Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[Tuxcat]

5 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Derick knows the assumptions people will make from "human trafficking" no matter what the technical definition. It's super manipulative of him, especially considering that he sought inclusion into that "human trafficking" and was an enthusiastic participant for years. 

I'm sorry, but as gross as reality tv is, equating it to the horrors of human trafficking is even worse. 

I completely agree. While I enjoy the anti Jim Bob train I am still not ready to hop on the Derrick train. He judges others by only his own measurement of morality. Derrick possesses the same impossible brick wall. His way. His view. He is right. No one else. His voice - interesting. Fiery condemnation for JimBob - a different tone used when discussing CSAM?  Compare 19 kids and counting to human trafficking? He's not righteous.  He's angry and wants to beat his nemesis. Derrick has the potential to be the same level of manipulative. He knows people won't consider the word akin. 

I don't mind JimBob being called out but Derrick really needs to figure out an end game here. Otherwise he's just spitting in the wind and the boomerang could be nasty.

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, SnapHappy said:

SO brave of Derrick to throw out these accusations years after the fact.  So forthcoming and righteous of him to defend the family when OTHER people have started the ball rolling against Jim Bob.  He's a remora, latching onto others that are taking a stand against Jim Bob.  He rides coattails. 

And right, all this horrible behavior has JUST NOW come to his attention and JUST NOW he realizes that Jim Bob is an egotistical scumbag. 

Where was bold & outspoken Derrick when Jim Bob forced his wife to go on national TV and LIE to defend her perverted molester brother?  Oh yeah, he was harassing a teenager about their sexual orientation.  So brave, so upstanding, so righteous. 

He's as big a hypocrite as Josh.

There could be a lot of reasons Derick never spoke up before. Maybe Jill asked him not to. Comparing Derick to Smuggar, a convicted sex offender, is silly. 

[irisheyes]

If I think of a line between JB and Derrick, I’m more on Derrick’s side, but only by an inch or two. He may be a jerk, but he’s been a good support for Jill during this trial, and I doubt he has a closet full of skeletons named “Shady Financial Deals that May or May Not be Legal”.  And, his kids are getting an education that will give them the opportunity to become fully functioning adults. So, he wins over JB by a lot there.  Hopefully, he can pass the bar and figure out what he wants to do with his life.  Maybe this trial will encourage him find an organization where he can help fight for victims of CSA.  Or, maybe he’ll go work for the Family Research Council.  It’s a crapshoot. 🤷‍♀️

But, he can burn JB all he wants. I am HERE for that. Cheering the whole way. 

[GeeGolly]

Early on when Jill and Derick married I had high hopes for Derick. For each misstep he had I continued to give him the benefit of the doubt. Even when their fundraising started to get wonky, I held out some hope. But soon thereafter Derick started showing his true colors and after his SM hate rant, I was done. His continued ambiguously defensive posts left me know doubt who he was. Derick going after his FIL for money did not change my mind back. Derick going to law school did nothing to change my mind either. And I've never seen him as being particularly supportive of Jill and I still don't.

I will never be Team Derick because he crossed the line from preaching to the choir to outwardly spewing his hate. In this instance I chose to ignore his hyperbole about human trafficking, because Derick, is, well, Derick and he is the only one of the Duggar clan who has actually had the balls to stand up to JB. I give him lots of credit for his straightforward post about JB's shenanigans.

[3 is enough]

I guess I have a bit of a different take, but I take Derick's statement about Jim Bob's actions being "akin to human trafficking" as a dig about getting the grown married kids to appear on Counting On, and pocketing all the money.  Essentially he was profiting from their work.  YMMV, of course.

I don't agree with Derick on many things, but he has been supportive of Jill, and I have to admire them for breaking away. It could not have been an easy thing to do.

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, irisheyes said:

But, he can burn JB all he wants. I am HERE for that. Cheering the whole way. 

The more the better !

[Tuxcat]

25 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

I don't agree with Derick on many things, but he has been supportive of Jill, and I have to admire them for breaking away. It could not have been an easy thing to do.

I often wonder about this. On the one hand we absolutely see a more mainstream family with the boys going to public school. We've seen them break away and we think Derrick is supportive of Jill (although we don't actually know that - what are her goals and dreams?). They seem happy, but of course social media isn't real. We should've learned a lesson these last few years - we don't really know what goes on behind closed doors.

 I am always torn.  Derrick as the cryptic critic on social media is fairly obviously the source of Jill's split from her mother and father. And while that's very good in terms of getting away from the manipulative cult- like trappings of the Duggar compound  - the split itself and the way it has unfolded was sure to make Jill sad. I do wonder if they could have found more independence without the giant crack that's probably caused so much pain. Given Derrick's highly opinionated beliefs, his supreme judgment of others, and his desire for control - I don't see Jim Bob as the only non-negotiator in the family.

