S39.E12: Just Go For It

[Hpmec]

Why is Tommy still there? It's as though everyone decided he's in charge and can't be touched. The women had the perfect opportunity to form a gang of four and blindside his ass. With Dan gone shortly thereafter, they'd be sitting pretty. Just stupid play. Dan apparently has a slow learning curve regarding harassment. Glad he's history. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Hpmec

[albinerhawk]

Here's an interesting article with further insights to how CBS/Survivor handled the situation prior to last night's episode.

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/12/12/21012988/survivor-dan-spilo-removed-harassment-season-39-episode-9

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Besides what everyone else has said, can we also have Tommy stop talking about Tommy in the third person? Omg, someone dared again to threaten Tommy’s destiny to win! And, no offense, but if you’re 26ish, why do you still go by Tommy? Why does he think his shit don’t stink just because he’s a 4th grade teacher? Hate to sound like I’m on the Bachelor, but he doesn’t seem like he’s in teaching for the “right reasons”. I feel like if I was a 4th grader being taught by this guy I might just end up becoming more stupid instead. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

19 minutes ago, albinerhawk said:

Here's an interesting article with further insights to how CBS/Survivor handled the situation prior to last night's episode.

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/12/12/21012988/survivor-dan-spilo-removed-harassment-season-39-episode-9

That was good, with more information than we had before (Aaron's comments about the so-called "talk" the producers gave the contestants, for example.)

[Tryangle]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I know I'll get dragged for this.  I liked Kellee, I felt bad for Kellee and I was rooting for Kellee.  But, IMO, she was part of the problem and enabled Dan a lot more than production did.

I think there's a lot of truth in a lot of what Bryce Lynch said, because this situation in the "real world" would have been cut and dry... but in Survivor they're all trying to win a million bucks and we see that strategy, scheming, etc., outweighed the very real issue of inappropriate behaviour in this case.

Of course each individual may react differently in the same situation.

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I have very badly not wanted Tommy to win because of how arrogant he is.  But, after last night's episode, I am more disgusted by all the other idiots kissing his ass and not even considering the idea of voting him out.  

It's bewildering. People trying to be the Robin to Tommy's Batman or something. And it's not like Tommy has shown himself to be a master strategist even within his alliance.

It would seem to be in the best interest of everybody, even Dean, to vote out Tommy at next TC.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Special K said:

You're probably right, but I'd still like it if Kellee would get another shot, on a "second chances" season or something.  And Elaine of course.  I hope and expect she will be invited back.  She is absolutely Survivor gold.

I think Kellee, Janet and Elaine would all be strong candidates for a 2nd chances/Fan Favorites season.  Lauren might be too, assuming she doesn't win.   Jamal, Jack and to a lesser extent Molly might have a shot.  

Nut jobs often get a 2nd chance, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Noura back, given that she is comedy gold.  

Missy, Elizabeth, and obviously Dan will never be on the show again. 

Ronnie, we never knew, so we won't be seeing him again. 

Aaron isn't all the interesting, plus he has some stink on him for accusing Janet of lying

Chelsea, Tom, Jason, and Vince weren't interesting enough to get invited back.

Karishma probably wouldn't want to return. 

Tommy and Dean are kind of blah, but one of them might win and someday come back as a returning winner.  

[Kaiju Ballet]

29 minutes ago, Tryangle said:

It's bewildering. People trying to be the Robin to Tommy's Batman or something. And it's not like Tommy has shown himself to be a master strategist even within his alliance.

His comment to Lauren about how she was sounding like a jealous girlfriend didn't sit well with me.

Agree with the Ringer article that it was a really bad look for Tommy and production, to have a  "sucks for me!" TH response immediately following Dan's removal. I mean, I get why he'd be in total game mode with what he was aware of, but timing of that edit didn't do him any favors. (And giving him a benefit of a doubt, we don't know what else he said in the TH, or if that was a response to a specific prompt by the producers)

How I miss seasons where Noura hiding Dean's shoes would be the controversial moment of the episode!

[laurakaye]

2 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

The tests on Island of the Idols seem very cheap (here a coin toss).  Did Sandra, Rob and their statues really take up all the budget...

The "tests" seem like random, mostly nonsensical word salads that aren't so much lessons as they are Boston Rob reading awkwardly from a piece of parchment.  Throw in messages hanging from tree branches that ultimately no player should touch, childish games of chance, cutaways to arbitrary reaction shots in the hidden TC tree fort, and the fact that - gee - no one has had a repeat visit to the island?  I think the whole IOTI could've been really interesting but it fell apart and now it's just annoying.  And I love BR and Sandra!

This entire season makes me sad.

