Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[becca3891]

In all the recent pictures that I've seen on this board the women are showing their knees and wearing fitted shirts, etc. I've never watched this show (beyond the original special) but I thought they were chest binding, ankle-hiding types based on reading this thread and the comments about defrauding and modesty and all of that.

You raise an interesting point. They are as obsessed about defrauding and modesty as they ever were. And they do say that their skirts are always supposed to cover the knee, and that their shirts are supposed to not be too tight or low cut. But I'd agree that they push the envelope with both those things. They are completely blind to the fact that their modesty standards are arbitrary, and that by nature of being human beings, they will certainly "defraud" people every day. It's almost like, to them, as long as you follow Gothard's magic but highly arbitrary formula, you're safe from defrauding.

 

But it's also true that the infamous "church elders" had a conference about how young women needed to perhaps bind their chests and wear looser shirts after Josh confessed that tight blouses were what caused him to molest the victim not in the family. Ugh.

[Quilt Fairy]

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/why-the-duggar-abuse-investigation-end

 

From the msnbc website where a lawyer reviewed the Arkansas statutes and says the SOL really ran out in 2013, not 2006.

[RazzleberryPie]

The Duggars are listed as attending by VIDEO, so not actually attending the conference. Not sure if that is a change since you saw the site.

[Here is a quote from the site: "The Nashville, Tennessee Family Conference is held right after Memorial Day weekend – May 26-29. The late spring weather is usually temperate, and the location has 50% of the U.S. population within 600 miles!" what an odd thing to say.]

I attended a work related conference in Columbus, OH, once, and they said the same thing. I guess that geographic stat is true of just about any mid-western (geographically, not culturally) city in the US.

 

The Erin HIll episode is this season, and it is number 21 on the On Demand list.

On Demand has finally removed all the 19 Kids episodes this morning, at least on my provider.

 

Here's a post about the possible future of the show.

 

http://www.tmz.com/2015/05/23/19-kids-and-counting-josh-duggar-molestation-scandal-tlc-jill-jessa/

Jim Bob and TLC are not going to eliminate a cash cow unless forced. I think many of us predicted that things would be shifted to the adult kids, soon.  I don't want to see any of them if Jim Bob, Michelle, or Josh are around.

 

Bluebonnet, if you read through the "Sweet Fellowship" thread, I think that might help you understand the feelings many of us share about TFDW. I can't think of anyone here who would make fun of anyone on the basis of sexual orientation.

Personally, I call David Waller 'Fabulous' or 'Flamboyant', because he IS. Gay, straight, asexual, whatever, he is flamboyant. Not to admonish anyone else or be sanctimonious, but I really have tried hard to refrain from calling him gay or 'acting' gay, because he says he is straight. 'Gay' is not an insult. I actually feared, that due to David's beliefs, that any perception of him being 'unmanly' would reflect on Priscilla. All the burden would be placed on her, and for all his actions, IMO, he has an underlying cruel streak. Something is 'off' with Priscilla (not sure if she's just trying too hard to be The Perfect Christian Wife and Mother, or if she's limited, or if the brainwashing is just too much, or if she's struggling with hiding some major secrets), and I would hate to see her as the recipient of spiritual, verbal or even physical abuse, because her husband is flamboyant.

 

How would everyone feel about all this if Josh were a sweet, respectful and humble man?  I think it would make a big difference to me.  The fact that his so clearly unrepetentant is one of the main reasons I hate this man so much at this moment, and cannot simply chalk it up to being a teenage indescretion.  

 

You hit the nail on the head. If Josh wasn't so smug, condescending and if his apology wasn't all about him - but about the damage done to his ministry, the victims, the source of income for everyone associated with the show (Duggars, crew, etc.) then I would have much more sympathy.

 

It's not just you. I think cults both attract and, probably, mold (certainly encourage) control freaks and the power obsessed. And since sex offenses are primarily about power and control -- voila. Ugly stuff, and we aren't nearly aware enough of these dynamics. I mean, we KNOW this, but we seem to forget it again and again.

Absolutely. 

 

In all the recent pictures that I've seen on this board the women are showing their knees and wearing fitted shirts, etc. I've never watched this show (beyond the original special) but I thought they were chest binding, ankle-hiding types based on reading this thread and the comments about defrauding and modesty and all of that.

Within the past 2-3 years (after Josh left the house and the older girls were promoting their books), they've become much, much more stylish and contemporary. Still modest, but more mainstream than the homemade flowered prairie dresses with huge peter pan collars. They still talk about modesty 24/7 and how they're so much more modesty than every one else. 

