S01.E10: Last Christmas

[DoubleUTeeEff]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I know that this is definitely a problem in television and it's going to take a lot to overcome this mentality. I love when I see women have agency, so I totally get it. Weirdly enough, I actually enjoyed the Toby going to fight for Kate aspect. He loves her just as much as she loves him. I think Toby showing up to try to get Kate was just hope that she would take him back. He had no idea if she even would. He risked it, took a chance, and hoped for the best. She could have turned him away and she was well within her right to. But I think Toby recognized that he had to put his own effort in because Kate would always have issues with her weight. I know that the show was trying to portray the scene as romantic, as the guy comes to fight for the girl. I guess I fell for it? I think it helps that it was clear to the both of them that they still loved each other when she broke up with him. Plus, he promised to continue dieting not just for her, but for himself, but probably mostly for her. 

Everything is open to interpetation, so I'm not going to tell you you're wrong if you fell for it!

It's just that for me, I'm annoyed that romance is a man a) ignoring what a woman told him, ie, "we're broken up" b) not having any indication that she has changed her mind and c) showing up somewhere uninvited in front of a large group of people where she is put on the spot.  OtterMommy really nailed it in her post (I'm assuming a mommy is a she :)  And of course, it's all okay because it turns out that's what she really wanted all along! And I do think Kate was happy to see Toby, it's just that it always works out that way in tv and movies. It makes the dismissing of women's feelings, pushing of boundaries and steamrolling something romantic instead of disturbing.  

And it doesn't work the other way around either.  When Kate pushed boundaries, ie, calling Toby after they had broken up and expecting to be able to vent and receive support from him, he rightfully shut her down.

I think Kate broke up with him for more than his diet, too.  I think she said something along the lines of "I need to get a handle on the weight.  I need to get a handle on all of it."  I think she was saying that she had things to work on separate from him.  But either way, Toby should discuss it with her rather than just declare that he is giving up junk food for himself and for her but not even ask how she is feeling about the whole issue.

Edited December 7, 2016 by DoubleUTeeEff
fixed formatting

[wilnil]

17 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Out of the many "Person of Interest" from my beloved show, [Jimmi Simpson] was one of my top 5 so it was a happy surprise to see him here! 

He's not the only Person of Interest to appear on this show. I was rewatching some Season 2 episodes of POI and was really startled to realize who played Cal Beecher.

[Lady Calypso]

6 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Everything is open to interpetation, so I'm not going to tell you you're wrong if you fell for it!

It's just that for me, I'm annoyed that romance is a man a) ignoring what a woman told him, ie, "we're broken up" b) not having any indication that she has changed her mind and c) showing up somewhere uninvited in front of a large group of people where she is put on the spot.  OtterMommy really nailed it in her post (I'm assuming a mommy is a she :)  And of course, it's all okay because it turns out that's what she really wanted all along! And I do think Kate was happy to see Toby, it's just that it always works out that way in tv and movies. It makes the dismissing of women's feelings, pushing of boundaries and steamrolling something romantic instead of disturbing.  

And it doesn't work the other way around either.  When Kate pushed boundaries, ie, calling Toby after they had broken up and expecting to be able to vent and receive support from him, he rightfully shut her down.

I think Kate broke up with him for more than his diet, too.  I think she said something along the lines of "I need to get a handle on the weight.  I need to get a handle on all of it."  I think she was saying that she had things to work on separate from him.  But either way, Toby should discuss it with her rather than just declare that he is giving up junk food for himself and for her but not even ask how she is feeling about the whole issue.

Ok! Fair enough! It's great that we all can interpret this show differently! Hey, sometimes I want to say "WHY CAN'T EVERYONE SEE MY POINT?!?!" but it's not all black and white, so if a show can get us actually discussing scenes and moments and characters like this, then I'm for it! 

I see your point now! I just think back to all those romantic comedy movies that...pretty much have these exact same types of scenes and I realized that those are supposed to be perceived as romantic, just like Toby/Kate. In hindsight, a lot of romantic comedies have very dysfunctional couples that probably shouldn't be rooted for in real life.

I'm just happy to have flawed characters on this show. Besides William and Jack, everyone has shown an actual dark side. Ok, William/Jack have had their dark sides, but they've mostly been presented in a more positive light. I am positive that William and Jack will get their moments to be flawed and hated as well. I'm just giving it time! I'm still waiting impatiently for the inevitable season 2 renewal!

[ShadowFacts]

44 minutes ago, izabella said:

This was all spelled out for us on the show, so I don't really understand why Kate is being seen as lacking agency or somehow a victim of Toby's love and caring. 

I don't believe she lacks agency, she is the one who broke up with him.  Nor do I see her as victim.  The only thing I question is from what they've shown us, the last contact they had was when she called him the day after T-Day and he told her to step off.  Unless more happened, why would he just show up for Christmas, without knowing she was receptive a month later?  To me there's a blank that needs to be filled in.  I personally think this was Toby's last Christmas, and she will at least be left with the knowledge that she made him pretty happy right before his end. 

