S07.E10: Playdates

[whatsatool]

Oh dear the crickets.

[Shermie]

Not a bad ep, but way too much crammed in, as usual. 22 minutes is not enough to time for 4 1/2 plots involving 12 regular characters and 8 guest stars with speaking roles. Just too much.

I guess Barbra literally phoned in her lines.

I did think it was funny when the old guy kept including Jay in his pop culture references when he was clearly a generation older. I guess once you hit a certain age, old is old? Reminds me of a local seniors group that starts at 55 (it began back when people only lived to 70) but now has members into their 90s who complain that the young seniors don't want to join. Maybe because they don't want to be in a group with their parents? Duh.

The timing was weird, but that seems to be par for this show. Is it Saturday? These people lead very odd lives - no one works or does housework or has activities or volunteers? They just lollygag all day? Phil and Claire were finished their meal, which I assume would be leisurely, and Cam is just setting the table for lunch. Huh?

[MaryMitch]

That old guy was Orson Bean - I looked it up, he's 87!  I remember him from "To Tell the Truth" back in the 60s, but he was also a regular on "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman".

 

I'm glad Mitch was smart enough to realize that they didn't have anything planned for him, and he at least he got to talk to "Barbra".

[kat165]

Thank you, MaryMitch! I knew that voice from somewhere but I didn't recognize him. Good for him, still working & seemingly healthy & well with it.

 

I liked that we got to see all of the families, everyone present. Lilly was cute flirting with the father. I really like Mitch so it was nice to see him get more screentime.

 

The Claire/Phil story was sort of boring, but for some reason the cricket thing made me laugh. Such a guy thing to do (I have 2 brothers).

 

That birthday/egg song was kind of catchy. It's been awhile since that kid (Nolan Gould) made me sort of chuckle (sorry, it's been so long I've forgotten his character's name). Manny's story was kind of lame though.

Edited January 8, 2016 by kat165

[VCRTracking]

I liked the twist in the storyline with the husband played by Keegan-Michael Key from Key & Peele. It was so ridiculously immature but also so Phil.

 

The storyline with Mitchell and the kids was sweet and his enthusiasm for meeting Barbra Streisand(if only her voice) was cute.

 

I immediately knew Lily was talking about the dad and not the kid as the person she was crushing on. It was still worth it to hear Cameron had a crush on a statue of a Confederate soldier!

 

I remember Orson Bean from Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman as well but he'll always be the voice of both Bilbo and Frodo from the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings animated movies from the late 70s!

Edited January 7, 2016 by VCRTracking

[jjj]

I loved this episode -- liked it when it was happening, then loved the payoff of the cricket bet -- which was compounded by the *current* cricket bet!  And the same technique was used in the tag, when we thought the joke was about Netflix discs, and Orson was the one who mentioned streaming.

 

I was at a public event two years ago with a very eminent and beloved politician in his late 80s, and another one in his late 60s -- and a young intern was gushing to both of them, which was fine, until she said something about "your generation", and the gentleman in his 60s so desperately was saying that he was not *that* generation, while trying so hard not to insult the truly eminent more senior politician.  I thought of that the whole way through this -- it was really on the mark.

 

Ray Liotta was a very good sport about being the second banana on the birthday fun day. 

 

And Alex's skepticism about the map continued through the Liotta segment.  Really good continuity/story threads throughout.  Lily was SO inappropriate with the other father -- so scary!

[possibilities]

It's good they're finding things for Mitch and Cam to do that don't involve fighting with each other, but a little sad it means separating them completely.

[Artsda]

Liked it, especially with everyone on dates theme. The crickets were hilarious. Loved seeing Mr. Bray from Dr. Quinn. 

 

No Andy or Andy/Hayley relationship was a plus.

[indeed]

I enjoyed Mitch and Cam in separate storylines. Cam wasn't as annoying and self-centered as he usually is (IMO) and Mitch looked to actually be having fun and didn't snark as much (if at all). It was nice having him hang out with his nieces and nephew for a change--even if they dropped the ball big time regarding the gift (all's well that ends well, though). But seriously, Haley, feed the damn cat!

Wouldn't mind seeing more KMK and Phil.

Refreshing to see Ray Liotta...I mean, Ray...in something light for a change. Alex should've at least recognized his name/films even if she hadn't seen him in anything (hard to miss him now at least with all those commercials for his new show).

