S21.E12: The Final Rose/S21.E13: After the Final Rose

[1992austenlover]

4 minutes ago, violetr said:

 Nick - women can be strong, sassy and confident without being totally controlling. In fact, we're out there in spades, Nick! 

I think Nick knows that as proven by the fact that he had a strong connection with Rachel and Raven. I just think that he connected more with Vanessa on an emotional level because of how similar they are as people. 

[darockwilder]

I thought Nick's dad looked like either Harvey Keitel or a psycho murderer on 'Criminal Minds'.  It will be interesting to see Raven on BIP, that was the only place I actually liked Nick.  Way less fake weird smiles there.

[Snickerdoodle]

11 hours ago, seasick said:

Nick:  "If I'm able to get engaged and get to that point,  I definitely want it to feel like a love I've never had before.  

Vanessa:   "Are you ready to propose?"   (in other words--is your mind made up? do you feel 'that love'? for me--hopefully? ?)  

 Nick:  "Well the week's not over yet. " 

Okay--at that point I would have been OUT!!   OUT!  You say you want to propose to someone you're madly in love with but --not feelin' it yet???  The.  week's. not.  over.  yet???  What..? two more days left to choose one and fall "madly in love"?   

This is doomed.  Any woman--and especially the the very 'special and superior" Vanessa---would want to feel as though he had fallen hopelessly in love and was just playing out the rest of the show.  She wants to  feel their relationship is "special and different"  --and he has flat out told her it is not. She is one of two women left and the jury is still out.   Sooo... On 'Tuesday' you don't know...but on 'Thursday' you're going to be in love like never before and proposing.  Yeah okay.  

And of course all his neurosis about having to guard his feelings because of his damaged goods status.  Talk about someone who is "emotionally unavailable".    How long is he going to carry Andi and Kaitlyn's skeletons around?   

He doesn't love her and she resents the hell out of him   I'd be surprised if they ever see each other again after the NYC tour.

Maybe Nick is a fan of The Cure. ( "Friday I'm in Love")

[Superpole2000]

I should have known this season was all going to be a giant waste of time. I'm so disappointed in myself for thinking Nick wanted anything more than just another TV job.

My favourite part of this episode was Chris Harrison's reassuring words to Vanessa as she entered the final rose/engagement room:

• Vanessa: "I'm so nervous!"
• Chris: "You should be."

[Nowhere]

All they talked about is their struggles and arguments. They used the word 'tough' about a million times each. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the first few months of a relationship are the best. You're in love, willing to do just about anything, excited about the future. Nick and Vanessa act like this is a major chore and I've never seen another couple act like that. His facial expressions looked almost angry at times but definitely sad. I wish I could read micro-expressions but something about this is stressful and very forced.

The last guy out to meet Rachel was great! I loved him. Great first impression in my opinion. 

[RHJunkie]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

and if it doesn't work out she gets the ring, right?  Not bad for 6 to 12 months out of your life. 

I've always wondered that but Chris Soules confirmed that if the engaged couple break up, the winner has to give the ring back - I'm guessing she gives it back to the show and not the guys since these Bachelors surely aren't the ones paying for those rocks!

Also, I didn't watch Rachel's part of the segment. Isn't it a bit unfair that some of the guys would get to meet her before others? It either puts them at an advantage or disadvantage. They can make a great impression that Rachel can hold on to for months and build anticipation for wanting to see them and get to know them better...or they can crumble under the pressure of having to deliver one line to impress. A normal introduction and a follow-up conversation later on seems a lot more reasonable and less like they're trying too hard. OR maybe in an effort to plug good ratings, they want to have a more visual understanding of what Rachel would like or dislike and that was kind of a bit of a vetting process so they know the ratio of kind of guys to cast for the remaining ones.

Edited March 14, 2017 by RHJunkie

[slowpoked]

16 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:

I've always wondered that but Chris Soules confirmed that if the engaged couple break up, the winner has to give the ring back - I'm guessing she gives it back to the show and not the guys since these Bachelors surely aren't the ones paying for those rocks!

From what I heard during the times of Brad 2.0, it's either a 2-year engagement or wedding that will let you keep the ring.

[Kbilly]

Quote

I was waiting for Neil Lane to say, "So Nick, the usual? And slide the ring box to him."

So funny.