Also strangely enough Derrick reminded me of JimBob when I was watching a YouTube video about a date. Derrick was cryptically bragging - to his children - about how much sex he had. Jim Bob loves to do that too. Ick.

[Lady Jane]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:58 AM, SMama said:

According to someone in the gallery (get your pound of salt ready) while Derick brought his note pad everyday he/she never saw him take notes. 

My old lady lawyer heart was in a very "bless his heart" place with Derrick showing up with the same folio that every first year lawyer thinks that makes them look like a grown-up lawyer. In truth, it makes him look like a baby lawyer. 

While he may not have been taking notes in his fancy law school graduation gift folio, I appreciate his instinct to bring a notepad just in case. I haven't practiced in years, but after a long career I'm incapable of surviving without a notepad at hand (regular sized--lawyers don't actually use legal pads in my experience!). I can't NOT take notes--I seriously take notes during my therapy sessions, which naturally struck my therapist as utterly bizarre.

There's a mountain of things I find repellent about Derrick, but he showed up for Jill. 

Jill looked like a total badass, and her hair was awesome! Her confidence has gone through the roof (relatively) and that most of all must infuriate JB. Loss of control is his worst nightmare. 

The schadenfreude of watching this shit show burn to the ground is even better than I thought it would be! 

ETA: third generation cultists like this already tend to leave, and Derrick and Jill are giving their kids a much more solid foundation of education and distance, and that can only contribute to their kids escaping. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Lady Jane
I forget stuff

[awaken]

9 hours ago, lascuba said:

while forgetting the fact that his an international god-bothering bigot who's never made a single acknowledgement of his wrongs. 

Jokes on him, I have a long memory and I can hate multiple fundies at once. The enemy of my enemy might be convenient, but he's not my friend. 

Ha, I love that!  Derrick the international god bothering bigot. Creates such a mental picture!  

[MargeGunderson]

6 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

I guess I have a bit of a different take, but I take Derick's statement about Jim Bob's actions being "akin to human trafficking" as a dig about getting the grown married kids to appear on Counting On, and pocketing all the money.  Essentially he was profiting from their work.  YMMV, of course.

I don't agree with Derick on many things, but he has been supportive of Jill, and I have to admire them for breaking away. It could not have been an easy thing to do.

So, Jim Boob is a pimp. That tracks.

[CountryGirl]

I am kind of wanting to take a trip to Arkansas, just to give Derrick one of these:

Yes, he has shown some problematic behavior/views, but I am one that does see progress. His championing of his wife, whom it's clear he loves dearly, especially during a trial that had to be awful to sit through, has made me sit up and take notice.

As I've said before, most people are capable of change. Derrick and Jill have made strides in the past decade. Who knows what another 10-20 years will bring. Their actions of late, their choosing to send Izzy to a public school where they know he will be exposed to all points of view especially cannot be overestimated. 

I am also DYING that Boob is the one who arranged for Derrick to meet Jill in the first place. Oh, the irony of that.

It's probably the only good thing Boob has ever done for Jill her entire life.

[Ohiopirate02]

Derick not wrong using the words human trafficking to describe what JB did with his kids and the TV show.  We are conditioned to hear the words human trafficking and immediately think sex work, but it is also used to describe forced labor.  I have only heard it used when talking about migrant workers who's passports are confiscated and then they are forced to work out in the fields in order to get them back.  It does make me wonder if the adult Duggarlings have possession of their identifying documents like birth certificates and SS cards or if JB has possession of them.  If JB has them, then it makes it even harder for any of the adult kids to escape.  You can't get a real job without showing them to your employer.  

[merylinkid]

Having worked in the anti-trafficking field, Derick's statement is probably spot on.   It's not forcing the kids to film the show and keeping the money.   It's ALL the manipulation and control.   Sure, you can have jobs, WHERE I SAY and while your life necessities may be taken care of, you will have no money to call your own.   No way to save up so you can escape.    Sure here's a house, on MY PROPERTY, you will move when I say, and you might not pay rent, but I expect labor out of you.   Which of course goes into my pocket to pay off your "debt."   

It's the whole HEADSHIP thing.   

Derick might not be as open minded as folks would like, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about JB.   

Also everyone saying where was he YEARS ago, well, you don't know what you would do in that situation either.    Maybe Jill was begging him not to, because she still wants a relationship with her siblings.   Or maybe until the trial, he didn't realize the EXTENT of the manipulation.   Remember, manipulators are really good at making you doubt what your own brain is telling you.   Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to manipulate you.   it took someone else pointing out in dry facts only fashion to see exactly how much JB manipulating things.   Or you know, maybe it was the Judge telling JB he doesn't always get to decide what is allowed and what is not for someone to finally have that realization that JB is not always right.  