[RoxiP]

1 hour ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

Besides what everyone else has said, can we also have Tommy stop talking about Tommy in the third person? Omg, someone dared again to threaten Tommy’s destiny to win! And, no offense, but if you’re 26ish, why do you still go by Tommy? Why does he think his shit don’t stink just because he’s a 4th grade teacher? Hate to sound like I’m on the Bachelor, but he doesn’t seem like he’s in teaching for the “right reasons”. I feel like if I was a 4th grader being taught by this guy I might just end up becoming more stupid instead. 

My nephew-in-law is in his 50s and he still goes by Tommy.  He is a fully grown, semi-truck driving, sweet as all get-out guy and I would hate for my niece to divorce him because we would miss her.

Edited December 12, 2019 by RoxiP

[Ms Blue Jay]

Tommy Lee, Tommy Chong, Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Kimmel, Johnny Carson, etc. they are all over 26 or were.

[violet and green]

Really pertinent, I thought. From the Ringer article linked above:

Quote

It’s important to note that the game of Survivor exacerbates every issue at play with Dan’s behavior. Kellee didn’t feel immediately comfortable talking about what Dan was doing to her in part because she was competing to win and felt that doing so could blow up her game. The players who witnessed Dan’s behavior instead chose to prioritize gameplay over confronting him, and in some cases, exploited their knowledge of the situation as a part of strategy. That bad-faith behavior was egregious, but at the same time it’s impossible to ask contestants to deal with someone dangerous while also playing a game as physically and mentally taxing as Survivor. Therefore, it was up to the production team to make the call on Dan, and they allowed him to stay in the game, a decision that allowed him to victimize someone else.

Probst may promise that Survivor can change, but even now it’s not clear that the show has its priorities in order. In this episode, almost immediately after Probst told the cast that he’d removed Dan, the show cut to confessional where Tommy says, “Losing the wrong person at the wrong time can blow up your chances at a million. … This game doesn’t stop for anybody.” Rather than let the unprecedented moment breathe, the show’s editors mostly focused on how Dan’s removal impacts the game going forward, setting up next week’s finale. It was tonally off, a stark reminder that Survivor may not currently be equipped to handle a situation as serious as this.

They've misplayed this the entire season; and even knowing what they know - and knew at the time of filming, were informed of, and/or had footage of, also - they still edited the season as they have. Bizarre.

I always knew Survivor was a bro-club misogynistic meat show, at heart, but it had so many redeeming features, and such good moments, contestants, and surprise built into most seasons, that I've eagerly looked forward to almost every single one for the last 20 freaking years...

It sucks that in a season with so many great women as potential winners we've got this likely final four and likely winner...

So long, Elaine.

If Elaine was a dude, a bro-dude that Probst had one of his man-crushes on, she'd have been brought back "to even up the numbers" after the Dan ejection...

I really loved Janet from episode one, and now she is just covered in the stank of Dan for me. (Not that she's likely to get within spitting distance of the final tribal now, anyway - no, we need two smug, entitled, superior and yet remarkably ineffective men for that.)

So, now it's like, woah, yeh, go whatsyourname and Noura, yeah... But I can hardly root for anyone who didn't join forces when given a golden opportunity and endeavor to get one of those remaining dull, entitled men out. (Including Dan, who I can only assume as he is distinctly unappealing and unpleasant in his social manner in general, aside from the above, was kept around with the unsaid thought in back of mind of the remaining players as an excellent person no-one would vote for in the final - a stenchy dead goat, if you will.)

[TaraS1]

Why does Sandra never get to give the dumb "lesson"??  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Because.  Dude.  That un-spooling rope spinning thing to start the whole thing was brilliant!  OMG.  Then, not only is your head spinning from that, you then step onto extremely bouncy netting that further affects your equilibrium, then you have to do a ramping, zig-zagging balance beam, stopping halfway to untie a puzzle piece....  All that was comedy gold, and I sincerely thank the challenge designer for that. 

Eh, the show seems to have lazily settled on a couple of formulas for their challenges which I find tedious and stale. I usually fast-forward thru them. I mean, if slapstick is your objective then sure, this was funny and so are the blind man's bluff challenges, but that's not what I'm here for.

I really miss the more creative challenges that had the players running into the woods and reciting answers to questions into the camera or the challenges that forced them to show their cards by eliminating other players. I'm just so over the obstacle course and puzzle combo challenges. It seems like it's all they ever do anymore.

Quote

And, no offense, but if you’re 26ish, why do you still go by Tommy? 

My grown-ass neighbor goes by the name Kenny. Deliberately. 

It's possible some men use the nicknames to distinguish themselves from a father or grandfather, i.e. "Tom (father) and Tommy (son)" rather than "Big Tom and Little Tom."

[SuburbanHangSuite]

I just remembered perhaps my fav moment of such a bizarre episode.  BRob and Sandra having to keep straight faces whilst listening to Dean wax on about his "Legacy Advantage."  Sandra explaining, "He made a fake of the fake.."  I hollered.  Rob musing, "You never want to put votes on yourself even if you did have a real Advantage WHICH YOU DON'T, Brotha!"  Pure comedy gold.