For as much as Nick waxes on about how hurt he was by Andi, Kaitlyn et. al. I thought it was kind of a dick move to lay it on soooo thick with Raven. He actually said "I can't wait to show you off!" to the girl he knew he was going to dump the next day. And for someone who was so intent on breakin' the rules and doing things his own way, why couldn't he slip Vanessa--who was freaking the eff out---some kind of reassurance that she was the one? You don't tell a girl like that "The week's not over yet, babe!" You give her a little whisper, nudge or even what the hell, say "I love you"--Brad did with Emily.

I can't overstate how much I loved "I'll miss you" "I know"--I just wish Hoxie Han Solo would've walked right out the door after she said it.

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

Isn't it a bit unfair that some of the guys would get to meet her before others? It either puts them at an advantage or disadvantage. They can make a great impression that Rachel can hold on to for months and build anticipation for wanting to see them and get to know them better...or they can crumble under the pressure of having to deliver one line to impress

Except they start filming The Bachelorette today or tomorrow or sometime soon.

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, dleighg said:

I guess I'm thinking of when it should have been final three on Ben's season but Calia was aufed early, and the other two were expecting her to be there. (is that at least correct?)  And I think maybe something similar happened with JoJo? So I just remember two people standing there waiting for the lead.

Yes. That has also happened a few times. Either the -or/-ette didn't want to put the third-place finisher through that and let them go in a private conversation pre-RC, or a few times the finalist realized they were too close to the finish and feared they might get picked and decided to bail on their own--Brooks (Des's season), Frank (Allie's season), and Andi (Jaun Pablos's season), for example.

[Rubyslippahz]

52 minutes ago, Superpole2000 said:

I should have known this season was all going to be a giant waste of time. I'm so disappointed in myself for thinking Nick wanted anything more than just another TV job.

My favourite part of this episode was Chris Harrison's reassuring words to Vanessa as she entered the final rose/engagement room:

• Vanessa: "I'm so nervous!"
• Chris: "You should be."

YES seriously what the hell was that?  Way to be reassuring Chris.  Although at that point they were portraying Vanessa as knowing she had it in the bag, and Nick as the one who had to worry about her accepting the proposal, so maybe Chris knew she'd laugh it off.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

7 hours ago, waving feather said:

And Nick seriously has BAD taste in women, personality wise. Andi, Kaitlyn and Vanessa? Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Apparently to him, "strong" means argumentative.

I thought Nick seemed really light and fun with Kaitlyn.  I do not remember them arguing. I think they were very into each other physically and had a lot of fun together.  That's what I remember, personally.  I don't relate their relationship to Nick and Vanessa's.

[OldWiseOne]

14 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

As for the producers , I saw an interview with chris Harrison a couple of years ago and they asked if there will ever be a black bachelor/Ette and he actually said no because it would change the whole dynamic of the show . So my guess is the network pushed it 

Do you have a link to this interview? I don't think Chris Harrison has ever said anything remotely like that about having a black lead. He did say something to that effect about the possibility of having a gay lead (as there would be a chance the contestants could partner up among themselves and leave the lead out in the cold - go to keep those contestants desperate for the one and only!).

 

 

22 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Yes. That has also happened a few times. Either the -or/-ette didn't want to put the third-place finisher through that and let them go in a private conversation pre-RC, or a few times the finalist realized they were too close to the finish and feared they might get picked and decided to bail on their own--Brooks (Des's season), Frank (Allie's season), and Andi (Jaun Pablos's season), for example.

Andi didn't bail on Juan Pablo - he dumped her and she came back the next day to rip him a new one.

[slowpoked]

10 minutes ago, OldWiseOne said:

Do you have a link to this interview? I don't think Chris Harrison has ever said anything remotely like that about having a black lead. He did say something to that effect about the possibility of having a gay lead (as there would be a chance the contestants could partner up among themselves and leave the lead out in the cold - go to keep those contestants desperate for the one and only!).

The only other time Chris was also asked about the optics of the show is regarding, um, heavier people. He said matter-of-factly that it's not just a good show to watch if you have unattractive people flirting and making out.

11 minutes ago, OldWiseOne said:

Andi didn't bail on Juan Pablo - he dumped her and she came back the next day to rip him a new one.

No. Andi dumped him. The day after their fantasy suite, JP kept on talking about how they had such a great time together, etc. while Andi said it was their worst time together and that she hopes JP didn't think it was a good date. Andi went to meet JP the day after to tell him adios. That's where JP's infamous sequence of "Eees ok, eees ok..." came from.

