Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[quarks]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

How did they get through? Weren't the Duggars part of the Caldwell church? And Katey's husband is possibly on the witness list? What questions were they asked that didn't screen them out?

I don't know what questions were or weren't asked, but someone else got through who knew the prosecutor, so the screening process doesn't seem to have covered "do you know these people?" Or at least, not all that well.

Katey's husband, Jed, owns the other car lot. He might just be testifying about the employment start dates, or he may be testifying about who did or did not have access to the HP computer on Josh's car lot. It's not at all clear if he's actually going to be called to testify - he hasn't been mentioned in the previous court documents. 

[lascuba]

8 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

That makes it so much better, doesn't it? 

It would have been better to just lie and say he didn't know of any touching under the clothes rather than acknowledge it happened but be so dismissive about it.

[SusanM]

6 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

That makes it so much better, doesn't it? 

Of course. These are the same people who seem to thnk that the girls being asleep means it was never a big deal. The idea they tried to convey was that the girls weren't really violated and that this made Josh a considerate molester I guess. 

[libgirl2]

Just now, lascuba said:

It would have been better to just lie and say he didn't know of any touching under the clothes rather than acknowledge it happened but be so dismissive about it.

He made it seem trivial. It was only for a few seconds so it didn't really matter or harm the victim. 

1 minute ago, SusannahM said:

Of course. These are the same people who seem to thnk that the girls being asleep means it was never a big deal. The idea they tried to convey was that the girls weren't really violated and that this made Josh a considerate molester I guess. 

Yes, because he could have done it for a longer time but, wow, he is such a nice guy! 

[mythoughtis]

Poor JB.  He’s used to being the big fish in the small pond. He’s been the head of his family for over 35 years.  He’s been the head of a home church off and on.  Been a boss of people working on his properties, etc.  He was also a state rep, and power often goes to those politicians head’s.  
It must have been humbling to meet someone who didn’t let him make all the decisions. Didn’t Josh’s lawyers prep him for this testimony?  Didn’t they tell him he can’t act above the law  in the courtroom? How arrogant. 

[Dimi1]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Joy. She was sitting on his lap while he read a story.

oh...no...i just heard he messed with them while they were sleeping...i had no idea he did that to little Joy...

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, mythoughtis said:

Didn’t Josh’s lawyers prep him for this testimony?  Didn’t they tell him he can’t act above the law  in the courtroom? How arrogant. 

This makes me even more convinced that Smuggar's lawyers tried to get him to take a plea and he and his charming father wouldn't do it.  Not because they know he's innocent but because they seriously think they call all the shots, all the time.

[quarks]

1 minute ago, mythoughtis said:

It must have been humbling to meet someone who didn’t let him make all the decisions. Didn’t Josh’s lawyers prep him for this testimony?  Didn’t they tell him he can’t act above the law  in the courtroom? How arrogant. 

JB was called as a witness for the prosecution, not the defense. The defense attorneys could certainly interview him and other prosecution witnesses before the trial, but their job is to defend Josh and Josh's reputation, not JB's. 

But also, "Don't upset the federal judge!" is really something JB should have been able to work out on his own.

[Churchhoney]

25 minutes ago, Dimi1 said:

oh...no...i just heard he messed with them while they were sleeping...i had no idea he did that to little Joy...

He got Jinger while she was tending the laundry room, I think. So....at least two were wide awake. Part of the escalation of his behaviors. He clearly became bolder with time. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Tdoc72]

8 hours ago, monkeypox said:

From the People article:

This is the first time I have ever heard that Josh penetrated one of his sisters. Maybe I missed the revelation somewhere? I knew that JB, MEEchelle, Jill, and Jessa all lied in the Megyn Kelly interview that Josh only "inappropriately touched sleeping sisters over their clothes, without waking them up" because I read the redacted police report years ago. Megyn Kelly agreed to help the cover-up for her own reasons. But I don't remember the penetration detail being reported before.