[OtterMommy]

33 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Sloane's family seems a bit stereotypical.  The mom, especially! 

I don't disagree.  However, I actually like that stereotype.  If it were the main family, I'd have a problem with it.  However, it is the family of a character who, at least at the moment, is very secondary.  Even if Sloane becomes more integral to the story (and I hope she does), I doubt we'll see much of her family.  In small doses, I'm more than fine with stereotypical bickering Jewish New York family.

46 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

I don't care if William or anyone is gay but I feel like they do this for political reasons.  I'm sure there will be a transgender plot also.

I don't think if matters--or, at least, it doesn't matter to me-- what William's orientation may be.  What is important is that he has a meaningful relationship in his life.

[I-Kare]

47 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

I don't care if William or anyone is gay but I feel like they do this for political reasons.  I'm sure there will be a transgender plot also.

I was indifferent on Toby but I hope he lives.  I still find it hard to believe he would be so into someone that drastically overweight considering he had a "hot" wife.  I think if Kate struggled with 50 or so lbs it would be more realistic....but then they probably couldn't use the gastro bypass story line then.

I don't find the inclusion of a gay character as something political. I find it realistic and find it harder to believe there aren't more LGBT characters on prime time. 

I also don't find it hard to believe Toby would be attracted to Kate. Maybe he's just attracted to a wide variety of types. I sure am. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

10 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I personally think this was Toby's last Christmas, and she will at least be left with the knowledge that she made him pretty happy right before his end. 

I love how optimistic other people are!  I just think about how bad I would feel if someone died right after they flew 6 hours to see me and then had sex with me.  I'd be thinking, what if they'd lived if they hadn't gone through that?

[ShadowFacts]

15 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I love how optimistic other people are!  I just think about how bad I would feel if someone died right after they flew 6 hours to see me and then had sex with me.  I'd be thinking, what if they'd lived if they hadn't gone through that?

I'm not actually super optimistic, but in this case, maybe I'm putting a little silver lining in my head canon.  Whether he lives or dies, I hope she does not blame herself, because she obviously was not in on his plan. 

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Along with uninvited guests, what is it with this show about having sex in other people's houses?  

I think I figured out why older Rebecca doesn't quite work for me.  Mandy Moore doesn't age her voice at all.  My mother, and most people over about 60 I know, sound markedly different than they did 30 years ago.  Rebecca, however, sounds exactly the same.

I know, right? It's just icky to me.

I think you might be on to something regarding the voice. I hadn't noticed it, but I do remember back when I acted (in college) playing an older woman. Thanks to my instructor's guidance, I listened to my Mom and others to capture the vocal changes that age brings. I was pretty proud of duplicating it.

4 hours ago, Archery said:

 It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  Because I know I should help her learn good eating habits and portion control, but the chapter on how to accomplish that without triggering self-image problems seems to be missing from my parenting manual.

I've lived both sides of this. It's anyone's guess. The same comment or approach could send your kid into a spiral - or inspire them. And would work differently for a different one of your kids. That's my experience, anyway. I know that Rebecca's "did I do this to you" comment hit home - it's something my Mom once said to me (about something different, and no she didn't), and what I often fear regarding my own kids.

I liked this episode, even with all of its flaws (covered pretty well by everyone before this post).

Someone upthread mentioned that the way Toby fell was so real - I agree. I once saw a bull of a man fall this way at a wedding (though it was because he was dead drunk, not dead or dying). It is horrifying to see.

[saber5055]

Well, first off, congrats to this show for that doctor giving Kate real info on what happens with a gastric bypass. It's not just a "drop in, get surgery, lose weight, look great" thing. What was up with Rebecca being all kinds of socially awkward during that visit though. She's got some real issues and is the one who needs help IMO. And what was up with a doctor giving a routine pre-surgery interview of Christmas Eve, for pete's sake? Then when William is revealed to have a boyfriend who wants to spend his last days with him, all I could think was, AWKWARD. Are they both going to live in his room at Randall's house? What a no-win situation. And what's up with the daughter being able to spot gay/bi at first meeting. That's too precocious for me. Then, WTH is with Toby, flying across the country and dropping in UNINVITED on his EX girlfriend who BROKE UP WITH YOU. What a douche. For all he knew, Kate was there with her current man, like Kevin was with his current squeeze. I continue to hate Toby for being all ME, ME, ME. I never wanted to see him again so was all kinds of bummed when he showed up (breathing heavily and irritatingly). Not that I wanted him to die, I just wanted him to remain ... gone. And forgotten.

LOL at thinking Toby left this moral coil happy because he had sex. We can only assume there was sex and it was good. That is not always the case. Plus it was horrid of Kate to take Toby upstairs in her brother's house, and with kids around. What, does she have a room at Randall's? Or did they use Randall/Beth's bed? If so, just a big EWWWW to that.

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, Jx223 said:

Toby may not be that popular on this board, but I have seen him get a lot of support on places like Twitter. People were posting things like “Pray for Toby” last night.

Really?  Do these people not know that he is a tv character?