[Jax7917]

20 minutes ago, OldWiseOne said:

Do you have a link to this interview? I don't think Chris Harrison has ever said anything remotely like that about having a black lead. He did say something to that effect about the possibility of having a gay lead (as there would be a chance the contestants could partner up among themselves and leave the lead out in the cold - go to keep those contestants desperate for the one and only!).

 

He was on the show The Real I believe when he said that . I haven't just heard him say it once I've heard it a couple of times . But no I don't have a link . 

[hoosiermom]

After reading some of the comments here, I decided not to waste 3 hours of my life watching this final show. Wasted too much time watching the season already. I am old and need to spend my time more wisely. Like reading and posting in forums! Lol

[sasha206]

Vanessa has to be the most phony of the contestants I've seen.  Please honey you never watched an entire season?  

Edited March 14, 2017 by sasha206

[RHJunkie]

1 hour ago, TheFinalRose said:

Except they start filming The Bachelorette today or tomorrow or sometime soon.

They literally advertised casting for the Bachelorette during last night's episode of the Bachelor and Live AFR show. Could have just been an error on their part but I assumed that they were still casting and vetting for Rachel's season given that they were still promoting casting and that Rachel was only officially cast less than a month ago and she was promoting casting. Maybe they've already recruited a number of Bachelors outside of the last couple of months of advertising...or maybe I'm just underestimating how quickly the vetting process is for casting.

[GracieK]

8 hours ago, RHJunkie said:

I didn't see Kimmel but I wasn't so bothered by the AFR ceremony. I can't take people seriously when they say it was the most awkward AFR they've seen when Jason Mesnick still exists and chose to dump his F1 to get back together with F2 during his AFR. If THAT isn't the pinnacle of awkward on this show, then I don't know what is. I wasn't bothered by the AFR. It seemed real, the questions were all focused on the challenges and that was the intent from the get go so naturally the conversation was focused on that. The chose to highlight that aspect of their relationshpi all season long, so I was completely expecting that that would be the theme of conversation tonight. Why should we feel awkward about someone else being honest about the challenges of a long distance, cross-country relationship where you barely get to see each other, you have to hide your relationship from everyone and have to spend several months holding on to memories from an 8 week relationship where you had to share that guy with other women? Just because the Bachelor bubble is so odd from the real world experiences of dating doesn't mean that the challenges and experiences of real world dating can't apply once the fairy tale vacation has ended. I see a lot of challenges to their relationship and the distance isn't one of them (I also thought Nick's reference was to proper immigration). Vanessa poses the biggest challenge to her own relationship - she really did do herself a disservice by not watching a season in its entirety and understanding the role of the lead throughout the process. The process can make a woman feel needy but she'll find it hard to find a healthy relationship if she's constantly looking for re-assurance in her relationships. It's good to challenge someone, but not at all cost. I also think that Vanessa will fight at all costs to make the relationship work because of how seriously she has taken this process. Not sure if Nick reciprocates...especially if he keeps finding opportunities to keep his face in the spotlight. Best of luck to them, like all Bachelor couples, I always feel they need it. It's not the break ups that surprise me, it's the one relationships that actually last - the show is the easy part.

If there is serious friction right now, I doubt they pull the plug at any point while he's still competing on DWTS.

I think the Mesnick situation is in a class entirely on it's own.  I said it was the most awkward ATFR I've ever seen, and the comparison is to other couples who have sat in the hot seat attempting to convince the world of their engaged bliss.  Their body language, answers, facial expressions and overall demeanors exuded that of a couple that is actively arguing and unhappy with each other and simply putting on a good face for the world.

Edited March 14, 2017 by GracieK

[slowpoked]

17 minutes ago, GracieK said:

I think the Mesnick situation is in a class entirely on it's own.  I said it was the most awkward ATFR I've ever seen, and the comparison is to other couples who have sat in the hot seat attempting to convince the world of their engaged bliss.  Their body language, answers, facial expressions and overall attitudes exuded that of a couple that is actively arguing and unhappy with each other and simply putting on a good face for the world.

Yeah, I think that's it. While JoJo and Jordan overcompensated last season on their AFTR (because of the bad press with his brother and ex-gf), Nick and Vanessa totally went the other way. It actually reminded me of the AFTR of Brad and Emily.

EDIT: Apparently, Emily herself thought of the same thing:

Edited March 14, 2017 by slowpoked

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Bachelor Puts The Season On Ice

And by that, we mean...hooray, he finally chose a (potential) wife!