 

[madpsych78]

No complaints from me on the timing of Derick's post. In a sense, he was a victim as well of Boob. Why is it OK for female victims of abuse to take their time and speak out when they are ready, but we expect male victims to speak up as quickly as possible and chide them for not speaking up earlier? I realize that his victimization is not to the extent of the actual offspring, but he was there by extension. And let's put it this way: He's the only one (first one?) to speak out. Jeremy and Austin kind of did their own things quietly, whereas Ben is clearly still under Boob's thumb.  

[Tuxcat]

8 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

t's the whole HEADSHIP thing.   

Derick might not be as open minded as folks would like, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about JB.

The whole headship thing. This is why I am not supportive of Derrick. I would be much more in favor of Jill doing the speaking - on her own behalf. Jill seems to have transferred from one highly opinionated, judgmental and controlling person to another highly opinionated, judgmental and controlling person. Just because Derrick is right about JB doesn't mean that he is handling the dynamics properly and in the best interest of his family.  Jill is stuck in the middle - fairly silent - separate from people she once did love. Going from one "this is the right way to live" to another "this is the right way to live." Is she pursuing what she wants in life? Or what Derrick wants?  Great, public school in Arkansas. Okay a win maybe? But is that all we have to go on? I don't excuse past deeply prejudicial and problematic behavior just because someone posts on social media about JB.  What happens if Izzy is gay?  While I agree with Derrick's views on JB, I don't agree with his continued judgment and patriarchal mentality nor do I agree with his desire to use social media to deepen Jill's divide. But I would be all for Jill doing it.

 

6 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

n a sense, he was a victim as well of Boob.

He was 25 when they married. Though lied to and perhaps not savvy enough to read the contracts, I wouldn't equate what happened to him with what happened to the girls. 

[merylinkid]

7 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

. I would be much more in favor of Jill doing the speakin

Maybe Jill doesn't want to be the one speaking up?    Maybe she just wants to keep that part private?   Or she knows because he is better educated, he can say it better than she can.   Or who knows?   But to assume he is speaking up because HE is in charge now and Jill better go along with it is assuming facts not in evidence.   

Just because it is not the way one person would do it, does not make it wrong.   

[Tuxcat]

2 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Maybe Jill doesn't want to be the one speaking up?    Maybe she just wants to keep that part private?   Or she knows because he is better educated, he can say it better than she can.   Or who knows?   But to assume he is speaking up because HE is in charge now and Jill better go along with it is assuming facts not in evidence.   

Just because it is not the way one person would do it, does not make it wrong.   

Isn't the point that we don't know? either way.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Tuxcat

[Tikichick]

To the point of Derrick initially participating in the show and now possibly equating that and other control by JB akin to human trafficking I think it should be considered that Derrick's initial approach to the family was to have a relationship with JB, as a prayer partner and spiritual mentor.  He probably accepted the explanation of the show being about ministry for quite a period of time before any niggling doubts wouldn't be quiet anymore.   No doubt months of being in JB's immediate presence and the explosive revelations of Josh's abuse of his sisters and JB's failure to address it appropriately probably really triggered alarms until Derrick couldn't quiet them all anymore and probably began asking questions.

No doubt JB followed Michelle's example and spoke very sweetly when he patiently and truthfully answered all of Derrick's questions.   

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

No complaints from me on the timing of Derick's post. In a sense, he was a victim as well of Boob. Why is it OK for female victims of abuse to take their time and speak out when they are ready, but we expect male victims to speak up as quickly as possible and chide them for not speaking up earlier? I realize that his victimization is not to the extent of the actual offspring, but he was there by extension. And let's put it this way: He's the only one (first one?) to speak out. Jeremy and Austin kind of did their own things quietly, whereas Ben is clearly still under Boob's thumb.  

I'm not a Derick-hater either, nor do I lionize him. I see him as a work in progress, and that can be messy. And, just for the record, I realize he - and Jill - hold opinions on religion, society, and politics, that I disagree with (to say the least). If my criteria for being interested in these survivors of a TLC freak show included agreeing with all their beliefs I'd not be here at all. Maybe it's easier for me because I come from a state next door to Arkansas and have a busload (literally) of Southern Baptist relatives. Mainstream and not fundie, but I know not to expect any Duggar or adjacent to be IMO enlightened on this stuff. 

