S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, lmsweb said:

I cringed through the Tyrion scene with Grey Worm and Missandei. Even the scene with Varys felt a little off to me.

I think it's the whole "foreign white men take charge of a city that they've been in for a week" thing.  I keep waiting for Missandei to say something or take control.  But then, she's an ex-slave, so compliance is mainly what she knows.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Brn2bwild said:

I think it's the whole "foreign white men take charge of a city that they've been in for a week" thing.  I keep waiting for Missandei to say something or take control.  But then, she's an ex-slave, so compliance is mainly what she knows.

As opposed to the foreign white girl who was taking charge of the city previously?  It's not even like Tyrion wanted the responsibility, he was forced into it.

[huahaha]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Quite liked Smalljon Umber's zero tolerance for Ramsay and Karstark's bullshit...although I wasn't thrilled that apparently TV Karstark is a pedophile ("nice and young...the way Karstark likes them"). Can't he just be an asshole, like most of the male book Karstarks? Does he have to be a pedophile, too?

It read as smack talk to me. Being called a pedophile has replaced other, currently less-pc slurs.

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I think it's the whole "foreign white men take charge of a city that they've been in for a week" thing.  I keep waiting for Missandei to say something or take control.  But then, she's an ex-slave, so compliance is mainly what she knows.

I don't think Tyrion wants this, but no one else is stepping up but masters and slavers.

I think he's trying to get Missandei and GW to come up with solutions or choices, if not those dragons are flying soon.

Edited May 9, 2016 by GrailKing
Ninjaed by Oscirus

[Chris24601]

Well, I let loose string of uncharacteristic expletives at the sight of Shaggydog's head on a spike, but if people are saying it might NOT be Shaggydog I'll stick with that for sanity's sake (that said, the head was the right color and with my luck the aftershow will reveal that it was indeed Shaggydog's head and I'm going to have to scream more expletives).

With all those people wondering how Jon would be changed and making all sorts of wild predictions, I don't think anyone ever considered plain old PTSD (which come to think of it, could just as easily explain Berric saying he always comes back a bit 'less' as well as any sort of metaphysical soul withering could).

I saw upthread people discussing Jon's motives for walking away from the Watch and I think the easiest and most believable reason is just PTSD. He went through a severe betrayal by people he thought respected him and extreme physical trauma. During the executions he seemed to me to be going through the motions, possibly in the hopes that if he could just execute his murderers he'd find some measure of peace.

Only he didn't feel anything but more disturbed by it... just the way he kept staring at Olly's dead face afterwards... I think that was the moment when he finally decided, "Fuck it. I'm Done."

I don't think he even gave any thought to what he was going to do next when he quit, just that he knew he'd never find peace if he continued to be a part of the same organization whose leadership conspired to kill him for his efforts to try and make things better. In that respect Sansa's arrival next episode based on the promos couldn't come at a better time for Jon's sanity. Who better to understand him than another complete PTSD case?

I know they've got Ramsey and trying to rescue Rickon and then the whole army of the dead thing to deal with, but knowing how at least one of those is gonna turn out, my current wish for Jon and Sansa is for them to just grab Ghost and hop a ship to some quiet tropical paradise where they can just HEAL and leave blowing the crap out of the Others to Dany and her dragons.

Of course that means abandoning Rickon and the Wildlings and, well, the entire world, to cruel fates so I know that will never happen... but it deserves to.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Chris24601

[Brn2bwild]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

As opposed to the foreign white girl who was taking charge of the city previously?  It's not even like Tyrion wanted the responsibility, he was forced into it.

Many people, both in the show and in RL, had problems with Dany the White Savior.  That said, at least Dany marched in with an army and killed the oppressors.  Tyrion and Varys weren't in charge of an army, or anything else, before Dany disappeared.  And they knew the least about the city.  But hey, let's turn leadership over to them.*

* And yes, both Tyrion and Varys are cunning and effective by the rules of Westeros, but this is a completely different place, and even Tyrion's reading can't have fully prepared him. 

[FemmyV]

50 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Can I ask why so many people seem to be saying this? This isn't the only place I've seen such sentiment, despite Vaes Dothrak being referenced early on in both the books and the show. Maybe it's just been too long since last we saw it? I guess they didn't explicitly say it was compulsory, but I really don't see the retcon here.

I have a vague recollection that the big reason Dany dropped her ring was because it was associated with her marriage to Drogo and she knew that if she was found by Dothraki, they would use it to recognized as a widow, and she'd be sent there.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, lmsweb said:

He was also suddenly naked as opposed to having a loincloth on, and these things are distracting...

I didn't think he had a loincloth on, just a cloth draped over the critical bits, like in autopsy scenes on network crime dramas (I guess HBO isn't open to that kind of male nudity -- if it was a female character, I doubt there would have been a modesty cloth). When he sat up, the cloth seems to have fallen by the wayside.

I guess the trimming from the ritual explains some of the Haircut Watch on Kit Harington. He did get a haircut, which some were worried meant he was Jon Snow no longer, but it turns out to have been plot-related, and his hair looked noticeably shorter in this episode. He also looked very young and kind of lost.