 

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/josh-duggar-makes-joke-about-dating-siblings-in-old-19-kids-clip-2015255

 

Smuggar jokes about siblings dating.

That's nauseating. I don't know how Jessa didn't punch him in the face everytime he entered the room.

[flyingdi]

Where did the chest binding stuff come from? I have never once heard that the Duggars make their daughters do this.

[RazzleberryPie]

Absolutely not implying the TFDW has any issues that Josh does.  Only snarking on the two of them and their always present love fest. 

I agree. Absolutely NOT the same 'issues.' Unlike Michelle, we know the difference between possible attraction to adult males (David) and child molesting, incestuous, perverted fiends (Josh). The only personality trait those two share is a Massive Ego.

Where did the chest binding stuff come from? I have never once heard that the Duggars make their daughters do this.

Someone above posted a snippet of a web post, no idea of the original source or truthfulness, that said some men in her church (the Duggar's 2002 church) had issue with teen girls showing too much chest. They met with the dads and said they needed to cover and bind. I don't recall ever hearing the Duggars say their girls needed to bind anything, either. Cover from neck to knee, no pants, always sleeves, is pretty much it. 

[Ilovemylabs]

I'm sorry to be the wet blanket here, but I wish this whole TFDW thing would stop as I've read the list in the 19 Questions Thread and the explanation of how TFDW came about and it's clear that this is a term used for mockery.  One, being gay isn't something to be mocked, no more than having red hair or being left-handed.  It's no ok to mock gay people.  Two, so much of the criticism against the Duggars over the years have been their strict adherence to gender stereotypes, so it makes little sense that the fandom would mock a person for not strictly adhering to a specific gender behavior.  shame shame shame.  Raginging about Waller's stance on the LGBTQIA community is one thing.  Mocking him for the suspicion that he's gay is shameful.  

 

I recognize this is a post that will likely be hidden but I just can't stand this anymore and am genuinely saddened that this sort of behavior persists outside of the Duggar cult.  

I totally agree.  I have posted similar sentiments here and the moderators have posted them.  Sometimes the speculation and comments and snark I find on this site are truly egregious, although the moderators do step in and try to clean things up.  More power to them, and thanks. The thing I find most disgusting about this whole situation is that I think (MY SPECULATION)  the Duggar family, especially the victims had come to terms with what happened and had achieved a peace with it.  Now everything is all dredged up again and those girls are re-victimized.  Jana looks sad... things Jinger, Jill, or Jessa say now make so much sense... they should have had professional therapy so they could heal properly...you can tell by their body language... really?  By what authority do you make those statements?  Let the show end and let this go.  I am over with this gossip fest where posters gleefully shout 'HYPOCRITE' and 'They're fame whores who will do anything for money.'  Let me make it clear that I abhor what happened and have nothing but sympathy for the victims.  It was criminal.  But I am tired of and disgusted by the poorly hidden joy at the downfall of the Duggar clan.

[3 is enough]

 

Just thought of something that makes my heart sink even more: The Duggar's did and do a lot of traveling. Most of the time, they bunk at friends houses, not hotels or bus/RV parks. This would have allowed a whole lot of intermingling with girls outside of the family. My gut feeling is that there are more victims that weren't included in the police report. Couple that with the fact that it is high political season, I would not be surprised if this turns into a scaled down version of the Cosby Chronicles.

Excellent point.  My other fear is that as he got bolder, he was not satisfied with just fondling the girls.  While I do think this is just the tip of the iceberg, I also think that given the culture any victims were raised in, most will never come forward.

Edited May 25, 2015 by 3 is enough

[Higgins]

Look, there is no excuse for what he did but, he was a repressed child. Almost like imprisoned. He didn't have the reasoning of an adult. I don't think his acts as a child mean he is an adult pedophile. Adolescents are not held to the same legal standards as adults for a reason. All of these kids are victims of emotional abuse and brainwashing, including Josh.

[jschoolgirl]

Its almost like that interview episode was a goodbye to the duggars,complete with tlc allowing the negative comments from the street interviews.

Do you mean the "Digging In" episode? I watched it last night and did not street interview comments.

Edited May 25, 2015 by jschoolgirl

[Chicklet]

I haven't read any real JOY about the pain this family is going through. But if you live by hypocrisy you suffer through hypocrisy. It's repudiation of the Duggars' and their twisted theocracy which hurts their own children most as well as anyone else they can drag into this cult.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Chicklet

[CherryAmes]

But I am tired of and disgusted by the poorly hidden joy at the downfall of the Duggar clan.