[GracieK]

1 minute ago, slowpoked said:

Yeah, I think that's it. While JoJo and Jordan overcompensated last season on their AFTR (because of the bad press with his brother and ex-gf), Nick and Vanessa totally went the other way. It actually reminded me of the AFTR of Brad and Emily.

I think it seems painfully obvious that Vanessa was not equipped to handle the format of the show and especially the airing and editing of it afterwards.  I'm willing to bet that Nick dreaded the phone call after every Monday night that was an inevitable fight.  

[alannaofdoom]

15 hours ago, Rubyslippahz said:

Am I nuts or did Chris H say something at the start of ATFR about asking Raven about the fantasy suite, but he never actually did ask her anything about it?

If you're nuts then so am I - on the other hand I was only paying about 40% attention through most of the episode. So who really knows. 

4 hours ago, Boofish said:

That idiot in the smedium baby gap suit should have been escorted off the planet IMMEDIATELY. 

You are SAVAGE and I love it! 

[walnutqueen]

33 minutes ago, hoosiermom said:

After reading some of the comments here, I decided not to waste 3 hours of my life watching this final show. Wasted too much time watching the season already. I am old and need to spend my time more wisely. Like reading and posting in forums! Lol

I ff'd through all those hours in a hot minute, because any time I bothered to try watching, Nick was trying to squeeze out a tear or an intelligible syllable.

[KenyaJ]

3 hours ago, DEL901 said:

And I always hate when couples talk about distance stopping them from spending time together.  They could find a way... if they wanted.  My exhibit A is always Ashley and JP.  They used to have dinner together almost every night.  They Skyped, ate and talked in front of their computers so when they could finally see each other in public, the relationship was well advanced from what it was at the end of the show.  They actually got to know each other.

Aw, Ashley and JP are my faves. For all the Bentley foolishness early on, I think that was one of the only seasons where the producers got out of the way and let us watch two people fall in love with a minimum of interpersonal drama. Her ATFR was one of only two where I came away convinced that the lead was going to marry the person they chose, for all the reasons you mentioned. (The other one was Sean, FWIW.)

1 hour ago, TheFinalRose said:

Except they start filming The Bachelorette today or tomorrow or sometime soon.

Yeah, I read that filming starts in the next couple of days. I imagine Rachel will have lots to keep her occupied for the next few days, so I can't imagine she will have much time to reflect on the guys she met last night. I doubt any of them will be advantaged or disadvantaged - except for Dean. I'm sure he made an indelible impression. 

[Superpole2000]

35 minutes ago, GracieK said:

I think it seems painfully obvious that Vanessa was not equipped to handle the format of the show and especially the airing and editing of it afterwards.  I'm willing to bet that Nick dreaded the phone call after every Monday night that was an inevitable fight.  

Do you think she had her family in the room on speaker/videophone for those calls? I could totally see her doing that.

Vanessa's reluctance to accept the ridiculousness of the format of this show is one of the best things about her. Of course, she signed up for it, so it really is her own fault. Her objection to Nick's faux-waffling over Vanessa vs. Raven seemed so logical, but then she went ahead and accepted the ring anyway. If she truly felt it was ridiculous then she should have turned his ass down. And THAT would have been the best ending possible. Nick...rejected on his own season!

[PetuniaP]

2 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

He was on the show The Real I believe when he said that . I haven't just heard him say it once I've heard it a couple of times . But no I don't have a link . 

 

 

 

 

I would need to see the receipts on this. I found this clip of Chris Harrison on The Real - http://thereal.com/videos/0-g3yrycph/ but with no mention of the race of potential future leads of the show. In fact, everything I have read about what Chris has had to say about a black lead of the show is that it's "above his pay grade" and that it's not something you can force because the show's seasonal leads are determined by their placement in previous seasons and that the "heart wants what it wants". Meaning that unless a contestant of color made it far enough, there was nothing the show could do.

Now, one can argue that they asked Nick to play along to get them to this point with Rachel and I don't think I'd disagree. But do have a hard time believing that Chris Harrison would have publically stated that this show would never have a black lead. If anything, a statement like that would have been prominently featured in the racial discrimination lawsuit that was filed against ABC and Warner Horizon Television in 2012. Regarding that suit, which was dismissed, Warner Horizon Television issued a statement stating that they "have had various participants of color throughout the series' history, and the producers have been consistently -- and publicly -- vocal about seeking diverse candidates for both programs. As always, we continue to seek out participants of color for both 'The Bachelor' and 'The Bachelorette.'"

