S04.E10: You've Changed, Man

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

The group works to negotiate an afterlife plan with Sean and the judge.

Original air date: 1/9/20

[bros402]

So excited.

If it is a line of dialogue, I'm thinking "You've changed, man" is said by the Judge to Chidi. Don't know why, but I am thinking it is the case.

(If you somehow know who says it, don't spoil it please)

[SoMuchTV]

7 hours ago, bros402 said:

So excited.

If it is a line of dialogue, I'm thinking "You've changed, man" is said by the Judge to Chidi. Don't know why, but I am thinking it is the case.

(If you somehow know who says it, don't spoil it please)

Pure speculation here, but when I saw the title, my first thought was that the "man" referred to mankind, and "You've changed" was a reference to the fact that the old points system was no longer appropriate.

[bros402]

16 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Pure speculation here, but when I saw the title, my first thought was that the "man" referred to mankind, and "You've changed" was a reference to the fact that the old points system was no longer appropriate.

Oooh, that is a good guess.

[Kiddvideo]

This episode airs at 8:30 not 9:00. I hadn’t seen the time change promoted anywhere and would’ve been pretty irritated if I’d missed it!

[Chaos Theory]

The best part of the episode for me was the scene between Michael and Shawn where Shawn admits  how much he enjoyed being evil again once Michael turned traitor and Michael reminded him that he had to know something about the system was wrong otherwise he would never have let him do the original experiment.

I also really liked that the group was willing to let Shawn torture them forever to get their version of the afterlife.

All the Janet voids were entertaining. 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[phalange]

Help, I can’t stop singing, “Gonna erase the eaaaaarth.” 

Everyone, including Michael, offering themselves up to the Bad Place in exchange for the rest of humanity is some beautiful character evolution from S1. 

I swear my heart just about dropped into my stomach when Jason tossed the clicker. Can you imagine if they finally got Shawn to agree only for Jason to accidentally press the button? 

 

 

[Loandbehold]

"Joanie loves Tchotchkes." Worth it just for that pun. 

So, the plan is to develop purgatory. Or deathly reincarnation. 

[SoMuchTV]

Disco Janet marbelizes into a disco ball marble. 

[Harvey]

It's frustrating that demons apparently can become more good or reasonable but the Good Place higher beings seem completely incapable of growing or seeing sense.

[tennisgurl]

23 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Disco Janet marbelizes into a disco ball marble. 

She commits. 

"That is totally wrong, but you got there in a roundabout way" is kind of Jason in a nutshell. 

I loved the last scene with Michael and Shawn, where Shawn admitted that he actually liked having Michael as an enemy and doesent want to stop fighting him. Its kind of sweet, in a bizarre Bad Place kind of way. Who is The Joker without Batman anyway? Also a good call back to the original neighborhood and Michael's plan. Even then, Shawn knew that something was off, and its been established that many demons do actually think that they're doing an important job in the cosmic order, even if that job involves butt spiders, so this all does seem in character, as weird as it is. 

The whole gang being willing to be tortured forever to save the rest of the world was really great, they really have grown so much! They are all living proof that people are capable of change, if they get the chance, and it sounds like the new system could allow for that. It sounds a bit like reincarnation, or Purgatory, which is what I thought could be the twist back in season one for awhile. So we are creating a Purgatory style system to deal with earthly issues and work out sins before moving on?

Timothy Olyphant sighting! Oh pardon me, thats Tim! So great seeing him pop up here! He even brought the hat! 

I too want to hear that story Eleanor. 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by tennisgurl

[MissL]

I started clapping and laughing the minute I realized Timothy Olyphant was coming. That’s almost all I needed but the rest was awesome too. 

“Gonna erase the earrrrrth.”

[BobH]

It'll be interesting to see if we actually get to see some Good Place architects in the next episode, and if they turn out to be any more reasonable than the Committee members. Presumably they've been just sitting by for several hundred years with no humans to design for. Also, is this plan retroactive to people already in the Bad Place? Or does Jeremy Bearimy make that not pertinent?

[secnarf]

2 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

So, the plan is to develop purgatory. Or deathly reincarnation. 

I'm kind of disappointed. I had predicted this ages ago, and I prefer when the show zigs when I expect it to zag. This was really the only logical conclusion, though.

[grawlix]

2 hours ago, phalange said:

Help, I can’t stop singing, “Gonna erase the eaaaaarth.”

 

Love that Anita Ward's 1979 "Ring My Bell" gets a breath of new life.