 

I am not a regular poster here so perhaps I am not seeing something that is obvious to others but what I am seeing I don't think is joy. People have long been disgusted by the lifestyle the Duggars represent and support and are glad that it's finally been shown up for what it is.  I see a lot of anger being expressed here but also a lot of compassion for the true victims, and those victims are not Josh Duggar and his parents!

[Quilt Fairy]

I was googling around looking for more information about the "trial' and came across this article from Arkansas Online:

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2015/may/22/oldest-of-tv-s-19-kids-admits-to-wrongd/

Edited May 25, 2015 by AmandaPanda
quoting outside comments

[jschoolgirl]

Episodes have been taken off On Demand in HD, but they are still there for non-HD. I'm in D.C., if that makes any difference.

[Julia]

The Duggar clan, led by a politician and well connected in the sphere of politics, have presented themselves for over a decade as spokespeople and role models for their lifestyle and beliefs. They've used that platform to become lobbyists for government action on behalf of the way they think the world ought to be run, all of it on behalf of "family".

 

Finding out that they flagrantly violated not only their own professed ethics but the laws that already exist to protect the family is, JMO, notable. Jim Bob et ux aren't just making bad decisions on behalf of their own family. They're attempting to make them for mine. 

 

And I would very much appreciate it if folks would specifically address with the mods anyone here who they see harming the Duggar children and not make it part of a general accusation.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Julia

[BitterApple]

Look, there is no excuse for what he did but, he was a repressed child. Almost like imprisoned. He didn't have the reasoning of an adult. I don't think his acts as a child mean he is an adult pedophile. Adolescents are not held to the same legal standards as adults for a reason. All of these kids are victims of emotional abuse and brainwashing, including Josh.

I don't either. My hope for Josh is that he gets the treatment he should have received as a teenager.

[GEML]

I've never thought the Duggars did chest binding. If anything, our comments have been that they could use a well fitting bra and wore shirts so tight they were NOT modest recently.

Classic modest in most Fundamentalist is pretty standard - to the knees, to the collarbone, to the elbow. Obviously, the Duggars weren't the most "modest" by any means in this regard, and haven't been even close for years now.

[Aw my lahgs]

Look, there is no excuse for what he did but, he was a repressed child. Almost like imprisoned. He didn't have the reasoning of an adult. I don't think his acts as a child mean he is an adult pedophile. Adolescents are not held to the same legal standards as adults for a reason. All of these kids are victims of emotional abuse and brainwashing, including Josh.

 

 

While all those kids are raised in a terrible environment and subject to brainwashing and oppression, this is not an excuse to become a child molester. Plenty of boys and girls are raised the same way without becoming sexual predators. Also, it is true that teens are held to different legal standards because teens tend to do stupid things ;). In my opinion, this does not apply to molesting multiple young children over a period of years!

 

Please read this article, it is a great article on child molesters. Spot on.  http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1707466/jewish/Things-You-Need-to-Know-About-Child-Molesters.htm

 

Pedophiles and child molesters often start in their teens.

[BostonBlonde]

Here is a comment from "concernedmom" on a blog from 2005.

 

...A few years ago ... the men of the church were meeting after church to discuss my friends teenage daughters apparel. They felt like their blouses were to tight and they should bind their chest up more, go figure. At the same time the son of one of these political men was touching one of my friends teenage daughters in a sexual way as she slept. This was found out and apologies were made although the boy was tempted by the girls tight blouses(lol). The boy was sent to one of the training centers to be punished??? My friends did not return to the home church for quite sometime after this. At this same time, the boy mentioned earlier was betrothed to a girl in the the group, both were 14 at the time. The betrothal was broken by the boys actions. ... Just this last year the family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on the Discovery Channel, at the time they had 14 children and were about to have another and the mom was receiving a mother of the year award from our governor. Since that time the same boy was betrothed again to the same girl. He was working very hard on a campaingn for U.S. Senate for the girls father. The father lost the campaign. He immediately began looking for “sin in the camp”, as that could be the only explanation for the loss. He found that the young man betrothed to his daughter, had committed sexual sins(?) while on the campaign trail. The young man, now 16, was made to stand in fornt of the church and confess his sin. He was then told that the campaign was lost due to his sin. The weight of the world on this poor boys shoulders. I do not know what punishment the church gave but I do know that it was harsh enough for his mother to seek advise outside of the “group”, but she did eventually give in to her husband and the group. The young man and young girls betrothal is now broken. I am I nuts to see this as abuse? And what do you think can be done?