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't get this sense. In fact, I think they handled it more casually than most shows do. The overall reveal to the audience was so casual and so nonchalant that I appreciate they didn't make a big deal out of it all. And the "Gramps is gay, or at least bi" seemed to be more out of humor, and a way to show Randall that he still doesn't know his biological father as well as he could. There's still a lot that they need to learn before William dies.

After their initial shock Randall and Beth both seemed amused that they never realized it.  I like that it was not a big deal for anyone.

[Love2dance]

10 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I don't get all of the Toby hate. I like his character. 

I agree. I have always liked his character, if not all his choices (the football game). I will be very sad if they have killed off Tony, as it seems they have. And I will feel especially sorry for Kate.

[tennisgurl]

Rebecca and Jack remind me a bit of my parents, not so much in personality, but in positions within the family (although they're both alive, thank god). My Dad is the Fun Dad, who my sister and I get along great with due to his easy going nature, and my mom is the Rules Mom, who my sister and I are both sometimes in conflict with her over her neurosis, and how they affected us as we got older. My mom and I basically had the same "Did I do this to you?" conversation a few times, not over weight, but over some mental health issues I've had. We still struggle because she feels like her attempts at helping me when I was a teenager just made everything worse, although the situation was a lot more complicated than that, and I know she always meant well. We have a better relationship than Rebecca and Kate seem to have, but I see a lot of my mom in Rebecca. So, I tend to cut her some slack. The show might show her as the parents who makes the most mistakes, but its also going out of its way to show that she struggled a lot and did her best, even when she made mistakes. 

This show is like family therapy sometimes. But, luckily, my family has A LOT less drama. Sometimes. 

[Tiger]

4 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

My problems with the Toby re-appearance were:

1 - Just showing up at someone's house--someone you have NEVER met--is beyond odd. Especially if you have to fly 3000 miles to do it.  What if Kate had kicked him out?  What if everyone had come through on their cancellations and Toby showed up and Randall and Beth and the girls were the only ones there?  I get the grand gesture, but that was just a bit too much.  It reminds me of those over the top wedding proposal.  I'm all for romantic proposal, but when it is done in front of dozens, hundreds, thousands of people, does it give the proposee the ability (at least without undue pressure) to turn down the proposal if that is what they want?

2- Radio silence from him and then showing up makes no sense.  I mean, how did he even know Randall's address?  (I know...the internet...)

3 - It was just one more sign of Toby's lack of any boundaries.  Toby has some great qualities--he's warm-hearted and generous.  He's also pushy and has a tendency to steamroll over Kate.  This was just one more sign of it.

4 - I think Kate did quite a bit of growing in the past 2 episodes and, in one scene, it was all undone.

Now, did I want him to keel over?  No, of course not.  But I will say this...I really have no strong feelings about whether he lives or dies at this point.

 

4 hours ago, annewithaneee said:

Yep, I too wasn't moved one way or another because I have some real problems with how they're writing that character. If he does survive (which I kinda think he will), and their relationship plays out into a controlling, toxic, possibly emotionally abusive mess, kudos to the writers for foreshadowing it fairly subtly. But if he really is written with the intention of being a completely well-meaning supportive guy we're supposed to be rooting for....yeesh. He's overbearing and has little regard for boundaries, and seems to use grand gestures as romantic currency. Their relationship seems like one that could easily go dark. There's a lot of red flags for me for a guy who considers himself to be the 'nice guy' who women constantly reject. The quick introduction, and swift dismissal of his apparently emasculating bitch-monster of an ex wife also perturbed me. Not sure if they're setting him up to being a controlling gas-lighter, or if the show's just being really clumsy and lazy in setting up this romance.

All of the above is exactly why I want Toby gone for good.  If that objective is accomplished via death by heart-attack, then so be it.

[Johnny Dollar]

I initially  thought that the scenes where Randall tries to talk William/McPoyle off of the ledge were in Randall's imagination since nothing seemed to come of them.  

I love the Dr. Major Dad character. Best role for McRaney since Simon and Simon. 

[HeySandyStrange]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't get this sense. In fact, I think they handled it more casually than most shows do. The overall reveal to the audience was so casual and so nonchalant that I appreciate they didn't make a big deal out of it all. And the "Gramps is gay, or at least bi" seemed to be more out of humor, and a way to show Randall that he still doesn't know his biological father as well as he could. There's still a lot that they need to learn before William dies.

To me, the whole reveal of William's boyfriend Jesse worked so well because it could've easily been is his girlfriend Jessie that told him off. In other words, they didn't hit us over the head with the "They are Gay! GAY, I tell you! Look at how Gay they are!" It just felt like every human moment, just like it would've been between a hetero couple. And kudos to William and Jesse's actors, they had good chemistry with each other and I could really feel the tenderness, love and even passion between them.

[SnarkKitty]

20 hours ago, Court said:

This bears repeating: Sterling K. Brown is magic. How was I not aware of him before? 

Army Wives. Get you some (7 seasons) while you wait for the show to come back.