[The Companion]

This episode had me trying not to wake the baby. It was hilarious. The Jacksonville plea bargain. The complaint that corkscrewing eyes gets old. Timothy Olyphant interrupting. The software updat on the computer. I can't even come close to naming all the hilarious moments. It was The Good Place at its finest.

I loved that Chidi finally became decisive. His simple declaration that he loved Eleanor. His newfound confidence. His desire for soft pretzels (nummy nummy num, or whatever ridiculous thing he said). 😂

Hooray for Michael reading the situation clearly. Honestly, hooray for the whole team. It was so much fun to watch.

[bros402]

That episode was so good - and Timothy Olyphant? AMAZING

tbh I am sort of surprised it wasn't Mark Harmon, given the judge talking about NCIS in season 2

[Mibbitmaker]

Instead of, necessarily, it being a form of purgatory, the plan would be a specific variant of reincarnation similar to the movie Groundhog Day, only instead of one day, it's an entire lifetime.  It's surprisingly very close to an idea I've had of another possibility of what comes after: each person being that person, only after they die they go back to their conception and start over again, and again, etc.  Allowing for free will - everyone's - there would be differences each time. The Good Place version adds the Groundhog Day element of improvement each time with an eventual heaven destination (for most, anyway)

 

I also thought of another movie, Justifying Your Life, while watching tonight as well.

[thuganomics85]

The Good Place is finally back and in the home stretch, folks!

Loved that they got Timothy Olyphant to make a cameo after all of the remarks and references from The Judge about him.  Even had him in the Raylan gear, accent, and everything!  While any Olyphant is great Olyphant in my book, Justified really is probably my favorite work from him.  Great show.  If nothing else, I do admire The Judge's taste on that front!

Definitely interested in Chidi's plan about there being some kind of purgatory or death incarceration, where humans who did wrong on Earth do have to serve time, but actually have a shot at reform and whatnot.  I always thought that would be an interesting idea about the afterlife instead of the normal "Heaven or Hell" aspects.  Of course, there is probably going to be a lot that needs to be done to make it work, but I'm optimistic Team Cockroach will put it off!

Confident Chidi is great.  Eleanor is so digging it!

Aww, Shawn admits that he actually enjoys the challenge Michael brings him!  Strangely touching and even sweet for a demon like him.  Again, I know I might praise him a bit too much, but Marc Evan Jackson is just a damn treasure in this role (or, really, any role!)

Loved the continues references about Florida from Jason, like the "Jacksonville Plea Bargain", the time he stole a Wiener truck, and the time he got attacked by a snapping turtle when he was spray painting a Taco Bell.  Jason's lived the life!

Speaking of living a life, I really do want to know more about Tahani's negotiations with Bruno Mars, Lebron James, and (I think) Dr. Ruth Westheimer that somehow led to Lebron performing surgery and Dr. Ruth apparently writing some of "Uptown Funk", but not getting the credit she deserved!

Seeing all of the Janet voids was great.  Favorite part was the billboard from a freaking twelfth version of Pirates of the Caribbean in one of the Bad Janet's void.  I'm actually surprised that hasn't happened yet, but there is time.  

Can't wait to see how this all plays out!

[AnimeMania]

"Turn the music down!" Oh, I forgot this is the Bad Janet Void.

[Bill1978]

Because it has be so long between episodes, is there any significance with the 4 random Yes people of The Good Place? Should I have recognised them? 

[ishcabibble]

I don’t know how I feel about the afterlife redesign. I like it in theory, but I have a hard time believing that Shawn would go for a plan that would not include sending at least some people to the Bad Place for traditional torture. Especially after how much the demons started complaining in the fake Good Place reboots about how they’re not actors. 
 

I have figured for a while now that some sort of purgatory would be included, but that that people would have a finite period of time to show whether they should go to the Good or Bad Place. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by ishcabibble
Additional thoughts

[Wanda]

1 hour ago, Bill1978 said:

Because it has be so long between episodes, is there any significance with the 4 random Yes people of The Good Place? Should I have recognised them? 

It’s the same committee that was useless when Michael et al snuck into the good place in season 3. He invited them to see the Judge make her ruling.

[Ailianna]

9 hours ago, Harvey said:

It's frustrating that demons apparently can become more good or reasonable but the Good Place higher beings seem completely incapable of growing or seeing sense.

Of course, we haven't really had any meaningful interaction with them.  It's possible that if they were to actually have to live with humans, or in a neighborhood, that they too could grow.  I wonder if we will see any of that in the next (too few!) episodes.