[EllenB]

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I know I'll get dragged for this.  I liked Kellee, I felt bad for Kellee and I was rooting for Kellee.  But, IMO, she was part of the problem and enabled Dan a lot more than production did.

1) During a confessional, a production member asked her if she wanted them to step in and she said no.   

2) She talked about being strategic instead of emotional about the unwanted touching and then spoke to Lauren about targeting Missy, instead of Dan.   

In both of these instances, she was putting Dan's vote and her alliance with him ahead of protecting herself AND the other women from Dan's unwanted touching.  

Dan deserved to be ejected, but if none of the women are going to step up and ask for this and,  but instead, be willing to work with him, gaslight other women over the situation, and say  by their words and votes that they wanted him to stay in the game, then I don't think production had any business doing so.   

You can't  be strategic and uncooperative with TPTB about sexual harassment and then expect them to step in and fire/eject someone, AGAINST your expressed wishes.   

3) Kellee had the power to ensure the groper went home and no other women would be touched, while also ensuring her own safety, by playing one of her two idols.  But, again, she put strategy ahead of stopping the touching.

Also, she makes it sound like her speaking about the unwanted touching in her confessional got her voted out of the game.   That had nothing to do with in.  In fact, it was her being soft on Dan's abuse and telling Lauren that she wanted to vote out Missy that started the chain of events (including Missy and Elizabeth's disgusting behavior) that lead to her being voted out.  

This comes uncomfortably close to victim-blaming, and it is why it is so effing difficult for women to speak up in these situations. 

Consider yourself dragged. 😁

Edited December 12, 2019 by EllenB

[sadiegirl1999]

2 hours ago, albinerhawk said:

Here's an interesting article with further insights to how CBS/Survivor handled the situation prior to last night's episode.

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/12/12/21012988/survivor-dan-spilo-removed-harassment-season-39-episode-9

That is one of the most well written articles I’ve read about this! 

[Pepper Mostly]

39 minutes ago, TaraS1 said:

Why does Sandra never get to give the dumb "lesson"??  

When production proposed it she probably laughed in their faces and said "yeah, no".

[treeofdreams]

Those spinning challenges are just silly.  Do none of the contestants realize that when they are done spinning in one direction, all they need to do is spin a couple of times in the opposite direction to get their equilibrium back??

[violet and green]

Episode one. Vokai, day 2:

Janet lying flat on her face on the ground near the shelter, pipes up gamely as Dan approaches from behind: 'What do you need me to do?'

'Nothing,' says Dan and kneels down and begins massaging and cracking her back.

'Oh,' says Janet appreciatively. 'Ah...'

'What is going on?!' Kellee says, laughing, as she arrives on the scene.

'It's a massage parlor,' a woman's voice says from the shelter.

'Dan is so good,' Molly says, turning to smile.

Kellee, in the background, turns her head away and makes a rueful face...

Cut to Kellee confessional: 'You know, in the game of Survivor, there's a lot of people that you're living with for the first time, right, like living with anyone is hard ---'

Cut to footage of Kellee lying prone on her back in the shelter with a miserable face and sweaty Dan lying back horizontally and getting his head comfortable on her.

'---and I'm a germaphobe when it comes to, like, other people's grossness.'

To Dan: 'Do you want to go here? Go here.' Directs him away from her midsection and onto her thighs.

Janet stands and watches with an odd look of slight exasperation on her face.

Dan: 'Oh my God. Combination of, like, human... and slightly more elevated. If it gets too heavy, let me know.'

'Are you sweating on my leg?' Kellee says, lifting her tired, sweaty head anxiously.

'No, no,' says Dan, rubbing his hair to demonstrate. 'Feel the back of my head.'

Cut to Kellee confessional: 'Dan's a really touchy person...'

Cut to footage of Kelly lying on her stomach and smiling as Dan's fingers prod and massage her upper back.

'He makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable, and I don't think he like really realizes it.' Her face shows discomfort as he slips his fingers under her shirt to reach the back of her neck. 'His lack of spatial awareness, being like, for me, a germaphobe---'

Cut to confessional: '---but also like a girl. I'm like, Dan, I don't want your head on my leg. It's too much. Like, I don't want your sweaty body on me. Like, at all.'

Cuts back to previous scene of them sprawled on the shelter like a litter of puppies, Molly's head close by. 'Do you want a back rub?' Dan's voice says, with his hand touching Kellee's back lightly. 'Do I want what?' 'Do you want a back rub?' he repeats, his hand still lightly on her. 'No, that's okay,' she murmurs. 'Thank you.' He takes his hand off and looks a bit wistful and sad; meanwhile Molly jaws on re sports.

(Me, back then: Poor middle-aged schlubby gay guy, he's just trying to be valuable for the tribe! Janet likes him! And please don't misuse the term 'germaphobe'. If you're on Survivor, you're not a freaking germaphobe.)