What a horror that the Duggar girls were forced to forgive Josh and lie about his assaults in order to protect him and their parents' fortune and reputations.

As much as I hate to give JB any credit, I did recently see a clip of the Megyn Kelly interview and he did mention the under the clothes touching. He said something like “a couple of occasions under the clothes.”  Not sure if it was here upthread somewhere or FreeJinger.  It was very quick, like he was trying to brush past it. 

[sagittarius sue]

I decided to have a look at the judge, Judge Timothy Brooks, and found this interesting article that came out when he was appointed.   https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2014/sep/28/timothy-l-brooks-20140928/  He's known for his meticulous preparation, and I think the trial's probably in good hands.  I'm sure JB hates the fact that he was appointed by Pres. Obama!

[Dianaofthehunt]

^ Thanks for posting this story Sagittarius Sue!
I would not dare to annoy that bulldog of a judge under any circumstances.
ALL RISE.

[TeeMo]

I can’t imagine what it must feel like to be one of those four girls watching their father fail them over and over again. First when it happened and he failed to take action to properly protect them. Then when he put them on TV to talk about how what happened to them was no big deal. And now when their brother is facing a trial due to the continuation of his disgusting, depraved, criminal behavior, their father is called in and again tries to downplay what happened to them by claiming forgets all the details. Disgusting. 

[all fall down]

2 hours ago, TeeMo said:

I can’t imagine what it must feel like to be one of those four girls watching their father fail them over and over again. First when it happened and he failed to take action to properly protect them. Then when he put them on TV to talk about how what happened to them was no big deal. And now when their brother is facing a trial due to the continuation of his disgusting, depraved, criminal behavior, their father is called in and again tries to downplay what happened to them by claiming forgets all the details. Disgusting. 

I don't know that they* even realize that their parents failed them. If they truly think this happens in most homes, they might not know how it should have been properly handled. They have been trained to think their parents have all the answers and did the right thing and they aren't to question it. They probably don't know what other paths were available for their parents to follow. They trust that their parents made the right decisions, no matter how they felt about them, and weren't allowed to express their feelings on the matter. I'm sure JB said that by keeping the knowledge of the abuse within the family (and church), that was their way of protecting the girls. He'd be wrong, but he I can see him thinking that. 

*I think only Jill maybe now realizes how fucked up this all was and that she wasn't protected. It's possible that she has spoken to the others about it now, but they may not be emotionally ready or open enough to receive that information. 

I'll be interested in her testimony, if she does indeed testify. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by christine falls

[Dimi1]

11 minutes ago, TeeMo said:

I can’t imagine what it must feel like to be one of those four girls watching their father fail them over and over again. First when it happened and he failed to take action to properly protect them. Then when he put them on TV to talk about how what happened to them was no big deal. And now when their brother is facing a trial due to the continuation of his disgusting, depraved, criminal behavior, their father is called in and again tries to downplay what happened to them by claiming forgets all the details. Disgusting. 

we are seeing it in their lives now..that failure...Joy , jill and Jinger have separated from their families and are not dependent on them...jessa is the one that I cannot figure out...was she so damaged that she is holding out for Jimbobs love and approval...

[Natalie68]

6 hours ago, Nysha said:

That was Jill who said that to Megyn Kelly. I'm guessing it was a line force-fed to the girls to make what Josh did seem naughty but normal.

JB & Michelle completely suck as parents. That those little girls were told it was their fault for tempting Josh makes me wonder what JB's attracted to.

They do nor do they keep them safe.  Frankly I think all the minors in their home would be better off being raised by someone else.  

[Dimi1]

Just now, christine falls said:

I don't know that they* even realize that their parents failed them. If they truly think this happens in most homes, they might not know how it should have been properly handled. They have been trained to think their parents have all the answers and did the right thing and they aren't to question it. They probably don't know what other paths were available for their parents to follow. They trust that their parents made the right decisions, no matter how they felt about them, and weren't allowed to express their feelings on the matter. I'm sure JB said that by keeping the knowledge of the abuse within the family (and church), that was their way of protecting the girls. He'd be wrong, but he I can see him thinking that. 