Edited March 14, 2017 by PetuniaP

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

Vanessa has to be the most phony contestants I've seen.  Please honey you never watched an entire season?  

I remember her asking Nick on their first date about why he was doing the show again.  So I was initially confused by this as well.  But I don't remember if Nick brought up his past Bachelorette stints, or if she did.  So I suppose it's possible that she didn't watch.  Yeah...not really buying it, either. 

2 hours ago, Kbilly said:

I can't overstate how much I loved "I'll miss you" "I know"--I just wish Hoxie Han Solo would've walked right out the door after she said it.

LMAO! 

I half-watched it last night, but caught it on Hulu this afternoon so I could skip around.  And Nick's utter refusal to reassure Vanessa was hysterical to me.  For all of the crying he does, he was weirdly smiling at Vanessa when she started crying, and wiping her tears and telling her not to cry.  I guess that was his way of comforting her, but you'd think someone so sensitive might be a sympathy crier.  Not this guy.  It was so bizarre. 

2 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

My favourite part of this episode was Chris Harrison's reassuring words to Vanessa as she entered the final rose/engagement room:

• Vanessa: "I'm so nervous!"
• Chris: "You should be."

I usually skip right past Chris and his absurdity, but this was another hilarious moment.  I suspected last week that Chris wasn't too keen on Vanessa based on his response to the F3 arriving for the rose ceremony.  His response to her nervousness confirmed it. I guess I've just never paid much attention to how he interacts with the women. I caught it this time. 

[limecoke]

Oh my.  I wanted to like Vanessa throughout but she's, well, difficult it seems.  Let's see...she's born and raised in Canada,  huge, close-knit family, job she loves.  Yeah, moving to LA is really going to work out.  Awkward ATFR for sure and Nick looked miserable.  Oh, this is not going to end well.  

Poor Rachel and poor guys for having to introduce themselves in that painfully awkward way.  Shudders at the "Going black" comment.  Not good.  

[slowpoked]

Nick and Vanessa seem to be doing better in other medium other than the AFTR. They were better in Kimmel, and here is their short People video where they look much more relaxed:

http://people.com/tv/bachelor-nick-viall-finale-exclusive-blog-vanessa-grimaldi-engagement-raven-gates-breakup/

Of course Nick lets everyone know they've been doing, um, fiance type stuff.

[Guest]

I'm of the unpopular opinion that likes Vanessa. It was nice to see someone who was real and asked the serious questions. She didn't just think about it being a fairytale, she genuinely wanted to know if this would work.

[ByTor]

I believe it's been mentioned that Vanessa lived in Toronto and/or Vancouver, but now she's saying that "down to 5th cousins" nobody in her family has moved from Montreal.  I wonder which is the truth?

Nick had his usual enlightening talk with Raven.  N:  Did you have fun? R: Yeah!  N: What was your favorite part?  It's almost like he's talking to someone Bella's age...and I didn't notice him having that exchange with anybody else.

I watch this on ABC.com & last I checked AtFR still isn't available to view.  I guess it doesn't matter, though, the way it's been described it sounds like I didn't miss much.

[dleighg]

3 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I watch this on ABC.com & last I checked AtFR still isn't available to view.  I guess it doesn't matter, though, the way it's been described it sounds like I didn't miss much.

I started watching it this afternoon (wasn't available until a couple of hours ago): http://abc.go.com/shows/the-bachelor/episode-guide/season-21/13-after-the-final-rose

[peachmangosteen]

12 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

Nick and Vanessa seem to be doing better in other medium other than the AFTR. They were better in Kimmel, and here is their short People video where they look much more relaxed:

Since both of these were filmed before ATFR I'm thinking maybe something happened shortly before ATFR that created a fight that hadn't been resolved by the time ATFR started.

[Former Nun]

17 hours ago, JenMcSnark said:

She is just one high-maintenance, controlling, "Nick we need to have a talk", downer girlfriend.

I saw it just another way (well, "heard" it...I was sick in bed).  Sounds to me like she has seen Nick's antics/history on his too many television appearances.  Someone is finally making him answer tough questions--not just speak in romantic platitudes.

10 hours ago, b2H said:

go off into their own worlds, rarely to be heard from again.

If only we were so lucky.  I'm no fan of the Chris Harrison franchises...but I'm sure others see Nick on television as often as Chris can get him there.  Who Wants to be a Millionaire,  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Viall?

