Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[EarlGreyTea]

Josh and Anna's website

 

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TLC pulled all scheduled episodes of 19 Kids and Counting.   Bye Duggars

 

I am really, really surprised Josh and Anna's Instagrams are still up, plus his Twitter. Usually with a huge story like this, the social media accounts are the first things to be wiped. You'd think with Josh taking the time to updated his LinkedIn, he'd have moseyed over to his other social media. On the other hand, seeing the anger in the comments may help force TLC to cancel.

Edited May 23, 2015 by EarlGreyTea

[Chalby]

For those of you who have experience with Fundies, is a little clandestine smooching and fondling between non-courting teenagers totally unheard of? Hormones will get the best of anyone, no matter how much you try to pray them away.

As arrogant as Josh can be I would truly feel sorry for him if he were to lose his job over this.

I do not feel sorry for him, especially when you hear how young one of the gals was and that family was also involved. That's an imbalance of power, in Josh's favour, not fondling between teenagers.

[NikSac]

 

I haven't seen any stories that indicate that the State Trooper said there would be follow-up or that the report was an official one. Everything I have seen indicates that the selected trooper had a personal relationship with Jim Bob and did nothing beyond lecture Josh. Source? I'm not being confrontational; if I'm wrong about this I would like to know.

 

Here's what the police report says about it: http://imgur.com/a/zqPMi#10

"The father said that he went to a state trooper and reported this, but no report was ever filed. The caller says that the father knew this trooper before hand, but they do not know hot [sic] well."

[JenCarroll]

I'd like to hear from Michelle's old neighbor. I'd like to hear, "There was a kid mowing a lawn in a bikini? Never noticed."

[PrincessSteel]

The running commentary here has been very riveting, informed and (given the incendiary nature of the allegations), admirably measured. But I have to stop reading now. This is messing with me big time. I was a casual viewer of this show, and I feel like an accessory to something horrible.

[Chalby]

In the interview, why did Josh say there'd probably be another courtship happening. Jana and Jinger looked like the wanted to rip him limb from limb after he said that. Major eye daggers. Anna looked like she was in a hostage situation. And yes, Jill was off, and heavily edited.

This recent turn of events also helps me understand why Anna was overcome with emotion when Josh mentioned support and prayers of friends... I thought she was feeling hormonal, but now her teariness makes sense.

 They don't get a pass just because they had good intentions. 

Remember that expression, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?

[SpaghettiTuesdays]

Say what you will about the situation, but it is in incredibly poor taste for the articles to include videos of J & A announcing M4 embeded in the same article that talks about what he did. Shame on you, online news articles.

[VioletNevermind]

I don't want to hear from the girls in the sense that they would justify what Josh did and convince us to forgive him "as they have."  I want them to denounce Josh, their parents, and what happened.  I want them to see the light.  I want for Ben, Jessa, Jill and Derick to find new homes so that they're providing for themselves, not relying on Jim Bob and Michelle.  Not saying there's even a remote possibility that any of that could happen, but a girl can dream.  I'm worried about what will happen to the remaining kids now that the fairytale/fiction has drawn to a close.

Edited May 23, 2015 by SuzyLee

[3girlsforus]

I'm not a lawyer but this is a link to the definition of sexual crimes according to the state of Arkansas. It certainly sounds like this is much more of a case of 2nd degree sexual assault rather than 4th degree. It doesn't change the statute of limitations which is 3 years from date the crime was committed but that is because Josh was a minor otherwise they would have until the victim turned 28. 

 

http://apps.rainn.org/policy-crime-definitions/index.cfm?state=Arkansas&group=3

[Saylii]

I'm not a lawyer but this is a link to the definition of sexual crimes according to the state of Arkansas. It certainly sounds like this is much more of a case of 2nd degree sexual assault rather than 4th degree. It doesn't change the statute of limitations which is 3 years from date the crime was committed but that is because Josh was a minor otherwise they would have until the victim turned 28.

http://apps.rainn.org/policy-crime-definitions/index.cfm?state=Arkansas&group=3

Remember these are the current laws which would not apply. Only the 2002/2003 laws apply.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

My heart hurts for the victims and for Anna and her kids (I honestly don't think Anna knew more than the vague statements about a past sin or something similar; she was probably told God wanted her to help/save Josh, etc).

I think this is the beginning of the Duggar family crumbling and their children will start to break away and speak about their childhoods. It may be soon or it may be years down the line, but this story going public is going to start that ball rolling.

One of the biggest issues I now see with the whole courtship thing (where you can never be alone as a couple) is that you never REALLY get a chance to tell your future spouse about any of you or your family's secrets before you marry. I know many families have things or family members they don't speak of except with very close friends, family, or their spouses. There is something from my childhood that only my parents, three close friends, & my husband know. It's not anything as awful as what happened to the Duggar girls, but it's still something I needed to talk about with my husband. Even though my parents know about it, they don't talk about it and I would not have been comfortable telling my then-boyfriend about it with them or anyone else around. Part of this courtship deal means that you can't really get to know one another - or especially know the baggage the other person comes with and whether or not you're prepared to deal with it or help your spouse deal with it. I hope Ben & Derrick can help their wives deal with it and I hope they weren't completely blindsided by this story.