And, they're evangelical Christians. Fundie or mainstream, a bedrock belief of evangelicals is that they have a duty to preach the gospel. They really can't "live and let live" when it comes to religion. They are SUPPOSED to spread the Word and save souls for Jesus. Some of them take it so seriously they are always up in your grill talking about Jesus - even to Daniel in the laundromat to use a famous example. Most of the mainstream ones, in my experience, aren't like that. Which is why they donate to support missionaries - salves their conscience that they aren't personally trying to convert people all the time, by supporting others to do that. (My cynical view, just saying.)

Of course the way Derick "handled" things in his life including his relationship with JB, wasn't ideal. But maybe he did the best he could at the time. TBH I can't imagine a scenario in which breaking away from her parents' control would not be painful and difficult for Jill. With or without a husband at her side, even if the husband was more mature than Derick with a different psychological/emotional makeup. And in that hypothetical case, would such a man be interested in JB or any of his daughters in the first place? I doubt it.

I think Derick fell for JB when he was a lonely guy going through a religious fervor phase, sitting at his laptop in Nepal, with a new accounting degree and a desire to become a Southern Baptist missionary. His dad had died suddenly a few years before and his mother was being treated for cancer. Somehow he fell for JB and dived into the fundie world. I really think he was ignorant of what a fundie world he was getting into when he linked up with JB and then with Jill. I think he saw a big wholesome family with the right kind of religion, and jumped in. For instance, after they married he was still talking about both of them becoming accredited missionaries (with the SBC's international missions board) which turned out not to be possible because he'd badly overestimated Jill's level of education.

Somehow over these turbulent years that followed, Derick and Jill have arrived at a life that seems healthier than what they started with. I don't think I'm being deceived in this opinion by Jill having become a master manipulator of social media. I think they're in a healthier life because a few years ago, Izzy's pics and videos on SM started showing a much more relaxed little kid. Jill and Derick also started looking and acting less tense. If she can fake that, she needs to start professionally making films for big bucks.

 I don't know why it's Derick making those recent SM posts and not Jill. I don't assume it's because she's under his thumb the way she was under JB's. I give her, and Derick, more respect than that. They did issue a joint statement after Josh's conviction, and again I am not going to assume Derick forced Jill to do that. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Jeeves

[GeeGolly]

I would hardly call Derick a victim of JB. He has a shitty FIL. A FIL who apparently lied to him and yelled at him. Not a victim in my book.

[CountryGirl]

19 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Maybe Jill doesn't want to be the one speaking up?    Maybe she just wants to keep that part private?   Or she knows because he is better educated, he can say it better than she can.   Or who knows?   But to assume he is speaking up because HE is in charge now and Jill better go along with it is assuming facts not in evidence.   

Just because it is not the way one person would do it, does not make it wrong.   

The videos that Jill has posted where she is doing most of the talking while Derrick occasionally chimes in and she even interrupts him at times (as married couples tend to do) and it's normal and fine and there isn't him just talking the whole time while she stares at him with the worshipful zombie headship gaze is tangible evidence, for me, that while in the early days of their relationship (when the headship gaze was on display and not just for Derrick, but for Daddy Boob's approval - never forget that), there might have been a bit of transference, I do not see that this is the case today. Jill's actions to distance herself from her toxic family (namely her parents as well as no longer golden child inmate), which include going against the decree of home-schooling by sending Izzy to public school, lend credence to Jill having more agency. Agency that means JILL can decide when and where and how SHE wants to speak up. If that is by her, directly, or through Derrick, that is HER choice.

[Jeeves]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I would hardly call Derick a victim of JB. He has a shitty FIL. A FIL who apparently lied to him and yelled at him. Not a victim in my book.

Oh, I'm not saying Derick was a victim of JB. But I do think he came across JB when he (Derick) was vulnerable and susceptible to getting swept up into JB's world, and that JB played him to some degree. Including lies and whatever manipulation would work, because IMO lies and manipulation are part of JB's way of dealing with the world and especially with his family. 

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Oh, I'm not saying Derick was a victim of JB. But I do think he came across JB when he (Derick) was vulnerable and susceptible to getting swept up into JB's world, and that JB played him to some degree. Including lies and whatever manipulation would work, because IMO lies and manipulation are part of JB's way of dealing with the world and especially with his family. 

I didn't mean to imply you said Derick was a victim, I think it was mentioned upthread somewhere.

I agree JB treated Derick poorly. I would agree that it sucks for Derick that JB is who JB is. Derick has the right to speak up and push back in regard to the way JB has treated him, and kudos to him for doing that.

Though IMO, vulnerable or not, Derick was a grown man when he met JB. He had attended college and spent a year alone in Nepal. And it seems he started to figure out JB within a couple of years of meeting him. I can't drum up a lot of sympathy for Derick because he has a shitty FIL.