Edited March 14, 2017 by Former Nun

[ByTor]

7 minutes ago, dleighg said:

I started watching it this afternoon (wasn't available until a couple of hours ago): http://abc.go.com/shows/the-bachelor/episode-guide/season-21/13-after-the-final-rose

I see that it's available, thanks!

[ljenkins782]

19 hours ago, annewithaneee said:

I'm genuinely surprised at how little I care for Nick, Vanessa, and Raven. I mean, I generally don't care for the Bachelor(ette) or either of their final two, because the nature of this show and its 'journeys' and wasting a lot of beautiful scenery and generic adult contemporary/country musicians on a bunch of maddeningly bland personalities spouting word-salad platitudes -- but I was genuinely cheering for a Finnish avalanche to win the finale. 

I don't think Vanessa is too good for Nick. There's something about her that gets under my skin, that feels deeply inauthentic. In that way, I feel like they're a terrific match; together she and Nick can strive for middling success on the ABC/Disney family in whatever capacity they can. She just feels like that particular breed of modern reality TV character who's a little too savvy, like she came onto the show with a defined gameplay and brand in mind, and at times found the necessary mechanics of the show far beneath her. Like she self-produced, but the show let her get away with it. Fair play to her, I guess, but I hope they fade into obscurity quickly. I'm sure they have Marriage Bootcamps and Freeform spinoffs and all kinds of other sad little stars in their eyes though.

I kind of enjoyed the beginning of this season, but it crawled to an excruciating end and I can't even believe I sat through those last 3 hours. I was so bored and to me, it didn't seem like Nick or Vanessa could muster up much enthusiasm for pretending that they're happy now. They had that distinct "waiting out the contract" vibe. 

Vanessa really does seem like a drag. All of the little faces she was making when sticky subjects arose seemed to indicate that she's not getting over any of the show stuff anytime soon. Also, she came off incredibly defensive, I don't think she's going to be able to let the judgments of social media roll off her back. 

Chris Harrison also didn't seem to care too much for Vanessa. Some of his statements seemed just shy of calling her a bitch. I wonder if she was difficult to production. 

[violet and green]

18 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

To be fair, based on whatever nerves she was feeling, I could see her not even noticing the coat. Also, based on Nick's LCD with them, it looked like they were in separate hotels so Vanessa wouldn't know what Raven was wearing. My guess is they never saw each other. 

I saw her clock the coat and a quick expression of glee came over her face, and then she bounded inside confidently to get her ring. Ack!

The producers, the editors, Chris, even the hairstylists don't like her! I swear I have never seen anyone's hair look so bad in the final episode - both in visiting the parents, where it looked as if it had been crushed in the back by a beanie and not brushed out, or else 'mussed' with too much of that Mudd product they used to have back in the day. And then during the proposal scene it had the same look, as if it was really greasy and she'd got up out of a sweaty bed and just seen to the front, which had come out rather flyaway. Anyway, horrible!

I had a face like a gorgon on during that proposal and acceptance. Lucky a magic mirror did not appear in front of me.

The best part was Finland in the snow and the fun date with Raven - what a dick he is, to not know by age 36 to pick the woman he has fun with. But now he's doing this dancing show I wonder if that funny skating sequence of daggy dance moves was actually part of his audition reel...

I give that 'relationship' a few weeks once the cameras and lights are off her when his gig on DWS is up. Bet she hangs onto the ring, too. What are they going to do, fly up to Montreal and rip it off her finger with an entire mega-family gathered around mopping her quivering lips?

Boy, did she flip off her special needs students in that AFR, too. Oh, she's got her charity now.

Edited March 14, 2017 by violet and green
typo plus sweary

[seasick]

6 hours ago, JenE4 said:

O'Connell. Jerry O'Connell's brother. I thought the girl he picked was very cute and that she could have done better than him. The drinking problem was apparent on his season. I still recall group dates with doing body shots off of the various contestants' bellies. IMO, that was the trashiest season ever because he didn't project the expected behavior/stature of The Bachelor.

Thanks!  I would say for that time frame--when the girls generally still acted like little miss america's-- his season appeared more raucous  than usual.  But I remember him as being really very enthusiastic about the whole show--as opposed to Nick's heavy,  tired attitude.  

However- as far as trash --NOTHING has surpassed the sex education kiddie smut they did on Kaitlyn's season.  And her "red  petal fever (somethin' about) my beaver" wasn't the class moment.  Oh --and the Sumo outfits--where all their junk (just happened) to hang out.  That one gets my vote for trash.