[Tiger]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I love the Dr. Major Dad character. Best role for McRaney since Simon and Simon. 

I will gladly handwave any possible inplausibility of Dr. Folksy Charm still being alive and coherent in 2016.  

[catrox14]

I was an early adopter of Sterling K. Brown when he was on Supernatural :)

[mtlchick]

4 hours ago, wilnil said:

He's not the only Person of Interest to appear on this show. I was rewatching some Season 2 episodes of POI and was really startled to realize who played Cal Beecher.

I was stunned to find that out when the show started.  

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

LGBT people do exist in the real world and and often their families don't even know they are LBGT. It's a realistic LIFE issue. I'm not seeing how it's inclusion is political. 

It's actually a beautiful thing for me to see, still being partly in the closet. Seeing the way everyone recognized that William was bi, then immediately accept it, gave me an enormous amount of hope. Especially since we see much more representation of the LG than the BT (and oh, what the people who fall under the Q+ part of the acronym go through seeking honest, accurate depictions). And I love that the focus is on how William found a late life love who cherishes him, not on the coming out aspect. Queer people are so much more complex than how we come out/transition. 

[J.D.]

Just when I was ready to throw in the towel on this show, they pulled me back in.  Here are my unorganized, random thoughts:

I  ~~~   L O V E  ~~~ the story line with William and Jesse.  And I love the speech Jesse gave at the meeting.  I want the two of them to stay together and to deal with the usual relationship ups and downs.

I don't dislike Toby, but I am having a hard time understanding what he sees in Kate.... and that comment has nothing to do with her weight.  It's just that she's such a negative person (Kate, not Chrissy) and Toby is always exhausting himself trying to impress her.   Side note:  If you watch the most recent 'aftershow' interviews with the cast, you can clearly see Chrissy's lost some weight.  Her face is a lot thinner in that clip and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they don't have her wearing padding elsewhere. 

Regarding Jack's death:  I think they'll drag that out until the very end of the series.... not the show, not the season.... the series!  In other words, if the show itself runs 2, 3, 5 - 10 years! - I think Jack's death will be in the series finale, and I believe it will be on Christmas Eve.  JMHO.  There's really no need to reveal it sooner.

I don't mind Dr. Folksy Charm, but I did think it was a bit odd that the Pearson's were keeping watch over him post surgery as opposed to being by Kate's bedside.

Dear Show's Writers:  Please, no more random acts of sex in grieving stranger's houses and no more disrespectful, unscheduled sexual rendezvous in your brother's upstairs bedroom.  It's creepy.  I mean -- WHO DOES THAT - !?!?!?!

Kevin's my least favorite character on the show.  I couldn't careless about Olivia.... and Sloane is, to me, somewhat similar.    I don't see the chemistry between Kevin and either of them.  I DO hope Kevin 'grows on me,' because he's certainly here to stay.

Randall, Beth and their whole family / story line is my FAVORITE part of the show.  I really like that whole family dynamic and now that they've added Jesse in the mix, I guess I'll give this show another chance.  

:D

[Happytobehere]

13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That Was Us:

Thank you so much for posting these clips.  I look forward to coming to the site and seeing them after each episode.

Nothing else to say as pretty much everyone has covered my thoughts and feelings on the episode.  I will say that I truly love this show.

[ShadowFacts]

12 minutes ago, J.D. said:

Regarding Jack's death:  I think they'll drag that out until the very end of the series.... not the show, not the season.... the series!  In other words, if the show itself runs 2, 3, 5 - 10 years! - I think Jack's death will be in the series finale, and I believe it will be on Christmas Eve.  JMHO.  There's really no need to reveal it sooner.

I just don't know if his death would have occurred on Christmas Eve, given how there were no clues to that in present day -- the family had elaborate Thanksgiving re-enactment, they would have had some commemoration of Jack's passing on Christmas Eve.

I didn't get if the work party location was the workplace, or the guy's residence.  Did Randall say something about 2nd Avenue when talking Andy off the ledge?  That he didn't want to end up splattered on 2nd Avenue?  I was just wondering if that is where they work, or was it a private residence. 

[OtterMommy]

5 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I just don't know if his death would have occurred on Christmas Eve, given how there were no clues to that in present day -- the family had elaborate Thanksgiving re-enactment, they would have had some commemoration of Jack's passing on Christmas Eve.

I didn't get if the work party location was the workplace, or the guy's residence.  Did Randall say something about 2nd Avenue when talking Andy off the ledge?  That he didn't want to end up splattered on 2nd Avenue?  I was just wondering if that is where they work, or was it a private residence. 

I assumed it was at the office...but then I re-watched the ep today and I think it might have been at his swanky residence.

I still think Christmas Eve is a strange day to have that sort of work function.  I also think that days are about 48 hours long in this universe.  When Beth and Randall got home, they immediately started getting their girls ready for bed...and then there was a party.  And it didn't seem like people just showed up at a late hour.  Instead, it seemed like everyone arrived when they had originally planned.  I don't get it...