[Dewey Decimate]

I felt grossly dissatisfied with this ep, but am responding much more positively to it after reading this thread.

Shaggydog's death (unless rumors have been greatly exaggerated) makes me believe that the final series shot will be a smirking Ramsey on the throne, and the camera pulls back to reveal a wall full of stuffed direwolf and dragon heads. Fuck you, you animal-killing writers.

A thousand dead Ollies cannot make up for one direwolf head. Not that it wasn't satisfying to see his pinched little face a'swingin'. I wonder if some of my negative feelings for that little guy were not due to his resemblance to Desi from Girls, another cat-ass-faced dude.

Arya's story feels soooo drawn out; the Hound reference was the best part. And now I'm also a little curious about the true origins of her ugly-apron-colleague-in-arms. She seemed to react to Arya's reference to Walder Frey. Could she be one of the bajillions of daughters/granddaughters?

Speaking of whom, it's funny: I assumed the titular Oathbreaker was either Roose for swearing allegience to then murdering Robb, or Walder with the salt and bread, meat and mead vow or whatnot (hey, Pod, I need some help).

It was nice to see the small council set again, but the casual, almost comedic, attitude felt off in the shitstorm the KL world has turned into. And the whole chair-dragging thing was already done by Tyrion, and done better.

Tyrion's stillborn "I Never" with MissAndGrey was awkward to watch.

Anyone else initially think Qyburn's candy plums were laced with a little Westerosi arsenic? I would have found that so much more awesomely hilarious and horrifying.

Casting for Ned Junior was good in the facial region, but wow, he looked so tiny! Was Ned in his tweens at the TOJ?

More Tormund and Varys, please. Both those guys command the screen.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Dewey Decimate

[kittykat]

I'm glad this episode was a little slower.  After the last two, I needed a breather.  Despite the slow action the episode had a nice flow to it.

Jon and Tormund and Davos, again I'll back that team any day.

I'm firmly in the camp of Umber is using Rickon as a ruse.  I still believe in The North Remembers and There Must Always Be a Stark in Winterfell. Still I don't like what position they have put Osha in.  I'm hoping that isn't Shaggydog either :-(

My feeling is S6 is the North and South disposing of their respective enemies.  The Starks unite to take the Boltons, the Lannisters destroy the the Faith Militant, and then we can have an epic s7 Stark vs Lannister final showdown.  But that's my wishful thinking. And now I'm wondering how the Vale, Dorne and Pyke will fit in all this but that's what makes this so exciting.

I feel like I'm the only one who is enjoying Arya's training.  She's finally focusing, learning to lie, and she's also learning discipline.  The fighting scenes reek of MONTAGE! but even if she decides not to be No One she has still grown to be a disciplined fighter.

So Kevan, Olenna, Pycelle are trying this cool new thing called Running the Realm.  And then they went all Plastic on Jaime and Cersei.  "YOU CAN'T SIT WITH US"  I take it Gregor will probably stand in for Varys when Pycelle and Kevan bite it.  Apparently Mace is back too.

Tower of Joy: loved it.  That was some good fighting with Ned the Young and Arthur Dayne. And Howland Reed finally got mentioned so maybe thats who Jon will find.  Looks like they're gonna keep us hanging on that Other part of the story next week or next.

Next week: Littlefinger, finally

[FemmyV]

I wish I could be as hopeful as those putting forth the idea the whole Rickon thing is a ruse. If it is, it's a really, REALLY bad idea on someone's part. Considering the Umber is aware that Ramsey killed his own father,  he's really going to leave Osha and Rickon in Bolton's charge? Geez, no wonder the North is so fucked up, with brilliant thinking like that.

The scene of Jon coming back to life reminded me of Captain Jack Harkness, equally delightful, nude.

I don't know what's growing faster: the list of corpses, or the use of f-bombs.

I can't wait for A Girl to do just what Jon Snow did and walk out of THOBAW. Enough.

Olly, we hardly knew ye ... and it was enough for your smirking face.

Tyburn is starting to remind me of Willard Stiles.

ToJ: Watching four men go at Dayne and wondering why no one tried slashing at his feet / legs.

Edited May 9, 2016 by FemmyV

[Dev F]

10 minutes ago, Dewey Decimate said:

And now I'm also a little curious about the true origins of her ugly-apron-colleague-in-arms. She seemed to react to Arya's reference to Walder Frey. Could she be one of the bajillions of daughters/granddaughters?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought the end of last season indicated that both she and Jaqen are pretty literally No One -- just personas that can be passed from one acolyte of the Many Faced God to another as necessary. Isn't that the implication of the fact that Jaqen drinks poison and kills himself, only for the Waif to reveal that she is also Jaqen? Or was all of that supposed to be part of Arya's hallucination?

Edited May 9, 2016 by Dev F

[Happy Harpy]

NOOOOOO! Rickon is toasted. I want to believe otherwise, I want to believe it's a long con but 1) it's "You haven't been paying attention" Ramsay and 2) Rickon was already believed dead once so I don't think he'll cheat the Stranger twice. There's no way in hell he gets away from it alive (which prompts me to wonder: are all the Tully-like Stark kids going to bite it eventually?).