Jill is lucky that she married a man with an education and real job to support her, because the Dugga gravy train is over. Even if some fundie circles forgive Josh and keep paying family members to give talks, etc, it'll never be as profitable as it was and will never be enough to support all the kids and their spouses & kids because there just too darn many of them and there will only grow to be more.

I hope Ben has been hitting the gym and his workouts hard. I don't believe in physical violence but I hope Ben at least gives chubby Smuggar some looks of intimidation while showing off his muscles somehow.

I have a fantasy that Jill's family and Jessa's family move into a duplex away from the Duggars (but close enough to Derrick's job). Ben can work fixing windshields or whatever while finishing a four year degree part-time.

I'd also watch a show about the older girls, their husbands, and Anna & the M kids living together or near each other and entering the real world while trying to sort out all the messed up stuff that happened in their lives.

To the older girls - this wasn't your fault. When you're ready, you can take control of the narrative. You can tell your version of this story and it's okay to be angry and not yet ready to forgive. You have a huge part of the public on your side. We'll watch your interviews, read your books, and we'd watch a spin-off showing you starting your life away from this mess. You could help other victims by doing so as well. And heck, Jana & any of the other girls - you can totally come live in my spare room for free if you'd just help me out every once in a while with my baby (I only have one) and you can watch whatever you want on TV, read whatever you want, wear shorts, go & come without a partner, go on dates, and only have to do your own laundry.

[Chalby]

Has anyone thought maybe tlc knew this was coming?

 

I mean look at the tone of that interview show

I was curious why they chose a format of interviewing the entire family, and it almost had the air of a finale.

[NikSac]

I wonder how much of this is even being discussed in the house right now. I mean of course the kids must know something is going on, but do they have any idea the extent of it?  They don't have TV, Internet is very controlled, and I can only imagine that they're not being allowed to go anywhere so they aren't being harassed or seeing headlines. As I understand it they were done taping for this season, right?  If so it's not like the cameras suddenly disappeared?  Do they know yet that the show stopped airing, Josh resigned, etc.?  I wonder if it's going to end up kind of slowly filtering down to the kids.

[mmecorday]

So Joshie made some "mistakes" and his parents sent him off to be fixed like someone would send off a broken watch to a jewelers. The difference is a broken watch is right twice a day. What Joshie did is not right at any time of day. 

Jim Boob and Michelle created a family dynamic in which curiosity outside what's written in the Bible or in textbooks about bankruptcy laws is verboten. They planted this "Flowers of the Attic" garden and wondered why one of their very own might want to touch a member of the opposite sex, even if some of those females happened to be his own kin.

I grew so angry today that I started to cry at my desk at work. The Duggars stand in judgment of other peoples' lifestyles when they have been harboring this horrifying secret about their family.

As someone who endured sexual molestation at the hands of an older cousin as a child, my heart is just about squeezed clean of blood at this point for Joshie's victims. Unless the Duggars produce a voice recording of Jesus bestowing forgiveness on their number one son that doesn't sound like Bart Simpson pretending to be Jesus, I remain doubtful that the Son of God absolved him of all blame.

Edited May 23, 2015 by mmecorday

[Rhondinella]

Because several very brave people have mentioned their own experiences with sexual abuse as part of this discussion, and as I'm sure there are many other survivors who have not felt comfortable sharing in a public forum (which is perfectly understandable), I thought it would be a good time to post this again.

 

The RAINN (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network) website can be found here and has lots of resources for people who have been or are currently victims of sexual abuse of any kind.  If you are one of those, please seek help.  Talking to a counselor about what happened to me as a child more than 30 years after the fact was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but also one of the best.  It truly can make things better.  Remember: It's not your fault.  It's not your shame.

 

Also please PM me if there's anything I can do to help.  Or even if you just want to talk.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Remember how everyone was so confused about JimBob allowing Jessa to marry Ben since he had no education or means to support her?

I'm wondering now if JimBob jumped on the chance for Ben to marry Jessa because he knew should word that she was a victim get out, she'd be damaged goods on the Gothard marriage market? (which by the way is crap and Jessa is/was not responsible for what happened) Maybe he saw a young, good-looking, naive boy who was fundie enough and really wanted his daughter. And she liked him too. Maybe JimBob thought "well, she likes him, he likes her, I can control him if word gets out because he'll work for me/I'll house them/he can't really support her/better get her married off before the secret is out & thus guy will do/etc.

I am really hoping Ben, as young as he is, can be the man Jessa needs to support her and protect her, since her father and oldest brother did not.

Edited May 23, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Chalby]

I remember having long conversations with my kids about the difference between a secret, which could be bad, and a surprise (like, we got mommy a pony, okay, nobody ever got me a pony, but you see what I mean). 

Sadly, if Josh is typical of other child molesters, for the 5 he has admitted to, you know there 30 he hasn't acknowledged.

The RAINN (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network) website can be found here and has lots of resources for people who have been or are currently victims of sexual abuse of any kind.  If you are one of those, please seek help. 

