S01.E02: The Other Woman

[Joimiaroxeu]

Susan finally decided to take on a bit of Bette's accent. Not bad.

I think Hedda Hopper's outfits are glorious. I've seen several portrayals of her in movies and this is the first time I've seen her in clothes I would've loved to have worn.

This show is going to win all the awards. It's unfortunate though that Jessica and Susan will likely be competing in the same category. It sounds like Jessica's previous stuff  on AHS may work against her since many people seem to be seeing her Joan portrayal as derivative. (And, in a different lane, Susan's  political stances may work against her.)

[Neurochick]

20 hours ago, ThatsDarling said:

BD's verbal annihilation of her mother was upsetting to watch, but consistent with the behavior of the real BD. Her assertion that "men don't look at you anymore" was a bit difficult to believe when uttered to the very attractive Susan Sarandon, as was Joan Crawford's comment about Davis looking old enough to be her mother. Years of heavy drinking and smoking had taken their toll on Davis's physical appearance by the early 1960s, but Sarandon is too well-maintained for those comments to make sense.

Even though it did seem strange saying that to Sarandon, who looks at least a decade younger than her actual age, I felt for Bette; as women we're judged by our looks more than men, and actresses are judged more than us "regular" women, because their faces are their careers.  I hated when Bette kissed the director and I hated that he kissed her back.  That final scene, the shot of the face of the director's wife was heartbreaking.  She knew exactly what happened.

[enoughcats]

9 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

 That final scene, the shot of the face of the director's wife was heartbreaking.  She knew exactly what happened.

I went on "the director's" real life wiki page and he had two wives; I think that WEHTBJ came out two years before his divorce from his first wife (or should that be her divorce from him....it didn't specify).  His second marriage was to a model.  I might interpret that as being a marriage in the business who knew what to expect from the get go.

[AuntiePam]

11 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I hated when Bette kissed the director and I hated that he kissed her back.  That final scene, the shot of the face of the director's wife was heartbreaking.  She knew exactly what happened.

I'm not a fan of adultery either, but I liked the scene.  It was such a contrast from Joan's attempt to seduce Aldrich.  Joan played it like a B-movie temptress, but Bette was warm and sympathetic with Bob, and their attraction felt natural.

Another good line:  "She lives like a Yankee!"

[AgentRXS]

Count me in as someone having trouble seeing Jessica Lange as Joan Crawford. It might be my own fault, since I'm currently binge-watching AHS and may just be on JL overload. My opinion of her is that she is technically a good actress, as she you can tell that she really tries to submerse herself into her roles. However, sometimes the execution just doesn't work for me.  In Feud, she is hitting all the big moments just right, but overall she just isn't selling Joan Crawford to me.

Sarandon, even though she's had some weak moments, is selling me on her betrayal of Bette Davis, moreso in this last episode than the first, I'll admit. 

Kiernan Shipka was all January Jones/Betty Draper in her scenes with Sarandon. She's got JJ's deadpan ice-queen delivery down pat.

Everything about this show-the outfits, the cars, the homes-is  visually stunning.  I'm living for the clothes and cars especially.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Susan finally decided to take on a bit of Bette's accent. Not bad.

Here's what's strange: in that ending scene between Davis and Aldrich at Davis's house I was finally hearing Sarandon do Davis's distinct voice and accent. It's like she decided to give it a go in this one scene - maybe it was the first scene they filmed? And then she gave up on it later. It's the first time I really thought she was trying to do Davis's voice. 

I get that it's a tough line to straddle - she doesn't want to camp it up and do a hokey impression. But that one scene seems to show that she can do it, but she hasn't been doing it consistently.  And now I'm kind of losing a little respect for her acting ability. 

RE: Lange -

Quote

 In Feud, she is hitting all the big moments just right, but overall she just isn't selling Joan Crawford to me.