*I think only Jill maybe now realizes how fucked up this all was and that she wasn't protected. It's possible that she has spoken to the others about it now, but they may not be emotionally ready or open enough to receive that information. 

I'll be interested in her testimony, if she does indeed testify. 

as someone coming from an abusive home - physically and verbally...it takes a long time and a lot of therapy...mine went something like this...I blame my Dad for the abuse in anger, I blame my mom for doing nothing, I blame God because why in the world did he dump me in that family...I came out on the other end and now in present time do pastoral counseling...the hardest part is the God part...and what makes it worse is other chrisitans invalidate my experience and probably the girls...I had someone do it yesterday...I have and they have the right to feel anger, to feel violated, and to not allow me to feel it is calling evil good - based on whatever scripture they are using to invalidate...I worked this out over many years often painfully ...but I had the support of my husband and many many people who helped me on the journey...strike one for the girls is they have mechelle...strike 2 is they have jim bob...and strike 3 ..is maybe the church they are going to ...I hope they can find their way....and I do think some of them are...

[iwantcookies]

M7 was born 5 weeks ago. $5 says Anna is trying to get pregnant again. 
 

She got a few Tuesdays to get pregnant with M8.

[Dimi1]

12 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

M7 was born 5 weeks ago. $5 says Anna is trying to get pregnant again. 
 

She got a few Tuesdays to get pregnant with M8.

that is going to be really hard on her body...my mom got pregnant twice before six weeks and she has had multiple surgeries because of what it did to her...

[Lady Whistleup]

Poor Jill. Poor Jessa. Poor Joy. Poor Jinger. With these shitty ass parents these girls never had a chance did they?

[Dianaofthehunt]

22 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

M7 was born 5 weeks ago. $5 says Anna is trying to get pregnant again. 
 

She got a few Tuesdays to get pregnant with M8.

Why would she, though? Another pregnancy and baby would only add to her already overbearing burden. What would be the point of having another? In what way could she possibly benefit?

[IndianPaintbrush]

I know I should never underestimate the depths of Josh's arrogance/stupidity, but I'm still shocked that he didn't take a plea deal. I really thought he would plead no contest. 

And if I ever hear Boob or Michelle talking about the "sanctity of life" ever again, I will lose it. It's obvious they had zero concern for their girls.

[Tabbygirl521]

2 hours ago, SusannahM said:

Of course. These are the same people who seem to thnk that the girls being asleep means it was never a big deal. The idea they tried to convey was that the girls weren't really violated and that this made Josh a considerate molester I guess. 

Didn’t they start requiring the girls to sleep en masse in street clothes, as their brilliant solution?

[Sile]

2 hours ago, CandyCaneTree said:

Knowing fundies myself they consider all sins equal. 

But some are more equal than others.

[LilJen]

5 hours ago, dariafan said:

Does their Bible not have any scripture about not lying ?????

No. There are actually only nine commandments!! 😀

3 hours ago, hathorlive said:

Actually, Emily Lawyer girl just pointed out that Arkansas's mandatory reporting law states this:

Any clergy member, which includes ministers, priests, rabbis, accredited Christian Science practitioners, or other similar functionaries of a religious organization or a person reasonably believed to be so by the person consulting him or her;

• Except to the extent that the clergy member has acquired knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment through communication required to be kept confidential pursuant to the religious discipline of the relevant denomination or faith or received the knowledge of the suspected child maltreatment from the alleged offender in the context of a statement of admission.

So if Josh told BobYE, who is deemed a member of the clergy, then she doesn't HAVE TO REPORT IT, because the suspect himself confided in her.  I guess if Jill told BobYE that Josh molested her, then she'd have to report it.  

I wonder if Jim Holt or JB were in the AR house when that bit of bullshit passed?

Wow, that is…quite a loophole in the law. One hopes that any clergy in that situation would push for the perpetrator/confesser to do the right thing.