Cut to Molly confessional: 'I was a little taken aback by Dan at first. He's like really touchy. And, Dan does not know personal space.'

Cut to Molly on the beach beside Janet: 'Dan's been making me feel a little bit uncomfortable. And I don't want to cause any problems at camp, or something like that.' Janet's all, head on hand, nodding, uh-huh, looking unimpressed. 'I think that Dan's an easier person to have on your side,' Molly says, turning her head away and smiles awkwardly.

Cut to a different Molly confessional, intercut with further footage of the two women talking on the beach: 'I'm trying to be delicate about this, because it is a game, and I don't want to ruffle feathers for as long as I can, and if you get yourself into a hole earlier it's really hard to climb out of it.'

Shot of small campfire flame. Three women stand close together looking down at the fire. Kellee says, her eyes lowered: 'Dan is really touchy, and it's really a lot.' 'Yeah,' says Janet, her arms folded. 'It's too much for you?' asks Lauren. 'I don't like to be touched too much,' Kellee says, grimacing. 'It's too much for Molly, too,' Janet growls in the background. 'Oh, okay,' says Lauren, as Janet stands looking directly at her with her hands on her hips.

Cut to Janet confessional: 'The girls are very uncomfortable with Dan's physicality with them. And I've learned in my life, as a woman, you need to say what you think.'

Cut to Dan and Kellee laying side by side on the beach, Dan looking like she's speaking Martian to him: 'I think I totally, like, recognize love languages, like, your way of showing, like, that you care -- but for me, I'm like, daah! you know--'

Dan, nodding: 'I get it.'

'--whereas for me,' Kellee says smiling, 'I'm like--'

'Yeah, I know.'

'--I'm not trying to like reject that, I just come from such a different place--'

Dan keeps interrupting and nods rapidly, in a weird circling motion with his head: 'Yeah, I know. I have to be open, to--like, I have to be open to not thinking, "Oh, God, she doesn't like me, because I can't hug her the way Janet can."'

...'Hopefully over the course of these 39 days, it will like get better,' she says smiling genially.

'We will realise...' Dan burbles.

They smoothe things over, and then we cut to a Kellee confessional: "We're playing Survivor, where it's about fitting and connecting. Dan being a touchy person... it's a lot. We kind of talked about it, and it was a really, really good conversation, but I think Dan's lack of spatial awareness is really going to affect him in the game.'

------

Hmmmm... I seem to recall a further comment that ep from Janet re the girls spoke to him, or similar, and that that was for the best; but that was enough torture trying to rewatch and transcribe that.

tl;dr: I trusted Janet's assessment, that episode. Le sigh.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, EllenB said:

This comes uncomfortably close to victim-blaming, and it is why it is so effing difficult for women to speak up in these situations. 

Consider yourself dragged. 😁

Anytime I hear focus on what a victim of sexual harassment did, I just feel like somebody is trying to shift blame away from the perpetrator.

@violet and green So interesting that Janet says The women are "VERY UNCOMFORTABLE" with Dan.  And so early on in the game!  Damn.  How much more confirmation do you need?

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Trepis]

Wow; glad to see Dan gone, doubt we will ever get the full details . 

When that card popped up that said it wasn't a player and not on camera I immediately  thought he did something during a medical checkup. It's a time when he would be in close proximity to folks and likely not on camera as they tend to ask those 'how are you doing' questions . My next thought was awww, Dean wont talk the votes onto himself and then go home on a fake advantage. 

Elaine was doing good but she over played, that story should have been saved for the when she's final three because I'm sure a lot of folks realized they cant beat her right there. 

don't like Noura, anyone who searches bags gets on my dislike list but the shoe this was 100% pure grade A Bitch. there was nothing strategic about that. Her insulting Karishma to her face and ' They go back to their exes.......After I break up with them' does she expect guys she breaks up with to follow her around like lost puppies ( not going to be sad to see her. 

It's interesting how many folks think that production should have taken Dan off after Kellee said no, I disagree 

1) If they remove Dan, Kellee  gets voted off; Kellee sue's , says the reason she lost was because they removed her ally at a critical time even though she specifically said she did want that. Then CBS gets blasted for 'white knighting' her and not respecting her agency.

I heard a saying a long time ago 'the problem with giving people a choice is sometimes they chose wrong' To be clear, I dont think Kellee 'chose wrong' .

What this expression has always meant to me is if you believe someone deserves agency, then you have to respect their choices even if you wouldn't have done the same thing. They are making the right choice because it is their choice to make; The moment production decides 'This girl chose wrong, we better pull Dan to protect her' they are deciding to not respect her choice, and that's sexist. 

[fishcakes]

When did watching Survivor become so exhausting? JFC.