[JasmineFlower]

Didn't know where the Claire/Phil story was going, but ended up loving it. Crickets! Always thrilled to see Keegan. Haven't seen Christine Lakin in ages, she looks great! Looks exactly as she should, but you never know these days when people get way too much done when it's not necessary, great to see her looking like herself. She wasn't the focus, but nice to see her.

 

The old husband talking about D-Day and assuming Jay could be old enough to be in WWII had me dying. As did Jay's clarifications on his age - "more like your dead daughter's day, may she rest in peace."

 

Cam giving inappropriate flirting tips to his extremely young daughter definitely had me laughing. "The cute ones rarely are, God doesn't give with both hands." Delivered perfectly.

 

Manny's stuff was lame, but his non-existent mustache did make me laugh with Gloria getting close and seeing nothing.

 

I love how great of an uncle Mitchell is. Ray Liotta was a great sport, and loved that although most of the movies he listed were huge hits, they really were a bit ago. Loved him remembering his "funny uncle" and helping out with Mitchell's gift.

[Everleigh]

Pretty good episode. I liked that all family members had something to do, although Manny's mustache was definitely the week spot. 

 

The cricket bet being the reason Phil was paying for dinner was really unexpected and actually quite funny. As was Jay trying to separate himself from the older man and Ray Liotta trying to get the kids to recognize him.

 

Shouldn't Alex be at college? I know her school is close enough for her to come home on weekends but she seems to hanging around home a lot more than I'd expect from a college freshman at a competitive school. Unless she's still on winter break. 

 

Alex or whoever pointing out that Mitch gives the best gifts was a nice bit of continuity. Didn't he give Alex something really thoughtful for her graduation while Claire was struggling to come up with something? 

Edited January 7, 2016 by Everleigh

[Trichromatic]

Mitch and Cam killed it! Mitchell's "when I tell this story, she sings happy birthday" had me snorting into my coffee. And Cam and Lily were the perfect balance of sweet father/daughter and inappropriate humour. The confederate soldier crush had me in stitches and Lily's flirting was so good it was scary. I didn't quite get what the deal was with the over-sharing Canadian mom though.

 

So so glad we left Hayley's love mess behind this week.

[mwell345]

I liked it, and I have been critical of it all season. The only interaction between the separate families was with Mitch and the kids, though, and I think the interaction between the families (ie dinner at Jay's, etc) was what made this show so good.

 

Of course, the other plus was no Andy.   As Melissa Gorga would say "Thank You Jesus!"

[readster]

 

Alex should've at least recognized his name/films even if she hadn't seen him in anything (hard to miss him now at least with all those commercials for his new show).

I can actually believe that with them, Haley was born in 1995 and Alex in 97 and Luke around 2000. Ray's movies were way before that and I don't see Phil owning them. Seeing them back in the day, oh sure, but not something he be pointing out with his kids when he was busy watching High School Musical and other stuff to show he was the cool dad who liked their stuff. Something that they do since the show started was act like some of these people live in a bubble and don't know celebs or certain references. It was like with Jay talking about the famous people he had as clients in his rolodex and Mitch didn't know any of them. When they would have been on TV and movies when they were growing up. There was even a reference with Cam not knowing a certain football player back in season 3, for someone like Cam would have known him in a second. 

   Its the classic, writing the characters to fit the plot when normally the characters would know or understand it, but they took their stupid pills that day. I have to agree, Cam and Mitch have really had great story lines this season, but it has beens separate, which means the writers seem to do it better that way. Another sign of the show needing to start moving on to an ending.

[Eolivet]

Wow, I've been a big fan of the season thus far, but I found this episode pretty weak.

 

I don't think Jesse Tyler Ferguson does well in a large group -- he either gets lost or he goes over the top. Nolan Gould disappears into the woodwork. Those two need scenes with one other person to play off (he's better in the Manny/Luke scenes, and timing-wise, Ferguson works best with one of the adults). I loved the Alex/Mitchell Christmas interactions from a few episodes back, but this felt like both too much and not enough at the same time. When it's all three kids, they need a "bigger" or more natural presence to play off -- like their parents. Adding Ray Liotta didn't help things. This just did not work for me.