Agreed. It's like she's doing a different version of Crawford. But I think Lange has a little more leeway, because Crawford didn't necessarily have a really unique, easily recognizable speaking voice - not the way Bette Davis had. It's easier to "interpret" Crawford than Davis if you have the right look. It's also possible Lange is trying to stay as far away from Faye Dunaway's interpretation in Mommie Dearest (which was frankly spot-on) as possible. 

Sarandon just doesn't have the same luxury. You have to talk like Davis, or you're not Davis. That's really all there is to it.

[Neurochick]

I am so glad I started watching this.  Thank God for "on demand."  I like seeing Catherine Zeta-Jones in this as well.  I have always liked her, because to me, she came/comes off as a woman, not a girl as too many actresses come off these days.  Sometimes I feel she was born in the wrong era, today movies are made for teenagers, it's all about youth.  No one wants to see movies about adults.  Moonlight might have won Best Picture, but the top grossing movies last year, were either animated, science fiction or superhero.

[hkit]

15 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

Kiernan Shipka was all January Jones/Betty Draper in her scenes with Sarandon. She's got JJ's deadpan ice-queen delivery down pat.

And didn't Kiernan once say she idolized Grace Kelly? She really looks like the daughter of someone who looks like Grace Kelly. I'm having a hard time separating her from her Mad Men role!

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I like seeing Catherine Zeta-Jones in this as well.  I have always liked her, because to me, she came/comes off as a woman, not a girl as too many actresses come off these days.  

I love CZJ, and realized we haven't seen much of her lately. When I checked her filmography, it was surprising how few films she's been in. I think it's to her testament that she is so memorable in the films she did do 15+ years ago. I also am loving her in this. I don't care what the context is, but I'd be OK with a whole show of just her and Kathy Bates, doing whatever they do. Love them both.

[psychoticstate]

16 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree.  A number of actresses passed, and the story itself is somewhat eye rolling.  A mother sacrifices everything (including almost her freedom) for the biggest spoiled brat of all time!   

I think that's true.  Jessica Lange is made up to look like Joan Crawford, while Susan Sarandon just looks like herself. 

Sadly, with today's entitled and enabled society, it seems this happens more and more often.  At least where a parent makes excuses for their child's terrible behavior. 

12 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

Seem to recall the director Curtiz wanted  Stanwyck for the mother, after Davis reportedly turned it down  by some accounts.

OTOH, Kathy Bate's persona /delivery seems  to evoke the spunky Joan Blondell.

Michael Curtiz was dead set against Crawford in the role.  She actually auditioned for the role of Mildred, which a star of her caliber simply did not DO.  And she auditioned with other actors, she wanted the part so badly.  Curtiz eventually came around when he saw how dedicated to her craft she was. 

I may stand alone on this but while I generally love Kathy Bates, I'm not super impressed here.  Maybe Joan Blondell was very close to Bates herself but I'm just not feeling it.  At least not yet.   I feel like I'm just watching Kathy Bates be Kathy Bates. 

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I like Susan's performance and the comments about how old she looks seems crazy, because the actress is still very attractive.  There is no way she could think she looks like Lange's mother.

I do think the Joan Crawford "look" is not flattering to Lange.  Crawford was a stunning dark haired brunette with pretty almond shaped eyes.  Lange's eyes are too small and beady.

Also, Lange's voice does not seem right.  Crawford had a very dignified precise way of speaking to hide her impoverished background and lack of training.  Lange's voice just sounds like a shaky old lady.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Even though it did seem strange saying that to Sarandon, who looks at least a decade younger than her actual age, I felt for Bette; as women we're judged by our looks more than men, and actresses are judged more than us "regular" women, because their faces are their careers.  I hated when Bette kissed the director and I hated that he kissed her back.  That final scene, the shot of the face of the director's wife was heartbreaking.  She knew exactly what happened.

No one believed for a moment that Bette could pass for Joan's mother.  It was a passive aggressive strike, nothing more.  I do think that @Neurochick hit on it though - - women were (and are often) judged by appearances.  Sadly, not a lot has changed today.  In Bette and Joan's era, women were often pitted against each other - - career-wise, looks-wise, even with men.  "Feud" is showing that and showing how Jack Warner, Bob Aldrich and even Hedda Hopper nurtured that competition, all for the almighty dollar regardless of whether it may have destroyed one or both ladies.  

