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Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!


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12 minutes ago, quarks said:

1. We don't know how narrow Jill's testimony might or might not be. Bobye Holt's testimony was fairly broad. 

2. But if she testifies - and we don't know that she will - any testimony related to whether or not Josh molested her is going to have to include an explanation of what Josh did. She can't just say, "Yep, he molested me," full stop. She has to explain what he did so that the jury can determine whether or not this was molestation and if this was the sort of molestation that might indicate a propensity for downloading CSA material - thus increasing the chances that he'll be found guilty and punished for that crime.

3. We do know that she will be facing her predator. She'll be in the witness stand. He'll be at the defense table.

4. We also know that she is a plaintiff in the civil case that starts up in less than two weeks, with the same presiding judge, and that as a plaintiff, she will probably have to testify about the effects of the In Touch article on her - but without facing Josh, who is the entire reason why In Touch had anything to report in the first place.

And if Jill has unresolved trauma do you think the points you bring up will empower Jill?

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While it will not be remotely easy for Jill to testify, given the circumstances, I think there could be something very empowering for her to face her abuser (molester is somehow too light a word IMO) and look him in the eye and go on the legal record as to what he did.

I never got the chance as my abuser died when I was still in my teens. But I wish I had been afforded the opportunity. It would have been very healing for me. 

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27 minutes ago, quarks said:

1. We don't know how narrow Jill's testimony might or might not be. Bobye Holt's testimony was fairly broad. 

2. But if she testifies - and we don't know that she will - any testimony related to whether or not Josh molested her is going to have to include an explanation of what Josh did. She can't just say, "Yep, he molested me," full stop. She has to explain what he did so that the jury can determine whether or not this was molestation and if this was the sort of molestation that might indicate a propensity for downloading CSA material - thus increasing the chances that he'll be found guilty and punished for that crime.

3. We do know that she will be facing her predator. She'll be in the witness stand. He'll be at the defense table.

4. We also know that she is a plaintiff in the civil case that starts up in less than two weeks, with the same presiding judge, and that as a plaintiff, she will probably have to testify about the effects of the In Touch article on her - but without facing Josh, who is the entire reason why In Touch had anything to report in the first place.

 

 

I think it's very likely -- or almost certain -- that JB has made every effort to prep Jill's testimony.

Even if he's been expressly forbidden to do so by the judge, or warned to stay away by the defense lawyers. JB is way too controlling to allow Jill to appear as a witness without scripting her story (as told to him by Jesus). I would also bet that he's dangled a whole host of prizes in front of her: return to unsupervised visits to the TTH, cars, money, etc.

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16 minutes ago, SMama said:

Jill has Derick, Cathy, Amy, and Deanna as emotional support. I seriously doubt JB will get anywhere near Jill, she won’t permit it. Then there’s that pesky jury tampering thing. We tend to give JB powers he’s never possessed. He did get bitch slapped by the judge yesterday. Some people were predicting JB was running the defense. He is an insignificant, ignorant, arrogant nobody.

I hope Deanna is serving in a role that aunties serve in my family.  Many of them were like 2nd mothers to me, and I serve in that role to some of my nieces currently.  I'm sure Jill could use some motherly love, support, and wisdom right now, and Lord knows she isn't receiving from her actual...you know...mother.  Ugh.

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1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

And if Jill has unresolved trauma do you think the points you bring up will empower Jill?

This is shifting the goalposts, since that wasn't the argument I was making or the argument I was responding to.

But since the goalposts have been shifted, rather than retyping my points yet again, I'll instead note that thanks to her terrible parents and Arkansas law, this is the first time Jill has had a chance to face her predator in court, and ask this:

How empowering or traumatizing will it be for Jill if she doesn't testify - and Josh is found not guilty, and released back into society?

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17 hours ago, CalicoKitty said:

She needs to cut 2 feet off to complete the look.  Then she would look great.

I think the length is fine. She has cut it much shorter, so she knows what it looks like on her and apparently prefers the longer hair. This length is really popular, not just with fundy xtians, but with a lot of SM personalities and even young women attending my college. 