I've never wanted so much to be wrong. And Starks and their direwolves dying is so season 3! Ugh.

I loved how they dealt with Jon's resurrection. His confusion, his fears. Tormund hug and Edd hug...I might confess to having misty eyes while smiling like a looney. As for Davos and Jon, they were stellar. Davos's pragmatism and decency are exactly what emo Jon needs to guide him. And Davos will finally get to advise a good and honorable man. I'm glad for the scene where Jon confronted his killers because even though dying changed his perspective (how could it not) it didn't change the good man he is and who was raised by Ned Stark.

I didn't expect the ToJ reveal to happen in one episode so I have no problem with it being delayed. Yes, I want confirmation of R+L=J and if it's indeed true (at this point I don't see how it couldn't, honestly) the mere fact of knowing Jon parentage will be a payoff. But they're probably waiting for a moment when it will have a narrative impact/echo beyond the reveal about one character.  Damn, was Arthur Dayne fucking good with swords. Completely worth the Westerosi hype in my opinion. And phew, Bran as a tree definitely debunked. Still rooting for him as Lord of Winterfell and/or King of the North.

My interest didn't vane during the Mereen scenes ! Varys was great. I was laughing so hard watching Tyrion trying to get Missandei and Grey Worm to relax and have fun. I need scenes like this one, I need a breather here and there when things are so tense everywhere else. I'm looking forward to seeing how Dany will get out of her not golden prison. I feel a deus ex dragon coming, and I can't wait for it, but I suspect there will be more about it, if I can say so considering the size of the anvil about "sacked cities" just when hers is threatened by its neighbors. 

I thought that Cersei was going to have Gregor murder the whole council. I need Jaime away from her and her toxicity, but I do like that he's stepping up to protect his family. He's misguided, but he thinks he's doing to right thing. He and Daryl Dixon have the same idea of strategy, but I was quite pleased at the notion of Dirty Old Grand Pope (now with mommy issues) getting his head squashed.  Tommen is sweet, but he's an idiot.

I, for one, loved Arya's scenes. I've always thought that she couldn't kill the Hound because she didn't truly want to anymore; and she couldn't kill someone without a reason to hate him. She didn't forget that he killed her friend, but she was grateful that he protected her. I'm glad to see it confirmed. I also like that her skills feel earned and not just thrown in her lap. "Four brothers"...oh my baby, you always considered Jon as your true brother. Plus, M.Williams's acting is always a joy to watch for me. One thing struck me. When Jaqen appeared, and as she left, I had the feeling that the Waif looked dismayed. I had the fleeting impression that Arya completing her training might mean her death, I don't know why. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Oscirus]

29 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Many people, both in the show and in RL, had problems with Dany the White Savior.  That said, at least Dany marched in with an army and killed the oppressors.  Tyrion and Varys weren't in charge of an army, or anything else, before Dany disappeared.  And they knew the least about the city.  But hey, let's turn leadership over to them.*

* And yes, both Tyrion and Varys are cunning and effective by the rules of Westeros, but this is a completely different place, and even Tyrion's reading can't have fully prepared him. 

Tyrion's only in charge to serve as a proxy for Dany. I'm pretty sure that as soon as she returns that he'll gladly give it back.

Tyrion's not fully prepared.  He and Varys are trying desperately to avoid a war in Mereen despite the fact that everybody apparently wants it. He's trying to help Dany but she's a hard act to follow especially  when she's spent most of her rule ruling with fear and violence.

 

If Rickon was part of a con game then they wouldn't have handed over the real Rickon. Also, Osha's not needed for that con to work either. Umber's basically trying to get Ramsey's assistance without promising anything to him. Rickon's nothing to him so why not use Rickon to seal the deal?

Edited May 9, 2016 by Oscirus

[Ambrosefolly]

Ramsey knows that Rickon is still a kid, so another kid would have to be used. If Rickon was in on the con, and knowing what happened to the two farm boys and him being a Stark and shit, I think he wouldn't want someone else possibly dying in his place, especially if Osha was going to be sent in as well. Though knowing D&D, he will probably be killed in the first 5 minutes next episode.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[GreyBunny]

The Tower of Joy, that was the dumbest fight scene.  Instead of wielding Dawn, Arthur was a cheesy show-off with two swords.  The only thing that was passable was Howland getting him from behind, which is how I suspect it will play out in the books.

So Jon hanged them instead of beheading them - they squandered yet another opportunity for, "Edd, fetch me a block."  The hanging was dumb as they should have had them drop from a height to snap their necks, not just fall a few inches to strangle and flail around.

I'm really hoping for the Osha-Umbers long con, in the books the Umbers and Manderleys are conspiring behind the Boltons' backs and I'd like to see that upheld in the show.  I think Umber's refusal to kneel is a hint to this - he takes oaths seriously and he wasn't going to break an oath no matter who he swore it to so it's easier on his honor to stick it to Ramsay if he doesn't kneel to him in the first place.  

Edited May 9, 2016 by GreyBunny

[Minneapple]

Tower of Joy! As much as I wanted them to actually extend this Very Important Event over many episodes, I actually yelled when Bran came out of the vision. NO I WANT TO SEE LYANNA DAMMIT. 