Unless a lot of Dan's clients or former clients come forward to document similar and worse behavior, I suspect he'll suffer no career repercussions. He'll maintain that he touched the crew member's leg accidentally and that the show made a big deal of it because earlier Kellee overreacted to him being a friendly guy. And people will believe that. Hell, going by twitter or the comments section of EW and the like, people are making that excuse for him. Shit, nothing every changes. When it comes out that Louis CK traps women in rooms and masturbates in front of them, he loses his bookings for, like, 3 seconds, then comes back and does rape jokes in his stand-up routine and the audience is all, "so glad he's back!" Ugh. Humans are the worst.

I love Rob and Sandra but even I thought Island of the Idols was a crap concept from the beginning. As it turns out, their participation is the only thing worth watching this season. The stretching, the confessionals, the Statler and Waldorf routine -- I rewatch every season at least once, and I'm thinking when I rewatch this season I'll FF through everything but the Rob and Sandra bits. As for Dean's visit, I initially was thinking that a coin flip is not a good test of the lesson he got, which was supposedly jury management (although the entire lesson seemed to be Rob saying, "you need to manage the jury," and then us watching that lightbulb go on over Dean's stupid face), but if the F3 is any combination of the remaining players that does not include Janet, then a coin flip is probably exactly what the jurors will do. Because seriously, Tommy, Dean, Lauren, Noura, who gives a fuck? The amazing thing to me is that Tommy, Dean, and Lauren all believe themselves to be threats. Even self-sabotaging Noura did more to get herself to the end than those three idiots.

Dean's face: yes, I see what you all mean now. He looks like he has the mumps but they keep shifting. Sometimes there's one lump, sometimes there are two, sometimes there are two on one side. It's unsettling.

[Eolivet]

14 minutes ago, Trepis said:

It's interesting how many folks think that production should have taken Dan off after Kellee said no, I disagree 

1) If they remove Dan, Kellee  gets voted off; Kellee sue's , says the reason she lost was because they removed her ally at a critical time even though she specifically said she did want that. Then CBS gets blasted for 'white knighting' her and not respecting her agency.

I heard a saying a long time ago 'the problem with giving people a choice is sometimes they chose wrong' To be clear, I dont think Kellee 'chose wrong' .

What this expression has always meant to me is if you believe someone deserves agency, then you have to respect their choices even if you wouldn't have done the same thing. They are making the right choice because it is their choice to make; The moment production decides 'This girl chose wrong, we better pull Dan to protect her' they are deciding to not respect her choice, and that's sexist. 

I hate to be so blunt, but: no.

Zeke said it best when all this first happened:

https://twitter.com/zekerchief/status/1195057089120362496?s=20

I haven't even watched what sounds like a pure dumpster fire of an episode, but this can't be said enough. It was not and never was Kellee's responsibility to take action. It was production's responsibility, period, end of story.

So, I guess all sexual harassment is equal, but some sexual harassment is more equal than others, huh, CBS? Probst? Burnett? Bueller?

[cheewhiz]

18 hours ago, SuburbanHangSuite said:

My son is convinced that all of the slips in that Island of the Idols bag read "Dean."

EXACTLY my thought...smart kid lol

[JudyObscure]

32 minutes ago, Trepis said:

The moment production decides 'This girl chose wrong, we better pull Dan to protect her' they are deciding to not respect her choice, and that's sexist. 

I agree with that.  If production is going to give the choice to a player then they should respect her choice.

I also think production should never have put her on the spot by asking her  to make that choice. 

Reading @violet and green's painstaking transcript (thank you for that) I think it should have been plain to production right away that they had a problem and Dan should have been immediately pulled from the game.  Two of the women had expressed discomfort and it was clear he had no idea about personal space.  In a game that requires so much close living he was just unacceptable as a cast member.

[ProfCrash]

Production should have issued a formal warning to Dan on day 1 or 2. If he stopped touching, then good on him, if not then he is removed. But a warning could have been issued early on.

[PaperTree]

BOOM!

Goodbye Feely Dan.  You finally groped somebody with some power and got your ass handed to you.

No jury, no Ponderosa?  Just Get The F Out.

Sad Elaine was whacked.

Janet FTW.  She's a badass firemaker  🙂 if it gets there.

May the spirit of Extinction Chris be with her.

Tommy gets more repulsive every week.

Edited December 12, 2019 by PaperTree

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Trepis said:

don't like Noura, anyone who searches bags gets on my dislike list but the shoe this was 100% pure grade A Bitch. there was nothing strategic about that. Her insulting Karishma to her face and ' They go back to their exes.......After I break up with them' does she expect guys she breaks up with to follow her around like lost puppies ( not going to be sad to see her. 

I actually thought Noura said something like, "I'll go very deep with you, I build my boyfriends up until they leave me and go back to their exgirlfriends."  Which is even funnier.  Like, once she gives confidence to a man, he wants to leave her?  Are you sure you want to share that with all of us?  