Wonderful, supportive post.

[kassygreene]

In one of my first posts to this forum I admitted that I don't watch the show, but was waiting for the train wreck.  This is not the wreck I was waiting for.

 

When I read the first bits of this (a mere 28 hours ago) I thought ok, Josh and an anonymous teenaged girl did teenaged stuff that for most of western culture isn't that shocking but for their value system was Very Much Shocking.  Then people began to summarize the report, and the details, and it was multiple victims over a year, and at least three of them lived with their parents, Jim-Bob and Michelle, and there it is.

 

That Josh resigned from the FRC with a letter that was clearly written for him was inevitable.  That TLC would do something late Friday (Take Out The Trash Day) was extremely likely.  That they would hedge things by pulling the show for now instead of outright cancelling it is partly the Brian Williams effect, but I suspect mostly a matter of getting lawyers back to work next week to carefully review contracts - losing a lawsuit on improper termination would be Bad and infuriating.

 

That the only acknowledged victim in the Duggar statements is Josh is to be expected.  His culture sees females as property, not people.  That the Hucksterbee is standing by Josh is also to be expected, as Huck has a Clemency problem.  That the response within the family to prevent or at least block the problem was made as it was is - pardon me, I feel slimey typing this - is slightly impressive.  These are coping mechanisms to deal with a problem that their culture did not permit them to resolve, or expressly acknowledge.  It's still reprehensible, and disgusting, and an even clearer demonstration of how even more screwy their understanding of human behavior is then their equally hypocritical take on baby-making - as many and whenever God decrees, with substantial intervention by those over-educated medical people, bills to be paid by the taxpayers.

 

The thing is, this is a patriarchy at work.  Protect the father's reputation.  Protect the eldest son.  Keep the daughters unsullied to improve their value.  The explicit bartering of properties with marriage contracts is gone, but the concept is pretty much the same.

 

It's sad, it's nowhere near over, and the rest of the children, and Anna and her 4-M's, are going to have to fend for themselves.

 

I must say however, that I am deeply impressed by the responses in this thread.  I don't know if the moderators have had to delete anything, and just reading through is time consuming (four (no, six (no, seven)) new replies have posted while I compose this), but there is no glee, there is no Aha!  In fact, I don't think there has been even one reference to a "J-slave" since this story broke.  And that's wonderful, because this has demonstrated just how enslaved to and entrapped by their cultural values these children are.  Absent intervention by the State of Arkansas, they are going to stay that way.

 

And now I will take a little pause to weep. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by kassygreene

[JenCarroll]

I don't want to hear from the girls in the sense that they would justify what Josh did and convince us to forgive him "as they have."  I want them to denounce Josh, their parents, and what happened.  I want them to see the light.  I want for Ben, Jessa, Jill and Derick to find new homes so that they're providing for themselves, not relying on Jim Bob and Michelle.  Not saying there's even a remote possibility that any of that could happen, but a girl can dream.  I'm worried about what will happen to the remaining kids now that the fairytale/fiction has drawn to a close.

Sure, but even if they do decide to speak out for those reasons, I would expect more time to pass before they're ready to do that.

I too am worried about the younger kids' situations -- but then, I always have been. I honestly have no idea whether it's better or worse for them for the show to be over.

[Mrsjumbo]

This is probably crazy but is it possible that JD leaked the story? IIRC he has some sort of low position in law enforcement, but he could have had access to the records. Plus, he doesn't live at the TTH, but his living arrangements are mysterious. I always thought he was a doofus, but he didn't seem unkind. He also never seemed close to Josh either.

I thought the exact same thing.

[mynextmistake]

Here's what the police report says about it: http://imgur.com/a/zqPMi#10

"The father said that he went to a state trooper and reported this, but no report was ever filed. The caller says that the father knew this trooper before hand, but they do not know hot [sic] well."

Ok. I looked at the police report and Jim Bob did say that he and the church elders took Josh to the troopers, but that he had a personal relationship with the trooper beforehand and the trooper told him no official action was necessary. If that's true, and he did intend this as an official report, that's a little better than I initally thought, I guess.

Still, it took him over a year and multiple allegations to "report" Josh. IMO, that's still pretty culpable.

Edited May 23, 2015 by mynextmistake

[Spencer Hastings]

I wonder how much of this is even being discussed in the house right now. I mean of course the kids must know something is going on, but do they have any idea the extent of it?

I've been wondering about the kids in general. Obviously those who were interviewed back in 2006 will remember talking to the police and something bad happening, but how much did those from Jed on down understand at that point in time? How much did they know? Did the howlers on down know or understand? How many of them have just had their entire world shattered? If this is something their parents were just sweeping under the rug, I count at least 8 who knew something about it but didn't quite understand or would have just found out for the first time when everyone starts acting weird.