 

I felt the Jay and "older dad" storyline was contrived, as well -- sometimes those storylines end up being more sweet than funny, but this felt predictable, unfunny and not even all that touching? So...I didn't get it? Cam and Lily was also very predictable -- the only thing that saved that was calling out the racist joke and Cam recounting his crush on a statue.

 

Phil and Claire's story was the only one that worked for me -- I don't know if it's the acting, the timing or what -- but the crickets was so amazingly out of left field and at the same time, it was actually funny. The timing just always works so well with those two.

 

I'm all for them trying "new pairings/groupings," but like all things, some work better than others.

[AriAu]

That old guy was Orson Bean - I looked it up, he's 87!  I remember him from "To Tell the Truth" back in the 60s, but he was also a regular on "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman".

 

He seems to have the old guy with young wife spot nailed down-he had the same role in 2 and 1/2 Men a few years back (in the Charlie Sheen vintage) where he even brags about the stars he banged in his day that Charlie had not heard of.

 

Unmemorable episode other than Barbra's voice appearance. Not good, not bad, not memorable.

[ari333]

He seems to have the old guy with young wife spot nailed down-he had the same role in 2 and 1/2 Men a few years back (in the Charlie Sheen vintage) where he even brags about the stars he banged in his day that Charlie had not heard of.

 

Unmemorable episode other than Barbra's voice appearance. Not good, not bad, not memorable.

 

And Orson was old husband on King of Queens IIRC. Anyway, I like any eppy (almost) that is not  rerun, so there's that.

 

Loved Lily

[Gulftastic]

They got very lucky with Lilly 2.0. The girl is developing into a fine little comedienne.

[SandyToes]

Died at the cricket business! When it started, I was afraid is was a rehash of an old (really old) Dick Van Dyke show.  But then surprise! And the bit at the end was really the icing on the cake.  Lily's flirting caught me off guard, too. Really funny. 

 

Rewound and watched the "Fill 'er up!" scene a couple of times.  Just a lot of surprises for me in this one. I don't watch it like I used to, but if this is an indication of how this season is going, I may jump back in.

[tennisgurl]

Thank God Mitch knew they had forgotten the whole time, or I would have called foul. I liked that plot a lot, and I thought it was sweet how hard the kids were trying to give Mitch a nice day, even if they pretty much dropped the ball. Luke and the omelette dance is probably as likable as he has been in ages. 

 

Overall, I thought it was a solid outing. The cricket thing was gross, but it was very Phil. And as annoying as Jays Old Man insecurities can be sometimes, I did feel for him this time. Boomers are very particular about their generation, and I get not wanting to be lumped into another one. I know people who fight over whether or not they are technically millennials, so I cant judge too harshly. Plus, I`m with Jay on the DVDs you order. You cant stream everything! I still order DVDs to my house, and I`m in my 20s. 

[Feline Queen]

If that really was Barbra, I'm surprised she'd allow herself to be portrayed so rudely. If it was just a voice impersonator, I wonder how they got clearance to portray her so badly. (Assuming they bothered to do that.)

 

I did laugh at Jay being insulted that the other older dad thought they were the same age. But really, once you get to a certain point - old is old. The child who plays Joe is unfortunate looking. 

[peeayebee]

I liked the twist in the storyline with the husband played by Keegan-Michael Key from Key & Peele. It was so ridiculously immature but also so Phil.

The twist really surprised and pleased me, too. I'm glad the guy turned out not to be stingy. 

 

I also liked Ray Liotta and that he was so nice to Mitchell.

 

ETA - I read that Barbra S was going to be on the show, so I'm sure that was her voice.

Edited January 7, 2016 by peeayebee

[seacliffsal]

This was a refreshing episode for me. Gloria was speaking at a normal level and I could really understand her desire to be friends with someone close to her age. A lot of focus is on Jay as an older parent so it was refreshing to have Gloria voice her concerns. I also enjoyed the lack of sniping between Cam and Mitchell-so, separate storylines it is... It was nice to have a reference to the upstairs apartment and renting it out. Was this the first reference this season? Also liked that Mitchell, being a good sport, got a birthday present that will delight him for a lifetime.

[biakbiak]

It was nice to have a reference to the upstairs apartment and renting it out. Was this the first reference this season? Also liked that Mitchell, being a good sport, got a birthday present that will delight him for a lifetime.

