danger cracked me up. 

18 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Will and Jack trying to navigate dating younger people was hysterical. I loved that whole storyline. And I liked the discussion of what it meant to be gay now versus back in Will's younger days, and the importance of remembering the past. That was really well handled. 

[...]

And Will and Jack dancing to "Borderline" at the end was adorable. Great episode, classic example of what made this show and the characters so fun. 

Agreed! Poor Jack's reaction to being called a "daddy" and Will's face when Blake said he was born in '94 were both just great. 

I really loved Will's whole speech....timely and accurate and so well done. 

Will and Jack dancing at the end made me so happy and nostalgic! Like you said, it's classic W&G. Also, with how zingy and sharp Will and Jack can be with each other sometimes, it's nice to have scenes like them dancing together and their conversation about finding someone to share a history with, with whom you have a "shorthand" is great to remind the audience why they're even still friends to begin with. Their "shorthand" that they have together is very sweet, but I really, really hope they never date.....which is what that conversation sounded like it was hinting on. 

17 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Ah, yes I remember that one.  And Grace was livid because Karen basically cleaned out her bank account from dozens of uncashed checks.

I'm surprised Grace was still paying her though.  I figured Karen wasn't cashing the checks, like before.

Yes! I thought that the whole point was that Grace was technically paying her, but they agreed that Karen would never cash the checks as long as she wasn't doing any actual work. 

[eXiled]

Debra Messing is trying so hard. So very, very, very hard.

[txhorns79]

Quote

But I keep reading  over and over again "oh, the laugh track is annoying." There's no laugh track. It's real people, there in the audience while they're filming.

I just figured it was a combination of the two.  I've read about shows that film in front of a live audience while supplementing scenes with a laugh track where the joke didn't necessarily get the reaction they wanted from the audience. 

I will admit that I did crack up at the idea of a young Grace at summer camp being called "Gross" Adler. 

And how old are the characters actually supposed to be?  They are hitting 50 or older, right?  Weren't Will and Grace in college in the mid 1980s? 

Edited October 7, 2017 by txhorns79

[SmithW6079]

11 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Will's full-on lecture about how gay life has progressed made me feel like I was in a college course and we'd all have a pop quiz at the end. 

That was the best scene in the episode. Young gays like Will's date don't understand what it was like then, of the struggles to be accepted, let alone be considered equal. This was the episode to be political. Not cheap shots at DJT, but the very real attacks on the civil rights of homosexuals and transgender people that's happening now.

Will's lecture reminded me of the song "Life Story," from Maltby & Shire's "Closer Than Ever," where a woman sings of the battles she faced in the 1960s, striving for women's rights, especially this:

Quote

 

And those sweet young things who hire me now 

Those MBAs making fifty thou

Who smile and ask what I have done

When they got their jobs from the fights I won

 

 

[SparklesBitch]

16 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

That was the best scene in the episode. Young gays like Will's date don't understand what it was like then, of the struggles to be accepted, let alone be considered equal. This was the episode to be political. Not cheap shots at DJT, but the very real attacks on the civil rights of homosexuals and transgender people that's happening now.

Well said! Granted, I'm only about a decade older than Will and Jack's dates, but I've spent a lot of time listening to older members of the LGBTQ community and that made Will's speech even more poignant. Us younger LGBTQ folks can't take the strides that have been made for us for granted. Like you said, our rights are still being threatened and it's our turn to fight. 

For all of those reasons, I'm not the least bit ashamed to admit that Will made me tear up when he was speaking about it all so passionately. I know it's just a sitcom, and Eric McCormack isn't even gay, but I thought they they nailed it anyway, and as a member of the community, I'm grateful that they included him speaking like that. I think that there's probably people out there who watch this show (now or in the past) who may not even be that keen on the LGBTQ rights movement, or very informed about how we're being threatened right now, or who even care that much.....but if TV can be used to help those people care or inspire them to learn or be informed in real life....well, I'm grateful that this show is there to help that to happen. 

Will & Grace, creating allies since 1998! 

[WhosThatGirl]

I mean.. I liked everything with Wills storyline because it is an interesting role for Will to play now.  And yes that speech was good. Will didn’t get two coming out parties and we now live in a world where there’s probably at least one gay character on a tv series. Will and Grace in 98 was extraordinary for having lead gay characters and it being a successful sitcom. And yes that’s making things meta.

The 20 something kid was kind of annoying because yes.. why wasn’t he all about injustice that’s still happening today? I guess he was supposed to be one of those “everything is working out for me singular and I can’t really change the injustices enough to care” 20 something’s who don’t care about anything anymore. But I don’t know, it bugged. I’m a couple years older than that character and hia attitude just bugged me.

[film noire]

7 hours ago, Dandesun said:

 I thought Karen's Cabinet of Age-Defying Derring Do would have been a lot bigger.

YES.

It wasn't even as big as her closet (which entranced Jack back in the day). Behind the medicine chest, we should have seen an echoing, high tech space  ("Karen, it looks like the People of Walmart website in there -- but all the men are walking around with their pants open and their penises out -- OMG!! OMG!!"  "Jackie no! Look away! We're perfecting Baby Dick!") 

9 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

A more generous interpretation would be that the shower scene was an homage, not a ripoff. 

I seem to remember that Messing's nickname on the W & G set was "Jewcy" -- (to rhyme with Lucy) -- so yeah, homage would make sense. 

Edited October 7, 2017 by film noire

[MaggieG]

I enjoyed Will and Jack's storyline more than Grace and Karen. Jack having trouble walking and then doing kind of a side flop into the couch made me laugh. Will coming out with the pruning shears and them getting stuck to Jack's crotch. The Vera Farmiga line made me laugh as well, as did Will's line about Madonna's body looking like Iggy Pop