Season 4 Discussion

[Kickboxer]

9 hours ago, CoachWristletJen said:

Chantel's friend, Gege, has a very calming voice; she should be a nurse or an EMT worker.

Thank-you for reminding me of Gege, she and Pedro are the only ones I can stand in the segments with Family Chantal. Both of them are Disney Channel gorgeous too, very easy on the eyes. Mother Chantal does crack me up with her fashion choices, like perhaps she is in the Witness Protection Program and not doing it right.

Nicole is a moronic baby and I don't understand the point of over-feeding her to make her shut up. Once she is 18 the other party (long-suffering mom included) can just leave instead of trying to placate Nicole with boatloads of corn and mashed potatoes. I miss Azan, his sideways looks at her were hilarious. 

Agree with all who posted that the "Any objection.." part of the wedding service is rarely included, that has to be producer-driven. Or maybe Matt (haha, at first I typed Patrick) and his mom are really that clueless. You know Merry planned the complete wedding, giving Alla no say. Alla remains awesome. I bet they do well married for as long as she wants them too, that woman has a will of iron and I love the dark looks she shoots.

The most fun part of Anfisa and Jorge is how she makes production run around in circles. Clearly I am going to Hell cuz that cracks me up. Jorge is getting what he paid for. 

[magemaud]

How convenient that a basketball coach married a cheer-leading coach! 

Edited November 16, 2016 by magemaud
spelling

[athousandclowns]

I unfortunately watched 3 hours of my PBS shows then this crap fest. I should have done it the other way and may have saved some gray matter. The fast clip for next week shows what looks like Nicole at the reunion with her moronic grin but not the love of her life.  I have to say I'm impressed with her young brother! 

[NoSpam]

On 11/9/2016 at 10:39 AM, GoGamecox said:

So now that California legalized marijuana, does this mean Jorge is going to be filthy rich? Maybe Anfisa will stay after all?

No. There is going to be a lot of competition, and a well-funded group of professional businesses will no doubt take it over. 

Also they're still at risk of seizure by the FDA, which has happened to a few major suppliers in LA already.

[Natalie68]

1 hour ago, Kickboxer said:

Thank-you for reminding me of Gege, she and Pedro are the only ones I can stand in the segments with Family Chantal. Both of them are Disney Channel gorgeous too, very easy on the eyes. Mother Chantal does crack me up with her fashion choices, like perhaps she is in the Witness Protection Program and not doing it right.

Nicole is a moronic baby and I don't understand the point of over-feeding her to make her shut up. Once she is 18 the other party (long-suffering mom included) can just leave instead of trying to placate Nicole with boatloads of corn and mashed potatoes. I miss Azan, his sideways looks at her were hilarious. 

Agree with all who posted that the "Any objection.." part of the wedding service is rarely included, that has to be producer-driven. Or maybe Matt (haha, at first I typed Patrick) and his mom are really that clueless. You know Merry planned the complete wedding, giving Alla no say. Alla remains awesome. I bet they do well married for as long as she wants them too, that woman has a will of iron and I love the dark looks she shoots.

The most fun part of Anfisa and Jorge is how she makes production run around in circles. Clearly I am going to Hell cuz that cracks me up. Jorge is getting what he paid for. 

I don't like this part actually.  These people there to do a job not chase down famewhores.  If they don't want to film the camera people etc need to go home and cut J&As pay appropriately.  Jorge is an idiot and Anfisa is nuts.  They can be that without making these poor production folks jobs harder.

[bethster2000]

My prediction for Nicole, ten years from now: spilling off the sides of a electric shopping scooter in Walmart, with a knocked-up Mae at her side, arguing in the cereal aisle about whether or not they should buy Lucky Charms or Cocoa Puffs.

[LaChavalina]

6 hours ago, balisticnikki said:

Does Nicole work for Starbucks? I heard Starbucks baristas do OK. But yes, with a child, Nicole could qualify for all sorts of public assistance (even if there's nothing medically wrong with her), depending on her income and if she is receiving any child support from the baby's father.

Some of this ground was covered in the thread from last episode, but by my calculations Nicole would have to be making under $13/hour not to meet the income requirements for the visa. Where I live, a major shipping company is advertising warehouse jobs (no experience required) starting at $15/hour, so I suspect Nicole's biggest financial hardship is a lack of willpower to do anything more physically or mentally demanding than what she's doing now.