I loved Arthur Dayne. But I was disappointed that he had two swords. His sword Dawn is supposed to be legendary. Couldn't they get, like, a glowy sword? Interesting how the battle played out, though, with Howland Reed killing him from behind instead of Ned being the one to kill him. Poor Bran looked so disappointed. 

I cheered when Jon said "fuck it" to the Night's Watch, but I really want him to hang out with Tormund and Davos some more. 

Jaime and Cersei irritate me to no end. Shut up, Cersei.

I'm going to be really irritated if Ramsey lives out the season. Whichever character kills him becomes my new favorite character.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Minneapple

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion's only in charge to serve as a proxy for Dany. I'm pretty sure that as soon as she returns that he'll gladly give it back.

Tyrion's not fully prepared.  He and Varys are trying desperately to avoid a war in Mereen despite the fact that everybody apparently wants it. He's trying to help Dany but she's a hard act to follow especially  when she's spent most of her rule ruling with fear and violence.

But at the time she disappeared, I don't think he had a formal role on her counsel.  He was basically her guest.  Missandei had been with her longer and knew the situation better.

[Bannon]

I've been ok with the degree of Ramsay's torture lust the writer's have chosen to explicitly show, up until now. I think it really made Theon's psychological destruction more credible. Having said that, if the writers delivered yet another Stark to Ramsay to torture, that really will be boring, and there are already too many story arcs which are tedious; the one that really puts me to sleep is Dany back among the Dothraki.

These writers aren't inspiring a lot of confidence now, as they forge new, GRRM-free, territory, so I hope they can resolve the Stark-Bolton conflict in a better way than what is indicated so far.

[mrspidey]

5 hours ago, snowblossom2 said:

What the hell? What about the North Remembers? That's a huge part of the books so why would turn over Rickon?!?! I am not happy. I thought maybe it was a way to infiltrate and kill Ramsey but that doesn't seem to be the case :( Show - you are ruining the North storyline

Well, Mance is dead and we need someone for the pink letter. 

Also, Jon? I think you forgot a few. I counted six stabs, not four. Don't tell me the other two were the ones who randomly got killed by Tormund and Wun Wun last week. That would way too convenient. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by mrspidey

[Howdyphillip]

20 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Well, Mance is dead and we need someone for the pink letter. 

Also, Jon? I think you forgot a few. I counted six stabs, not four. Don't tell me the other two were the ones who randomly got killed by Tormund and Wun Wun last week. That would way too convenient. 

Well, the guys that got killed in the Wun Wun attack were also the only two to attack him. Maybe those two guys were the only ones to have the bones in them not only to attack a giant, but also murder the Lord Commander. 

[patchwork]

I'm more than willing to believe that the Umbers are playing Ramsey but unless Rickon has been getting some Arya style assassin training (off screen like I really wish hers had been) handing him over just seems like a bad idea. Doing so means the Umbers are in good with Ramsey without having to swear loyalty but Rickon is as good as dead now. 

Maybe this is a version of the Fake Arya plot where Ramsey will be lead to believe that Rickon isn't really Rickon but letting people believe that he is will strengthen Ramsey's shaky hold on the North and he can use her baby brother to lure Sansa back. 

A male Stark is competition but a Stark wife and Bolton/Stark heir is exactly what Ramsey needs to stay in power. I can see how this benefits the Umbers, even if they are planning a double cross, and Ramsey but all it gets Rickon is imprisoned in his ancestral home and probable death. 

I really, really hope we haven't just been cheated out of Sansa and Jon reuniting, I need something good to happen to the Starks!  

[mrspidey]

I think the interesting thing to note about Meereen is that the Sons of the Harpy are financed and steered by Astapor and Yunkai. Will we get our battle for Meereen after all? Not this season, of course, but the next?

[placate]

3 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

Benjen is not ahead of Ned to be Lord of Winterfell. Ned is the second born son and older than Benjen so he's Lord of the North. 

My bad, I think I was confusing him with Aegon the Unlikely.

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

One thing I did like - that they are just straight up calling FrankenGregor Gregor Clegane. None of this Robert Strong crap. One thing GRRM has too much of is identity switches, this person is really that person, fake names, all that crap.

I noticed that too which amused me.  I like Jaime being snarky.  He has always been skeptical of Qyburn.  

Can't wait to meet Sam's mom.  And Lord Tarly.  I like book Lord Tarly.  He is horrible to Sam but a practical military man.  I liked his no nonsense. 

[loki567]

1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

I think the interesting thing to note about Meereen is that the Sons of the Harpy are financed and steered by Astapor and Yunkai. Will we get our battle for Meereen after all? Not this season, of course, but the next?

The writers have said there's 10 to 15 episodes left so I can't imagine there's enough time to do that properly. Maybe the Slaver cities are about to attack Meereen and Dany swoops in with the Dothraki, assuming that's where the storyline's going, to take them all out. I think Dany's probably on her way to Westeros by the end of this season. 