I agree with those posters who say we don't need to hear from the girls. The world finding out about this is probably their worst nightmare come true and I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I truly can't imagine how they must feel knowing that everyone knows. I don't want or expect them to say a word about anything relating to the subject.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Spencer Hastings

[Happyfatchick]

http://sasian.org/sibling-sexual-abuse-a-parents-guide/

This link is to (obviously) a sibling sexual abuse booklet that was helpful to me as I try to wrap my head around everything that has happened with this family in the last couple days. If you go there, please scroll down to the subheadings
1) What are the effects of sibling sexual abuse? I found this particularly disturbing and it bothers me a great deal, as you can read it and clearly picture different sisters on camera.
2) What factors contribute to sibling sexual abuse? Amazing. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's Josh.
I originally went to this link to prove to myself that Josh's actions are molestation and not pedophilia. The mods are right, according to what I've found. It is sibling molestation. Incest. (Is there a more disgusting word in all the English language?)

I am heartbroken over this whole thing - I truly can't even remember a time in my life when I was so devastated by news that didn't concern my family. I don't know these people - the likelihood I will ever run across even one of them in my life is virtually nil. In fact, I only started learning anything about them recently, while trying to find more information about the "fundie" lifestyle for entirely personal reasons. I joined the forum and have "met" several wonderful, thoughtful, insightful people. It's been fun getting to know the Duggar family, although I looked at a picture today and could only name 9 of them. (I wasn't sure one of them was even a Duggar - he looked like Bill Clinton, honestly). I was only beginning to really see the personalities in the older ones. The ones younger than JoyAnna are a jumble. They are truly cute kids, though.

The magnitude of the fallout will be staggering. It was great fun and lots of LOL to poke fun; it's not so fun to see Humpty Dumpty fall down in a matter of hours.  So many families will be affected in the long run - not just those in the TTH, but all the TLC crew, all the support people, the newlywed families, Josh's wife and children. It's going to be so massive it might break the sound barrier. Amazing. I honestly thought the cracks would come as the children aged and stepped away from the concrete barrier that is JimBob Duggar. What an empire he managed to build on some shaky ground.

And yet. Because I dug so deep and tried to find out so much in a short time span (maybe 2 months?), the whole thing is all new and fresh to me. So many people who post here have been watching and posting forever - and today, in a head-on-collision kinda way, found out that almost everything the Duggars have been promoting to be certain, true and correct was missing some serious bricks in the foundation. How could they? I don't get it. I never will. I don't live a perfect rosy life - but I don't proclaim to, or make money from it. That's my problem. The pretense. The fallacy they've presented to us all. The enormity is overwhelming.

My bottom line (I think - I'm still trying to get a grip on the "worst" thing, there's so MANY to choose from!):
Yes, Josh was 14 and living under complete restrictive rules. VERY limited contact with adolescents in his age group, very repressed. I still can't excuse, eliminate or minimize his culpability. He knew he was doing wrong. He knew.  (This is not to say any blame is not resting on the parents.  He was, after all, a minor.  And they do, after all, make some odd life choices.)

On the summary timeline that someone posted a link to earlier, it states that the ages of the girls living in the house at that time were 12,11,10,9 and 5. This is what brings tears to my eyes. One of the incidents refers to him reading a book to a child and putting his hand up her dress. He was almost certainly reading a book to the five year old. From my perspective, a 14 year old boy fondled his very own 5 year old little SISTER. (Can't bring myself to insert names, but we all know). He knew, he knew, he knew it was wrong. Furthermore, his PARENTS knew and perpetuated the crime by covering for him and then building the Duggar brand fairy tale on top of it. Should they have addressed that BEFORE they went into full time production? NO!!! I don't want MY dirty laundry discussed in public. No way should they have had a sit-down with America to discuss their son's "alleged" perversion.  THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE MOVED FORWARD WITH THE PRODUCTION!!! THAT'S where the train derailed. I think if there hadn't been such a HUGE opportunity in front of them, they may have addressed the culprit AND the victims properly.  (Maybe).  I'm ashamed FOR them.  It's embarrassing to be a believer myself and know that this is why people may turn from a life of faith.

And then (big fat sweep under the rug, la-la-la) they made a TV show about what a wonderful life, and what wonderful people and what wonderful witnesses they are. Makes me sick.  Sick!
 

I'm guessing it was vewy vewy qwiet in the TTH tonight (except for sniffles or, you know, cryin' out to Jesus...).

 

The REALLY snarky part of me has this vision of Josh rolling up in the driveway of the newly remodeled grandma house, knocking at the door and telling a puffy-eyed Jessa and Ben "time's up.  I'ma need y'all to pack up and get out, I need the house back."

Edited May 23, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[silverspoons]

http://blindgossip.com/?p=71479#more-71479

 

Blind gossip has said the network knew about Josh because  there was suppose to be a crossover show between the Duggars and another show a few months ago, but the other show refused to be on tv with the Duggars.

Of course many people were guessing TLC and the Duggars and Oprah but the timing is off and it really wouldn't be a crossover?

 

There were several people saying the Willis family. This would make perfect sense because it is the Willis family's first season. they came on right after the Duggar's show on Tuesday. TLC loves big families meeting each other. Why would the Willis family have known about the Josh months ago? Is there a connection between the families now or years ago? I decided not to get hooked into another large religious family show so I have only read up on the history of the Willis clan and saw a few clips and AGT.