1 hour ago, Trepis said:

The moment production decides 'This girl chose wrong, we better pull Dan to protect her' they are deciding to not respect her choice, and that's sexist. 

It could also be seen as, we view Dan disrespecting women's boundaries again and again, but it's not such a big deal, because it's only women.  That could also be seen as sexist.  What if Dan had been continually groping Jeff?  

Edited December 12, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

Dean's face: yes, I see what you all mean now. He looks like he has the mumps but they keep shifting. Sometimes there's one lump, sometimes there are two, sometimes there are two on one side. It's unsettling.

I cackled!

I don't even know what to say about the Dan thing. I mean, I always knew Production was heinous but I am somehow still surprised by how badly they handled this whole thing. What garbage people they are. I hate that I will continue to give this shit show views.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

Dean's face: yes, I see what you all mean now. He looks like he has the mumps but they keep shifting. Sometimes there's one lump, sometimes there are two, sometimes there are two on one side. It's unsettling.

Also he has one of those faces where the difference between no expression and smiling is NIGHT AND DAY.  Like a different person.  Like a Two Face.

[Auntie Anxiety]

I’ve thought that Karishma was attractive at certain points in the game and with certain camera angles, but last night she looked gorgeous in the red dress. 

In one of the earliest seasons, one of the men “sleep groped” a female tribe mate. I can’t remember if anything was ever done about that or if he was just ultimately voted off.

Survivor was striving for a woke season and failed miserably. Right off the bat, the producers should have confronted him. If/When Dan tried to shrug it off, they should have showed him all they had captured on film. It wasn’t a he said-she said situation, it was documented! They should have showed him the door then and there. Prolonging it affected the game FAR MORE than pulling him out at the beginning. 

Can’t help but feel sorry for Dan’s family. His poor son must be mortified by how public this all is.

I was waiting and hoping that Elaine would have been called back into the game because of Dan’s dismissal. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I rewatch every season at least once, and I'm thinking when I rewatch this season I'll FF through everything but the Rob and Sandra bits. 

Well then you should be able to get through the entire season in under an hour because their participation has turned out to be quite minimal. Which I'm grateful for since frankly I'm sick of them (but mostly Rob) but which shows was a failure this season's "twist" turned out to be.

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(although the entire lesson seemed to be Rob saying, "you need to manage the jury," and then us watching that lightbulb go on over Dean's stupid face)

Heh. I've not felt strongly one way or another about Dean but when he was sitting there telling them about his "legacy advantage" and that he believed it was real, I thought out loud "He doesn't seem very bright."

Quote

Tommy gets more repulsive every week.

Really? That's seems like an over-reaction to me. I get that he's not especially rootable nor terribly impressive, and seems pretty entitled at times. But repulsive? Compared to some of the past players he seems pretty innocuous to me. I keep thinking of "Worlds Apart" (I think) that had players like Rodney and Dan, now there was some serious toxic masculinity. This show has had some really odious players in the past that make Tommy seem rather milquetoast by comparison. 

Aside from "Feely Dan" I've found the cast this season to be mostly just blah but largely inoffensive.

[Trepis]

2 hours ago, Eolivet said:

I hate to be so blunt, but: no.

Zeke said it best when all this first happened:

https://twitter.com/zekerchief/status/1195057089120362496?s=20

Thank you for responding, I do appreciate there are two strong sides to this and I try to learn where ever I can. I do agree with Zeke ( I havent seen all the seasons so Im not sure who that is ) and I think at least as far as this board we are quite outraged. What bothered me the most was the moment at TC when Dan was making his weak ass BS 'I'm sorry if' speech every example he used was some incidental contact when he KNEW 

1 He got a specific warning ( dang I wish we got to see this ) 

2 Kellee outright asked him to stop intentional contact 

I've been trying to learn about what blind spots I might have when it comes to issues like this, I've got a cousin who is probably the smartest person I know ( 2 masters degrees before 30, ) and fifteen years my junior ; We had a talk over the summer and I asked her what her thoughts were on the subject. We had a great chat about privilege and subconscious sexism  , two things that a 41yrd white male could be ignorant of. One of the things about subconscious sexism that really stuck was the idea that I should always stop and question a situation if I find myself thinking about making a decision on behalf of a woman without consulting her.  The intent can be to help , but don't casually take away other peoples choices. in the thread about the episode where this all went down there was a comment that jumped out as a perfect example. The idea that womens bodies are property , we talk about how Dan wouldn't ever have touched the guys; I dont think he ever consciously thought ' I dont want to touch Deans hair' : the thought jsut never enters his mind. 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree with that.  If production is going to give the choice to a player then they should respect her choice.

I also think production should never have put her on the spot by asking her  to make that choice. 

This is a really good point, I'm noddling this around for sure. Even considering what I said above, there are times that it is right ; the classic ' take car keys away from the person who had to many drinks' 

I just am thinking about if the stress of this game and hardship and stress of his presence is so much that it would make sense to make this decision for Kellee rather then asking her. It could very well be, I honestly dont think I have the life experience or perspective to determine . 