On the other side of the coin, both Bette and Joan had affairs with married men, not giving a flip how that action may have hurt the other woman.  (Yes, the man was definitely just as responsible but women should look out for each other.)   Just a small bit of trivia but after one of her affairs ended, Joan called the director's wife to say she was sending him back home.  The wife, God bless her, said "Thank you, Joan."  Can you imagine?

Regarding Crawford's appearance and speaking voice and Lange's portrayal, @Growsonwalls posted a video clip of a BBC interview with Joan sometime in the 60s, I would think.  Her speaking voice is loud and clear.  This was in part due to MGM's training when "talkies" were coming into vogue.  They wanted all their actors to have strong voices without regional type accents.  

Also, Joan was a natural redhead with freckles.  Who would know?  

[ennui]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

You have to talk like Davis, or you're not Davis. That's really all there is to it.

Bette was a smoker and had a smoker's voice. There's no way Sarandon can mimic that (at least, I don't think she smokes).

[Maccagirl]

Odd question - but couldn't think of a better place to ask!  My colleague has DirecTV and has seen both episodes 1 +2.  I have DISH TV and have only seen episode 1 so far.  My guide shows episode 2 will air on March 19th, instead of March 12th as it should have aired.  I set my DVR to tape ALL episodes, not just new ones, just in case the episode "info" was incorrect.  I have approx. 12 recordings of episode 1, none of episode 2.  Has anyone else with DISH as their provider seen episode 2 yet?  Thanks for helping me to try and solve this mystery.

[GaT]

20 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think that's speculation. Bette actually wasn't known for sleeping around that much. She had a major affair with director William Wyler and she married several times but she always claimed that she didn't enjoy sex and thought it was "God's joke." 

I think one thing this series does capture is that Joan was very much into being the "star" wherever she went. She needed Mamacita to travel with her to the set every day just to prove she had a maid at all times. 

This is an excellent interview with her where she talks at some length about what she deems necessary to maintain this star status.

Absolutely fascinating listening to them talk about how magazines are publishing things about their private lives & how angry the world is.

[Growsonwalls]

I also love Joan's steel magnolias Southern belle personality which shines through in the interview despite the generalized accent. You could so imagine her saying "bless your heart." 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Feud: Bette And Joan Proves A United Front Can't Last Long In Old Hollywood

All along, they coulda been friends...if the Hollywood system hadn't conspired to make them hate each other.

[Inquisitionist]

6 hours ago, Neurochick said:

No one wants to see movies about adults.  Moonlight might have won Best Picture, but the top grossing movies last year, were either animated, science fiction or superhero.

A bit OT, but Hidden Figures was none of those and it has done very well at the box office.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I feel like I'm just watching Kathy Bates be Kathy Bates. 

I have the same reaction to her, and I think it's for the same reason I have trouble seeing Jessica Lange as Crawford: American Horror Story Burnout.

Quote

Bette was a smoker and had a smoker's voice. There's no way Sarandon can mimic that 

That's just the thing though . . . Sarandon can imitate Bette's iconic accent and clipped manner of speaking, as evidenced by the last scene between her and Bob Aldrich in this episode. I just don't understand why she did it here and hasn't really attempted to do it in any previous scenes. It's odd. There have been moments when I thought she almost managed to capture the essence of Davis but not quite but in this one scene she did a spot-on impression of her. I don't get it - she has been very inconsistent in her portrayal. 

[tennisgurl]

Kiernan Shipka has apparently been weirdly type casted as the snarky teenaged 60s daughter of a woman named Bette. Weird. Shes really good at it though, and she looks amazing in her period clothes, so I'm alright with it.

Still really loving the show. I cant say I know a whole lot about the real life feud, But I have always loved Bette David, and liked Joan Crawford, and I am loving seeing this all play out. I'm a sucker for old school Hollywood, so I'm totally ready for this. Plus, its only 8 episodes, but hopefully we can put off Ryan Murphey totally ruining the show during the second half, which just turns into total insanity and whatever issues Murphey is dealing with at the moment.