There really isn't a reason for it.  This episode could have been structure so the present-day story took place over 12/23-24 or 12/24-25.  Just because the flashback took place over a few hours on 12/24 doesn't mean that the present-day had to match up exactly.

[Randomosity]

18 hours ago, bros402 said:

From this armchair doctor, since they had just had sex, they would've noticed discoloration - I got the full suite of tests April 2015 for DVT and I got a whole bunch of fun tests and questions. You get a lot of questions when your feet are purple and swollen - especially when there is a slow (10+ second) capillary refill).

In case you were curious, you get even more questions when your feet aren't purple and swollen from a DVT and they find nothing on the scans that could be causing it.

 

8 hours ago, Archery said:

I would guess that they rushed him into surgery because the DVT became a pulmonary embolism.  That feels and presents just like a heart attack. 

Yeah, the DVT wouldn't be the immediate/acute issue, it would be actually throwing a clot/ PE. Shortness of breath, chest pain, fainting... Just seemed like the reference to being squished on a long plane ride wasn't just to garner sympathy from Kate.

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I initially  thought that the scenes where Randall tries to talk William/McPoyle off of the ledge were in Randall's imagination since nothing seemed to come of them.  

I love the Dr. Major Dad character. Best role for McRaney since Simon and Simon. 

McPoyle!!!!  That is where I had seen him. 

That was an intense scene. 

I don't really care for the doctor character. 

Whats with that weird boss of Randall?  Throwing the bonus checks all over?  Pretty sleazy. 

The Toby story seemed like just a cheap way to get a cliffhanger for the December ending.  You don't tell someone and just show up to a strangers house on Christmas Eve to surprise them?  That's just weird. 

The playwright kept reminding me of a young Tina Fey/Liz Lemon. 

[ProudMary]

2 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I love the Dr. Major Dad character. Best role for McRaney since Simon and Simon. 

Don't need to go back far at all.  House of Cards.

[possibilities]

18 hours ago, bros402 said:

From this armchair doctor, since they had just had sex, they would've noticed discoloration

Unless they did it in the dark?

I somehow missed the reference to Clooney's current living situation-- can someone fill me in?

The kid actors on this show are amazingly good. I give credit to them, and also to the casting and directing staff. Maybe the writers, too. But I've seen a lot of stuff written OK and acted badly by kids, so I think it's more than the writing.

I think that was an NA (Narcotics Anonymous) meeting, not AA.

I thought Kate was explicit that her breaking up with Toby was only because he wasn't doing the weight  loss thing-- and that when he showed up, he knew she might reject him, anyway. I personally would have hated what he did, but I think it's in character for Kate to like it. If she had said no, he'd have had to go home or get a hotel (on Xmas! Good luck!) or sleep at the airport waiting for a flight, but he seems like the kind of person who wouldn't mind that the way I would. He's all spontaneity and I am not. But I've known people who were, and it seems to work for them. It doesn't mean they don't take no for an answer, it just means they don't mind the risk. I think the way they are writing him could go either way. He was terrible in the football episode, so maybe as Kate gets more confident we will in fact see that he doesn't take no for an answer. But I can't tell yet whether that's what they are setting up, or if they really are just a couple that is supposed to get off on the drama.

[ShadowFacts]

7 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I somehow missed the reference to Clooney's current living situation-- can someone fill me in?

Jesse said he had to go see the cat at the crazy neighbor's place. 

[Arcadiasw]

5 hours ago, izabella said:

I know this board hates Toby, but the show and Kate took great pains to include dialogue from Kate saying she brought him breakfast in bed because he had done so many nice things for her already, and that he exceeded her wildest Hugh Grant dreams.  She was clear that the diet thing was the only reason she was breaking up with him, and how extremely difficult it was for her to let him go.  And they showed her calling him after they broke up. 

 

True but Toby wasn't appreciative of the breakfast in bed. He complained about the food. He even told Kevin he was only putting up with it for sex.

 

44 minutes ago, J.D. said:

Dear Show's Writers:  Please, no more random acts of sex in grieving stranger's houses and no more disrespectful, unscheduled sexual rendezvous in your brother's upstairs bedroom.  It's creepy.  I mean -- WHO DOES THAT - !?!?!?!

 

I guess for Kate it was either sex now in her brother's house or sex later in her Mom's house where I think she's currently staying. Doubt it if Toby would've gotten a hotel where he and Kate can make up. He would've invited himself over to stay at Rebecca and Miguel's as he invites himself to everything.

 

3 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Well, first off, congrats to this show for that doctor giving Kate real info on what happens with a gastric bypass. It's not just a "drop in, get surgery, lose weight, look great" thing. What was up with Rebecca being all kinds of socially awkward during that visit though. She's got some real issues and is the one who needs help IMO. And what was up with a doctor giving a routine pre-surgery interview of Christmas Eve, for pete's sake? Then when William is revealed to have a boyfriend who wants to spend his last days with him, all I could think was, AWKWARD. Are they both going to live in his room at Randall's house? What a no-win situation. And what's up with the daughter being able to spot gay/bi at first meeting. That's too precocious for me. Then, WTH is with Toby, flying across the country and dropping in UNINVITED on his EX girlfriend who BROKE UP WITH YOU. What a douche. For all he knew, Kate was there with her current man, like Kevin was with his current squeeze. I continue to hate Toby for being all ME, ME, ME. I never wanted to see him again so was all kinds of bummed when he showed up (breathing heavily and irritatingly). Not that I wanted him to die, I just wanted him to remain ... gone. And forgotten.