[Happyfatchick]

I'd like to hear from Michelle's old neighbor. I'd like to hear, "There was a kid mowing a lawn in a bikini? Never noticed."

It's early, but I'm voting for this as the quote of the day!  BAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

[Avaleigh]

I haven't posted about the Duggars since the TWoP days but I've continued to watch this and that other crap show Sister Wives off and on so when I read about this story I was horrified but not completely surprised. This really does explain a few things and I agree that the dormitory-ish set up was probably a response to what occurred. I remember the discussion basically being shut down because there wasn't any proof but some people totally had a vibe even back then that something seemed off about the situation.

 

I feel like Anna should absolutely leave if she didn't know but I get the impression she got a very downplayed version of events the first time around and that they're all going to toe the family line by acting like it isn't a big deal and that people are just hating on them for how successful and righteous they are. They'll think they're being "tested" IMO and I don't see Jim Bob or Michelle thinking that they've done anything wrong, unfortunately. All they care about now is saving the TLC gravy train in some way, shape or form. 

 

What really gets me with the response from Anna is what feels like an emphasis on the fact that Josh was a teenager when he decided to inappropriately touch his sisters sometimes when they were freaking sleeping. To me being in your teens is old enough to know better and the worst part is that he did it again and again and again and again and again. Red flag. Alarm bells should especially be ringing with regard to the chilling info about him touching while he was reading one of the girls a story. JFC. 

 

I can't even get into TLC's history of vetting people. Yikes.

 

The reaction is part of what has made the news so sad and difficult to read about. I also can't help but wonder how many of the super vocal fundamentalist supporters would have had the same reaction if Josh had molested his brothers rather than his sisters. 

[Mrsjumbo]

WOW, I take a couple of days off & the poo hit the fan for the Duggars! I am absolutely shocked. Like everyone else I wanted them to go away, but not like this.

Thoughts:

- I really hope this leads to a thorough investigation into Gothardism & his teachings like the secrets in Scientology are now being exposed.

-I felt the tiniest bit of pity for 14 yr old Josh, growing up in that nuthouse where SEX is constantly talked about, demonstrated (dry humping) & helled & brim fired but never explained in a healthy way. But then I think of pompous, smug, holier than thou adult Josh who is judging everyone else & even that tiny pity is gone.

- I think JB & MEchelle have drunk so much Gothard kool aid that they truly believe they took steps towards "fixing Josh's problem" (taking it to elders, punishing by manual labor, having a stern talking to by cop). That's the only way I can understand their behavior.

- those poor girls. Not only molested but forced to live years of lies with a smile on their faces. Getting no support from their parents. And now having it all splashed in the news around the world. I don't want to even think about how it was most probably made out to be their fault.

-I think the show will definitely be cancelled. The only way I see it continuing is if there is a spin off with the married girls (if they want to do it, those poor kids have had no choice about appearing on TV). I know people are still interested in seeing Jessa's baby & how Iz is doing. However, I can't see TLC continuing a show- the whole premise is a lie (see how Godly we are). They can't do an episode about say, taking the dog to the groomer when there's a huge 2 ton elephant in the room.

-I don't think essentially anything will change in their house, sadly. I'm hoping they were smart enough to know that the show couldn't go on forever & should have had a plan B. I think if the girls give any statements it will be rehearsed ones approved by JB & M. I just don't see the girls cutting & running. They've been brainwashed to believe "this brought us closer to God " & Josh is forgiven".

[bluebonnet]

BTW, there was some discussion about Dericks oral surgery earlier today. He did have braces on his top teeth in the last pics I saw. Someone said (sorry, no reference) he'd had his lower jaw moved back. They wouldn't have put braces on the lower teeth until his jaw has been realigned and healed. In his defense, I've seen that up close and personal. It's extensive, and the recovery is excruciating. I'm fairly certain he would NOT have done this for cosmetic reasons. No way. His lower jaw would be, as I recall, wired until healed together. Liquids, baby, and the bean pole just got beanier. Maybe it was his attempt at birth control. Believe me, he's out of commission for AWHILE.

 

This is completely untrue.  Orthodontics is a multi-step operation that must have steps planned out in advance.  You don't just go into some as extensive as jaw realingment surgery without first ensuring the position of the teeth have begun to move into their proper place - that proper place being where they should end up once the jaw is correctly aligned.  I know this because I've had jaw realignment surgery and due to ongoing complications (unrelated, jaw later broken in car accident and didn't heal properly), I continue to see my oral orthodontic surgeon and see and interact with all the jaw surgery patients there.  I wouldn't say recovery is excrutiating, not after the first week.  It's more psychological.  I would have panic attacks because there is something very claustrophobic about having the teeth wired shut (usually wired using the braces, btw).  Great weight loss plan, though.  Blended pizza, yummy.  

 

I have no idea what Derrick's dental issues are, but I've seen it mentioned several times in this thread that he had jaw surgery and people making weird speculations about the braces. Some might do this strictly for cosmetic reasons, but I doubt it's some attempt at birth control.  Improperly aligned jaws can lead to lifelong issues.  