[Panopticon]

There were parts of the episode I really enjoyed. Jason explaining the trolley problem. Shawn breaking glasses and blowing up puppies. Eleanor and Chidi glancing at each other with adoration but no internal angst. Disco Janet marbleizing into a a disco ball.

That said, the show felt very mechanical to me. It's as if it has billed itself as "social commentary with fart jokes" for so long that it has become as much literally rather than just metaphorically. There are always actual fart jokes (as opposed to some other kind of lowbrow humor) which are extended past the point of being funny. And the good place people refusing to do anything but concede is so heavy-handed that it's not thoughtful; it's just depressing. For the first time, I'm glad that the show is ending, because the creative momentum has been reduced to a formula.

[Chaos Theory]

10 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

 

So, the plan is to develop purgatory. Or deathly reincarnation. 

Well that is just Plan A thought up on the fly.  I am thinking it might evolve to a form of the torture the original group faces in season one.   Some people grew like Brent  (even in small ways). Others didn’t like Simone.     It would be far more interesting if Demons like Shawn got to torture middle of the road humans with their own worst instincts and if they grew out of it they either moved on to the good place or got reincarnation.   The big issue for me is what to do with humans who refuse to grow.  

[ishcabibble]

50 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The big issue for me is what to do with humans who refuse to grow.  

This is where I’m at and why I would have liked for them to include a stopping point where someone goes to the Bad Place if they show no signs of improvement after X number of reboots. 
 

Otherwise, I loved this episode and thought it was one if the funniest of the series!

[Catfi9ht]

11 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

"Joanie loves Tchotchkes." Worth it just for that pun. 

Also, the large restaurant behind them in that same scene was "Ponzu Scheme" which we saw briefly in one of the episodes that featured alot of reboots next to a Sushi and The Banshees cart. Screenshot from the original episode below.

Great observations from everyone! I continue to adore all the little flourishes the actors and crew continue to add to each episode which makes this show extremely special.

I don't really have anything else to add other than I'm not going to speculate because I want to enjoy the rest of the show without assumptions or possible spoilers.

[mammaM]

🎶🎶Gonna erase the eeeeeeaaaaaarrrrth🎶🎶🎶

I just wanted to sing along with everyone. I love this show💗💗

[jcin617]

11 hours ago, Harvey said:

It's frustrating that demons apparently can become more good or reasonable but the Good Place higher beings seem completely incapable of growing or seeing sense.

 

2 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Of course, we haven't really had any meaningful interaction with them.  It's possible that if they were to actually have to live with humans, or in a neighborhood, that they too could grow.  I wonder if we will see any of that in the next (too few!) episodes.

I was just going to say the same thing.  Demons have been interacting with most of humanity (since no one goes to the Good Place anymore) and a wide variety of types of humans (good, bad and everything in-between).    The Good Place is completely static.

Edited January 10, 2020 by jcin617

[LBS]

Great episode!  I'm so glad it is back but sad because we only have 4 more episodes.  My favorite throwaway shot was when Jason calls out Michael for not writing "bummer" down and then there is a brief moment of an exasperated Michael showing Jason that he did write it down.   I'm going to miss those moments!

[chitowngirl]

Mindy’s peace and quiet are about to be disrupted!!

[Gregg247]

It sounds like they're coming up with a plan similar to "Defending Your Life", a great Albert Brooks/Meryl Streep comedy from 1990.  People die and are forced to go on trial in the afterlife, assigned a defense lawyer and facing a prosecutor trying to prove that this person hasn't managed to conquer their fears during their life, and should be sent back to Earth to try again vs. moving on to a higher, better form of existence with higher brain capacity.  It's so funny and charming, and Rip Torn is fantastic as the defense attorney!

[Traveller519]

15 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

"Joanie loves Tchotchkes." Worth it just for that pun. 

So, the plan is to develop purgatory. Or deathly reincarnation. 

And their motto:

"Fragile Trinkets for the Happiest Days"

I don't know if Megan Amram is still the primary writer for these, but she's going to need a creative outlet when the show ends!

 

Even I'm all hot and bothered by this Chidi.

/Eleanor makes a good point

/Chidi swoops in to kiss her passionately, "Do you want to get out of here?"

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Traveller519

[sharifa70]

5 hours ago, ishcabibble said:

I don’t know how I feel about the afterlife redesign. I like it in theory, but I have a hard time believing that Shawn would go for a plan that would not include sending at least some people to the Bad Place for traditional torture. 

I thought the plan was to add a third place?

Really, really good people (highest points) still go to the Good Place

People with negative points still go to the Bad Place for torture?