The whole "play actresses against each other for better performances" reminds me of a story (not sure if its true) I heard that the director of Black Swan tried to create a rivalry between Mila Kunis and Natalie Portman to make their on screen relationship more compelling, but they figured out what he was up to immediately, and got along just fine. Of course they didn't already have baggage like Joan and Bette did, so it was probably easier here.

The poor directors wife. I did actually like the scene with Bette and the director, as much as I disapprove of cheating. There was a real warmth and connection there, that would probably horrify Joan even more than just sleeping with him like he tried to do.

[benteen]

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 10:54 AM, txhorns79 said:

I don't know.  The concepts of a mother competing with her daughter over men, and an older woman refusing to vacate the stage despite being well past her prime aren't new.  I haven't read B.D.'s book about her mother, but my understanding is Bette comes off pretty horribly, or at least badly enough for Bette to completely disinherit her and her entire family.  

I'm not defending Bette or BD.  I'm sure neither of them were saints in that relationship.  But to me, the scene came across as too meta, too on-the-nose, too 21st century to me.  I thought it was the worst written scene in the first two episodes and it took me out of the show for a moment.

Edited March 15, 2017 by benteen

[caracas1914]

While I get Susan Sarandon not wanting to just do a Bette Davis impersonation, still you can get the voice and mannerisms down AND still get a hell of a performance with the essence of the persona. Meryl Streep as Margaret Thatcher.   The two actors who portrayed Truman Capote  in recent bios come to mind, especially Philip Seymour Hoffman(who was nothing like Capote);look at Michelle Williams evoke Marilyn Monroe and Natalie Portman gets down Jackie Kennedy's very difficult breathy little girls voice. None of those performances are "just" impersonations.

Susan Sarandon even had a bit of an advantage in that physically she evokes a bit of Bette, especially with her own distinctive eyes: So Sarandon still strikes me as being a bit lazy in not attempting to sound more like Bette, or more to the point, drifting in and out of sounding like Bette.  It wouldn't have automatically have made it a drag performance.   You just have to look at the more relaxed Bette Davis interviews and she still has that distinct voice, even if a bit less clipped and pronounced than in some of her roles.

Edited March 15, 2017 by caracas1914

[voiceover]

On 3/14/2017 at 7:40 AM, benteen said:

If there was one scene that took me out of the show for a moment, it was BD's rant against Bette.  It sounded way too meta and 21st century to me.  It's like something a person in the future would say about a person in the past that they had read about.  Wish fulfillment perhaps from the person writing it?  Something tells me if that particular moment actually happened, it wouldn't have sounded like that.

Eh, I dunno.  They actually made a movie about that monologue, and Crawford won the Oscar for it.

[Milburn Stone]

I can't remember who wrote it, but after seeing two episodes, I agree with it: By trying to find the tale in the manipulation of these two actresses by the big bad male Hollywood power structure, Feud is denying these two great actresses agency in their own story. I want to believe that Crawford and Davis were life forces, I want to see their clash as a clash of the titans. I don't want to see them as victims of Jack Warner, or the way the male power structure disposes of actresses of more than a certain age. I want to see them kick ass. Ironically, in trying to be "woke" about women, the show diminishes them.

As it is, the show's OK, but the only performance that's bringing me actual pleasure is Jackie Hoffman's.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[ChiCricket]

On 3/14/2017 at 2:17 PM, Maccagirl said:

Odd question - but couldn't think of a better place to ask!  My colleague has DirecTV and has seen both episodes 1 +2.  I have DISH TV and have only seen episode 1 so far.  My guide shows episode 2 will air on March 19th, instead of March 12th as it should have aired.  I set my DVR to tape ALL episodes, not just new ones, just in case the episode "info" was incorrect.  I have approx. 12 recordings of episode 1, none of episode 2.  Has anyone else with DISH as their provider seen episode 2 yet?  Thanks for helping me to try and solve this mystery.