Kate's weight is still a problem for Rebecca to understand. It will be interesting to see if she can ever deal with it.  I think Jesse has his own place. I don't think he will move in but he will be around the house more often which I think will be entertaining to see how Beth deals with all these extra guests in her house.

Kids are more aware of things than adults give them credit for. It was the older daughter who commented on William being gay or bi. I think she's 10 so it's not surprising she would know. I never heard of the term bi when I was eight but I knew what gay was. Kids today, unless they are sheltered, would know what gay or bi means, especially with society being more open about it.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

20 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Was that the longest Christmas Eve ever?  Beth and Randall went to a business dinner in the dark, apparently in NYC.  They then they come home and people show up, dinner was somehow prepared and then we have all this interaction after dinner?  Time for games too?  Amazing, at least to me...  Even with sundown around 4:30/5:00 in the East during this time, really?

I think they had a buffet, not a sit-down dinner.

 

20 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

Is no one else concerned that Randall literally had to talk a man off a ledge, and they just let him go?  I would not have assumed my chat worked so perfectly that I could let him go off on his own while I leave to celebrate Christmas.  

I think he was in shock, and when Beth suggested getting out of there and picking up the girls, he agreed.  Wonder if he also picked his bonus check off the floor.  He's going to need it to pay for the boat.

Edited December 8, 2016 by ItCouldBeWorse

[possibilities]

My fanwank about the lack of infant at Chanukah was that she was sleeping. Don't newborns sleep a lot? We only saw a few minutes of the family.

RE: sitting with the Dr vs with Kate, I thought Kate was in surgery while Dr was being prepped. But I did think his prep time was suspiciously long, and the brothers being unsupervised was unwise.

[Court]

50 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

True but Toby wasn't appreciative of the breakfast in bed. He complained about the food. He even told Kevin he was only putting up with it for sex.

 

I guess for Kate it was either sex now in her brother's house or sex later in her Mom's house where I think she's currently staying. Doubt it if Toby would've gotten a hotel where he and Kate can make up. He would've invited himself over to stay at Rebecca and Miguel's as he invites himself to everything.

 

Kate's weight is still a problem for Rebecca to understand. It will be interesting to see if she can ever deal with it.  I think Jesse has his own place. I don't think he will move in but he will be around the house more often which I think will be entertaining to see how Beth deals with all these extra guests in her house.

Kids are more aware of things than adults give them credit for. It was the older daughter who commented on William being gay or bi. I think she's 10 so it's not surprising she would know. I never heard of the term bi when I was eight but I knew what gay was. Kids today, unless they are sheltered, would know what gay or bi means, especially with society being more open about it.

Kids know more than people think. My daughter was 3 when she told a friend "girls can marry girls too or boys can marry boys." I said, that's right. It wasn't anything we ever had a conversation about it but she noticed our friends! 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

12 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I laughed at Beth I don't know about your marriage but we don't keep secrets. First Randall doesn't tell her he's searching for William and now he doesn't tell her he bought a boat.

Agreed.

12 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I also loved seeing Randall and Kevin running around again and I want to know if grandma gives Randall the same amount of Christmas cash as she give the twins. 

I believe the card wished Merry Christmas to "My Randall" which sounds pretty loving.  Also, $20 is a lot for a 9 year old even now, so I'm guessing they got the same.

 

12 hours ago, PRgal said:

As for Toby's hospitalization:  I think Rebecca said nothing bad happens on CHRISTMAS EVE.  She didn't say Christmas Day.  Toby's situation happened on December 25.

Wasn't that a Christmas Eve party?  Or are you saying he had his attack after midnight?

 

12 hours ago, Packerbrewerbadger said:

Olivia was so about acting and her career above all else, I find it strange she bolted the play - just because Kevin told her off?-  I don't think she even cared about him very much. Seems out of character for her.

Well, she didn't originally want to be in a play with "The Manny" so I guess she reverted to her original feelings once he told her off.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, ProudMary said:

Don't need to go back far at all.  House of Cards.

He was wonderful on Longmire.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

9 hours ago, Tikichick said:

That might be an exaggeration of Jack's super parenting.  I think we need to keep in mind what Jack had to say about the volume of presents under their tree -- We have three kids AND I work hard.

Jack works hard, not Rebecca?  I know his paycheck pays for the presents, but still.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

9 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I also know parents who don't go down the Santa road to begin with.

Once kids find out that the Santa story is made up, what happens to any belief they might have held in God's existence?  Wouldn't an 8 year old assume that if one were made up, they both were?  I've always wondered.  (And if you add in the tooth fairy. . . .)