16 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Why would she, though? Another pregnancy and baby would only add to her already overbearing burden. What would be the point of having another? In what way could she possibly benefit?

This would prove to the world that, regardless of the trial outcome, she and Joshley are favored and blessed by God! 

[GeeGolly]

I assume court is over for the day. Does anyone know if they were able to seat a jury?

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

I assume court is over for the day. Does anyone know if they were able to seat a jury?

We also still haven't heard a out the ruling on allowing the molestations.

[Ljohnson1987]

How could Anna be supervising the kids, if she's having sex with her perv husband? Ugh! Anna.. give your body a break, and focus on the kids you have, 

[Westiepeach]

7 minutes ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

How could Anna be supervising the kids, if she's having sex with her perv husband? Ugh! Anna.. give your body a break, and focus on the kids you have, 

But how else could she populate the army for the right Jesus?

[BradandJanet]

I think Anna would do her best to get pregnant just to double down on her position in this cult. However, a miscarriage while the Pest is in prison would have to be a bad omen. 

[Ljohnson1987]

The band-aid babies that Anna has had since the scandal broke are bad omens. Not saying anything bad about the children, but they haven't fixed anything in regards to Josh.  Not that they are supposed to. 

[Lady Whistleup]

You know what else makes me sad? At this time the Jslave husbands really need to step it up and support their wives through what must be a very difficult time. I don't see it happening though. I don't think it's in Jeremy/Ben/Derick/Austin's toolbox to be completely supportive.

[crazycatlady58]

7 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

You know what else makes me sad? At this time the Jslave husbands really need to step it up and support their wives through what must be a very difficult time. I don't see it happening though. I don't think it's in Jeremy/Ben/Derick/Austin's toolbox to be completely supportive.

  I was just thinking that I was surprised that the son in laws haven't gone up to Josh and punched his face in especially Austin.  I think the husbands are being as supportive as they know how and let's face it even as little support as they may be giving their wives it is probably a lot more than their parents gave them. 

[CandyCaneTree]

They have just announced that the jury 12 + 6 alternates have been sat on the jury.  Trial starts tomorrow morning. 

 

[CherryMalotte]

Per the update at a news reporter's Twitter account (https://twitter.com/annadarlingtv) the jury has been selected, and that the trial itself will start tomorrow.  

 

[jacourt]

Oh boy here we go!!

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

 

We do know that this apparently isn't what Josh is saying. According to court documents filed by the prosecution, Josh -- allegedly -- has been telling family members and associates that this all happened because he trusted so many of the wrong people, including various convicts. He doesn't seem to be blaming political opponents.

And this is why I do not think Anna is trying to get knocked up again so soon.  Anna believes what Josh is saying, and he will be acquitted.  No need to skirt the biblical teachings of Gothard that says she is to wait 80 days after the birth of a daughter because Josh will be home with her and the kids when that blessed day happens.

[louannems]

6 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

Anna is clutching his hand with both of hers. I am truly disgusted by her standing by Joshua. Protect your kids Anna the Dingus.

I had to watch it twice as I seriously thought Anna was in handcuffs!  Why is she doing that?  It looks very unnatural.

[Zella]

5 hours ago, monkeypox said:

Thanks Zella. I hadn't seen the revelation before yesterday. I had long suspected it was true, but had never seen a confirmation, though I was looking. JB, Meech, and Josh are the absolute worst.

I'm glad you commented on that, though! It made me revisit the police report and was a good reminder to me not to just assume and to check sources! 

[iwantcookies]

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-trial-jill-duggar-jedidiah-duggar-included-on-potential-witness-list/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/30/us/josh-duggar-child-pornography-charges.html

[CandyCaneTree]

New name for the show 

18 kids and 1 pedophile and counting. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I hope they don't make Jill or any of his sisters testify. It would be so traumatic and they'd have to relive not only the abuse by Josh but also how little their parents cared. 