I have DISH.  just watched episode 2 tonight, but I'm not sure when it recorded. Unfortunately I already deleted it, so I can't check when it was on.

But it's already on Dish On Demand, if that helps. :)

[sugarbaker design]

12 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I don't want to see them as victims of Jack Warner,

But they were, Milburn Stone! They were victims of Jack Warner!  :)

[Maccagirl]

14 hours ago, ChiCricket said:

I have DISH.  just watched episode 2 tonight, but I'm not sure when it recorded. Unfortunately I already deleted it, so I can't check when it was on.

But it's already on Dish On Demand, if that helps. :)

Hi Chicricket: Thanks so much!  That is so odd.  I didn't even think about Dish on Demand - thanks for mentioning that. 

[BingeyKohan]

On 3/14/2017 at 0:39 PM, iMonrey said:

Here's what's strange: in that ending scene between Davis and Aldrich at Davis's house I was finally hearing Sarandon do Davis's distinct voice and accent. It's like she decided to give it a go in this one scene - maybe it was the first scene they filmed? And then she gave up on it later. It's the first time I really thought she was trying to do Davis's voice. 

I get that it's a tough line to straddle - she doesn't want to camp it up and do a hokey impression. But that one scene seems to show that she can do it, but she hasn't been doing it consistently.

You're right - it was an oddly isolated incident, her pulling out the spot-on intonation. We haven't seen Sarandon-as-Davis-as-a-Davis-movie-character all that much. I wonder if Sarandon's (or Ryan Murphy's) idea was that Davis only used that voice in character and spoke more subtly in her private life. Perhaps she felt she was performing in some way for Aldrich hence the theatrical voice, even in an off-camera moment. 

[bmoore4026]

Doesn't look like this has been asked yet, so I'm might as well: How much money today is equal to two-million dollars in 1962 money?

[theatremouse]

16 millionish.

[bmoore4026]

Just now, theatremouse said:

16 millionish.

God, no wonder Joan need the film.

[Mindthinkr]

On 3/14/2017 at 2:29 PM, ennui said:

Bette was a smoker and had a smoker's voice. There's no way Sarandon can mimic that (at least, I don't think she smokes).

Susan Sarandon does smoke. She went on WWHL and told a funny story how she and Kathy Bates were on Figure Eight Island (N.C.) and smoked a joint. I wonder now that they are working together again that they aren't having some off set fun! 

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Mindthinkr said:

She went on WWHL and told a funny story how she and Kathy Bates were on Figure Eight Island (N.C.) and smoked a joint.

I remember that!  KB said SS always had the best weed!

[Unclejosh]

Smoking a joint does not equal smoking cigarettes. It does not do the same damage to your vocal chords.

[Growsonwalls]

Susan Sarandon used to smoke. She credits quitting smoking with improving her looks. It always surprises me how many Hollywood stars go on these macrobiotic vegan gluten free organic diets and then smoke like a chimney. It's like dude, have a cheeseburger and drop the Marlboros. 

One thing Im finding lacking in Sarandon's portrayal (even though this week was better) is inner life. She;s spitting out the lines with force and projects the same kind of strong personality of Davis but it seems a surface portrayal. Meanwhile Lange I think is better at suggesting the masks beneath the mask. 

[Cupcake04]

I do not know anything about the real life feud.. What struck me most about this episode is what a horrible, horrible woman Crawford was! Is it the way Lange is portraying her or was she really that awful? 

I love love love love all the clothes and decor in this show. I covet the lemon yellow Caddy JC was driving!

Edited March 18, 2017 by Cupcake04

[Cementhead]

Stanley Tucci is an awesome actor; so much so that his portrayal of George Harvey; Susie Salmon's killer in The Lovely Bones (an otherwise mediocre movie) has ruined me for watching him play anyone else because he nailed that horrifying character so damn well that he just scares the living shit out of me now.   Seriously. 