[seasick]

1 hour ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

And Nick's utter refusal to reassure Vanessa was hysterical to me.  For all of the crying he does, he was weirdly smiling at Vanessa when she started crying, and wiping her tears and telling her not to cry.  I guess that was his way of comforting her, but you'd think someone so sensitive might be a sympathy crier.  Not this guy.  It was so bizarre.

Glad you brought this up.  I'm no Vanessa fan but Nick did totally refuse to reassure Vanessa and he was very dismissive of her feelings, cutting her off and chattering about himself and his own feelings.   In fact I think he went overboard in making her feel  as 'un-special' as he could and he did seem to get some pleasure out of it.  (I quoted the remark "the week's not over yet" to which I think I would have stood right up and walked.)  I'm sure she's kicking herself now for not doing so.

And I think he's still refusing to validate any of her feelings--which is why she said on ATFR in so many words -that he's still all about him and not her feelings.   He's a  passive-aggressive jerk.  I think this is a case of "hurt people Hurt people."   He finally has the upper hand and he's using it like a fist.  He doesn't love her--he's just using her for his redemption from total loser.  

[Zahdii]

Regarding the ring, the last I heard the couple doesn't get to keep the ring unless their marriage lasts at least two years.  I'm not sure how things worked out in the early years of the show, but ever since Shayne Lamas broke up with Matt Grant after two whole months of being engaged back in 2008, and then refused to return the ring, new rules went into effect.

As far as I know, the couple doesn't even get the real ring once the final show has been shot.  The ring that appears on camera is real, but then it is returned to production once the cameras are packed up and the couple gets a realistic fake for everyday wear.  Any time they do a scheduled appearance for the show after that, the real ring is brought out, but when the appearance is over they leave with the fake ring.  If the couple actually gets married, they are given the real ring on their second wedding anniversary.

[huahaha]

2 minutes ago, Zahdii said:

If the couple actually gets married, they are given the real ring on their second wedding anniversary.

Wait, seriously? Where did you read that?

If true, that's so crappy. The show already gives the relationships an air of unreality. Then the major token of affection and commitment is swapped out for a fake? That's fitting, maybe, but also turns an important symbol hollow. I don't know why anything about this show still surprises me.

[waving feather]

Yeah, and it doesn't help that Nick has NO poker face whatsoever. He broadcasts whatever discomfort he has in any situation. That's why I could always tell when he's going to dump a girl on the show. Vanessa was more successful at putting up a good front but Nick was a big fail. I mean, they are probably OK afterwards but they really looked like they just finished an argument on AFTR.

[GracieK]

6 minutes ago, waving feather said:

Yeah, and it doesn't help that Nick has NO poker face whatsoever. He broadcasts whatever discomfort he has in any situation. That's why I could always tell when he's going to dump a girl on the show. Vanessa was more successful at putting up a good front but Nick was a big fail. I mean, they are probably OK afterwards but they really looked like they just finished an argument on AFTR.

So much this!  Probably of the "why were you still kissing on Raven moments before proposing to me" variety lol.

[JudyObscure]

47 minutes ago, Zahdii said:

Regarding the ring, the last I heard the couple doesn't get to keep the ring unless their marriage lasts at least two years.  I'm not sure how things worked out in the early years of the show, but ever since Shayne Lamas broke up with Matt Grant after two whole months of being engaged back in 2008, and then refused to return the ring, new rules went into effect.

As far as I know, the couple doesn't even get the real ring once the final show has been shot.  The ring that appears on camera is real, but then it is returned to production once the cameras are packed up and the couple gets a realistic fake for everyday wear.  Any time they do a scheduled appearance for the show after that, the real ring is brought out, but when the appearance is over they leave with the fake ring.  If the couple actually gets married, they are given the real ring on their second wedding anniversary.

Well then, the fake must be pretty good and that's the one all my friends would have seen, so I think I would put all my sentimental feelings on that one and sell the real one the minute I got it and use the money for a great second anniversary present.  Two years into marriage, things like a down payment on a house because a baby is coming probably mean more to many women than a bit of bling. 

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

I kind of enjoyed the beginning of this season, but it crawled to an excruciating end and I can't even believe I sat through those last 3 hours. I was so bored and to me, it didn't seem like Nick or Vanessa could muster up much enthusiasm for pretending that they're happy now. They had that distinct "waiting out the contract" vibe. 