I remember thinking when they asked what she wants " She wants a fair f'ing shot! this game is her dream, its so fricking hard for so many reasons already and then she has this stacked against her. She either asked for him to go , possibly weakening her place in the game or she puts up with his presence . no matter what shes not getting the fair shot she deserves. 

I also remember having the sad thought that regardless of what happens with Dan, he's probably not the first Dan she's dealt with and not the last.

55 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I actually thought Noura said something like, "I'll go very deep with you, I build my boyfriends up until they leave me and go back to their exgirlfriends."  Which is even funnier.  Like, once she gives confidence to a man, he wants to leave her?  Are you sure you want to share that with all of us?  

It could also be seen as, we view Dan disrespecting women's boundaries again and again, but it's not such a big deal, because it's only women.  That could also be seen as sexist.  What if Dan had been continually groping Jeff?  

Noura tacked on ' After I left them' right at the end of the sentence, I hadn't considered how it made her look, lol. now I think she tacked that on to recover )  

Agreed on the second part, that transcript was enlighteningly horrible   . How come a producer wasn't directly filming Dan from the moment of the warning and the very next touch bounce his ass. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Trepis

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 minutes ago, Trepis said:

I've been trying to learn about what blind spots I might have when it comes to issues like this, I've got a cousin who is probably the smartest person I know ( 2 masters degrees before 30, ) and fifteen years my junior ; We had a talk over the summer and I asked her what her thoughts were on the subject. We had a great chat about privilege and subconscious sexism  , two things that a 41yrd white male could be ignorant of. One of the things about subconscious sexism that really stuck was the idea that I should always stop and question a situation if I find myself thinking about making a decision on behalf of a woman without consulting her.  The intent can be to help , but don't casually take away other peoples choices. in the thread about the episode where this all went down there was a comment that jumped out as a perfect example. The idea that womens bodies are property , we talk about how Dan wouldn't ever have touched the guys; I dont think he ever consciously thought ' I dont want to touch Deans hair' : the thought jsut never enters his mind. 

That is 100% what Dan was doing every single time he touched Kellee.  Even worse, after she told him how she felt, he kept doing it again and again.  

[ProfCrash]

I just read Elaine’s interview at EW. The jury didn’t find out about Dan until the next tribal council. They skipped the next tribal council and the Jury was confused.

[Trepis]

6 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

That is 100% what Dan was doing every single time he touched Kellee.  Even worse, after she told him how she felt, he kept doing it again and again.  

I agree; for whatever reason this situation has really had me thinking. Probably because when Kellee first mentioned how she hates being touched by strangers I remember thinking about how I could relate. But as the episodes carried on, I was constantly shown how different Kellee's life experience is from mine. I kept trying to think about how I would react , but its tricky because it's seems extremely unlikely just because Im a guy. Even when I think of it as a hypothetical , it doesnt really line up because it feels weird/awkward but still non sexual 

[deirdra]

What I don't understand is why Probst/producers didn't say goodbye to Dan right after he groped Noura's arms & shoulders at TC when he was illustrating how one might "inadvertently" brush by people when climbing over them, in full view of Probst, producers, other players and viewers.  Firmly grabbing biceps isn't a "brush", it was creepy to watch and showed how Feely Dan doesn't get it.

Edited December 13, 2019 by deirdra

[nlkm9]

14 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I can't stand Noura, but she ratted out Elaine to save herself, after Dean ratted her out.

So 2 wrongs make a right. Noura has shown she is very untrustable . Dean too. They both suck

[Eolivet]

Having just watched this episode, I have a lot of thoughts, but one keeps standing out:

After the double episode ... why didn't Dan get the Purple edit?

Show his groping of all the young women, establish him as a sexual harasser and then ... erase him from the narrative. Why did he continue to get confessionals? Why did he continue to get airtime? He did next to nothing, strategy-wise other than exist in the dominant alliance. There was no reason to show him much of the time. There was no reason to show people talking about him. After the Kellee episode, he should've faded to the background. Spare the viewers seeing his predatory mug, week after week.

It's not like production didn't know what was going to happen a few episodes later.

And that kind of says all you need to know about production. That they thought once upon a time that a woman who was given no clothes and quit the game (the infamous Purple Kelly) was worthy of erasure, but a man who sexually harassed multiple women was owed screentime.

Survivor really should stop calling itself a microcosm of society, because the sad and unfunny jokes keep writing themselves.

[Whimsy]

I know that this is been a sensitive subject this season, and that emotions are running high, but we still need to adhere to our general rule of Be Civil. Several posts have been removed for not following this rule. Continued discussions will result in warnings.

additionally, this is the thread to talk about this episode only. There’s been a lot of rehashing of the entire season going on.