It's been mentioned a few times, it's an Air BNB situation, there was an episode where their guests were frat guys and Cam ended up stealing a goat.

[CleoCaesar]

22 minutes is not enough to time for 4 1/2 plots involving 12 regular characters and 8 guest stars with speaking roles. Just too much.

 

Exactly. They really need to start cutting entire plots from episodes - like in this one, what exactly would have been lost if Manny's mustache nonsense was cut? Nothing. Dumb non-stories like that one don't add anything and just add clutter to too-busy episodes. Actually same goes for the "Lily has a crush" subplot.

 

Three is probably the perfect number of storylines for a 21-minute-long episode. This episode would have felt much more cohesive and well-paced if it had been the main two stories (Mitchell's birthday and Phil and Claire's lunch) with a small subplot (Jay's playdate).

[SandyToes]

ETA - I read that Barbra S was going to be on the show, so I'm sure that was her voice.

 

 

I wondered about it too, so checked the credits. She's listed as a guest star in tiny type at the end. 

[MaryHedwig]

Three is probably the perfect number of storylines for a 21-minute-long episode. This episode would have felt much more cohesive and well-paced if it had been the main two stories (Mitchell's birthday and Phil and Claire's lunch) with a small subplot (Jay's playdate).

I think there was gold to be found in Joey's playdate. And I heard a lot of discussion around the work water cooler the next day about being "young old" (Jay) and "old old" (Orson Bean).

 

Lily and Manny's stories had similar themes: awkward maturation moments. I liked Lily's and Cameron's interactions together. I think the flirting with the adult turned to  creepy because a girl playing Lily is such a darn good actor. On some subconscious level this thought was forming for me: "On my God, she is (innocently) attracted to an adult male and is now living with two adult males she is not (biologically) related to."  Not that anything inappropriate did (or will) happen, the great acting just made me forget for a moment that I was not watching real life.

 

Regarding Manny's mustache, I agree that that was a wasted story for Manny. I assumed that the story was going to end with Gloria not seeing his mustache due to her ongoing denial that Manny was becoming a man, and that she was old enough to be the mother of one. Wasn't the mustache clear enough for even us to see?

 

If the mustache story was considered essential, I would have loved it to end with some interaction between Manny, Jay, and Orson Bean regarding the perils of shaving, maybe with a retreat of the three to the bathroom for a quick lesson. Maybe with one or all of them could have rejoined their families with a wad of tissue paper attached to a shaving cut on their lip. Heck, it could have end with Manny helping to shave the spots missed on Orson Bean's face.

[Driad]

Glad Cam stopped Lily from further flirting (I hope). Some child molesters claim things like "the child flirted with me, she was asking for it." Not meaning to give such people any excuses, but safer for Lily if she is less flirty.

[Squirrely]

I really enjoyed the Canadian guy's "It's 55 degrees; I'm not wearing long pants." Living in a part of the US that can get damn cold, that's just how we are once spring hits or we visit somewhere warm during winter.

Loved the crickets. It's nice when we get a glimpse of the comedic genius that used to be Modern Family's norm.

[AnnaRose]

If that really was Barbra, I'm surprised she'd allow herself to be portrayed so rudely. If it was just a voice impersonator, I wonder how they got clearance to portray her so badly. (Assuming they bothered to do that.)

 

...The child who plays Joe is unfortunate looking. 

 

First of all, I have to say that I think little Joe is adorable.  And he does a great job delivering his lines IMO, especially for someone so young.

 

As for the Barbra thing... Eh, I can see how some viewers would see it as rude, but at the same time I think Barbra was being a good sport in going along with it, and also... I can kind of see how huge stars might think it's probably good to be portrayed being rather curt to a stranger showing up at their home.  If they were super friendly and invited them in, they would probably risk more run-ins with pushy/crazy fans who don't understand that even famous people deserve privacy.   All that to say, it didn't bother me, and I thought it was cool that she did a voice cameo.

 

Ray Liotta was pretty awesome though, and I enjoyed the dynamic of the kids with their uncle.