 

You summed it up perfectly. I did like that Nick was the Bachelor and I thought his season would turn out ok. Not perfect, but ok enough to watch till the end. The first few episodes was fun. Nick and Vanessa had an awesome first date. But this season just dragged. I don't know if that's the producers' choppy editing (not ending the episodes on a rose ceremony), or that they just really have nothing to work on, but this season has been a huge disappointment. I had high hopes for Nick, since he's been around the block 4 times and would know what it's like to give a good show. But no, this turned out to be one of the more mediocre seasons.

[hyacinth]

Quote

 ... this season has been a huge disappointment. I had high hopes for Nick, since he's been around the block 4 times and would know what it's like to give a good show. But no, this turned out to be one of the more mediocre seasons.

I kept waiting for Nick to entertain me.   And then last night - finally! - he did.  

He wore a ski cap with no hair showing except for a carefully chosen inch or two of curly bangs RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS FOREHEAD, as if he thought it looked hot.  (It was not.)  

Edited March 15, 2017 by hyacinth

[violet and green]

I was expecting that he'd propose out in the snow. That cabin set-up made it even more anticlimactic. I did love the snow scenes, and in all the finale promos Nick is pacing pensively in his dark suit through a snowy field and looking better than usual, so I was all ready for the drama and the romance and the zillion sparkles of love hearts to go off in the beautiful white snow, too bad about their freezing cold wet feet, etc.

Instead, left behind black cloak. Now that cloak would've looked great against the white snow.

[yorklee2]

15 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Is her hair really that black or does she dye it to match her name? 

I think it's dyed. Her natural color is probably a darker toned brunette but that shade was a bit too much for her.  I hope she gets a really good hairstylist who will tone it down and cut it back.

13 hours ago, Rainsong said:

With all due respect to those who had Raven pegged as the winner, it was clear from Nick’s reactions throughout and the futile red-herring edits that conveyed Vanessa as a weepy fence-sitter that she was walking to victory, such as it is.  I didn’t check spoilers this season and would have been disappointed in myself if I did, so obvious was the result. 

I was spoiled before the season even started and still I think it was obvious early on that Vanessa was the one. As a viewer I think she presented well initially in both looks and personality but that went down gradually with each episode. I think there was maybe a small percentage (obviously unspoiled) who thought Raven might win but they were in the minority. Or at least on this forum. I don't do a lot of social media. But as you said for the ones who were unspoiled it still should have been obvious. It was hard at the end not to inadvertently spill the beans. So much that I had to catch myself and remember to say, "if she wins".

11 hours ago, slowpoked said:

Oh, and Raven? You are my new hero:

Nick: I will miss you.

Raven: I know. 

Complete with DRY EYES! High-five girl!!!

Looking back this is pretty funny but at the time my initial thought was, "she's having a hard time processing this, it hasn't sunk it yet". Then on ATFR she pretty much confirmed it. I think the, "I know" was in a weird way her still being in the friend/girlfriend mode and understanding it was hard for him. And sort of like a nervous admission. When you giggle at the worst possible time and didn't mean to. Like I said not processing it. She did come across stoic but in the limo as it was starting to sink in more I did see what looked like a genuine tear slide down her face. All season she tried to be accommodating and go with the flow/live in the moment but in the show "bubble love" way in the end I think she was starting to think it might actually happen.

But it's all good. For her sake it worked out just like it was supposed to.

Edited March 15, 2017 by yorklee2

[slowpoked]

10 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

Looking back this is pretty funny but at the time my initial thought was, "she's having a hard time processing this, it hasn't sunk it yet". Then on ATFR she pretty much confirmed it. I think the, "I know" was in a weird way her still being in the friend/girlfriend mode and understanding it was hard for him. Kind of like a nervous admission. When you giggle at the worst possible time and didn't mean to. Like I said not processing it. She did come across stoic but in the limo as it was starting to sink in more I did see what looked like a genuine tear slide down her face. All season she tried to be accommodating and go with the flow/live in the moment but in the show "bubble love" way in the end I think she was starting to think it might actually happen.

 

The reason I was skeptical about Raven's "broken heart" was because it seemed like the producer drove them for hours and hours until she finally broke down. And even when she was getting her spiel about recovering from a broken heart, it was all in general terms. She didn't reference Nick specifically. About how it hurt that Nick didn't choose her. So that's why it felt like her broken heart speech was manipulated out of her, and not something that she genuinely felt at that momeny. But yes, maybe it did take awhile to process, and so her reaction was like that.