S04.E04: Tinker, Tailor, Demon, Spy

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Uncertainty abounds when an unexpected visitor arrives.

Original air date: 10/17/19

[Wanda]

Wow. Not over yet but should satisfy people who thought things were going too slowly this season!

[Dots And Stripes]

Probably my favorite episode so far this season. It feels like we moved forward. I also liked that once again we didn't know more than the characters.

I caught Janet didn't say "not a girl" but I thought maybe that was her evolving. I guess all of Janets complaints and passive aggressiveness were not about her gaining more abilities but were a sign of her being a fake.

Michael saying "Take it sleazy" was actually a pretty good clue it was him. That goes all the way back to season 1. Any plan that sends Michael to the bad place now is super risky. They know the bad place has a Michael suit. It seems easy for the bad place to swap Michaels. 

I also guess that Glenn was telling the truth about there being a celebration in the bad place he, he just guessed the wrong swap.

[SammyBeBop]

I'd like to have a party for myself for calling the Janet switch. I usually have to read here to catch stuff like that.

[Linny]

I knew from the moment Janet didn't correct Jason's use of "girl" that something was wrong, and I squealed with validation at the reveal that it was really Bad Janet. It sucks that Janet's trapped in the Bad Place, but I adore that it was Jason and his understanding of Janet that figured things out, and I know Janet will be pleased, too. This is the Jason she loves; dumb as box of rocks in almost every way, yet intelligent enough to pull through when you need him to.

I don't blame Eleanor for having doubts about Michael, even though it seemed clear to me that it was truly him. This is Eleanor's responsibility and she wants to do right by it, and even the smallest niggling worry could jeopardize her plans. Most important to me is that Michael wasn't upset with Eleanor's reaction. He knows the demons' psychological attacks are designed to cause unease, and being willing to take that burden off Eleanor and place it on himself, risking his life in the process, is remarkable. Michael is such a great character (though I'll admit he could stand to work on the lying).

The show threw me a bone by giving me Eleanor, Chidi, and a big-ass plate of nachos. I miss the closeness between Eleanor and Chidi SO MUCH, and this felt like the best tease. Eleanor was so charmed that Chidi wanted to rectify his hideous horse disaster, I love it. (They better get their happy ending, show. I'm expecting great things.)

Take it sleazy makes a triumphant comeback, hee! This episode had it all, I'm so happy right now!

[rwlevin]

Is it wrong that I hope we get updates on Glenn as he goes through his evolutions?

[phalange]

I was suspicious about Glenn suddenly turning against his fellow demons, but then again, it’s what Michael did, so not impossible. I was thinking it really might be Vicky up until Micheal volunteered to sacrifice himself. This also means he was telling the truth about his demon form being a fire squid, which is hilarious. 

The second to last stage of demon growth is a social media CEO, which honestly makes a lot of sense. I cackled. 

Jason is the MVP for discovering that Janet was really Bad Janet all along. In hindsight, this episode gave a lot of clues, like how she seemed to almost enjoy talking about what she did to the poor animated horse, and “accidentally” vaporizing Glenn. I can’t wait to see Jason and Michael sneaking around the Bad Place, and how they un-marbleize Janet. 

I loved Eleanor and Chidi’s nacho scene. Chidi said he felt like he made the world worse, when in reality he’s helping to make it better. He just can’t remember. 

[incandescent]

Glenn's been the Bad Place's butt monkey since season one (he's even the one who got stuck in the sinkhole!) If anyone was gonna have a Michael-style change of demon's-anatomical-equivalent-to-heart, it was gonna be him.

[tennisgurl]

I am patting myself pretty hard on the back for calling Janet actually being Bad Janet in disguise, she was acting really odd all season and so many of her ideas backfired, in ways that even an emotional Janet wouldn't let happen, so I am validated! Best episode of the season so far, we are making some real progress now!

"Or is that just what you want us to think?!?" Score one for Jason, I love when he has his moments of intelligence in his own Jason kind of way! I caught the "not a girl" too but I wasnt sure if it was just a mistake or Janet growing past her normal self, but of course Jason was the one that caught that. Jason was married to Janet in several timelines! 

Thank God they caught on to Bad Janet before she could convince Tahani to get an asymmetrical haircut! YOU MONSTER!