[Panopticon]

9 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I hope they don't make Jill or any of his sisters testify. It would be so traumatic and they'd have to relive not only the abuse by Josh but also how little their parents cared. 

And if Jill, in particular, testifies against her brother she’ll no doubt find herself even further estranged from her parents and some of her siblings. Even if that’s somehow for the best in the long run, it will hurt. And she’s been hurt more than enough by Josh’s behavior and the fallout. 

[quarks]

13 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I hope they don't make Jill or any of his sisters testify. It would be so traumatic and they'd have to relive not only the abuse by Josh but also how little their parents cared. 

I wonder if they are making Jill testify, or if she volunteered/agreed to testify? 

Jed! sure. He's not one of the alleged victims, and he may have information/testimony about the current alleged crimes, and/or the people that the defense is trying to blame for the crime. That's all stuff that both the prosecution and the defense can compel him to testify about. And the other witnesses who are also not alleged victims of Josh, also sure, no matter how personally upsetting (Bobye Holt) or potentially embarrassing (William Mize, Caleb Williams, Matthew Waller, Randall Barry.)

With Jill, though - she's the only victim named as a potential witness. The prosecution said in an earlier motion that they were interviewing "several" Duggar family members and adjacents. That probably included Jessa and Joy, if only to find out if they ever visited the car lot. So I'm wondering if they asked all three if they were willing to testify in court, and Jill was the only one who said yes.

I just hope it isn't too traumatic and upsetting for her. 

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I hope they don't make Jill or any of his sisters testify. It would be so traumatic and they'd have to relive not only the abuse by Josh but also how little their parents cared. 

Jill is a potential prosecution witness.  I doubt that they coerced her to testify, the prosecutors know that forcing one of Josh' victims to testify as a hostile witness against her will would not look good to the jury.  If Jill really objected to testifying, I don't think she'd have been placed on the list.  Perhaps Jill has decided that her relationship with her parents is not worth the price she's had to pay by hiding from what happened and she is no longer willing to participate in the cover-up.  She's been in therapy, I hope she's spent a lot of time discussing Josh' current legal woes as well as the possibility that she could play a role in bringing him to justice.  The statute of limitations ran out on the crimes he committed against Jill and her sisters; maybe Jill wants the opportunity to speak her piece without any spin or coercion from her parents.

Maybe Jill, as a parent, has decided that she needs to do whatever she can to try to prevent her brother from hurting more children.

I hope she feels empowered and strong and righteous.  I am saying a prayer for her tonight and wishing her the best as she does what she needs to do.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Rootbeer

[JustRosie]

On 11/30/2021 at 8:46 PM, louannems said:

I had to watch it twice as I seriously thought Anna was in handcuffs!  Why is she doing that?  It looks 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Namaste
Clarity

[Lady Whistleup]

31 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Maybe Jill, as a parent, has decided that she needs to do whatever she can to try to prevent her brother from hurting more children.

I hope she feels empowered and strong and righteous.  I am saying a prayer for her tonight and wishing her the best as she does what she needs to do to.

I do too. I still am upset reading that one of the Duggar sisters woke up and had to hit Josh to get him to stop touching her. "Keeping sweet" is such a tenet for the Duggar woman that it must have been just cold fear and pure instinct that made the J'slave defend herself.

As for Anna, she's beyond help. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Detailed recap of the first day by someone who was there.

[Tuxcat]

Can someone save me some time and explain how Caleb Williams (potential witness) is tied up with this case? I know he has his own legal issues. How does this connect to Josh?

Edited December 1, 2021 by Tuxcat

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I hope they don't make Jill or any of his sisters testify. It would be so traumatic and they'd have to relive not only the abuse by Josh but also how little their parents cared. 

I expect the prosecutors would like to avoid that, too, if they could. That's probably why they dug up Bobye Holt to testify. If her testimony is allowed in, that might spare Jill, if she wants to be spared. It'd be possible to find something positive in testifying, for some people, I think. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Churchhoney