Also, she lives in Florida so there is a lifetime cap on how long she can receive public assistance. Four years max, and I think only a couple hundred dollars a month.

[magemaud]

Did anyone else think Matt kind of leered like a Creepy Old Uncle at Alla's sister at the airport?  

[lovesnark]

5 hours ago, bethster2000 said:

My prediction for Nicole, ten years from now: spilling off the sides of a electric shopping scooter in Walmart, with a knocked-up Mae at her side, arguing in the cereal aisle about whether or not they should buy Lucky Charms or Cocoa Puffs.

I like your prediction but in my fantasy, Nicole's sister gets guardianship of May after Nicole takes off to chase another online 'love' and is gone for weeks and weeks and refuses to come back and care for her daughter. May grows up happy and healthy and becomes an immigration attorney.

[Landlord]

15 hours ago, magemaud said:

How convenient that a basketball coach married a cheer-leading coach! 

High school sweethearts, maybe? The Basketball team captain and cheer captain? 

7 hours ago, lovesnark said:

I like your prediction but in my fantasy, Nicole's sister gets guardianship of May after Nicole takes off to chase another online 'love' and is gone for weeks and weeks and refuses to come back and care for her daughter. May grows up happy and healthy and becomes an immigration attorney.

I like this one better. For May.

[MrSmith]

Well, my wife finally got home from out of town and we were able to watch 90 Day Fiance last night. Wow. Just wow. Nicole is beyond dumb and entitled. She's definitely on the road to becoming Danielle with her attitude of "If I can't pay for it right now, then I'll just get someone else to pay for it". Her mother is definitely helping her too much in her life already. She needs to make Nicole's life as hard on Nicole as she possibly can and force Nicole to realize the only way she's really going to get anything in life is to do for herself. It was enjoyable to see the looks that crossed the lawyer's face as she was talking to Nicole. I guess I really am reaching the end of my rope with these people for this season because I am running out of things to say about the episodes. I'm really sick of Jorge and Anfisa. I wish he would just send that bitch packing and then call an end to their storyline. He seems to be a bit like Nicole in that he's going to do the thing that people tell him he shouldn't do specifically because people whose advice he trusts are telling him not to do it. The whole thing is exhausting, but it was nice to see Lourdes again. She really wins this whole season with her calm demeanor, no-bs approach, and her killer expressions that say everything without a word being spoken. The look she gave her other sister for saying that that's what you get when you pay someone to spread their legs tells me she clearly understands Jorge better than their sisters and indicates to me that she knows that their sister having said that is just going to cause Jorge to see this through to the bitter end.

As for Chantel and Pedro, Chantel's family can't be any more classless than they were last night with looking over the stupid and fake pre-nuptial agreement. I can't imagine they could be satisfied with it since it's so generic. Pedro should have just run away from that family. Apparently, the sex is just that good.

Anyway, I'm ready for all these people to be off my TV - unless Lourdes is going to come to the reunion. Then I can stand it for a little longer.

[Drogo]

The newest episode of 90 Day Fiance should be discussed in its own thread, HERE.

[Trace]

1 hour ago, MrSmith said:

Well, my wife finally got home from out of town and we were able to watch 90 Day Fiance last night. Wow. Just wow. Nicole is beyond dumb and entitled. She's definitely on the road to becoming Danielle with her attitude of "If I can't pay for it right now, then I'll just get someone else to pay for it". Her mother is definitely helping her too much in her life already. She needs to make Nicole's life as hard on Nicole as she possibly can and force Nicole to realize the only way she's really going to get anything in life is to do for herself. It was enjoyable to see the looks that crossed the lawyer's face as she was talking to Nicole. I guess I really am reaching the end of my rope with these people for this season because I am running out of things to say about the episodes. I'm really sick of Jorge and Anfisa. I wish he would just send that bitch packing and then call an end to their storyline. He seems to be a bit like Nicole in that he's going to do the thing that people tell him he shouldn't do specifically because people whose advice he trusts are telling him not to do it. The whole thing is exhausting, but it was nice to see Lourdes again. She really wins this whole season with her calm demeanor, no-bs approach, and her killer expressions that say everything without a word being spoken. The look she gave her other sister for saying that that's what you get when you pay someone to spread their legs tells me she clearly understands Jorge better than their sisters and indicates to me that she knows that their sister having said that is just going to cause Jorge to see this through to the bitter end.