[ItCouldBeWorse]

9 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I mean, how did he even know Randall's address?

Toby was originally going with Kate for Thanksgiving, so she might have told him at least the town, and certainly Randall and Beth's names.

[OtterMommy]

32 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Toby was originally going with Kate for Thanksgiving, so she might have told him at least the town, and certainly Randall and Beth's names.

Ah yes, I forgot about that.

Still, how would Toby have known that they were doing Christmas Eve at Randall's house?  Rebecca and Miguel's home is in the same area and looks to be just as big (and Miguel apparently really, really likes Christmas).

And, doesn't Miguel have a child (a daughter?) out there somewhere?

[Court]

Miguel has two kids with Shelly. Who knows where they are.

[breezy424]

4 hours ago, Tiger said:

I will gladly handwave any possible inplausibility of Dr. Folksy Charm still being alive and coherent in 2016.  

I don't think anyone implied that he was.

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I just don't know if his death would have occurred on Christmas Eve, given how there were no clues to that in present day -- the family had elaborate Thanksgiving re-enactment, they would have had some commemoration of Jack's passing on Christmas Eve.

I didn't get if the work party location was the workplace, or the guy's residence.  Did Randall say something about 2nd Avenue when talking Andy off the ledge?  That he didn't want to end up splattered on 2nd Avenue?  I was just wondering if that is where they work, or was it a private residence. 

Randall did say Second Av. which would be very unlikely for an investment firm as far as I know - correct me if I'm wrong.  Randall dealt in commodities.  I was thinking it was more the guy's residence than the office.  The whole segment didn't make sense between the partner throwing bonuses on the floor (BTW, I thought Wall Street bonuses are paid in January).  And then we have Randall talking the guy of the ledge.  Yikes Beth - back off.  And then the guy just 'folds' back into the party with Randall doing nothing.  Yeah, this guy is going to commit suicide and you just go pick up your kids and go home because he didn't do it at 'that' moment?  Because of this and Randall's past experience with stress, I too wondered if he imagined it.

I agree on the Christmas commemoration of Jack.  They made a big deal out of Thanksgiving but not Christmas.  Well, except for the 'nothing bad happens on Christmas Eve. 

On another note, wouldn't have Kate's surgery been much more quick than the doctor's yet they have Jack and Rebecca and the boys with the doctor after surgery sooner than Kate's? 

[SueB]

There was so much to unpack with this episode. I took a day just to savor it.  

"Beth for President" T-shirts would sell well.  She has the BEST LINES and reactions.  Every scene is just spot on.  I find myself watching her when she's not talking because it's a delight.

Oy. Kate. I have so many FEELS for Kate AND Rebecca.  Rebecca is clueless.  It doesn't mean she doesn't love Kate, but she really has no clue what her fixation on this issue DID to Kate.  And Rebecca DID fixate on this issue. Her "too much or not enough" isn't the point.  The point is that it was a source of constant worry about Kate not being good enough and Kate got told that directly and indirectly -- even if that was not Rebecca's intent.  Just like Rebecca's shock over Kate's Prozac and binging.  You don't understand Rebecca.  And I don't know if you EVER WILL.  It doesn't make Rebecca evil but it also doesn't endear me to her.  It just "is".  

Randall was again brilliant with the boat and trying to save Andy.  He gives the impression of a bit of a "stiff" in public but he just CAN'T BE.  Not with his family.  I just kinda love him. He's like the most sincere bundle of nerdiness and genius all wrapped up in a kind heart.  *sigh*

Kevin's in a pickle, big time. He NEEDS that play.  I'm glad that he and Sloane are going to try and make a go out of it.  And I do likBo e Sloane with him.  But honestly, it's "young Kevin" who I want to wrap up in a blankey and get some cocoa for.  He's so worried about his sister.  And did you see him holding his stomach?  He was having those empathy pains.  And his utterly sincere "which one works best" approach to faith.  Little Kevin has stolen my heart.

Toby, Toby, Toby.  I think he's dead.  And I feel bad.  As SOON as he stood up from the couch I thought... he looks GREY.  And then he keels over.  I did love what I think was a completely sincere declaration of love for Kate.  And if he's dead, Kate is going to blame herself and be scarred for life.  I'm worried for her. I don't want Toby dead but I don't see how this works with him alive either.  

William being Bi with a lover works for me.  And I can see him being so damn happy about Randall that he just ran off and left Jesse.  Shit move William.  I get it but it was a shit move.  He's damn lucky Jesse can forgive.  And the daughters twigging first was pretty funny.  

Finally, Miguel.  You know, I kinda liked him last night.  His goofy commitment to over-doing Christmas.  Falling asleep on the couch which everyone is talking.  Awkward "step-dad" comments.  He's growing on me.  

[SueB]

13 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I didn't HATE that they spent time with Dr K, but I did find it a little unrealistic that they would just let 2 of their pre-teen kids just roam the hospital without any supervision....

My father died when I was 12.  I wandered around his floor, alone, ALL the time.  It was 1975.