[Gemma Violet]

35 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

The videos that Jill has posted where she is doing most of the talking while Derrick occasionally chimes in and she even interrupts him at times (as married couples tend to do) and it's normal and fine and there isn't him just talking the whole time while she stares at him with the worshipful zombie headship gaze is tangible evidence, 

I was just coming to post this.  Anyone who hasn't seen those videos should give them a look.  One thing I especially remember in one of the videos is their disagreement on how old the earth is.  Jill has the fundy outlook that it's only 6,000 years old.  Derick, of course, being an educated man, disagrees.  They talk about it matter-of-factly, that this is one of the things they disagree on and that's OK.  If Derick was an overbearing tyrant, no way would he allow her to think that.  He would insist that Jill see his point of view.  Instead, his attitude is "We'll agree to disagree."

[Tuxcat]

57 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Derrick's initial approach to the family was to have a relationship with JB, as a prayer partner and spiritual mentor. 

Did we ever find out how that relationship actually started? 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Tuxcat

[SMama]

6 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Did we ever find out how that relationship started? 

I somehow have the impression that it was Cathy who contacted JB about becoming Derick’s prayer partner, at Derick’s request. Later someone stated here that in that context a PP also contributes financial help to a missionary. I know nothing about missions and will take it at face value. 

[Zella]

I actually understand why Derick would have been drawn to Jim Bob's world, but the self-serving lies he told on his way out will always make him an untrustworthy little shit weasel to me. 

[lascuba]

56 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I'm not a Derick-hater either, nor do I lionize him. I see him as a work in progress, and that can be messy. And, just for the record, I realize he - and Jill - hold opinions on religion, society, and politics, that I disagree with (to say the least). If my criteria for being interested in these survivors of a TLC freak show included agreeing with all their beliefs I'd not be here at all. Maybe it's easier for me because I come from a state next door to Arkansas and have a busload (literally) of Southern Baptist relatives. Mainstream and not fundie, but I know not to expect any Duggar or adjacent to be IMO enlightened on this stuff. 

And, they're evangelical Christians. Fundie or mainstream, a bedrock belief of evangelicals is that they have a duty to preach the gospel. They really can't "live and let live" when it comes to religion. They are SUPPOSED to spread the Word and save souls for Jesus. Some of them take it so seriously they are always up in your grill talking about Jesus - even to Daniel in the laundromat to use a famous example. Most of the mainstream ones, in my experience, aren't like that. Which is why they donate to support missionaries - salves their conscience that they aren't personally trying to convert people all the time, by supporting others to do that. (My cynical view, just saying.)

Of course the way Derick "handled" things in his life including his relationship with JB, wasn't ideal. But maybe he did the best he could at the time. TBH I can't imagine a scenario in which breaking away from her parents' control would not be painful and difficult for Jill. With or without a husband at her side, even if the husband was more mature than Derick with a different psychological/emotional makeup. And in that hypothetical case, would such a man be interested in JB or any of his daughters in the first place? I doubt it.

I think Derick fell for JB when he was a lonely guy going through a religious fervor phase, sitting at his laptop in Nepal, with a new accounting degree and a desire to become a Southern Baptist missionary. His dad had died suddenly a few years before and his mother was being treated for cancer. Somehow he fell for JB and dived into the fundie world. I really think he was ignorant of what a fundie world he was getting into when he linked up with JB and then with Jill. I think he saw a big wholesome family with the right kind of religion, and jumped in. For instance, after they married he was still talking about both of them becoming accredited missionaries (with the SBC's international missions board) which turned out not to be possible because he'd badly overestimated Jill's level of education.

Somehow over these turbulent years that followed, Derick and Jill have arrived at a life that seems healthier than what they started with. I don't think I'm being deceived in this opinion by Jill having become a master manipulator of social media. I think they're in a healthier life because a few years ago, Izzy's pics and videos on SM started showing a much more relaxed little kid. Jill and Derick also started looking and acting less tense. If she can fake that, she needs to start professionally making films for big bucks.

 I don't know why it's Derick making those recent SM posts and not Jill. I don't assume it's because she's under his thumb the way she was under JB's. I give her, and Derick, more respect than that. They did issue a joint statement after Josh's conviction, and again I am not going to assume Derick forced Jill to do that. 

But then why is the onus on the rest of us to "live and let live" in regards to people like them? It's condescending to essentially say, "poor dears just don't know any better." Worst yet, it's naive, because while the rest of the world gives them a pass and has infinite patience because  they just "can't" let people live their lives, they are very much taking advantage of that naivete to push more extreme agendas. If they've been taught all their lives that they have to preach their religion to everyone no matter what, well, they need to be disabused of that notion early and often. 

I have the complete opposite experience from you, in that I grew up in communities that were culturally Catholic but not religious. Evangelicals were always rightfully seen as killjoys who want to interfere in people's lives and generally make the world more unpleasant. I can't view their nonsense as harmless. 