As for Chantel and Pedro, Chantel's family can't be any more classless than they were last night with looking over the stupid and fake pre-nuptial agreement. I can't imagine they could be satisfied with it since it's so generic. Pedro should have just run away from that family. Apparently, the sex is just that good.

Anyway, I'm ready for all these people to be off my TV - unless Lourdes is going to come to the reunion. Then I can stand it for a little longer.

I wish I could give you a kazillion likes for that post

[magemaud]

I hope sensible Lourdes rescues that poor kitten

[sarah82]

There was a new episode last night?

[MrSmith]

11 minutes ago, sarah82 said:

There was a new episode last night?

Sorry, no. It's from Sunday, but I only just got to watch it last night. I apologize for the confusion.

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Jorge and Anfisa have a fight right before their wedding; Azan gets bad news from Nicole; Narkyia mulls breaking up with Lowo; Matt worries that his friend will speak out at the ceremony. Also: a "90 Day Fiancé" reunion.

[ChristmasJones]

I am confused- what episode is this?  I thought there was a thread for the episode on Sunday night 11/13 already.....

[TheVoicesToldMeTo]

Don't the cast members get paid to be on the show?  How does Nicole not have $$ to pay for the K1?  Wouldn't her paycheck for the show count as a her earnings that ability to sponsor is based on?  I'm not saying they are getting paid millions like the Real housewives, but they must be getting paid something.

[MrSmith]

46 minutes ago, ChristmasJones said:

I am confused- what episode is this?  I thought there was a thread for the episode on Sunday night 11/13 already.....

This *IS* the thread for that episode.

35 minutes ago, TheVoicesToldMeTo said:

Don't the cast members get paid to be on the show?  How does Nicole not have $$ to pay for the K1?  Wouldn't her paycheck for the show count as a her earnings that ability to sponsor is based on?  I'm not saying they are getting paid millions like the Real housewives, but they must be getting paid something.

My guess is that the show paid her way to Morocco (including covering any bills she might have at home during the period she was away) and that was either completely or mostly in lieu of cash. I would bet they even got to effectively pay her less than everyone else because of this. Nicole is certainly stupid and desperate enough to sign up for that deal.

[Kath94]

1 hour ago, ChristmasJones said:

I am confused- what episode is this?  I thought there was a thread for the episode on Sunday night 11/13 already.....

This is confusing, ChristmasJones.  Both S04E11 and S04E12 are dated 11/13 on this forum.  They have different titles, but I'm not sure the titles are actually shown in the episode.

[ChristmasJones]

Kath94 I think you are right

OK, I just went on the website and watched this episode-  I think what happened is they showed two episodes back-to-back on Sunday 11/13 and these got recorded by our DVRs as one long episode (including the one hour for 90 Day Fiance: Happily Ever After) - so all the comments on the other thread apply to this episode as well ....

Edited November 17, 2016 by ChristmasJones

[magemaud]

I think many of us were confused by what seemed to be a two hour long episode Sunday night. The forum for the first episode "Are You Ready for This" was closed for further comments yesterday and some of the discussions were moved to this forum ("Too Little Too Late") and have been continued here. 

[gavinmac]

I think Nicole announced she was taking her daughter to Morocco as a way to punish her mother for not agreeing to sponsor Azan.

Chantel's friend Gege is very cute and seems oddly normal.  I used to think Chantel's parents were normal, until they asked to see the prenuptial agreement at the wedding.

Does George not have a credit card? Who buys airline tickets in cash at the airport?  Did he give her the $10,000? He gave her the $10,000, didn't he. Of course he did.

[Kiss my mutt]

Chantal and Pedro seem like they are auditioning to be cast in a telanovela. It's all, no baby, no, and do you want to marry me or not? (In Spanish, of course) 

Thats going to get old in every day life when the cameras aren't on them. 

Do you want to eat chicken tonight or not?  No, baby, no, you don't like the chicken. Oh, baby, no seas enojado conmigo as she puts her chest in his face.  

[magemaud]

8 hours ago, TheVoicesToldMeTo said:

Don't the cast members get paid to be on the show? 