New: Medium Place (I don’t think they named it that but the idea was sparked by Eleanor’s original medium place comment) where people can have a chance to learn and improve the way Our Four did?

[Rinaldo]

14 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

So, the plan is to develop purgatory. Or deathly reincarnation. 

As @Mibbitmaker said, it's not really Purgatory (in Catholic doctrine, Purgatory is for people who are definitely Heaven-bound but need further purification -- in the proposed scheme, it's conceded that there will be some who never make any improvement, and go to the Bad Place eventually after repeated testing). But it does have resemblance to the idea of reincarnation... or, as several have said, Defending Your Life.

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Loved that they got Timothy Olyphant to make a cameo after all of the remarks and references from The Judge about him.

The Judge definitely has a "type," what with her past obsessions with Mark Harmon and Kyle Chandler, before moving on to Timothy Olyphant this season. Craggy courtly gentlemen of a certain age.

[cardigirl]

I have enjoyed this show, but I was not impressed with the "plan."  I'm not sure why, I guess I was hoping for something a little less dependent on people and more dependent on grace. As in no one can ever earn enough points to get into the Good Place. 

I know there are only a few episodes left (3 I think) so probably this is REALLY THE PLAN they are going with, but it doesn't do it for me. Sorry.  

Did laugh at lots during the show, and certainly enjoyed confident Chidi. I'll miss the show for certain when it is done.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

"Joanie loves Tchotchkes." 

I'm embarrassed to admit it took me a second for me to get that.

Quote

Help, I can’t stop singing, “Gonna erase the eaaaaarth."

Yeah, I definitely had "Ring My Bell" stuck in my head for a good hour afterwards.

Quote

tbh I am sort of surprised it wasn't Mark Harmon, given the judge talking about NCIS in season 2

I wonder if they switched it to Justified because they couldn't get Harmon. Timothy Olyphant has a great sense of humor. He played a fictional version of himself on Rob Lowe's short-lived sitcom "The Grinder" and he's also hilarious in the Neflix comedy "Santa Clarita Diet." A lot of people don't realize how funny he can be.

Quote

"Turn the music down!" Oh, I forgot this is the Bad Janet Void.

There was some weird muppet creature walking along in the background of that scene. I tried to figure out what it was but my 46" TV just isn't big enough to clearly make it out.

[Harvey]

15 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I have enjoyed this show, but I was not impressed with the "plan."  I'm not sure why, I guess I was hoping for something a little less dependent on people and more dependent on grace. As in no one can ever earn enough points to get into the Good Place. 

I know there are only a few episodes left (3 I think) so probably this is REALLY THE PLAN they are going with, but it doesn't do it for me. Sorry.  

Did laugh at lots during the show, and certainly enjoyed confident Chidi. I'll miss the show for certain when it is done.  

You are completely right.
This plan is utterly boring because of how predictable it is. Pretty much everyone who watches the show had this idea for a solution already. It is not shocking or particularly interesting. I expected better from the writers. Other aspects of the show are so inventive, fresh and different. And then they end it on a lame concept like purgatory when everyone already knows what that is.

[AnimeMania]

17 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Quote

"Turn the music down!" Oh, I forgot this is the Bad Janet Void.

There was some weird muppet creature walking along in the background of that scene. I tried to figure out what it was but my 46" TV just isn't big enough to clearly make it out.

Not 100%, but I thought it was Simone’s childhood pony that Chidi drew when they were playing Pictionary in Season 4, Episode 4 “Tinker, Tailor, Demon, Spy”.

[Traveller519]

38 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 

There was some weird muppet creature walking along in the background of that scene. I tried to figure out what it was but my 46" TV just isn't big enough to clearly make it out.

I'm pretty sure it was the Horse Chidi tried to draw during pictonary earlier this season, struggling to survive as it ever has.

[BobH]

So Bad Janet claimed to killed the mutant horse but actually kept it.  Interesting.

I don’t think this is the final plan.  Three chapters, one at least double sized, that’s like a whole feature film left to go, and this is a show which has turned on a dime multiple times.

[albinerhawk]

31 minutes ago, BobH said:

I don’t think this is the final plan.  Three chapters, one at least double sized, that’s like a whole feature film left to go, and this is a show which has turned on a dime multiple times.

I agree. The whole episode felt very abrupt in finding the solution so quickly. I guess they at least stopped the judge from rebooting humanity so immediate crisis resolved.

[Ms Lark]

8 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

Because it has be so long between episodes, is there any significance with the 4 random Yes people of The Good Place? Should I have recognised them? 