4 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Did we ever find out how that relationship actually started? 

Derick contacted JB to be his prayer partner. JB and Michelle are very weirdly open and responsive to stranger that contact them, so JB wrote back and the rest is fundie history. 

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

I actually understand why Derick would have been drawn to Jim Bob's world, but the self-serving lies he told on his way out will always make him an untrustworthy little shit weasel to me. 

Right, he's so focused on every way JB wronged him and spends zero time acknowledging his own shittiness. He makes the same excuses for himself that JB does. 

[Jeeves]

1 minute ago, lascuba said:

But then why is the onus on the rest of us to "live and let live" in regards to people like them? It's condescending to essentially say, "poor dears just don't know any better." Worst yet, it's naive, because while the rest of the world gives them a pass and has infinite patience because  they just "can't" let people live their lives, they are very much taking advantage of that naivete to push more extreme agendas. If they've been taught all their lives that they have to preach their religion to everyone no matter what, well, they need to be disabused of that notion early and often. 

I have the complete opposite experience from you, in that I grew up in communities that were culturally Catholic but not religious. Evangelicals were always rightfully seen as killjoys who want to interfere in people's lives and generally make the world more unpleasant. I can't view their nonsense as harmless. 

I don't recall saying that anybody has to like or tolerate the Duggars. I haven't criticized anyone for their opinions of any of the Duggars, whether it's love or hate, or complained that people haven't been fair in their opinions. I don't know if "the rest of the world gives them a pass and has infinite patience" with them. I'm not that well-informed on how the rest of the world thinks. 

I'm just stating my view of them - which of course everyone is free to ignore, ridicule, or disagree with. It appears to be different from your opinion, and that's cool. Have a nice day.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Right, he's so focused on every way JB wronged him and spends zero time acknowledging his own shittiness. He makes the same excuses for himself that JB does. 

I know people are probably sick of me commenting on it, but his whole "we had a contract until we didn't have a contract" shtick was just too much for me. Also his "TLC fired me--actually I quit." Well, which is it, bitch? He just simply has no credibility to me. 

[Tuxcat]

I suppose some see things one way and some see them the other. That's okay. The reality is that we don't really know anything for sure. I did see Derrick attacking a teenager and another gay couple on social media. I've seen him impose his views and his way on others with very little room to listen and consider other perspectives. I have seen him believe and profess to believe that his way is the only right way. Perhaps I should not factor that in to my analysis. I don't use social media posts/manipulation "look at us, click on us, follow us" posts  and YouTube created/edited/curated videos as tangible evidence in whether a life or wife for that matter is happy.  I can accept that I don't know the inner workings of their relationship. I don't think any of us really do. Only Jill knows if she is fulfilled. Jessa and Jill both have husbands that "allow" them to speak - but that doesn't mean they aren't living in a patriarchal system.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I know people are probably sick of me commenting on it, but his whole "we had a contract until we didn't have a contract" shtick was just too much for me. Also his "TLC fired me--actually I quit." Well, which is it, bitch? He just simply has no credibility to me. 

I still chuckle at him trying to say he has been working since he was 5 and that Jill has more education than her critics.  Dude just does not have it in him to take the L and move on.  The best thing to happen to him these last few years was going back to school and not having the time anymore to be on Twitter.  He needs to start studying for the bar again and get off of social media.

[lascuba]

4 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I don't recall saying that anybody has to like or tolerate the Duggars. I haven't criticized anyone for their opinions of any of the Duggars, whether it's love or hate, or complained that people haven't been fair in their opinions. I don't know if "the rest of the world gives them a pass and has infinite patience" with them. I'm not that well-informed on how the rest of the world thinks. 

I'm just stating my view of them - which of course everyone is free to ignore, ridicule, or disagree with. It appears to be different from your opinion, and that's cool. Have a nice day.

I'm not saying you said that, I'm saying that I disagree with the argument that people should understand that they just "can't live and let live" because of what they've been taught. 

And...I know that you're stating your view of them? And I'm stating mine? I thought that was the point of these forums. Sorry if that offended you.

8 minutes ago, Zella said:

I know people are probably sick of me commenting on it, but his whole "we had a contract until we didn't have a contract" shtick was just too much for me. Also his "TLC fired me--actually I quit." Well, which is it, bitch? He just simply has no credibility to me. 

Even I would give him credit for stating the ways that he's been wrong that isn't just some version of, "I was manipulated by JB." 

[Jeeves]

6 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I'm not saying you said that, I'm saying that I disagree with the argument that people should understand that they just "can't live and let live" because of what they've been taught. 

And...I know that you're stating your view of them? And I'm stating mine? I thought that was the point of these forums. Sorry if that offended you.