According to this casting website, the participants DON'T get paid to be on the show. http://castingmaster.com/90-day-fiance-casting-guide/

But they don't say whether or not TLC picks up the tabs for flights, hotels, etc. (for example Nicole's trip to Morocco) Does anyone know about that? Do they get paid to be on "Happily Ever After"? 

[merylinkid]

The website says they don't paid.   What does the contract the people signed actually say? 

I would love to get my hot little lawyer hands on one of the contracts.  What are the protections for the foreign fiance/e to be paid and not just have the American control all the money?   Is it paid even if there is not a wedding?  

[Hero]

George is whipped and he looks like he is being held hostage by Anfisa.

[Lola16]

TLC had a 10 minute preview. Guess how many times in that did Anfisa tell Jorge money mattered most?

[Major Bigtime]

Quote

The website says they don't paid.   What does the contract the people signed actually say? 

 

Responding in spoiler thread.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Major Bigtime

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

The couples from Season 4 discuss the status of their relationships and what they've been up to since their time on the show.

[CreamedPeas]

Chantel is such a weirdo. She's so awkward. Her mannerisms. The way she smiles and then her head drops and she gets a strange look on her face. 

She sure looks like her mom. 

[gonecrackers]

36 minutes ago, CreamedPeas said:

Chantel is such a weirdo. She's so awkward. Her mannerisms. The way she smiles and then her head drops and she gets a strange look on her face. 

She sure looks like her mom. 

Or she's just a bad actress.

[happy hobo]

On 11/16/2016 at 2:18 PM, seacliffsal said:

I think that Nicole's mother has spoiled and enabled her.  I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but then I realized that even agreeing to appear on this show would have been in response to Nicole's desires and wants.  I really don't know why family members would appear on this show if they have any inkling that their child is stubborn and willful, knowing how the public would perceive that child.  Nicole's mom knows the ways in which Nicole tries to manipulate others, has a temper, and is very pouty and yet she still agreed to participate in the show.  

 

Perhaps Mom thought all the criticism that Nicole would receive from viewers of the show might shock the little snowflake into the land of real life. While Mom might find it difficult to call Nicole out on her weight.......plenty of '"fans'" would. Where she might have been unable to get thru her head that her whinny/bratty stubbornness is very unattractive. I'm sure Nicole has been told many times by family members and just tuned them out. This may have been the parent's Hail Mary shot at getting thru to her. 

[AmyBre]

Is this show about relationships or is it about money?  Anfisa is going for Jorge's money, and Alla is going after Matt's, according to Patrick.

By the way, another reason Chantel's prenup is a phony is because they are signing the prenup and getting married on the same day.  Usually, a real prenup, even one that you prepare yourself, takes work and various revisions.   How is is that these two halfwits downloaded it, printed and signed it, all within a day.  Prenups require the presence of a notary and at least one attorney to review it.  None of this was done for this poor excuse for a story line.   Do they think that people will believe that two people who can make a pot of coffee and live in a studio apartment can review and prepare a prenup in a couple of hours?

Narkiya is as desperate as Nicole.  I predict that Lowo is going to sweettalk her into taking him back and she's so lonely and sad that she'll take him.   I could see flying around the world for Alla, but for Narkiya or for Lowo, I just don't understand it.    Is the market for single people in the US that bad??!!    The worst of it is that of all the couples Narkiya and Nolo are the only ones doing lovey dovey stuff that people in love do.   Chantel did a little bit to greet Pedro and because she read on an old issue of Cosmopolitan magazine that it looked good.  But Chantel has no love for anyone but herself.   Poor Pedro.  

Guys, when a girl likes you, she will do things and tell you things to show it.   I have girlfriends that are introverted and girlfriends that are extroverted and I could see it in their face when they are with a guy they like/love or when they are with a guy they can't wait to get rid of and don't want to be around.   Same goes for guys.   A man will smile and be pleasant and just show affection in his own way.   I don't see any of that with any of the couples.   I just don't see affection between Matt and Alla but at least she's truthful about it and has told him she doesn't love him at this moment.   She will in the future but she's mature enough to tell him that such a beautiful thing takes time and it's not instant coffee.  I respect that.

[magemaud]

Did they ever say if Nicole's father is in her life? 