Kudos to the actress playing the wife in that last scene when she softly and quietly starts to weep.  That was a heartbreaking scene and it was acted beautifully.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Cementhead

[ennui]

On 3/17/2017 at 3:38 PM, Growsonwalls said:

 It always surprises me how many Hollywood stars go on these macrobiotic vegan gluten free organic diets and then smoke like a chimney.

They smoke to keep their weight down, I believe. The women especially.

[Blakeston]

On 3/18/2017 at 10:28 AM, Cupcake04 said:

I do not know anything about the real life feud.. What struck me most about this episode is what a horrible, horrible woman Crawford was! Is it the way Lange is portraying her or was she really that awful? 

This is actually one of the most sympathetic portraits of Crawford out there (at least, ever since Mommie Dearest was published).

I'm sure Christina embellished Joan's flaws, and frankly, the book doesn't make Christina come across very well either. But I'm not prepared to brush off Christina's accounts, either. The fact that Christopher also maintains that Joan was abusive says a lot.

I don't think Joan was a monstrous person overall. But it's pretty easy for me to believe that when Christina and Christopher were young, she became full-on abusive when she was drinking.

[hippielamb]

Really enjoyed this. It's a good show to watch with a drink or two. ;) I have to laugh at the overly dramatic way these people are. Like the gossip columnist referring to her mortal enemy. Ha! If someone talked like that nowadays I'd roll my eyes at their drama.

I like both actresses or characters (however you wish to describe them). Last week, I was more sympathetic to Joan. She showed an insecurity and need for acceptance that made me feel for her. This week Bette stole the show with her vulnerability. That fight with her daughter was brutal. Sending her away for flirting was an overreaction but the venom her daughter spewed at Bette was horrible. I can't imagine either one of my girls talking to me that way. I have to remember that we are viewing this from a modern perspective and some of their actions and way of talking seems over the top by comparison. 

I fell in a wiki hole reading the backstory of these actresses and about the film. Entertaining and it makes me excited for where this show will lead. 

[Losemynumber]

Mamacita: "Cupcake time" ? 

I'm definitely stealing that one. 

[Arcey]

I just watched this ep tonight. Can someone explain to me what happens in the last scene when Bob comes home and his wife is "asleep"? He slips into bed, the alarm clock goes off (still in the middle of the night?), and he gets back out of bed. I think I may know, but not sure. Thanks in advance.

[Cherpumple]

I think it meant that his "quick check" on Bette turned into an all night absence from his home, so by the time he returned, it was morning and time to get up and start the new day. His wife's expression showed that she knew exactly what he was doing for all those hours.

[smartymarty]

I found that odd too. If it was 2 minutes until morning, why did he slip back into bed at all?

[ghoulina]

Maybe he wasn't sure what time it was? Or maybe he, stupidly, thought he could quietly slip in and his wife wouldn't notice. Then when the alarm went off, she'd think he'd been there much longer?

[Arcey]

Quote

 

10 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Maybe he wasn't sure what time it was? Or maybe he, stupidly, thought he could quietly slip in and his wife wouldn't notice. Then when the alarm went off, she'd think he'd been there much longer?

 

Yes, I think this makes the most sense. I was thinking it was still the middle of the night when he got home, but it was probably closer to early morning, right before the time he would normally wake up. His wife was up the whole time, knowing exactly what was up. I felt so bad for her -- she seemed like a wise, good person, giving her husband good advice about not spreading false rumors about his stars, because it ends up hurting so much, even if it's just a rumor. Bob tried to do the right thing, but caved and sold his soul in the end. Poor fool.

[aradia22]

The DVR didn't record episode 2 but I finally figured out I could watch it online. Not as pretty of course but what can you do?

I just watched a Joan Crawford movie which dims my admiration for Lange's performance. I do get what she's going for but I think there could be even more... coolness... even more of a polish. I think right now it's more "ladylike" where it needs to be "movie star." That's the kind of polish Joan Crawford really had. That practiced assurance. And maybe Lange is also a little more "theatre" than film to me, at least in this episode.