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I have to add my two cents.  Jill's hair just looks messy to me and the color makes her complexion look florid - and there is that big gummy smile.

Most important of all, Jill is the same old Jill and no matter what she does superficially, she remains the same.  She gets lots of praise for the superficial changes.

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I’d love to see a tape of Jessa standing in front of the bathroom mirror pointing to herself saying “I’m the pretty one, but I’m the pretty one” after seeing Jill’s picture. 
 

 

Edited by Kiss my mutt
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2 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I’d love to see a tape of Jessa standing in front of the bathroom mirror pointing to herself saying “I’m the pretty one, but I’m the pretty one” after seeing Jill’s picture. 
 

 

Haha, Jessa was the HOT one. Emphasis on WAS. 😁

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3 hours ago, quarks said:

This is shifting the goalposts, since that wasn't the argument I was making or the argument I was responding to.

But since the goalposts have been shifted, rather than retyping my points yet again, I'll instead note that thanks to her terrible parents and Arkansas law, this is the first time Jill has had a chance to face her predator in court, and ask this:

How empowering or traumatizing will it be for Jill if she doesn't testify - and Josh is found not guilty, and released back into society?

This is from my original post -

With that said, if Jill does have any residual or compartmentalized feelings from the molestations, testifying has the potential to cause more harm than good. Being a witness in this trial to say yes, Josh molested me and my sisters is not putting Jill in control of her narrative. Jill will not be asked any questions on how the molestations affected her or her sisters. She will only be asked if it happened.

This is from my follow-up post -

As far as control of her narrative, your right she has none now. But it has been speculated that by testifying Jill will then be in control. That her testimony will be a powerful and therapeutic move. Its my opinion, if Jill does have unresolved trauma, her testimony will possibly open a place she's not ready to open. She could experience emotional flooding/shock.

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1 hour ago, Suzn said:

As I said, lots of praise...  I hope this doesn't become a place where criticism is squelched.

Those of us who don't think Jill has changed her true nature, simply her public, documented behavior, aren't going anywhere.  And will continue to politely say what we think.  

True personal evolution takes a lot longer than the time Jill's been wearing jeans and had a nose ring.  If Derrick wanted Israel out of public school, he'd be gone.  If Derrick wanted to move to Oklahoma, they'd be gone.  If Derrick wanted her to dye her hair pink, get a buzz cut and a tattoo of The Rock on her ass, that's what she'd do. 

She continues to do what she's told.  By whatever man is there to take charge.  

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54 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Jill posted this video of her new hair on her Instagram.  I think it's significant that she chose the song It's Magic.  Aren't the Duggars (and many fundies) against anything being considered "magic?"  Maybe this is another FU to JB. 😊

https://www.instagram.com/p/CW83WG4t2qC/

I noticed and thought the same thing.  I wondered if she asked her hair stylist for song recommendations. 

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I am a lurker and trying to understand what in the world is happening right now. I was always a bit jealous that there were so many siblings and some of them appeared to be so close, something I do not have in my life. am I to understand that at this time Jill does not have a relationship with any of her siblings? No matter how crazy I think the family is if true that must be hard. Does she have a relationship with her parents or have they just basically disowned her? Why is she the only sister on the witness list, anyone have any idea? 

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1 minute ago, NoThyme said:

I am a lurker and trying to understand what in the world is happening right now. I was always a bit jealous that there were so many siblings and some of them appeared to be so close, something I do not have in my life. am I to understand that at this time Jill does not have a relationship with any of her siblings? No matter how crazy I think the family is if true that must be hard. Does she have a relationship with her parents or have they just basically disowned her? Why is she the only sister on the witness list, anyone have any idea? 

Unfortunately we all have ideas on what happened, but they vary widely. The truth is, no one knows anything other than JB is pissed at Derick and Derick was/is pissed at JB.

Jill has been seen with all her sisters, here and there, over the last few years. She has also been seen with Michelle and some SsIL. Her buddy brother (James?) seems close to both of them. I have no idea about the other brothers.