[Landlord]

1 hour ago, magemaud said:

Did they ever say if Nicole's father is in her life? 

He was present at her farewell dinner with his (newer) wife. It sparked a huge debate (on here) about if it's right or not for new spouses to be involved or what ever. He hasn't been seen since then, who knows, maybe Nicole will run to him for sponsorship next week. 

[CoachWristletJen]

On 11/16/2016 at 1:15 PM, Neurochick said:

Yes, it's called "SpoiledBrat-itus," kind of like "FameWhore-itus."

I hate to say this lest people run in the wrong direction with it, but I'm starting to wonder if there's something going on with Nicole neurologically ~ like perhaps she had some kind of a head injury when she was little? Something is wrong, with the voice octavation, the way she goes from zero to 60 and cannot stop herself from yelling and interrupting. The way she was getting sooo touchy-feely with poor Azan and they practically had to threaten to cut her hands off to get her to stop. Telling her it was illegal didn't make a difference. Blatant social cues didn't make a difference.

Also, the way she views the world is very lopsided somehow. She's ready to recite Azan's list of failings, knowing full well that it will build her mother's case. But she completely omits her own as if she doesn't even SEE how obnoxious she acted. Like the tape recorder in her head is running but it doesn't record her own behaviors.

Something is wrong.

It's not all  neurological though. A big component of it is willful. Nicole getting her way, over and over again. Acting like a huge brat.

[CoachWristletJen]

About Anfisa, the Evil Queen. I know, I know.

I hate saying this because it takes a lot of the fun out of it.

However, she seems to like Jorge more than she let on in the previous episodes.

Some of you picked up on that earlier on, and I think you were right.

If she really does care about him, I'm glad for him and for her.

I know she's acted mean, but I still hated the thought of her giving herself away to a man she didn't care for in the least. I get that she's a consenting adult, but she's still very young.

And, I'm sure TLC talked her into playing that part, acting mean. Sometimes I almost got the impression that she was getting caught up in it after being coached and she didn't really like what she was doing anymore. I get the impression that people from foreign countries have more trouble gauging how they are going to come across in these reality shows.

And, face it Jorge did lie to her, and he basically kept her in an empty apartment day in and day out. No TV, no other friends, nada. I'd be cranky, too.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that Jorge is a stoner. That explains that dead look on his face that so many pot smokers get when they swear they're running on all eight cylinders.  I think she threw him out that night because he was too stumbly and baked.

I just hope she doesn't start smoking it with him out of frustration because then she'll get that dead look too.

She's digging for gold. I get that; it's an unattractive quality. But she's also very young.

For her I hope that her life can have meaning.

Jorge could sweat off 80 pounds and get healthy. They could have a kid or two, and her whole outlook could change.

With Danielle or Narkyia I think okay you're fully grown assed women you are old enough to know better. If you don't know by now, there's not so much hope.

But for Anfisa, young and obviously damaged by her short life, I am hopeful. And I think she needs a little kindness.

Edited November 18, 2016 by CoachWristletJen

[Trace]

2 hours ago, CoachWristletJen said:

I hate to say this lest people run in the wrong direction with it, but I'm starting to wonder if there's something going on with Nicole neurologically ~ like perhaps she had some kind of a head injury when she was little? Something is wrong, with the voice octavation, the way she goes from zero to 60 and cannot stop herself from yelling and interrupting. The way she was getting sooo touchy-feely with poor Azan and they practically had to threaten to cut her hands off to get her to stop. Telling her it was illegal didn't make a difference. Blatant social cues didn't make a difference.

Also, the way she views the world is very lopsided somehow. She's ready to recite Azan's list of failings, knowing full well that it will build her mother's case. But she completely omits her own as if she doesn't even SEE how obnoxious she acted. Like the tape recorder in her head is running but it doesn't record her own behaviors.

Something is wrong.

It's not all  neurological though. A big component of it is willful. Nicole getting her way, over and over again. Acting like a huge brat.

And? The way she constantly slammed her head into his neck?? Azan - most mature women don't do that - Nicole is an over grown toddler.  You can do better!

[Trace]

Like eleventy billion times

[LaChavalina]

19 hours ago, CoachWristletJen said:

And, I'm sure TLC talked her into playing that part, acting mean. Sometimes I almost got the impression that she was getting caught up in it after being coached and she didn't really like what she was doing anymore. I get the impression that people from foreign countries have more trouble gauging how they are going to come across in these reality shows.