 

Wow just wow. 

 

 

Look, there is no excuse for what he did but, he was a repressed child. Almost like imprisoned. He didn't have the reasoning of an adult. I don't think his acts as a child mean he is an adult pedophile. Adolescents are not held to the same legal standards as adults for a reason. All of these kids are victims of emotional abuse and brainwashing, including Josh.

 

Leave your kids alone with him...see if you feel the same.

Edited May 25, 2015 by BostonBlonde

[NCChic]

Looks like May 26-29 there's an ATI conference in Nashville. The Duggars a featured speakers. I made screen grabs of the program flyer, in case they vanish. The Bateses and Wallers are going to be there too.

I'm rapidly losing faith in humanity. I'm sure they'll go and be welcomed with opened arms.

http://familyconferences.org/

Oh, no. I'm scheduled to be in Nashville this week for a conference as well (definitely not this one). Good thing I packed a couple of maxi dresses and skirts..... Edited May 25, 2015 by NCChic

[Lurking Amanda]

Look, there is no excuse for what he did but, he was a repressed child. Almost like imprisoned. He didn't have the reasoning of an adult. I don't think his acts as a child mean he is an adult pedophile. Adolescents are not held to the same legal standards as adults for a reason. All of these kids are victims of emotional abuse and brainwashing, including Josh.

 

I get that, and at the outset of the recent revelations that was actually somewhat my point of view.  I felt some (admittedly quite limited) sympathy for Josh, although the lion's share of it was reserved for the victims.  Then I realized that the youngest assumed victim would have been five.

 

Five.  My niece is almost five.  Josie is five.  Five.

 

There is just no way to spin that into curiosity, experimentation, playing "doctor", or anything other than molestation.

---------------------------------

Regarding any joy displayed at the downfall of the Duggar clan, I haven't seen that here.  I'm not saying no one here has expressed such thoughts, but if so they are by far in the minority to the point where I have zero recall.  I've certainly seen it on Facebook, but here in this particular forum I've only seen an overwhelming regret that this happened.  No one wanted exposure of the Duggars' hypocrisy to happen in such a fashion, not even for the sake of being "right".

Edited May 25, 2015 by Lurking Amanda

[elainebenis]

TBH, I've been more than a little surprised by how form-fitting the pregnant girls clothing has been. Shirts stretched tiiight over their baby bumps. And boobies.

 

Now, out in the real world this wouldn't raise an eyebrow; but with all the female-modesty-defrauding crap the Duggars regularly spew I can't reconcile how THEY reconcile their professed beliefs with their actions.

[backformore]

Look, there is no excuse for what he did but, he was a repressed child. Almost like imprisoned. He didn't have the reasoning of an adult. I don't think his acts as a child mean he is an adult pedophile. Adolescents are not held to the same legal standards as adults for a reason. All of these kids are victims of emotional abuse and brainwashing, including Josh.

True enough. I have worked with families where some inappropriate sexual contact took place between siblings. The proper thing to do is to limit ALL unsupervised contact between the perpetrator and victims. The offender might stay with a relative during the week, for example. Or at least be with an adult after school. Where the Duggars went wrong was not making sure Josh never was in a position to abuse again. But you are right. A pedophile is an adult whose primary sexual attraction is to children. Josh' s behavior as an adolescent makes him a sex offender, a molestor, but not necessarily a pedophile. His parents needed to do more to protect all the children.

What bothers me a lot about some of the linked articles is that LUST is viewed as equivalent to actions. The idea that having "impure thoughts" is as much of a sin as an action based on those thoughts. To me, that means if you THINK about molesting someone, you've already committed the sin, so why not do the action? (Especially if you're a teenage boy who was brought up to believe this.)

It's a big part of what I hate about this kind of religious thinking. Thoughts are not the same as actions. We might have urges to steal, rape , kill, etc. We are responsible for not acting on those urges. Most of us, no matter our religious upbringing, understand the difference. We hold people responsible for their actions, not their thoughts. But reading some of those linked documents, the Duggars aren't raising their kids like that.

Edited May 25, 2015 by backformore

[Katydid]

If TLC does pitch the compromise of continuing the show but without the Smuggars....won't it be interesting to see how JB and Mechelle respond. Whether they will go for that. As "family" oriented as they claim to be, will they be OK with their precious Joshy and family being excluded?

[AmandaPanda]

We just hid a couple of posts that provided links to a full episode on YouTube. Please do not post links to episodes that have been posted on other sites illegally. 