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13 minutes ago, NoThyme said:

am I to understand that at this time Jill does not have a relationship with any of her siblings? No matter how crazy I think the family is if true that must be hard. Does she have a relationship with her parents or have they just basically disowned her? Why is she the only sister on the witness list, anyone have any idea? 

It's hard to tell what kind of relationship she has with her siblings b/c none of them tell the whole truth about anything. What we do know is she is not allowed to be at the TTH unless JB is present, she hasn't shown in picture evidence that she's seen her father in several years or her mother since last spring (I think), but she has been present at her siblings recent weddings. She is also close enough to Jessa that Jessa requested her presence as she was laboring with Fern Ivy.

Edited by Nysha
To name the correct baby.
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3 minutes ago, Nysha said:

It's hard to tell what kind of relationship she has with her siblings b/c none of them tell the whole truth about anything. What we do know is she is not allowed to be at the TTH unless JB is present, she hasn't shown in picture evidence that she's seen her father in several years or her mother since last spring (I think), but she has been present at her siblings recent weddings. She is also close enough to Jessa that Jessa requested her presence as she was laboring with Fern.

No, that was Ivy's labor. Jessa had Fern in a hospital. 

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25 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

 

For me, one of the biggest tells was when I watched some of their more recent videos and how it is Jill doing most of the talking, not Derrick, and no adoring headship zombie stare AND!!! a number of occasions where she interrupted him, not disrespectfully or anything, but just to interject her points. Just like any other married couple. It's the seemingly small non-physical things like that that give me more insight into how Jill has grown than any of the other physical changes. 

Yes!  I was just about to make this point.  It's noticeable how Jill leads the question-answer sessions and Derick simply sits there and lets her do 75-80% of the talking.   No way would that happen with JB/Michelle.  And, can you imagine Jeremy sitting quietly while Jinger speaks?  Jinger can't say three words without him interrupting her.

Edited by Gemma Violet
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He actually looks good.  Has anyone heard about any plans to retake the bar?  Or if he is working somewhere?  I would doubt he is getting very much study time right now.  I wish the best to them.  This can't be an easy time.

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I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that Jill or any other Duggar sister DESERVED to be abused, simply because they might hold some prejudiced beliefs. It's less "blame the victim" but "I don't like the victim anyway so I don't care." That is not how abuse works -- abuse victims are not perfect people, and sometimes have gaping flaws and problems. The J'slaves could be the worst people in the world and they did not deserve to be abused by their brother and then ignored by their parents.

As long as the conversation becomes "oh she's fundie so I'm sure she didn't mind" I'm going to respectfully disagree because that's veering dangerously close to "blame the victim."

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5 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

Those of us who don't think Jill has changed her true nature, simply her public, documented behavior, aren't going anywhere.  And will continue to politely say what we think.  

True personal evolution takes a lot longer than the time Jill's been wearing jeans and had a nose ring.  If Derrick wanted Israel out of public school, he'd be gone.  If Derrick wanted to move to Oklahoma, they'd be gone.  If Derrick wanted her to dye her hair pink, get a buzz cut and a tattoo of The Rock on her ass, that's what she'd do. 

She continues to do what she's told.  By whatever man is there to take charge.  

So you think it's okay she was abused because she thought that was her role?

Edited by Lady Whistleup
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11 hours ago, Suzn said:

As I said, lots of praise...  I hope this doesn't become a place where criticism is squelched.

No one is squelching any criticism here IMHO.

9 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

Well, maybe she was the “hot” one in her own mind…

Ha! I was just about to write the exact same thing.

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5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Like Derick's behavior in court yesterday was very surprising to me. It seems he was being more than cordial in a public place, because he certainly could have avoided contact with Josh and Anna.

I like your whole post, but want to address that. I've read descriptions that when returning to the courtroom after a break Anna and Josh came up to Derick, and Josh held out his hand. Under those circs I wouldn't find it puzzling if Derick's response, perhaps automatic, would be to accept the handshake. Derick's just out of law school and I suspect he'd be more than usually circumspect in his behavior in a courtroom even while court was in recess. If he were inclined to freeze out Josh (at a minimum) or make some kind of scene, IMO he wouldn't act like that there. 