[Joan van Snark]

Wonder what Mr. Jim thinks of all this?  I'm sure he's disgusted as I'm sure the girls were like family to him and now he might very well be out of a job, too.  

[farmgal4]

I haven't posted about the Duggars since the TWoP days but I've continued to watch this and that other crap show Sister Wives off and on so when I read about this story I was horrified but not completely surprised. This really does explain a few things and I agree that the dormitory-ish set up was probably a response to what occurred. I remember the discussion basically being shut down because there wasn't any proof but some people totally had a vibe even back then that something seemed off about the situation.

 

I feel like Anna should absolutely leave if she didn't know but I get the impression she got a very downplayed version of events the first time around and that they're all going to toe the family line by acting like it isn't a big deal and that people are just hating on them for how successful and righteous they are. They'll think they're being "tested" IMO and I don't see Jim Bob or Michelle thinking that they've done anything wrong, unfortunately. All they care about now is saving the TLC gravy train in some way, shape or form. 

 

What really gets me with the response from Anna is what feels like an emphasis on the fact that Josh was a teenager when he decided to inappropriately touch his sisters sometimes when they were freaking sleeping. To me being in your teens is old enough to know better and the worst part is that he did it again and again and again and again and again. Red flag. Alarm bells should especially be ringing with regard to the chilling info about him touching while he was reading one of the girls a story. JFC. 

 

I can't even get into TLC's history of vetting people. Yikes.

 

The reaction is part of what has made the news so sad and difficult to read about. I also can't help but wonder how many of the super vocal fundamentalist supporters would have had the same reaction if Josh had molested his brothers rather than his sisters.

We don't know for sure that he DIDN'T molest his brother(s). I'm not trying to get a rumor started; I'm just saying that he COULD have touched a brother(s) and either they never spilled the beans or JB and Michelle could have known about it but kept it super secretive because of the negative connotation (we all know how they feel about homosexuality). But again, this is just me thinking out loud, not accusing.

[Wellfleet]

Jill or Jessa who finally had outside support?

 

This theory is making more and more sense to me. Maybe one of them had a heart-to-heart with her MIL? Jill could have been having a bad day, Derick's back at work, Cathy's over at the McMansion helping with Izzy - Jill get the weepies and suddenly everything spills out? Cathy strikes me as the type who would know what to do - and wouldn't be shy about it either. Maybe both the senior Seewalds and the Byrums went to visit Boob & Me-chelle together? OMG - I'd have bought tickets to see the look on Boob's face.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Wellfleet

[Fiddle Dee Dee]

Can you imagine the paparazzi that has gathered in their town? Or near their house? I feel so sorry for those girls.

[KateUK]

Oh to be a 'fly on the wall' in the Duggar house at the moment!

 

Although I am shocked at the latest news there is a part of me that isn't.

 

I just feel sorry for the kids, all of them, not condoning what Josh did but, I think he is also a victim of how he was raised, Jim Bob and Michelle have a lot to answer for imo.

 

All of it, the girls knowing their mums 'cycle' the dry humping, the innuendo about sex, kid shouldn't have this sort of knowledge re their parents intimacy, it's just wrong imo and then to be told they must be kept pure, all the fuss about Josie not having her shoulders covered....oh for Gods sake,  knowing what we know now, how can those kids be anything other than screwed up?!

 

I wonder at how many other 'secrets' there are in that family.

 

Well the Duggar empire has exploded now, Jim Bob and Michelle have made their millions so they will still live a comfortable life style, but the kids, not educated, their family values blown apart, their 'celebrity' status gone, what sort of future do they have.

 

 

[graefin]

Mary was mentioned in the e-mail to Harpo as one of the ring-leaders of the dog-and-pony show. I have always seen her as very passive, and as not particularly into the whole Gothard thing. That was a big surprise to me.

 

I checked on the FOIA. A government agency has 20 working days -- about a month -- to turn over a document. They can take another 10 working days if they need to transfer the request to another department, and/or another 20 working days if they have to get more information from the requester. A lot of people have speculated that JB and J'chelle knew this was coming, and I think that's very possible. They certainly knew enough in advance to be able to send someone to the sheriff's office to try to get the report destroyed.

I was surprised about Mary also. But she is named in that article about Amy's producer suing her (and Deanna and Mary) for cheating him out of his cut after he renegotiated their salaries for them. Apparently they called him a "snake in the grass" and claimed he was helping her out of the goodness of his heart. So something is wrong there.

 

The request to destroy the documents was dated (or received) on Thursday afternoon around 2. Didn't the story break before then?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I know that a lot of the "without pity" has carried over from TWoP so we are used to a lot of snarky comments about tv shows here, but I would like to give many of you who have talked about your abuse some soft sweet cyberhugs. I have nothing but sympathy and love for anyone who has been abused. I can't imagine what the Duggar girls are going through right now with all of this going public. I watched the early Duggar specials back when they were still wearing those Fundie Little House on the Prairie dresses and even then I just wanted to get them the hell out of that house. To know that four of them were molested by their own brother and then forced to smile at him in front off the cameras for a decade just breaks my heart.