[doodlebug]

Episodes have been taken off On Demand in HD, but they are still there for non-HD. I'm in D.C

They're still available from On Demand in Cleveland (Cox).  I think it matters who your cable provider is as well as what part of the country.

 

I don't see a lot of joy here, I do think that many of us, including myself, have thought over the years that the Duggars, specifically Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh, were smug hypocrites and I suppose there is some satisfaction in finding out we were correct.  However, I don't think anyone is joyful that the Duggar daughters have been hurt so grievously and we are sickened because many have found their brand of religion to be misogynistic over the years and we ache because we have a feeling those girls were not protected or comforted; but instead blamed and chastised for their brother's deviant behavior.

 

If there really are demons in their part of Arkansas causing wonderful Christians like the Duggar to sin and they need to be driven into a lake, why use hogs?  Why not pack those mean old debbils into some used cars off the Jim Bob's' lot and drive 'em clean into the ocean?  Josh is looking for work, I hear.

[Almost 3000]

I don't think being raised sexually repressed, socially isolated and religiously fundamentalist caused Josh to do what he did but I do think having that patriarchal crown on his head as the favored prince of the family was a big part of it.

We just hid a couple of posts that provided links to a full episode on YouTube. Please do not post links to episodes that have been posted on other sites illegally.

TLC has posted some of the episodes so they are not necessarily illegal.

[RazzleberryPie]

They're off on On Demand, Comcast, western PA.

Edited May 25, 2015 by RazzleberryPie

[BulldogAreGreat]

If TLC does pitch the compromise of continuing the show but without the Smuggars....won't it be interesting to see how JB and Mechelle respond. Whether they will go for that. As "family" oriented as they claim to be, will they be OK with their precious Joshy and family being excluded?

I think they would. As you say, they are "family" oriented. The show has always meant more to them than their own children as far as I can tell. Anything to keep the show and the money coming. They will say it is because they want to continue "spreading their ministry" or whatever it is they say about why they actually have a show. 

[AmandaPanda]

TLC has posted some of the episodes so they are not necessarily illegal.

 

Regardless, the link that was posted was definitely illegal.

[Almost 3000]

Regardless, the link that was posted was definitely illegal.

Got it. I posted a recommendation that was from the TLC YT channel because posters were asking. Anyway, there really is a TLC channel on You Tube with videos of the Duggars including the "Digging with the Duggars" interview.

[JenCarroll]

Do you mean the "Digging In" episode? I watched it last night and did not street interview comments.

It was the episode before Digging In. They aired back to back. Maybe Duggars Guide to Relationships?

[Aethera]

OK folks, things are getting a bit heated here.  Let's all take a deep breath.  A couple of things:

 

1. We may be moving the David Waller discussion to the Sweet Fellowship thread, since we think it more properly belongs there. So if your David Waller nickname-related post disappears, it's not because we hid it, it's because we moved it.  We understand why some folks don't like the nickname, but let's not discuss it here.  We will not be hiding posts with the nickname.  If folks want to discuss changing the nickname, that can be done in the Sweet Fellowship thread. 

 

2. This event has brought up a lot of emotions for a lot of people. People are disgusted, ashamed of their previous support of the Duggars, shocked by the support being shown them by others, worried about the children, mad at TLC, mad at Michelle & JimBob, sick at the situation, worried for Josh, worried for Josh's family, worried about more potential victims, and distressed at having old wounds reopened in their own lives. All of these emotional reactions are valid. I'm sure there are people among our posters who are happy that the Duggars have been brought down, however we are not monsters - I highly doubt anyone here is glad that THIS is what has come out about the Duggars. No one wanted to see this happen. And i have not seen glee expressed in this forum.

 

This is a SAFE SPACE for people to discuss their reactions to the situation.  Please do not chastise people for their opinions or their need to express themselves. And leave the modding to the mods, please! 6 of us are here, reading as fast as we can, keeping up as best we can. If you see something that you feel needs our attention, please REPORT it, do not engage on it.  If you're worried something you have to say might be hidden, PM us and ask if it's ok to post; we'll respond pretty quickly. If you're too angry about what's going on in the thread to follow this request, maybe take a break.

 

Thanks for your understanding, your consideration, your snark, your compassion, and your fresh homemade cookies that can be sent to PTV headquarters, since I'm sure TPTB would share them with us, and not just eat them all, right?

[JenCarroll]

Still available (for purchase) on Amazon Instant Video. And TLC still has the (legal) videos up on YouTube.