I kind of liked Joan and Bette coming together to get that other actress canned but for their own reasons. Joan for vanity. Bette for artistic integrity. 

I really like the Lotte Reineger + 1960's spy movie cut out opening sequence style but I'm not sure I like the specific images. Maybe it'll grow on me as the story unfolds. I do like the scenes from Baby Jane like the rat and the telephone.

The scene from the shooting of Above Suspicion was nonsense. I get if they wanted to make a joke about the plots from movies at that time but it seemed highly unrealistic and unprofessional to have Joan do that scene. I also wasn't crazy about the scene where the blond actress asked for an autograph for her grandma and Louis B. Mayer told her to start walking. If they're drawing the story out to a whole series they shouldn't have to take shortcuts and employ all these cliches. 

I get that it's another actress' perspective but Joan Crawford did not become a star by playing "slatterns and shopgirls." 

I've seen The Little Foxes and Mildred Pierce recently enough that those short clips felt like caricatures to me. 

It was nice to see Joan and Bette getting along for a moment when the director was about to play them off each other. 

You can just see how much fun Tucci is having being such a scumbag.

I feel like the show is all about big bad Jack Warner and the director's moral dilemma. And I wish it would go more into how a woman like Hedda profits from exploiting and perpetuating societal misogyny. 

I wasn't impressed with how easily Joan and Bette were set off by that article. Maybe the peace was tenuous but the writing of it just felt very high school. Like, even on Glee, someone would have seen past it to start questioning the source of the fight in the first place. But Joan's feelings were hurt and Bette just kept piling on until it didn't matter that she hadn't given that interview. 

Oh, lord. I don't know why I'm surprised that this is the perspective of the female psyche that comes from having a bunch of dudes in charge but oof. That's all I'll say about the insistence that catfighting is a natural state of being.

Quote

Also: "What's your name, sweetheart?" "Sylvia." "Fuck off, Sylvia."

Amazing. I feel like Vanessa Bayer would have played that role if it were bigger. 

I'm really not sure I buy the whole Bette Davis, brilliant serious artiste of an actress thing. I get it. They want to simplify the situation. But this is too simple. Bette Davis made plenty of stinkers. And she phoned it in sometimes. And let's be honest, Warner's right about one thing. Baby Jane is pretty hammy. 

I did think the clip from Baby Jane that they were watching in the screening room looked great. Perhaps they just put more effort into recreating those scenes than the other clips of their movies but then I don't think having those other clips is always necessary.

Well, I'll give her one thing. Sarandon's singing voice nowadays is certainly as good as Davis' was. ;)

As much of a dame as Bette was in episode 1, it was weird that she seemed to immediately be so "aware" of the director touching her. No offense to Molina, but it's not like he's such a stud. I know she was probably feeling vulnerable but that seemed like a big leap. They're actors. They're used to be touched impersonally or for the job.

I feel like the Joan Crawford film persona is less manipulative that this character they're writing. This is more like typical soap stuff. Like Nashville, All My Children, Glee, and probably Melrose Place and Beverly Hills 90210 and references Ryan Murphy would get. I don't think the characters have to be perfect people but I want them to act in more interesting ways than this cliched, juvenile, high school BS scheming. 

So... Peter's a doctor? OK, then. Well, I guess it doesn't matter now.

The scene of Joan cozying up to Hedda was much more interesting as far as machinations go.

The Victor Buono introduction was incredibly random.

The fight with B.D. came out of nowhere. Up until then Kiernan was just putting on cute outfits and walking around. I did appreciate that some of Bette's own vanity came out and we dropped the Great Artiste thing for a second. Even if it wasn't well established, it was still a pretty devastating scene. 

I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about the director cheating on his wife. To bring up another FX show, they almost made it a bit like Matthew Rhys on The Americans. Like, am I supposed to think it was just selfish or was he doing it for the good of the movie?

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The show probably took a little liberty there, in order to play up the feud. 