 

Everything I have seen indicates that the selected trooper had a personal relationship with Jim Bob and did nothing beyond lecture Josh. Source? I'm not being confrontational; if I'm wrong about this I would like to know.

From pages 14 and 15 of the police report: "James said that he knew a Cpl. Hutchins with the Arkansas State Police.  James said that he knew Hutchins because he used to be a car dealer and Cpl. Hutchins was the State Trooper who inspected used cars.... James said that Cpl. Hutchins gave **** a very stern talk about what might happen to **** if **** continued such behavior. James said that Cpl. Hutchins told **** that since **** had already put **** through a treatment program, there was nothing else to do."

 

This is the same Hutchins who is now serving a 56 year sentence for child pornography according to inTouch.

[starfire]

I am curious about the State Trooper that Josh was brought to for a "stern talking to" about the molestations. I have read that he was a friend (or at least acquaintance) of JimBob and was later sent to prison for 55 years for child porn. Very creepy and ironic.  I wonder who this guy is and how close was he was with JB or other higher-ups in JB's church. Were they close friends at the time of the arrest for child porn? Was he a member of JB's church? Did the trooper break any laws by not pursuing it and taking official action? I understand that oftentimes sexual abuse, incest, etc., are learned behaviors and I hate to think there is more to all this than what is already out there, but I do wonder.

Edited May 23, 2015 by starfire

[andromeda331]

I'm honestly still in shock over it. All these years, all those episodes it makes me sick. The many times JimBob and Michelle were smug over their lifestyle, the girls helping to sew bridesmaid dresses, cook and feed Josh, Jana's trips to DC to take care of his kids, Josh's smug additude towards Derrick and Ben, and his complaining over all the stuff the girls got. And they knew...they knew the whole time he had molested his sisters, their daughters. I'd love to see Josh and his parents held accountable for what it but there's probably no legal ground or anything to make them pay for what they put those girls through.

[Sunnybobs]

A lot of our shock as viewers is because its just hit the news now. For the family it's not news at all, these are events and horrible historic incidents that possibly in their minds were dealt with 10 years ago. The Josh 27 year old married man is not necessarily the same person as the 14 year old boy in the depth of the cult. I am very shocked at it all and surprised myself by feeling genuinely sad especially for Anna and the girls but I do think we need to consider that everyone involved in the report might now feel very differently about it and not feel how the viewing public feel as well. This is in no way meant to excuse his actions but it feels off to keep referring to all the sisters as victims when that might not be the current picture they have of themselves.

I am also fascinated as to who and why leaked this report now - what has it gained them?

[kellylovessnark]

So Josh is MIA with Facebook and his website? His Facebook account looks like it's been deleted and his website is down.

[Oldernowiser]

Were the girls ever allowed to understand they were absolutely victimized by their brother and supported? Or were they handed that load of Gothard crap about they must have defrauded him and it's better to be molested physically than damaged in spirit, so shut up and pray harder?

To your point, they may well have buried this so deep under a mile of facade that this is coming as a shock to them now...but it needs to. This is incest and child molestation. You don't get over what you're never permitted to process and mourn.

Does Josh still have sexual urges toward young girls? That's a pretty important question.

[BitterApple]

I know there's speculation that JD leaked the report, but I just can't see him blindsiding his sisters like that. Not to mention the damage it would do to a pregnant Anna and the kids. I think it was someone who's had it in for this family for a long time.

I am curious as to why the bombshell was dropped now. Why right at the season finale and not at some point earlier? Given that the regularly scheduled hiatus would provide a cooling-off period you almost have to go there and speculate whether this was planned by TLC. It's not like they didn't know about this all along.

[MMLEsq]

I'm kinda glad the Duggars got exposed. I mean being gay, having premarital sex, holding hands, kissing, hugging are all sins. Michelle said transgender people wants to molest children. Yet her very own child did it. I'm glad that this brought them down big time. They aren't this perfect christian loving family. Christians can do things like this. I'm feel sad for his victims though. I don't they they will speak out. Maybe JB is blaming them or telling them this will pass over. I hope not. I hope they get therapy. Josh fought so hard with the frc denying gays rights and women abortions. Now he's been exposed.

I have a Washington Post app on my Kindle and an editorial about the Duggars making the point you make was the top post this morning.  One portion of the article:

 

"It would never have occurred to the Duggars (or perhaps even TLC) that all along they were making a TV show about a subculture, but that's exactly what they were doing.  For all the blushing and godly euphemisms around the subject of sex, "19 Kids and Counting" is very much a show about outre behaviors that go against the modern mainstream.  So now is not the time to cancel it.  Now is the time for TLC to double down and have the courage to present America, at last, with a truly unscripted show about a family enduring a crisis largely of its own making.  Life is not what it quite seems at the Duggar compound -- but who ever watched that show and sincerely thought it was always that perfect?  Who would honestly believe that you can raise 19 human beings to all think and act according to their parents' beliefs?  No family is immune to suffering; no family is without secrets.  Cancellation would erase the Duggars from popular culture just at the moment that they've become more real."  It goes on to talk about how the show has mostly ignore the fact that Josh had joined an organization that virulently opposes gay rights and how the show instead was "transfixed by the older girls' giggly wedding-planning and the logistics of wholesome family outings."