[Fallacy]

It's taken me several days of processing to come up with a response to this news. Like everyone else, I am disgusted. Like many here, I was also molested by a family member. But unlike, the victims in this case, I was given a choice about when, where, and how to confront my abuser. What makes me sad this morning is that the victims in this case weren't given a choice 12 years ago, but they also weren't given a choice in 2015. Some sleazy tabloid decided to expose their story to the world, and I can't celebrate that. If In Touch had any sensitivity at all, someone there would have contacted the victims and asked their permission to broadcast the news of their abuse to the world. And no, I'm not talking about protecting the abuser. I am talking about protecting the victims. If In Touch had any decency at all, they would have eliminated the names of the parents from the police report to protect the victims, but nope, they wanted to add another level of vileness to the scandal by revealing that it was incestuous molestation.

 

Having been through this personally, without the pressure of extreme fundamentalism, I can say that, for a period in my life, once the behavior stopped, I preferred pretending that everyone was one big happy family, so I can completely understand why the victims in this case did the same. I am sure that like me that bubble would have burst at some point and they would have confronted their abuser and their parents, but again, it saddens me that the victims here weren't allowed the privacy and dignity to get to that place on their own. In Touch decided that it was more important to have a "GOTCHA!" moment than to let the victims to decide when and how to confront their abuser. Maybe they never wanted to do, and I don't get to judge them for that. Maybe they would have in 5 years or 10 years, but again, I don't get to judge them for that. I'm just so sad that they weren't given a choice, again, and it feels like, at least to me, that the media is re-victimizing them.

 

I don't know if I'm expressing myself well here or not, but hopefully, again, nobody thinks I'm talking about protecting the abuser from the media and public scrutiny. I just find it so tragic that four out of five of his victims were also exposed in the process.

 

 

[sigmaforce86]

You raise an interesting point. They are as obsessed about defrauding and modesty as they ever were. And they do say that their skirts are always supposed to cover the knee, and that their shirts are supposed to not be too tight or low cut. But I'd agree that they push the envelope with both those things. They are completely blind to the fact that their modesty standards are arbitrary, and that by nature of being human beings, they will certainly "defraud" people every day. It's almost like, to them, as long as you follow Gothard's magic but highly arbitrary formula, you're safe from defrauding.

 

 

I'll say this quickly but take discussion to another thread since it risks going off topic - The Church or Gothards and Jim Bob, Michelle and by extension the kids have no idea what modesty is because their version of it isn't societies version.  We've all sort of agreed as a society that for men and women the groin and butt isn't shown in public and for women add in no breasts.  Breast feeding and, in appropriate settings thong bathing suits excluded.  But the Duggar version of modesty isn't about body parts it's about stirring lust.  What they don't recognize is that what makes a man or woman attracted to another person isn't necessarily the part that's between the neck and the knee - some people get off on feet yet the girls wear flip flops and sandals all the time, other people find hair (head or facial depending on the sex or even bald) a turn on. Even in countries were a burka is worn some men get crazy trying to just imagine what is under it.

My point is they're not dressing that way meet or maybe exceed social norms and they can never achieve what they think they're achieving - dressing and presenting in such a way that nobody that sees them is ever tempted or has a lustful or sexual thought.  At some point the person looking at you has to control themselves and you're not responsible if they don't.

[starfire]

mingming, on 24 May 2015 - 9:33 PM, said:

Here is a comment from "concernedmom" on a blog from 2005.

 

...A few years ago ... the men of the church were meeting after church to discuss my friends teenage daughters apparel. They felt like their blouses were to tight and they should bind their chest up more, go figure. At the same time the son of one of these political men was touching one of my friends teenage daughters in a sexual way as she slept. This was found out and apologies were made although the boy was tempted by the girls tight blouses(lol). The boy was sent to one of the training centers to be punished??? My friends did not return to the home church for quite sometime after this. At this same time, the boy mentioned earlier was betrothed to a girl in the the group, both were 14 at the time. The betrothal was broken by the boys actions. ... Just this last year the family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on the Discovery Channel, at the time they had 14 children and were about to have another and the mom was receiving a mother of the year award from our governor. Since that time the same boy was betrothed again to the same girl. He was working very hard on a campaingn for U.S. Senate for the girls father. The father lost the campaign. He immediately began looking for “sin in the camp”, as that could be the only explanation for the loss. He found that the young man betrothed to his daughter, had committed sexual sins(?) while on the campaign trail. The young man, now 16, was made to stand in fornt of the church and confess his sin. He was then told that the campaign was lost due to his sin. The weight of the world on this poor boys shoulders. I do not know what punishment the church gave but I do know that it was harsh enough for his mother to seek advise outside of the “group”, but she did eventually give in to her husband and the group. The young man and young girls betrothal is now broken. I am I nuts to see this as abuse? And what do you think can be done?