[methodwriter85]

I think parents were a little more paranoid by 1989 (if this is taking place in December 1989 like I think it is because these kids are 9 now, we're right after the Jacob Wetterling's abduction/murder), but I think you would figure that a kid would be safe in a building since it wasn't outside at night. I used to wander around by myself a lot back in the early 90's when I was 5, not 9/10-ish.

[bros402]

17 hours ago, LadyNebula said:

Ah, but if it was a quickie, all of his clothes might not have been off.  Plus, who'd be paying attention to skin color at that time? ;)

Dammit, I'm reduced to discussing fictional characters' sex lives.  My life is sad.

Anyhoo, I think I was overthinking it.  It'll be a heart attack, I'm sure.  But let it be known that if we do find out it was DVT, I'm gonna be the first to scream,"I knew it!  All of those medical examiner shows finally paid off!"

He looked to be adjusting his pants when coming down the stairs, but yeah

5 hours ago, Randomosity said:

 

Yeah, the DVT wouldn't be the immediate/acute issue, it would be actually throwing a clot/ PE. Shortness of breath, chest pain, fainting... Just seemed like the reference to being squished on a long plane ride wasn't just to garner sympathy from Kate.

Yeah.

[lucindabelle]

16 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

There is no way he could financially produce a Broadway production, or even off-Broadway.

He could, however, pull off a regional or off-off-Broadway production.  That may sound like small beans, but many a Broadway hit came from such humble beginnings.

Isn't he a millionaire several times over from his tv show?  An off Broadway show is a few hundred thousand at most. And regional productions can easily be in the millions. That said this was clearly a small off off house. Nitpick: it's bizarre that they were rehearsing onstage. That is almost never done because it's just too expensive. You don't get in the space until you load on: you're in a rehearsal room. If they are rehearsing onstage it means nobody else is renting the space and it's so cheap they would never be able to pay everyone- equity waiver- OR a resident theater but in NY those are all off Broadway not off off and again- you aren't using the space until tech. Sorry I know nobody cares but equity stage manager here and this particular point annoys me. They did the same thing on Girls.

 

jewish jersey girl here and gotta say, "Hanukkah dinner" isn't a thing. I mean you might spend a night of it with family and eat latkes but it is NOT a big holiday like thanksgiving or Passover and "telling the story" isn't part of it (again that's Passover). It actually would have made more sense as a Hanukkah party because some people do have them but to present it as if it's some typical Jewish family thing, just no.

 

also the bottle of manoschewitz was overkill. I don't know anyone who does not drink that ironically only. Had it been a flashback to the 70s, ok, otherwise no.

 

to the person who thought doctors charm would have been dead because he was in his 70s when the kids were born: then as now, loads of people did live into their 80s. So if he was early 70s or even mid no particular reason he'd be dead 10 years later. He did looks  exactly the same though. 

 

i also wondered if Andy weren't a hallucination. 

I know people can be bi but it kind of felt like the show forgot....

 

But anything to keep Denis O'Hare on my screen and thank G-D we got to find out what happened to the cat! (I REALLY wanted someone to bring the cat to NJ, & have it live in Randall's room. As in The Night Of).

Edited December 8, 2016 by lucindabelle
Spelling, new thought

[sasha206]

Is it me or has this show jumped the shark already?  The episodes are starting to become so hokey.  I mean, how many strangers get invited to a family holiday dinner?  And the lightbulb moments?  The fortuitous Christmas Eve appendicitis scare at the hospital with the dying doc?  

Edited December 9, 2016 by sasha206

[RedVelvetWaffles]

18 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

The thing that felt wrong to me in that scene is that Rebecca tossed off the line about the package of cookies in a passive-aggressive manner, immediately assuming that was the problem, instead of talking to Kate directly about it, privately, when she discovered the open package.  That wasn't helpful in the moment or in the big picture, it betrayed a little hostility the way I saw it.  Plus, I don't believe a fun, hands-on parent like Jack would settle for packaged Santa cookies -- they would have been home made by the whole gang with flour and frosting everywhere.   Nitpick.  Oh, also, the kids are a little old for Santa belief unless they didn't and it was just tradition being kept up. 

Rule in my family has always been - You stop believing in Santa and you get nothing from him. I'm not taking that chance and I'm a grown-up. I believe. 

They probably had or were going to bake cookies, but somebody saw those cookies and wanted them. It happens. I do the same thing. I know in a couple of weeks I'll be baking cookies, but that doesn't mean packaged cookies won't be bought too. Somebody will see them, want them, and we'll do a taste comparison. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by RedVelvetWaffles

[J.D.]

8 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Jack works hard, not Rebecca?  I know his paycheck pays for the presents, but still.

I saw it as an '80's' thing, not an insult.  Especially since Jack is so loving and well liked.  If Jack was an ass, then I could see him saying that kind of statement out of a misogynistic belief.... but that's not the Jack we've come to know and love.  He has tremendous respect for Rebecca.

Edited December 8, 2016 by J.D.