 

Personally, I wish the show was staying on the air.  Not only for the reasons cited in the Washington Post article, but also because I think now would be the best time for outsiders (the crew) to be in the house.  I worry that the older girls will be blamed, or will blame themselves.  Plus, selfishly, I'll miss seeing the kids.

 

I'll be surprised if someone within the family (including the extended family of in-laws, etc.) leaked this story.  My guess would be that some reporter decided to dig into the Duggars to see if they could find any dirt, saw lots of rumors online about "sin in the camp," etc., and decided to pursue the story.  I don't know enough about the Freedom of Information Act -- do you have to know exactly what you're asking for or can the request be as simple as "we want to see any police reports that you might have that involve the Duggars"?   

Edited May 23, 2015 by MMLEsq

[Oldernowiser]

There's no way to keep the show on the air without continuing to reward JimBob and Michelle for their cover-up and hypocrisy. It's truly unfortunate that the victims will also be harmed financially.

IF TLC had any decency, they would cancel any further payments to the parents and use the money to set up a trust fund for the victims that their parents can't touch. Not that they wouldn't guilt the money out of the girls anyway.

[NJRach]

I can only imagine what is going on in the Duggar House right now. Michelle must be double or triple medicated. Her usual google-eyed look must have morphed into something frightful. I can't imagine what Jana and Jinger are doing with themselves, besides taking care of the little ones while Michelle falls apart and Boob plots his damage control plan. No one probably has the nerve to go out of the house, to get away from it all. Bob probably won't allow it either.

 

Joshie's text of "Heyyyyy, I'm back in town" must get a response of crickets. 

 

I also feel bad for Derrick, the only gainfully employed Duggar. How in the world does that guy hold down a job? Between all the family trips, new baby and dental surgery, now he is coming in to work with his mouth wired shut and the family scandal on his mind and also his coworkers Iphones and computers.

Edited May 23, 2015 by NJRach

[Tabbygirl521]

It has been many years since I have been able to stomach an entire episode of this show. Those idiot parents, with their defiantly proud clinging to ignorance and their clear mistreatment and exploitation of those beautiful children, make my blood boil. So much wasted potential. To learn now how very badly they have failed their daughters is utterly sickening.

I started to watch the Erica Hill ep but had to stop. Gross. Enough with the horny-teenager parents. What on earth do the younger kids think their parents are talking about with all the hey-hey-hey, nudge-nudge, wink-wink crap? Modest, my ass.

It would wonderful if, as a poster upthread suggested, this inspires the public to start turning over the rocks of extreme fundie-ism, to expose the creepy-crawlies underneath - as is starting to happen with Scientology. Maybe, maybe we can start to reverse the terrifying trends in the US to restrict the right of LGBTQ and female citizens.

How can rational humans fall for such as Gothardism? Men cannot control themselves at all, so women, it is all on you. Yet somehow they are in charge of you, even though they can't control themselves. Yeah, THAT makes sense.

[Ziz]

Probably OT, but someone mentioned the Seewalds being Vision Forum. DIdn't know what that was so I looked it up. Apparently their leader resigned (shutting the whole thing down) when the news of his extramarital affair broke. CAN NO ONE KEEP IT IN THEIR PANTS?? As a woman, the patriarchal tenets of these groups frustrate me to no end, but it's the hypocrisy of the men especially that really drives me up the wall:  "God said all these things so women must stay at home and obey me. I'm just going to ignore the part where God said not to commit adultery."

[notnowimbusy]

The statute of limitations has obviously run out for any type of criminal action, BUT in Arkansas a molestation victim may file a Civil suit up to 3 years after they turn 18.   Wouldn't it be fabulous if one of the younger girls sued Josh!!! 

[Bizee]

Part of me thinks that Jim Bob only went to the police to save his ass from being charged or called by CPS.  

[msblossom]

I would be surprised if TLC does cancel the show. However, my hope is that the show is cancelled. We've had 10 or 11 years of the Duggars and it's time to say part ways. Continuing with the show, imo, doesn't improve this family -- it just keeps funding and fueling the Duggar and Gothard machine. It empowers JB & Michelle's line of thinking and family values that gets filtered through each child, and especially through the adult children and their spouses who are getting the most media attention because of it. Having the media attention from the show rewards JB's values and principles and I believe it's time to put an end to the show which provides a platform that leads to speaking engagements all over the country for this bunch.

Whether the show goes on or gets cancelled, I think the victims of Josh's molestation will perpetually live in guilt as long as they continue to hitch their wagons to Gothard and the fundamental values of JB & Michelle.

[CofCinci]

Part of me thinks that Jim Bob only went to the police to save his ass from being charged or called by CPS.

He didn't go to the police. He went to his State Trooper (not police at all) friend who most likely would help him scam used car buyers with false inspections.