This just gets weirder and weirder. If this post is true, does this mean this "friend's teenage daughter" is a potential 6th victim of Josh? My understanding of the victims in the police report is that the oldest one was only 12.

[GEML]

I actually do feel real pity for Josh. Because he lived not only in an environment that no doubt took something that might only have been a little warped and twisted it harder within him, but then pretty much refused to get him real help for it once they found out.

Plenty of people who work with people dealing with what he suffered with have said many people grow into adults who do not go on to act upon such urges as adults. Whether Josh does or not is not something we know, but we know the chances would be much higher if he'd been offered real help.

At some level, he must feel it. I know plenty think of him only as "Smuggar" but if he DID stop, imagine bringing down your entire family, your entire extended family and everything you held dear based upon something that happened when you were only a teenager. That is NOT to minimize what he did, but unless there are further allegations that the abuse continued into adulthood, then yes, I can feel pity. I feel pity for most young people who screw up their lives so badly at the start, actually.

[RazzleberryPie]

If there really are demons in their part of Arkansas causing wonderful Christians like the Duggar to sin and they need to be driven into a lake, why use hogs?  Why not pack those mean old debbils into some used cars off the Jim Bob's' lot and drive 'em clean into the ocean?  Josh is looking for work, I hear.

Hogs because: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%208&version=KJV

 

I think they would. As you say, they are "family" oriented. The show has always meant more to them than their own children as far as I can tell. Anything to keep the show and the money coming. They will say it is because they want to continue "spreading their ministry" or whatever it is they say about why they actually have a show. 

"Family-oriented" and "family values" are meaningless terms to me. Lizzie Bordon was family-oriented. The Borgias and Tudors were family-oriented, and took efforts to "spread their ministry." Even Charles Manson focused on his 'family.'

 

I agree with you that JimBob's top priority is to promote himself. His 19 kids and following all those Gothard rules are just a means to an end.

[CherryAmes]

I feel pity for Josh and also for his parents in the specific situation that happened when he was a teenager.  I don't agree with how they handled it but at least they did try and do something and, to their credit, it sounds like they believed their daughters.  Given their lifestyle and the crap way they approach being female I gotta give them some kudos for that.  However, and this is a big however, given the experience they had it makes the things they've said and done since then, particularly their uneducated and mean natured stance on gay issues even more reprehensible.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Look, there is no excuse for what he did but, he was a repressed child. Almost like imprisoned. He didn't have the reasoning of an adult. I don't think his acts as a child mean he is an adult pedophile. Adolescents are not held to the same legal standards as adults for a reason. All of these kids are victims of emotional abuse and brainwashing, including Josh.

Typically, the age of 14 is considered within the age of reason. At least, in my line of work it is (insurance). Regardless, this isn't a one-time thing. He molested them over a long period of time. At which point, he was over and above the age of reason. As I've said before, this is pathological behaviour that can't be prayed away while doing construction work. His behavior would have only escalated.

I think people would be more understanding of this horrible situation if the Duggars didn't try to dictate how other people live (Catholics, gays, women). These people are rotten to the core and have deemed themselves worthy of being the moral authority of today's society. It was only a matter of time before their downfall and IMO, their will be a lot more secrets to follow.

Edited May 25, 2015 by bigskygirl
Edited out inappropriate sentence about Josh possibly molesting his brothers.

[GEML]

I would be surprised if the age of accountability in the Duggar's world was older than 8. Certainly not older than 10. After all, these children had the benefit of being raised the "right" way.

[elainebenis]

This just gets weirder and weirder. If this post is true, does this mean this "friend's teenage daughter" is a potential 6th victim of Josh? My understanding of the victims in the police report is that the oldest one was only 12.

 

Yeah. The 'sexual sins happened on the campaign trail' part jumped out at me too.

[skippy]

I don't think Anna will divorce Josh. She'd really have nowhere to go. Her parents live in a tiny double-wide. Josh is going to be unemployable for the forseeable future so she won't see much money in alimony or child support. All her kids are under five. She has no education, no work history and no job skills. The most she could hope for is a minimum wage starter job which wouldn't cover diapers let alone rent, food and child care. I feel for Anna but this is a very good lesson to teach your daughters about why you don't say to hell with education/job training and put your entire well being in the hands of your husband. If you're a SAHM with a degree you have that insurance in the event that life implodes.