Well, you quoted my post and then replied to it with those comments - so I took your complaints as directed at me. And, no I don't get offended by discussions of the Duggars, so no worries.

[CountryGirl]

3 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Oh, I'm not saying Derick was a victim of JB. But I do think he came across JB when he (Derick) was vulnerable and susceptible to getting swept up into JB's world, and that JB played him to some degree. Including lies and whatever manipulation would work, because IMO lies and manipulation are part of JB's way of dealing with the world and especially with his family. 

Nodding along to this.  Reaching the age of maturity and inability to be a victim are not mutually exclusive. I think grown adult or not, Derick was vulnerable and trusting of Boob (his one-time spiritual advisor long before he was his FIL). That having said, I won't go so far as to call Derick a victim as I want to be mindful with throwing that around, but it is clear he was taken advantage of. Then you add in the Jill factor, who was absolutely a victim and would be under Boob's thumb to this very day if she and Derick hadn't seen the light and distanced themselves.

I can still be pissed at him for some of the absolutely wrong things he has said in the past but also keep an open mind where his growth and Jill's and anyone else's that came from the Cult of Toxicity are concerned. I mean, I would be a hypocrite if I held others to their words and actions of their past and not cared a tinker's dam if they have taken actions to grown and change and maybe find some redemption as I have said and done some things that I absolutely regret and have remorse for (some as part of my own healing as a CSA survivor). Now, there are some actions and some people (looking at you, inmate) that I don't know if I believe can ever truly be redeemed, but ultimately, that's not up to me to determine but a higher power (which I know MMV there). 

[Tikichick]

Personally I've always looked at much of what Derrick spewed previously in regards to leaving the show as part of lashing out like the proverbial woman scorned due to his painful disillusionment about his relationship with JB.   I actually suspect it meant something very deep to Derrick and he was absolutely thrown for a complete loop when it was destroyed.

Having an opinion about why he might have lashed out is different from seeing him as a victim, thinking it redeems his horrible viewpoints or being his fan.   Mostly because he's a parent of two young and impressionable kids I hold out hope that Derrick has grown up and away from some of the hideous comments he's made about various things. 

[Valerie]

I was surprised when Jill and Derick said they would use the preferred pronouns if they knew someone was trans. I mean, it's the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM if you're transphobic, but... baby fucking steps. 

[MMEButterfly]

5 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

The whole headship thing. This is why I am not supportive of Derrick. I would be much more in favor of Jill doing the speaking - on her own behalf. Jill seems to have transferred from one highly opinionated, judgmental and controlling person to another highly opinionated, judgmental and controlling person. Just because Derrick is right about JB doesn't mean that he is handling the dynamics properly and in the best interest of his family.  Jill is stuck in the middle - fairly silent - separate from people she once did love. Going from one "this is the right way to live" to another "this is the right way to live." Is she pursuing what she wants in life? Or what Derrick wants?  Great, public school in Arkansas. Okay a win maybe? But is that all we have to go on? I don't excuse past deeply prejudicial and problematic behavior just because someone posts on social media about JB.  What happens if Izzy is gay?  While I agree with Derrick's views on JB, I don't agree with his continued judgment and patriarchal mentality nor do I agree with his desire to use social media to deepen Jill's divide. But I would be all for Jill doing it.

 

He was 25 when they married. Though lied to and perhaps not savvy enough to read the contracts, I wouldn't equate what happened to him with what happened to the girls. 

The fact Jill (probably) wanted Derrick to speak for her isn't necessarily a matter of his exerting headship. When I was Jill's age and was victim of criminal behavior (no physical damage to me), I was happy to have my husband handle the situation. I was pregnant at the time and shaken by the incident. As it happens my husband was already a practicing lawyer and an assistant DA, that helped even more. In this case, I don't see blaming Derrick nor Jill for how this played out. 

[jschoolgirl]

7 minutes ago, Valerie said:

I was surprised when Jill and Derick said they would use the preferred pronouns if they knew someone was trans. I mean, it's the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM if you're transphobic, but... baby fucking steps. 

When and where did they say this?

[Valerie]

6 minutes ago, jschoolgirl said:

When and where did they say this?

It was one of the videos on their YouTube channel. I think one of the Q&A ones.

At 17:15. Like I said, tiny baby steps. Having the decency to at least respect someone's pronouns is a lot more than many others would do.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Valerie

[Tuxcat]

27 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

The fact Jill (probably) wanted Derrick to speak for her isn't necessarily a matter of his exerting headship. When I was Jill's age and was victim of criminal behavior (no physical damage to me), I was happy to have my husband handle the situation. I was pregnant at the time and shaken by the incident. As it happens my husband was already a practicing lawyer and an assistant DA, that helped even more. In this case, I don't see blaming Derrick nor Jill for how this played out. 