I don't know, but one of them was Jerry from TWD. (Uh oh...not Jerry!!) So, probably not.

My money is on Medium Place and move up to The Good Place or Reincarnate if not ready yet. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 hours ago, Traveller519 said:

And their motto:

"Fragile Trinkets for the Happiest Days"

I don't know if Megan Amram is still the primary writer for these, but she's going to need a creative outlet when the show ends!

 

Even I'm all hot and bothered by this Chidi.

/Eleanor makes a good point

/Chidi swoops in to kiss her passionately, "Do you want to get out of here?"

 

He swooped in on the roller skates provided by Disco Janet.  Such a small detail, but I loved it.  I would also love to see some outtakes of him skating around the set.

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, BobH said:

So Bad Janet claimed to killed the mutant horse but actually kept it.  Interesting.

Bad Janet probably rides him around Hell pretending to be one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

[BabyVegas]

11 hours ago, ishcabibble said:

I don’t know how I feel about the afterlife redesign. I like it in theory, but I have a hard time believing that Shawn would go for a plan that would not include sending at least some people to the Bad Place for traditional torture. Especially after how much the demons started complaining in the fake Good Place reboots about how they’re not actors. 
 

I have figured for a while now that some sort of purgatory would be included, but that that people would have a finite period of time to show whether they should go to the Good or Bad Place. 

Right there with you. Part of the problem tat they pointed out back in the second half of season 2 was that actions that were once positive were now negative. So when they said that if you had a negative point total, you went to the Bad Place, that seemed like it would be a lot of people and it would just fall into the problem of being the same old system. I feel like their plan almost works, but it should either be that the point threshold for where you go should have some kind of adjustment mechanism, to basically account for the complexity of the world, or the thresholds should have been different. So say -500K to 500K points, you go to purgatory/the Medium Place, above 500K welcome to the Good Place, below -500K, Shawn gets to bring out the penis flattener.

Of course there's even a side conversation to be had about a Dante's Inferno-type Bad Place, where your point total if you pass the Bad Place threshold determines how you're tortured.

All that being said, I'm SO glad this show is back. I laughed so hard at "Jacksonville Plea Bargain" I actually had to pause the TV.

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, BobH said:

I don’t think this is the final plan.

While Jason was juggling the eraser clicker thingie, I had this thought that, at the end of the final episode, it will somehow work out that the Judge will change her mind, click the button, and the tv screen will go blank in mid-sentence from Eleanor.  No credits, no nothing.  Now that would be a zig zag to beat all zig zags.

[whiporee]

They aren't done yet. If this is what they settle on, then 'll be disappointed in the end. Not the show at all, but the end. 

Too much is falling into place too easily. I liked the stuff with MEJ, but his turnaround just doesn't fit. Same thing with a lot of it -- like why are there so many Janets if no one has been sent to the Good Place for 500 yeas. Why does Disco Janet exist at all? For a show that has worked as hard to be smart as this one has, this all feels too simplistic. 

But more importantly, i can't imagine -- I really can't see it at all -- that Schurr and Co. would think they were giving us the answer to one of life's ultimate mysteries. I mean, that there's some real gall. But they are painting themselves into that kind of corner, where they are going to tell the world what exactly the afterlife should be. The solution they came up with does nothing about the unintended consequences problem, which was the whole reason Gen was willing to invalidate the points system in the first place, and it does nothing to address what makes a person good, or bad, or any of the grays in between. It's a toddler's solution and the show has just been too damn smart to settle on that kind of something. 

My personal belief is when you die, what happens is exactly what you expect to happen. If you think you're a bad person and you believe in a version of hell where yo are tortured and have your penis flattened every day, then that's where you end up.  If you believe in reincarnation or a cloud city with gold streets and pet tigers, that's what happens to you. If you think you'll see those you've lost, then you will. And if you think it all ends, then that happens, too. 

Or, if you happen to be Eleanor Shelstrop -- who has spent her life feeling judged and rejecting the judgement of others (while still internalizing it) --  maybe you end up in a place that is nothing but judgement, where all your acts have points assigned and you have to continually making yourself into a "better person," because that's how you spent your life on Earth, never being quite good enough but getting pretty close. Where the good guys are ineffectual do-nothings, and the bad guys are cool, but there's someone looking out for you. Just maybe. 

So, like I said, I don't think they're done. At least I hope they aren't. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by whiporee

[iMonrey]

Quote

Shawn gets to bring out the penis flattener.

I mean . . . what's he supposed to do with the penises if he can't flatten them?