I agree. Anna will never leave Josh.  Not only would she have nowhere to go, she doesn't have anyone in her life who would encourage her to leave him. Even her own parents and at least one sister (Priscilla) will tell her she must stay, trust that God will take care of everything. She's had 24+ years of Gothard training and conditioning about what it means to be a "Godly wife". She's in it for the long-haul.

[Zung Li]

This just gets weirder and weirder. If this post is true, does this mean this "friend's teenage daughter" is a potential 6th victim of Josh? My understanding of the victims in the police report is that the oldest one was only 12.

I found another post by concernedmom which said pretty much the same thing that I originally posted but with this as well:

 

Then about a year later, my friend decided to go back to the home church and see everyone again. She was appalled at what went on at that particular meeting. An eight year old girl was made by her parents to stand in front of the group and confess the sin of masturbation and ask for punishment(to cleanse her) and forgiveness. My first thought was that this girl had to have been abused if she was truly masturbating, but with the power of these families, what can you do?

[Wellfleet]

I think they would. As you say, they are "family" oriented. The show has always meant more to them than their own children as far as I can tell. Anything to keep the show and the money coming. They will say it is because they want to continue "spreading their ministry" or whatever it is they say about why they actually have a show. 

 

Yep, that probably will be a part of their BS line, if they get the opportunity to forward with the show. I can totally see Boob getting behind this if it keeps the cash rolling in because sadly, you're right. It's about Boob and what he wants. His sense of superiority and entitlement is unparallelled. I can't speak about the days before TLC, but in just about every instance we've ever been shown since, I cannot think of a time when Boob went with something that would be better, or even just more fun, for the kids - over whatever he wanted. Oh, he gets emotional and incredulous about giving a daughter away at her wedding. Please. He abandoned them all a long time ago...

[Literata]

I feel pity for most young people who screw up their lives so badly at the start, actually.

 

I agree with your entire post; so very well said.

 

Boob and MEchelle are of primary responsibility here. Not only did they create an untenable living situation for a bunch of innocent kids, but when one of those children displayed heinously troubled behavior, they absolutely failed his victims, but they also failed him.

 

While it's true that most people whose childhoods are troubled grow up without sexually abusing their siblings, Josh obviously had issues to be addressed, and those most certainly were exacerbated by what probably were constant and inappropriate sexual references and examples. As we've discussed at length, the "sex is evil, but just WAIT until you're like us and you can do it because it's AWESOME" messaging had to be massively confusing, even for children who were not vulnerable to acting out inappropriately. (And it absolutely deserves to be mentioned again that sexual abuse is often learned behavior, and Josh could be a victim as well.)

 

I wish Boob and MEchelle had first validated and sought help for the girls, then found a solid treatment program for Josh, THEN sought the advice of credentialed, secular mental-health professionals for safely re-introducing Josh to the household.

 

The situation was obviously a tragic one, but it could have been dealt with so, so differently. Boob and MEchelle are abysmal parents, and I really do fear for the kids still left at home.

[fliptopbox]

I have DirecTV and there are 3 episodes available on demand. 2 are the behind the scenes ones (the Erica Hill interview and the crew behind the scenes) and the last is Jill's delivery special. I'm ok with those since they don't focus on JB & M or Josh's family. The guide says they're available til 6/16.

[direpup]

Some new Josh Duggar articles, from the "No Longer Quivering" site: 

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2015/05/dear-victims-of-josh-duggar/

[kassygreene]

Still available (for purchase) on Amazon Instant Video. And TLC still has the (legal) videos up on YouTube.

Bear in mind that this is a holiday weekend, and regular business hours don't start until tomorrow (Tuesday).  This is also a holiday that lots of people add vacation days to.  So regular workers aren't in, the people who can make these decisions are not available, and yanking something completely off On Demand is probably above the paygrade of whoever is around - because if someone pulls a show without being authorized, lawyers and lawsuits can happen.

 

Anyway, my provider (Comcast, Florida panhandle) still has 2 or three episodes and 302 (!!!) clips available on line, and 6-8 episodes On Demand.  

 

Having looked that up on my laptop, I suddenly feel like it needs a cleansing.  Or at least a can of air.

[Nijntje]

Ten things every person should be able to affirm in the face of the Duggar family tragedy

 

http://teaminfocus.com.au/ten-things-every-person-should-be-able-to-affirm-in-the-face-of-the-duggar-family-tragedy/