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

Having just watched this episode, I have a lot of thoughts, but one keeps standing out:

After the double episode ... why didn't Dan get the Purple edit?

Show his groping of all the young women, establish him as a sexual harasser and then ... erase him from the narrative. Why did he continue to get confessionals? Why did he continue to get airtime? He did next to nothing, strategy-wise other than exist in the dominant alliance. There was no reason to show him much of the time. There was no reason to show people talking about him. After the Kellee episode, he should've faded to the background. Spare the viewers seeing his predatory mug, week after week.

It's not like production didn't know what was going to happen a few episodes later.

And that kind of says all you need to know about production. That they thought once upon a time that a woman who was given no clothes and quit the game (the infamous Purple Kelly) was worthy of erasure, but a man who sexually harassed multiple women was owed screentime.

Survivor really should stop calling itself a microcosm of society, because the sad and unfunny jokes keep writing themselves.

Maybe because with or without evidence, people always doubt the woman's story.  Good to give a full picture to give Kellee credibility.

[Eolivet]

6 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Maybe because with or without evidence, people always doubt the woman's story.  Good to give a full picture to give Kellee credibility.

I'm talking the last few episodes, when Kellee was gone. To attempt to keep on topic, I'll talk this episode. Dan was shown as part of the guy alliance with Tommy and Dean. He was shown making plans about the vote (with Janet, I believe). As an example, in the last few episodes, he got extended strategy confessionals.

In fact, he was essentially rewarded since his victim (all of them, save Lauren, actually) was voted out. He was re-normalized, re-integrated into the narrative (remember the Janet "let's work together and be best buddies again" scene).

But next to none of his screentime had an effect on the game. Almost all of it could've been edited out. There was no reason to see him after the double episode, except for the family visit and now, to say he was removed.

But his neutral/positive screentime actually increased after Kellee was voted out, and my question is why? Why didn't they Purple Kelly the sexual harasser these last few episodes, and especially this one? Make him irrelevant to the game, because he was, and it's what he deserved.

(cue that whole "microcosm of society" thing.)

[PaperTree]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Really? That's seems like an over-reaction to me. I get that he's not especially rootable nor terribly impressive, and seems pretty entitled at times. But repulsive? Compared to some of the past players he seems pretty innocuous to me. I keep thinking of "Worlds Apart" (I think) that had players like Rodney and Dan, now there was some serious toxic masculinity. This show has had some really odious players in the past that make Tommy seem rather milquetoast by comparison. 

Aside from "Feely Dan" I've found the cast this season to be mostly just blah but largely inoffensive.

You are right.  Poor choice of words. 

"Repulsive" was excessive, I'll blame it on the vodka 🙂 

Tommy is more annoying, obnoxious, irritating, etc. every week.

[LanceM]

59 minutes ago, deirdra said:

What I don't understand is why Probst/producers didn't say goodbye to Dan right after he groped Noura's arms & shoulders at TC when he was illustrating how one might "inadvertently" brush by people when climbing over them, in full view of Probst, producers, other players and viewers.  Firmly grabbing biceps isn't a "brush", it was creepy to watch and showed how Feely Dan doesn't get it.

Probably because Noura had no issue with him doing that.

[KaveDweller]

13 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Even last night, Production did not tell the cast that Dan was pulled for inappropriate touching or violating his warning or anything along those lines. All the cast was told is that Dan was removed from the game and that was it. I think Janet figured out that it was because of the touching but Tommy went to "maybe someone was sick at home", apparently not grasping the difference between "left the game due to an emergency at home" and "removed from the game."

Jeff actually didn't tell the cast that Dan was removed from the game. At least, not on camera. All he said was that he just talked to Dan and he would not be returning to the game. The "removed" language was just in the card that they showed at the end. So unless there was an additional conversation we didn't see, it seems reasonable to think that maybe there was an emergency.

Now, every time someone else has left the game for a family emergency in the past, we have seen Jeff tell the person about the situation in front of everyone. So it seems like they should have noticed that difference. But it also has not happened more than a couple times, so it may not be enough to really call it a pattern.

[tvfanatic13]

PLEASE win the IC next week Janet. 🙏🙏

[PaperTree]

5 minutes ago, tvfanatic13 said:

PLEASE win the IC next week Janet. 🙏🙏

Yes.  Does she have an idol?

[ProfCrash]

4 minutes ago, PaperTree said:

Yes.  Does she have an idol?

Yes but Dean knows she does and has an idol nullifier.

[zscore]

6 minutes ago, PaperTree said:

Yes.  Does she have an idol?

Yes. This is the last time she can play it. So she might think that she doesn't need to win IC, not knowing there is an idol nullifier.

Edited December 13, 2019 by zscore

[PaperTree]

1 minute ago, ProfCrash said:

Yes but Dean knows she does and has an idol nullifier.

Crap!  Forgot about that.