[BooBear]

A girl is mostly frustrated by the slow pace this show seems to be taking when there are so few episodes left.  Why did we need to spend all that time with Tyrion? Why so much wasted time with Cersi - and the Sparrow.  Seemingly lots of filler.

- I did love the joke that Jon might be changed because he cracked a joke. I loved that he remembered what happened and killed the traitors. If only in real life people could do that.

- I enjoy Arya's story. Not sure what they are trying to train her to do or be but seems like she is moving forward.

- Enjoyed seeing young Ned. Good casting.

- One question about the Dani story, wasn't she supposed to be staying in Mereen to learn how to Govern? If Tyrion governs...she won't have learned much.

- OMG, Ramsey is too much of a Villian. If they don't kill him soon I could hurt myself trying to kill him via my tv. Someone please put me out of my misery?

[wallflower75]

I must be in the minority, because I'm actually enjoying the Arya scenes.  Yes, in this ep it seemed more montage than anything else, but I can't help but think she's going to take what she learns here, return to being Arya, and attempt to carry out her vengeance.  (She still remembers the list, after all.)  I liked how she was conflicted about whether or not she wanted the Hound to die.  It is that hesitation that gives me hope Arya won't come out of this as a soulless killer.  She got to know someone on her list, someone who wasn't as bad as she thought, and she had some regrets at the end about leaving him behind.  This isn't to say she'll give up her vengeance, or that the other people on her list don't deserve it--if there's a god(s), she gets to kill Walder Frey for killing her mother and brother just as she was so close to finding them again.

Is it just me, or do there seem to be more f-bombs flying?  Maybe I'm noticing them more because we're now past the books??

The Tyrion scene made me cringe.  Drinking games?  Really? It felt so out of place in this world.

Count me as someone who prays that that wasn't Shaggydog, and that turning over Rickon to Ramsey is a long con--albeit one that seems foolish and risky.  If you know he's a patricidal sociopath, why would you risk handing over one of the last Starks to him, even if it's to set him up??

I knew there was no way they were going to go THERE with the Tower of Joy scene.  No way.  That reveal has been too long in coming for it to happen this soon in the season.  Having said that, I like Bran's storyline so far.

And Jon.  Oh, Jon.  The minute he started taking off the cloak, I knew he was done and said to myself, "And now his watch is ended."  Then he said the same thing!  Hell yeah!!  Two questions, though--does the Night's Watch let him go so easily, even though he's technically correct?  And if so, where does Jon go from here?

[Advance35]

Really liked tonights episode.  Well most of it anyway.

Dany: Go away, stay away, so I can forget all about you please.  This girl has bored the hell out of me since Season 2/Book 2.  I don't care if she ever gets to Westeros and would actually prefer she didn't as I don't want her to get the Iron Throne in the end.  Easily one of the top 3 most boring characters in the entire series.

Arya:  Another one of the most boring characters.   Would love for her to stay in Bravos so I never have to see or hear about her again. Bored by her list, bored by her travels, bored by everything about this nuisance of a character.  If we can't write her off or kill her off can we please have her off screen for the next 7 episodes?

Tyrion:  A wonderfully charismatic actor stuck holding the bag of Dany's nonsense storyline.  Such a shame.

Loved the Small Council scene.  And wonderful to see Olenna Tyrell  back in the game.   And what do you know?  She's maneuvered herself onto the Small Council.  I have know doubt she's pressing things to House Tyrell's advantage.   And she gets a front row seat to even more Lannister infighting.  "Margaery is the Queen.  You are not the Queen.  I can appreciate that it's confusing" LMAO.   Cersei's speech to Qyburn is why I actually am not rooting for the Lannister's to destroy the Faith Militant.  She takes great joy in the misfortune of others but the shoe on the other foot and she want's to have them marked for retribution.  Ugh.  And Tommen's "She's suffered enough".  Tell that to Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Sansa, all of the people Joffrey had slaughtered during his time on the throne.  She doesn't get to see Myrcella's resting place???? BooHoo. What about the Mother's of Robert's bastards.

Nice plot twist with Ramsay.  I'm someone that doesn't care about the Starks as a whole.  And I've always kind of been bored with Rickon and the idea that he'll just be swanned in to rule Winterfell.  So predictable, it's boring to me.  So whether he makes it or not, doesn't matter to me.  I just want it to be interesting and so far so good on that score.   Ramsay seemed suprisingly composed, ALMOST Lordly.  Can't wait to see what he's up to now.   I place money on him circulating that he has custody of Rickon Stark in an effort to lure Sansa back to where he can get to her.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Advance35
unfinished

[roguetamlin]

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It just occurred to me. Is Jon not going to be at Castle Black when Sansa, Brienne, and Pod arrive? Because that would be fucked up.

I'm assuming he'll need to pack up his gear and get a horse ready and so on, so they still may get there before he leaves. Also, Davos and Melisandre probably will want to leave with him or catch up with him. What other reason will they have to hang around Castle Black?

[cambridgeguy]

The Umbers have to be playing some con, right?  The Boltons didn't really suffer any losses fighting Stannis so the combined might of the Boltons, Karstarks, and Umbers would be enough to beat the wildlings unless they've got a bunch of giants hiding somewhere.  That being said, Osha and Rickon are going to be in for a world of pain. 