Issue a statement. Post an essay. Support your position. Yes of course. Be a needling, jabbing, ranting cryptic social media gnat that never stops pecking away at their enemy-  who happens to now be your father and mother? I don't really see her directing that but again, my interpretation is based upon the past Derrick. If she's all for it - so be it. No idea.

[mynextmistake]

I think that people who claim all of Derick and Jill’s changes are just surface changes to make them more palatable to social media perhaps underestimate the degree to which those changes reflect a repudiation of Jill’s upbringing and the Duggars’ fundamental belief system.

Homeschooling, eschewing birth control, long hair and long skirts for women, not watching TV or listening to secular music, running your own business and attending only home churches aren’t just cosmetic aspects of Gothardism, they’re fundamental tenets. Gothard, like most cult leaders, seems to have realized that impoverished and poorly-educated people make the best disciples. Homeschooling your kids, marrying them off young, and insisting they have as many children as possible while forbidding them from working for anyone except themselves is a recipe for keeping them in the fold. Sure, they might have doubts eventually, but when they’re already in their thirties with a (functionally) sixth-grade education and eight kids to support, their only work history is helping out at their dad’s lawn-care business or car lot, and their only connections are either family members or five other families who go to church in the same garage as they do, what are they going to do? Where are they going to go? They’re stuck. And, IME, there’s nothing like being stuck in a shitty situation to help you convince yourself your situation isn’t really that shitty. People don’t want to be failures. They don’t want to be trapped. So they convince themselves they’re doing it all for Jesus, and raise their kids exactly the same way, so you get a nice, self-sustaining population of fundies.

Derick and Jill have taken virtually all these tenets and turned them on their heads. They go to a large, mainstream SB church! They have friends! Jill wears pants and cuts her hair! They send their kids to public school! They use birth control! Derick has gotten an education and trained (yes, the bar was unfortunate, but he can take it again) for a career! Are they still conservative Christians? Yep. Have they made HUGE strides from where JB and Michelle wanted them to end up? Also yep. The changes they’ve made may seem “cosmetic” to some of us, but I think they’re very, very significant when you consider what they mean.

[Lady Whistleup]

I think there's a particularly toxic aspect of social media nowadays that thinks that people are incapable of change and must be canceled forever after one transgression. Thus, you have people harassing and sending death threats to 15 year old figure skaters for things they supposedly said or didn't say and thinking that's okay.

I prefer to see the changes Jill has made to make her OWN life better and be happy for her instead of harping on something she said 5 or 10 years ago. Derick too.

I know she and I will probably never agree politically, or about religion. That's okay. She's taking steps to make her own life better.

I also don't think people who like Jill should be bullied in this forum. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Lady Whistleup

[MsJamieDornan]

10 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I'm just stating my view of them - which of course everyone is free to ignore, ridicule, or disagree with. It appears to be different from your opinion, and that's cool. Have a nice day.

I think you have very intelligent views and opinions, well thought out. Thank you

[Suzn]

In a time when things are increasingly polarized, this and other Duggar forums seem to be becoming more polarized.  For my mental health, I think I may have to take a break from reading here, much less posting anything.

[Tuxcat]

5 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

Homeschooling, eschewing birth control, long hair and long skirts for women, not watching TV or listening to secular music, running your own business and attending only home churches aren’t just cosmetic aspects of Gothardism, they’re fundamental tenets

From what I have seen many of the Duggar girls are evolving away from these tenets- not just Jill. Even Jana is wearing pants these days. Mind bend exercise purely to help me frame my own mind- what is the difference between Jeremy/Jinger and Derrick/Jill?   

[emmawoodhouse]

Two hours between CA and AR. 

[Snow Fairy]

1 hour ago, Tuxcat said:

Mind bend exercise purely to help me frame my own mind- what is the difference between Jeremy/Jinger and Derrick/Jill?   

For me, Jinger is just Jeremy's figure. We don't see her doing something remotely interesting, and it's all about Jeremy.

Jill has her own voice and her own things

[GeeGolly]

If we look at the Bates family, their daughters came out of the gates swinging. It didn't take much at all for most of them to drop many of the Gothardisms, and actually, even though Gil is still very much a part of it all, he and Kelly seemed to have left some of the bullshit behind too.

And then there's Jinger - she wears pants/shorts, she cuts her hair and she practiced(es) birth control.

The only real difference I see between Jill and Jinger and the Bates sisters is Jill has a husband who doesn't like JB.

[lascuba]

Good grief, they said they'd use a Trans person's pronouns if they were in a Trans person's home. That's not baby steps towards anything except making themselves look better while not actually changing anything.