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I always see Ryan Murphy vehicles have older women extremely catty and nasty to younger women.  I understand Hollywood is a nasty place that mercilessly pits women against each other for their youth and beauty, but I feel it was overdone.  I  mean all younger women know that they will get older and it is not always the cat fight Muprhy loves to portray. 

I think this is my struggle. When it gets to the point where I feel like the characters are becoming a mouthpiece for the POV's of the creators or at least little dolls for them to play around with. It's one thing on a soap opera (though still problematic) but when you're dealing with real people and trying to realistically portray a period of time...

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If there was one scene that took me out of the show for a moment, it was BD's rant against Bette.  It sounded way too meta and 21st century to me.  It's like something a person in the future would say about a person in the past that they had read about.  Wish fulfillment perhaps from the person writing it?  Something tells me if that particular moment actually happened, it wouldn't have sounded like that.

I don't know.  The concepts of a mother competing with her daughter over men, and an older woman refusing to vacate the stage despite being well past her prime aren't new.  I haven't read B.D.'s book about her mother, but my understanding is Bette comes off pretty horribly, or at least badly enough for Bette to completely disinherit her and her entire family.  

It could have come out of Mildred Pierce, details aside.

[DisneyBoy]

After being so completely unimpressed with the first episode I have to say I've adjusted a little bit and really enjoyed episode 2. I still think the tone of it is a bit too on the nose though. That whole monologue from Bette's daughter did not feel real to me at all and there are plenty of other instances where I feel like dialogue is lifted from famous quotes from books or things other people said or stories that have become legendary... and you can almost always tell that it's a quote from something else. Just a couple of those go a very long way and I feel like in every second or third scene we got some reference to something that Bette and Joan historians can pat themselves on the back for already knowing. It's grating.

That said I think this episode worked a lot better and I was able to sympathize with and enjoy the performances of all of the leads much more. We got some wonderful flashbacks to lay out how the women developed their animosity towards one another. I suppose the show is going to jump around a bit and slowly reveal these details over each episode. If I had known that would be the approach I might have enjoyed the Pilot a lot more.

The guy playing Victor Buono is awesome and completely has me sold. I'm still not feeling like Sarandon is disappearing into the Davis character but I hope to see that change. Lange is certainly doing great work as Crawford and no, I haven't seen American Horror Story so maybe thats why I'm enjoying her so much.

I'm still not loving Judy Davis or Catherine Zeta-Jones so I hope we don't see too much more of them.

I'm not sure I can fathom how much cheating Aldridge did on his wife with his various leading ladies over the course of his career. I know Hollywood works that way, but how much can you really get away with before someone leaves you? I love that last scene where I felt like those questions were racing through his wife's mind. It was weird to end the episode with them, though.

So no, it's not perfect but this was a vast improvement and I think I'm actually going to be able to enjoy the show now. Seriously, I was so disappointed in the Pilot I wasn't sure if I'd continue.

Maybe I just appreciate someone acknowledging all of the ham in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane.

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Mamacita: "Cupcake time" ? 

I'm definitely stealing that one. 

 

I heard "cocktail time".

Edited April 22, 2017 by DisneyBoy

[ElectricBoogaloo]

This show is so fun to watch. I love all the costumes and sets, and stuff like "Fuck off, Sylvia!" are the icing on the cake.

Watching Joan manipulate Bette and then Hedda to do her bidding was classic.

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One of my favorite lines of the night:
Crawford: You're so lucky your acting career never took off, Hedda. So fortunate you never became a star...

This line cracked me up because I remember a girl I knew in college who said almost exactly the same passive aggressive shit to someone else in front of me. She wasn't nearly as good at the emotional manipulation as Joan Crawford though!

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Some of the rest of it, though -- the sexism, the ageism -- still feels laid on with a trowel.  I wish they'd stop bleating to the audience, "See what cavemen they all were then!!"  

Sadly with all the things that have been made public in the last few months, we know that there are still plenty of powerful men who are cavemen in this day and age. Harvey Weinstein is the current face of Hollywood Sucks but there are so many other men who abuse their power, sexually harass/abuse their underlings, etc.