I guess they ran out of money for Gerold Hightower?  Or is he keeping an eye on Lyanna in the tower? 

[kieyra]

6 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Ramsey knows that Rickon is still a kid, so another kid would have to be used. If Rickon was in on the con, and knowing what happened to the two farm boys and him being a Stark and shit, I think he wouldn't want someone else possibly dying in his place, especially if Osha was going to be sent in as well. Though knowing D&D, he will probably be killed in the first 5 minutes next episode.

 Come now. Like they'd only give Ramsey *five minutes* of screen time to torture and kill someone. 

[Macbeth]

While I think it is not beyond Varys to hurt children for the good of the realm, he was threatening that woman's child, I never believed the books that he would cut out his birds' tongues.  How would they sing?  I can't believe they can read or write.  I don't see them running around with quill, ink, and a note pad.  That never made sense.

Given that another Stark completely screwed the north with Jon letting the Wildings in, it's completely believable that the North would rally around Ramsey to fight the Watch.  They would deal with him later, but now...

And Jon leaving is the most believable outcome given what happened to him.  And I am sure he was told that it was only a few members of the Watch that were willing to take on the traitors, and they needed the Wildings to come in to assist.  I feel bad for him.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I can't believe they can read or write. 

Why?  Teaching some kids to read is pretty easy compared to many of the things he's done.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

10 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

That is not Lord Umber who would never betray the Starks

And further, this fellow is not the Greatjon, but some-other-Umber.  My son reminded me of all this -- the GreatJon (on the Show) was that very large man who guffawed when Robb chopped off the Greatjon's fingers, or some such thing.  And after that was ever-loyal.

Bannermen loyalty is so integral to the ethos of the books.  It is sad-making that Show is utterly trashing the character of the Northerners.   In fact, disregarding all the regional distinctions, now.  (Unless Rickon's betrayal is a ruse.)

[Haleth]

I'll write more after reading the posts but my initial thought?  Ooooh, Shimpy's going to be so mad!

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

9 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

The "My watch has ended" earned a "hell yeah, it has" from me. 

Sigh.  But Jon's leavetaking speeds the fall of the Wall.  As the Wall stands only so long as one of the Night Watch remains true.  (That's right, right?  Per Nan?)  

My son points out that the Wall has to fall, in order for dragons and Promised Princes to eradicate all White Walkers forever.  

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

And phew, Bran as a tree definitely debunked. Still rooting for him...

So you don't want Bran to be a tree, but you are "rooting" for him?

Hmmmm.

[nodorothyparker]

The more I think about the entire Meereen/Varys/Tyrion situation, the more pointless the entire story feels.  I get it that Tyrion and Varys who is there for some unknown reason want to continue hanging out in a nice cushy pyramid until Dany inevitably shows back up with yet another army she's somehow convinced to follow her because she's just so darn compelling with her 20 titles and endless threats to burn her enemies alive.  But the people don't want you there.  They don't want your foreign queen.  She and Drogon had been gone from the arena maybe all of five minutes when the masters had reclaimed power in the other conquered cities and now they're banding together with outside money to do the same in Meereen.  

Since it's doubtful that Tyrion or Varys ever had any long term interest in ruling this part of the world and have even less of a claim to it than she does and Dany's stated purpose there all along has been to learn how to rule, which she's obviously not doing, what are any of them even doing there at this point except stalling for time?  Is there any contingency plan at all if Jorah and Daario don't find Dany or she just never comes back?  You guys are allegedly still planning on head back to Westeros at some point, right?  Right?

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The more I think about the entire Meereen/Varys/Tyrion situation, the more pointless the entire story feels.  I get it that Tyrion and Varys who is there for some unknown reason want to continue hanging out in a nice cushy pyramid until Dany inevitably shows back up with yet another army she's somehow convinced to follow her because she's just so darn compelling with her 20 titles and endless threats to burn her enemies alive.  But the people don't want you there.  They don't want your foreign queen.  She and Drogon had been gone from the arena maybe all of five minutes when the masters had reclaimed power in the other conquered cities and now they're banding together with outside money to do the same in Meereen.  

Since it's doubtful that Tyrion or Varys ever had any long term interest in ruling this part of the world and have even less of a claim to it than she does and Dany's stated purpose there all along has been to learn how to rule, which she's obviously not doing, what are any of them even doing there at this point except stalling for time?  Is there any contingency plan at all if Jorah and Daario don't find Dany or she just never comes back?  You guys are allegedly still planning on head back to Westeros at some point, right?  Right?

We saw in the first episode that plenty of people do want Daenerys, given the Red Priest's preaching.  Moreover, if they leave, then the slavers probably reassert themselves.

If Dany doesn't come back, why would Tyrion and Varys return to Westeros?  It's not like they have any other options.

[nodorothyparker]

The slavers have already reasserted themselves.  They've taken back the earlier cities she's conquered and per last night's conversation are now pouring money into taking back Meereen as well.  The graffiti in the premier made it pretty clear that at least some don't consider Dany any better than the masters.