 

And I agree with the poster above that Gloria was much more tolerable here.  Jay's storyline was pretty good, and I enjoyed Phil and Claire's also.   I laughed out loud when the credit card flew right over to the check and the waiter scooped it up.   Crickets.  Yuck!  I can't remember which show forum it was, but I think someone posted a link to cricket protein powder... so maybe Claire would feel better if she knew people eat ground-up crickets on purpose.  Nah, probably not.

 

All in all, this was one of the more enjoyable episodes for me.

[hoodooznoodooz]

I think one entrepreneur tried to pitch cricket powder on Shark Tank.

Orson Bean was also in Being John Malkovich.

[MaryMitch]

As for the Barbra thing... Eh, I can see how some viewers would see it as rude, but at the same time I think Barbra was being a good sport in going along with it, and also... I can kind of see how huge stars might think it's probably good to be portrayed being rather curt to a stranger showing up at their home.  If they were super friendly and invited them in, they would probably risk more run-ins with pushy/crazy fans who don't understand that even famous people deserve privacy.   All that to say, it didn't bother me, and I thought it was cool that she did a voice cameo.

Yeah, I agree with that. Although I would have loved to see Mitch meet Barbra!

[needschocolate]

It's been mentioned a few times, it's an Air BNB situation, there was an episode where their guests were frat guys and Cam ended up stealing a goat.

 

And there was the French family and "making the French toast"

[Lone Wolf]

Refreshing to see Ray Liotta...I mean, Ray...in something light for a change. Alex should've at least recognized his name/films even if she hadn't seen him in anything (hard to miss him now at least with all those commercials for his new show).

Kind of by osmosis I knew that he and JLo had a new show that debuted this week, but that was about all I knew - I was waiting for his appearance to turn into a plug, a la when JFK Jr. appeared as himself on Murphy Brown and plugged George magazine (I'm old.  But not as old as Orson Bean.  Or, for that matter, Jay). Annywaaay...it turns out that the new show is on NBC and ABC probably wouldn't want to plug it, so that answers that..unless it was supposed to be some kind of subliminal thing. 

 

As for the Barbra thing... Eh, I can see how some viewers would see it as rude, but at the same time I think Barbra was being a good sport in going along with it, and also... I can kind of see how huge stars might think it's probably good to be portrayed being rather curt to a stranger showing up at their home.  If they were super friendly and invited them in, they would probably risk more run-ins with pushy/crazy fans who don't understand that even famous people deserve privacy.   All that to say, it didn't bother me, and I thought it was cool that she did a voice cameo.

 

 

 

I thought it would have been a little closer to the plot if James Brolin had come out of the house instead of Liotta, and hilarity ensued.  But Brolin's show is on CBS, so no cross promotion happening there, either.  I read recently that it was trendy now for stars to poke fun at themselves by doing cameos as a-hole version of themselves, e.g., Neil Patrick Harris in the Harold & Kumar movies or just about everybody in Curb Your Enthusiasm, so there may have been a touch of that behind Babs' voice demeanor also (she sometimes seems to want to project an image of not taking herself too seriously, e.g., her walk-on SNL appearance back in the early '90's.  Again, yes, I'm old.) Either way, a not a bad "get" for the show.

 

I thought it was very Luke of him to suggest knocking Mitchell out in order to buy so more time.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Lone Wolf

[Cementhead]

I knew that he and JLo had a new show that debuted this week, but that was about all I knew - I was waiting for his appearance to turn into a plug

I totally thought the same thing and even pulled up my onscreen tv schedule to see what network his new show was on and was really surprised it was NBC and not ABC.   Even if he didn't go into full-on plugging his new show-mode, I thought for sure his appearance alone was sort of a plug for his new job at NBC.  But nope.  Go figure. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Cementhead

[DrSpaceman73]

I enjoyed the episode for the most part.

Using Ray Liotta for that role was pretty genius. He pretty much became the character he played in Goodfellas. Older guy that used to be famous and nobody knows anymore. I know him from Goodfellas and after that, not sure I could name anything I have seen him in since, except some cameo appearances.

I wasn't sure if that was really Barbara Streisand's voice. I guess so.

The other older couple creeped me out because he really is too old to believe he has her as a wife, unless she is just in it for the money. I am sure if we didn't know Jay and Gloria so well it might be the same, maybe, but even so, those too very much gave off a much creepier and more obvious gold digging vibe with it.

I still think Lilly is hilarious. Her calling cam's laughing racist I found funny.