If Derick sought out Josh to be all friendly? Yeah, that would puzzle me too.

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14 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

 

Like Derick's behavior in court yesterday was very surprising to me. It seems he was being more than cordial in a public place, because he certainly could have avoided contact with Josh and Anna. I'm guessing he could have sat on the other side if he wanted to. But he didn't. The big question is, why?

 

There might not be another side of the courtroom to sit on. I was on a jury and that particular court room didn’t have the traditional two sides with an aisle down the middle. Up front there were a prosecution table and a defense table, but the gallery behind was just single rows of long benches. And with COVID they seem to be limiting numbers and seating may be restricted. He’s technically family of the defendant, so it may or less be his options for where to sit are limited. None of us really know, so I’m not reading anything into it either way. 

Edited by Trillium
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Just now, Jeeves said:

I like your whole post, but want to address that. I've read descriptions that when returning to the courtroom after a break Anna and Josh came up to Derick, and Josh held out his hand. Under those circs I wouldn't find it puzzling if Derick's response, perhaps automatic, would be to accept the handshake. Derick's just out of law school and I suspect he'd be more than usually circumspect in his behavior in a courtroom even while court was in recess. If he were inclined to freeze out Josh (at a minimum) or make some kind of scene, IMO he wouldn't act like that there. 

If Derick sought out Josh to be all friendly? Yeah, that would puzzle me too.

I agree, but I feel less sure about Derick being unable to make himself unavailable for a handshake from Josh. And as smarmy and arrogant that Josh is, I don't seeing him approaching the 'enemy' for a handshake. Folks like Josh and JB don't like rejection and are pretty savvy at heading it off in the pass.

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My understanding is that there is one family section in the courtroom and that Derek was sitting there, alone, when Anna came up to him. While I am sure he hates SexPest with the fire of a thousand suns, I would be willing to believe he views Anna as another victim. As far as the interaction with Josh, what was he supposed to do? Hit him or yell at him? That is not going to happen because if he made any sort of scene, he could jeopardize being in that courtroom for his wife when she testifies. There have even been occasions where outbursts in the gallery have been grounds for a mistrial as they can be seen as being influential or even prejudicial on the jury. 

I'm not reading anything into his brief interaction with SexPest either for the same reasons and we have all had occasions in our own lives where we've been cordial with individuals, problematic family members included, wanting to avoid a scene. 

Derek's number one reason for being there is to support his wife and he's going to conduct himself with that goal in mind. 

ETA: He was also seen talking briefly to SexPest's defense team and I highly doubt that was so he could lend them his newly-acquired knowledge but to get a little bit of a feel for them.

ETA2: He also put his head down when they were showing the obviously graphic CSAM and I can only imagine that he was thinking of Jill as a little girl and the abuse she suffered.

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6 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

If Jill is on the prosecution’s witness list, it is because they have met with her, probably several times, and know exactly what she is going to say....... I don’t think Jill is willing to risk her liberty, her marriage, and her reputation for the promise of family monopoly nights and frito pie. 

 

Whoa. WHOA. Back the f*** up.

Frito pie is a thing? Whaaaaat?

Edited by skatelady
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11 minutes ago, skatelady said:

Whoa. WHOA. Back the f*** up.

Frito pie is a thing? Whaaaaat?

It is, and it is delicious (especially made with Trader Joe’s Corn Dippers, which are bigger and thicker than regular Fritos). 

Count me with the people that are puzzled that Derick attended the trial yesterday. I’m assuming that he can’t tell Jill anything now, since she is on the witness list, but perhaps I’m wrong.

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I think Derek went to get the lay of the land ahead of time so even if he is not at liberty to discuss anything with Jill since she is a witness, he's not going in cold and has some time to process the obviously horrific proceedings so he can put on a supportive front for Jill. This has probably been stated in other threads but Austin was also there yesterday and he sat in the very back row of the family section, ignoring everyone, Derek included.

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