The show's never provided a real clear sense of how widespread the faith of the Red God even is in the east.  Sure, we've seen priests or priestesses preaching about Dany in a couple of isolated scenes these past two seasons but they could very well be viewed as random weirdos the way Mel and Thoros have been for most of their run in Westeros.  Dany's never shown any interest and there simply isn't enough context to conclude much of anything.

I still don't know why Varys is in Meereen.  Tyrion can't go back without a regime change but Varys seems to be there just to have somebody to snark with.

[benteen]

I have to say, this was the first episode in quite a while where I was REALLY eager to see the next episode immediately.  Not that I'm not to a certain extent but I really want to see where this is going.

-Jon Snow is back!  Poor bastard, it really looks like death has rattled him and it's understandable.  I liked the scene with Tormund and Edd and we finally got some Tormund cock humor! ;)  Ser Alliser's last words was actually a really good scene and I'm glad Owen Teale got one more strong moment to go out on.  The sight of him and Olly hanging at the end was really disturbing.  Jon quitting the Night's Watch makes sense and Edd's the new Lord Commander!  Death does kind of end all oaths and he was essentially kicked out last season.  It make sense too that they'll need someone to stay at Castle Black to keep an eye on the Wildlings when Jon heads South.  Jon had BETTER be there when Sansa comes to the Wall and I don't want to hear that he missed her by 20 minutes.  Time for Jon, Brienne, Davos, Tormund, Sansa and Wun Wun to head to Winterfell.

-I have a new name for Bloodraven...historical cocktease! ;)  I knew we wouldn't get to see what happened when Ned got into the Tower.  Hopefully we will this season.  I definitely understand why it's been drawn out.  Though I didn't realize until someone pointed it out that it would have been appropriate to have "met" Jon Snow's mother on Mother's Day.

Despite some changes, the Tower of Joy was awesome.  Great fight.  Ser Arthur was a badass and I kind of laughed at Bran's disappointment to realize that Ned didn't actually defeat him in that fight.  I laughed too when Bloodraven said that he didn't blame Bran for not wanting to be a tree.

Glad to see Sam return and look forward to his return home.

Nice to see Varys in action although the Tyrion, Grey Worm and Missandhi scene was fucking bizarre.  I think I was starting to lose patience with Tyrion's scene this season until they found out who was behind the Sons of the Harpy.  Hopefully it means things will pick up in Meereen.

Glad the Qyburn and the kids scene wasn't as creepy as first feared.  I'm still annoyed that Jaime is completely behind Cersei in what she's doing.  Hopefully, as Cersei becomes more and more unhinged (which we are seeing signs of) he'll FINALLY turn away from her.  Nice to see Olenna back and King's Landing is filled with interesting characters again.

Jonathan Pryce is killing again as the High Sparrow.  He played Tommen so perfectly and that is one of the things that makes him so dangerous because he can be so disarming.

I have a bad feeling about the Rickon and Osha storyline.  I do find it frustrating though that this seems to kill The North Remembers storyline for good.  Just about every Northern lord is being portrayed as treasonous or evil, which is the furthest from the truth.  D&D have chose to ignore a great storyline and the only Northern storyline they've shown any interest in adapting was having Sansa raped, which wasn't even in technically in the books.

I really DO hope TV Umber is playing a version of Manderly's long game but I'm not holding my breath.

The added FX budget has REALLY benefitted the look of Vaes Dothrak.

[Tikichick]

Very relieved to find a relatively normal Jon Snow.

Really ready to be done with the Ramsey storyline, I just can't anymore.  Hopeful that Rickon is a gift Ramsey will be wishing he gave back and Shaggy will in fact be making a surprise appearance.

Definitely noticed the doubletake of her "trainer" when Arya spit out Walder Frey's name.  Curious where that's going.

A small detail that stood out to me was the shot of the horses' hooves when Ned & Co. were on the way to the TOJ.  For about ten seconds I was confused simply by the display of flora and fauna and wondering where in the world these horses were where it was so distinctly summer.  Really drives home the whole "winter is coming" thing.

Bran's reaction to Howland taking out Ser Arthur really stood out.  He cannot seem to accept it based on what he's always been told -- but of course it's likely that skirmish is tied to a very big lie his father told him and everyone else for the rest of his life, so who's to say Ned lying about that victory really means anything.

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Again, I don't believe Umber is a traitor. Period.  He's Lord Manderey.   You know how I can tell?  Good looking guy.  Clean hair.  This show seldom bothers to cast the attractive as villains. 

Hmm, I don't know about that.  Bolton Sr, Tywin, Cersei...Very attractive people.  Joff was a handsome lad.  A lot of people think Ramsey is good looking (but I think he looks like a demented Hobbit).

9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Strangely, I noticed that Tommen and Sansa have almost identical voices - accent, tone, and inflection.  They're both such lambs.  Perhaps they were separated at birth.

Oh, no.  Don't start THAT rumor!  LOL

It was... different that the monster kingsguard was identified as Clegane.  But I guess since his skull didn't have to be sent to Dorne it didn't matter that he was not pronounced dead.  (I look forward to finding out what's under the helmet in the book.)