Compared to previous seasons, this season really comes across as overproduced and scripted. Chantal and family are as fake as can be, there are scenes with Nicole where you can actually see her looking off-camera for cues. I think the producers were so interested in finding the next Dani/Mo that they packed this season with unlikable couples and phoney personas. Alla is still the only sympathetic person this season, and that makes me even more sad that she's marrying a cardboard cutout of a real man. 

In related news, who decides it's appropriate to have a ceremony and a rehearsal dinner and (probably) a reception for their fourth wedding, when the bride only has one guest to invite? Rich guys on TV shows, that's who.

[IvySpice]

Quote

for Narkiya or for Lowo, I just don't understand it.    Is the market for single people in the US that bad??!! 

If you are an overweight, middle-aged black woman with a child in central Pennsylvania, and you're looking for a young, fit black dude to marry...yeah, I think the market's pretty tight. There isn't a partner for everyone. None of that excuses Narkiya's indulgence in this absurd, expensive fantasy, but a lot of folks need to compromise more than they want to or else be single.

It looked to me like Nicole had some meatloaf under all the mashed potatoes and corn.

[ChiCricket]

On 11/6/2016 at 7:57 PM, spankydoll said:

Who can I appeal to about have Jorge's drivers license revoked? Reckless isn't even the word for that moron. TLC shouldn't put the producers at risk by having them in the car with that fat clueless ahole is texting and driving. I hope that his insurance carrier catches this footage and cancels his policy.

Not to mention I don't think he even had a seat belt on..idiot

[Trace]

RUN Azan run!!!  Coming to America is so not worth it honey!! It's not an Eddie Murphy movie.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Trace

[Miss Chevious]

 Nicole really likes meatloaf lol.

[Toaster Strudel]

Narkiya doesn't hide how exciting she finds his lying and cheating very well.

That's totally the attraction for her.  She's addicted to his lying and her "finding out the truth."

[Trace]

9 hours ago, LaChavalina said:

Compared to previous seasons, this season really comes across as overproduced and scripted. Chantal and family are as fake as can be, there are scenes with Nicole where you can actually see her looking off-camera for cues. I think the producers were so interested in finding the next Dani/Mo that they packed this season with unlikable couples and phoney personas. Alla is still the only sympathetic person this season, and that makes me even more sad that she's marrying a cardboard cutout of a real man. 

In related news, who decides it's appropriate to have a ceremony and a rehearsal dinner and (probably) a reception for their fourth wedding, when the bride only has one guest to invite? Rich guys on TV shows, that's who.

And the way she would cross her arms defiantly when questioned by Azan?  "I aint one of those sit down and say nothing kind of girls!!!" Honey? Seriously??? You need to shut up. You are dealing with a Muslim man who basically looks down on women.  Which you would know if you did any research on the Muslim culture.  Most American women despise  idiots like you.  Shut up and quit making us look stoopid. K???

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, IvySpice said:

If you are an overweight, middle-aged black woman with a child in central Pennsylvania, and you're looking for a young, fit black dude to marry...yeah, I think the market's pretty tight. There isn't a partner for everyone. None of that excuses Narkiya's indulgence in this absurd, expensive fantasy, but a lot of folks need to compromise more than they want to or else be single.

It looked to me like Nicole had some meatloaf under all the mashed potatoes and corn.

 

2 minutes ago, Trace said:

 

Lowo is young? Narkiya could definitely find someone in this country. We aren't all shallow.

Edited November 20, 2016 by DangerousMinds

[biakbiak]

30 minutes ago, Trace said:

And the way she would cross her arms defiantly when questioned by Azan?  "I aint one of those sit down and say nothing kind of girls!!!" Honey? Seriously??? You need to shut up. You are dealing with a Muslim man who basically looks down on women.  Which you would know if you did any research on the Muslim culture.  Most American women despise  idiots like you.  Shut up and quit making us look stoopid. K???

Sorry but this is not true about many, many Muslim men and doesn't seem to be true of Azan or his brother in law. I have spent time living in  several different Muslim countries: Morocco, Indonesia, and Bosnia and this also doesn't reflect my experience.

Edited November 20, 2016 by biakbiak