[Thog]

 

I think one entrepreneur tried to pitch cricket powder on Shark Tank.

It's not actually that unusual. A restaurant in my town makes an awesome margarita with Chapulin salt on the rim, which is basically crushed crickets and spices. But of course they tell you that when you order it so you're not surprised by it or tricked into it by your husband. I thought that was a great reveal.

[Lone Wolf]

 

 

Alex or whoever pointing out that Mitch gives the best gifts was a nice bit of continuity. Didn't he give Alex something really thoughtful for her graduation while Claire was struggling to come up with something? 

He gave her a scrapbook with every note and photo that she had ever given him, which overwhelmed whatever it was that Claire had planned to give her.  Don't ask me how I know that. Maybe because I have a special bond with my niece as well.

 

The other older couple creeped me out because he really is too old to believe he has her as a wife, unless she is just in it for the money. I am sure if we didn't know Jay and Gloria so well it might be the same, maybe, but even so, those too very much gave off a much creepier and more obvious gold digging vibe with it.

 

Agreed. That was some Anna Nicole Smith/J. Howard Marshall shit right there.

[Blakeston]

I kept thinking about was how sad it was that the little boy would almost certainly lose his father before turning 10. And Orson Bean's character really was a dick to keep implying that Jay was his age, when it obviously bothered Jay (and Jay is clearly significantly younger than him).

I still loved that storyline, though. Jay's irritation was hilarious.

[jhlipton]

That old guy was Orson Bean - I looked it up, he's 87!

 

He looks pretty good for 87.

 

[M]aybe Claire would feel better if she knew people eat ground-up crickets on purpose.  Nah, probably not.

People eat whole crickets (and grasshoppers) on purpose, as well. High in protein for its size and almost always abundant. There's at least one restaurant here in LA that serves whole grasshoppers.

[Mister Pibb]

He seems to have the old guy with young wife spot nailed down-he had the same role in 2 and 1/2 Men a few years back (in the Charlie Sheen vintage) where he even brags about the stars he banged in his day that Charlie had not heard of.

 

He should have that role nailed down...in real life, Orson is married to Alley Mills (the mom on The Wonder Years) - she's 23 years younger!

[biakbiak]

Since we know nothing about them other than their ages, gold digger never once crossed my mind.

[4leafclover]

Really, one of the best episodes Modern Family has had in ages.  I loved the conversation between Cam and Lily while he was doing her nails--"yeah, I get it.  I'm Asian."  Hilarious and cute.   And Cam taking Lily into her room to tell her to stop flirting was great parenting--explaining that he was mistaken with the advice he gave her earlier and that he understood her confusion.  We hardly ever see good parenting on TV anymore, especially with the younger kids.  We also hardly ever see Cam acting like a grown up anymore.  So that was refreshing.

Edited January 10, 2016 by 4leafclover

[VCRTracking]

I'm still laughing at the way Keegan-Michael Key said "Baby I couldn't take that chance!" when his wife yelled at him that he let her eat six crickets when he could have won the bet at four! I hope his character comes back.

Edited January 11, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Your Aunt Tilly]

On some subconscious level this thought was forming for me: "On my God, she is (innocently) attracted to an adult male and is now living with two adult males she is not (biologically) related to."  Not that anything inappropriate did (or will) happen, the great acting just made me forget for a moment that I was not watching real life.

 

 

 

I don't understand what her non-biological relationship to her dads has to do with anything.  They are her dads and becoming attracted to adult men doesn't change that.  I'm not biologically related to my dad or my brothers but I didn't become confused about our relationship when I started becoming attracted to adult males.

[MaryMitch]

Lots of little girls have crushes on adult men. Ask any male kindergarten teacher.

[indeed]

Younger Lily had a crush on Manny. Her tastes are maturing with her age apparently.

[VCRTracking]

I'm a guy and had crushes on adult women even when I was 8, I don't see why girls can't crush on adult men.

Edited January 12, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ChimmyChai]

It's normal for kids to crush on adults because the adults are supposed to be unavailable.  It's a way for kids to try out their social skills in a safe environment.  They can't do it with kids their own age because those kids don't have any better social skills.  The adult is supposed to know that it's just kids being kids and not get involved and 99.9999% of the time that's how it works.