The Tyrion scene with Missy and GreyWorm was terrible.  What a waste of a few minutes when there was so much to cover in so many places.  

I liked that Thorne remained convinced that his actions were for the good of the NW and he went to his death proudly.  

Fantastic mic drop moment for Jon.  Also loved the ToJ and look forward to seeing the conclusion.  I very much hate the Umber betrayal.  Having them turn on Jon for letting the Wildlings in is not a good enough reason to hand a child, the last living male heir to their liege, over to a psychopath.  I don't know about this being a long con, short con, or any kinda con.  I think the show writers are setting up Jon as being the only leader, facing the adversity of the whole North.  (It will kill me if Manderly betrays the Starks too.)  It makes no sense that all the bannermen would throw in with Ramsey even if Jon's army consists entirely of Wildlings.  It's bad writing meant to shine a light on one character.

[SFoster21]

I was hoping that Danny would be offered a bath after they stripped her.  Guess not.

[stillshimpy]

I'm more than willing to believe that the Umbers are playing Ramsey but unless Rickon has been getting some Arya style assassin training (off screen like I really wish hers had been) handing him over just seems like a bad idea. Doing so means the Umbers are in good with Ramsey without having to swear loyalty but Rickon is as good as dead now.

No, not necessarily.  Here's the thing:  Theon Greyjoy took "credit" for killing the Stark boys.  Ramsay is bound to actually be in deep shit with at least some of the Northmen (and we actually did have it outlined by Roose that that might be the case, before Ramsay KILLED him) .  

Want to gain favor?  "I have found the rightful heir to Winterfell and am protecting him!  Come see him, in all his 'in one piece' glory and know that I am worthy of being the Warden of the North and of your loyalty.  Rumors of my monsterism are greatly exaggerated."  

Also, Book Osha and Series Osha are not really the same person.  Even Martin said the actor playing Osha brought something to the role he hadn't envisioned and it influenced how he wrote her.  In the series Osha has repeatedly risked her life to save Bran and Rickon.  She swore an Oath to Robb.  We've no reason to believe she didn't mean it and kind of a lot to support that she did.   She was taking two kids and a simple-minded half-giant towards safety when she met up with the Reeds and only left them when Bran told her to.  

Sure, self-preservation runs deep in most on this show, but it has demonstrably not in Osha since she swore that oath and has taken a multitude of passes on ditching the dead weight kids (in one case, literally) to save her neck.  It's possible that Umber really did kidnap Rickon, and kill Shaggy Dog, but Osha being alive enough to be there really suggests that it's equally possible they are there to do something else.  

I personally had zero problems with Howland Reed stabbing Arthur Dayne in the back of the head, to save Ned.   It's supposed to be honorable to stand by and let your friend be slaughtered, after watching your companions die left and right?  Yeah, not buying that and frankly thought Bran's surprise that it was different than whatever legend he had been told (and it wouldn't have been by Ned, I would think) was childish.  

However, I thought it was just setting the stage for him to find out that there's a world of difference between the family legends he was told by a variety of people in the household and what really went down.  

I keep forgetting to comment on how awesome Varys, but he truly was.  Sadly the King's Landing plot and the Dany plot just were yawners for me.  Not nearly as much tedium as the entire gig with Gilly and Sam.  

As proof that the characters in the books often have little relationship to the characters in the show, book Sam "My father's....my father, but my mother and sisters..." etc.  and there was zero fear in Sam's voice at that.    Book Sam nearly shits himself every time he even thinks of his father.   

[Attaboy000]

So, finally we get the Tower of Joy scene. I dunno if it played it scene for scene, shot for shot like in the book (can't remember now), but the important dialogue was there, and I was on the edge of my seat as soon as the first shot of 5 riders approaching 2 towers showed up. I knew instantly what it was.

I have a feeling that the Rickon angle with Umber is a ruse. The wolf head isn't the dire wolf. I feel like Ramsay is getting played. After all, The North Remembers.

[mac123x]

Where does it say in the books that Varys removes the tongues from his little birds?  I know he talks about teaching them to read so they can sneak into people's homes/businesses and read the contents of their letters, etc.  I would think they'd be able to report better and more quickly if they could still talk.

 

I wish I could be as hopeful as those putting forth the idea the whole Rickon thing is a ruse. If it is, it's a really, REALLY bad idea on someone's part. Considering the Umber is aware that Ramsey killed his own father,  he's really going to leave Osha and Rickon in Bolton's charge?

I think the idea that the Umbers are playing Ramsey is wishful thinking.  "First, we give him Rickon Stark as a hostage / torture victim.  Then when Ramsey least expects it we... um... "  It's a very Underpants Gnome plan.

 

I'm pretty sure Lord Umber is exactly what he appears to be.  The writers don't seem to care to provide any depth to tertiary characters.

[benteen]

In regards to Tommen's voice, I think it's starting to resemble Joffrey's.

[SeanC]

28 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I still don't know why Varys is in Meereen.  Tyrion can't go back without a regime change but Varys seems to be there just to have somebody to snark with.

He's there because he wants to back Dany, and doesn't have any other options.