I am glad that Michael has always been Michael and not Vicky (we already saw the evil plan with Vicky in the Michael suit!) so that all his pep talks with Eleanor were real, if masking his worries a bit more than he let on. Awww willing to sacrifice himself for some cockroaches, thast our Michael. I mean, they had to have known that he was Michael as soon as he said "Take it sleazy." which is such a classic Michael-ism. Glad that he did understand Eleanor's suspicions, and of course they all still want to be his friend, even if he happens to be a giant flaming squid!

So I guess Glenn really has gone to Team Cockroach...unless thats yet another part of the plan! But I like the idea that some demons, like Michael, do have the capacity to change, or do have a less evil side. 

On a shallow note, Jason looked fine in his 40s style Bad Place outfit!

[Aileen]

I totally didn’t understand how putting the sex cuffs on Janet showed that she was truly Bad Janet. I must have missed something, but it made no sense to me.

[Mockingbird]

20 minutes ago, Aileen said:

I totally didn’t understand how putting the sex cuffs on Janet showed that she was truly Bad Janet. I must have missed something, but it made no sense to me.

They were magnets, which takes away Janet’s powers (so her Good Janet facade disappeared). And makes her drunk. 

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, rwlevin said:

Is it wrong that I hope we get updates on Glenn as he goes through his evolutions?

Not at all. It could be a fun little background thing that they check in on every now and then. 

Also, I realized Eleanor's challenge and part of the way she will demonstrate growth and change this season is by being responsible.

I think Brent was an idea that looked good on paper when they were planning the season, but hasn't really worked out that well. He isn't that interesting, and his character isn't that funny. 

[La Dee Da]

I missed the “not a girl” but I guessed there had been an opportunity to swap Janets. This is the twisty turny multiple episode setup stuff I appreciate on this show! I do wonder how the trip to the Bad Place is going to go super south - cannot wait!

This was a great episode for Jason - I loved his glee at the prospect of seeing Michael’s true form but the matter of fact “coconut rum” was *chef’s kiss*

40 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

On a shallow note, Jason looked fine in his 40s style Bad Place outfit!

It’s never shallow to appreciate art, Tennisgurl! 😉

[shoregirl]

52 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

On a shallow note, Jason looked fine in his 40s style Bad Place outfit!

Is it shallow if it's true?

Manny Jacinto looks ridiculously good in that suit. 

[AnimeMania]

So was Good Janet really struggling to maintain the simulation of the "Good Place", if so, was Bad Janet struggling as well? Shouldn't the entire "Good Place" facade crash when they put the handcuffs on the Bad Janet and neutralized her powers?

[bros402]

Once Janet didn't say "not a girl" - I knew it was her that was the fake.

Good episode

[Mockingbird]

47 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

So was Good Janet really struggling to maintain the simulation of the "Good Place", if so, was Bad Janet struggling as well? Shouldn't the entire "Good Place" facade crash when they put the handcuffs on the Bad Janet and neutralized her powers?

Did we actually see our Janet struggling to maintain the Janet babies? Or was that a lie from Bad Janet to explain why she was in such a bad mood?

[Guest]

I love that they explained how a Bad Janet could believably pose as our Janet. So many other shows would have just revealed the switch without explaining how it was possible. 

One of the things I really love about the show is that manage to move the plot forward and still hits all the right emotional notes. Watching Chidi and Eleanor bond again was particularly nice. Eleanor and Michael have been my favorite relationship of the season. I loved Simone’s reaction to Brent calling Chidi brother. 

I really want to rewatch the last few episodes and find some of the smaller moments of how Bad Janet sabotaged the experiment. One that I noticed was during Pictionary when Chidi wanted a moment and she immediately flipped the timer.

I cant wait to see what is next. 

16 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

Did we actually see our Janet struggling to maintain the Janet babies? Or was that a lie from Bad Janet to explain why she was in such a bad mood?

I rewatched the first two episodes to check. Her talking about how complicated it was before the switch. This episode happened at night and we only saw the humans and Michael once Bad Janet was cuffed. The Janet babies could have been affected without anyone knowing yet. Hopefully it will be explained next week but Derek could probably keep things functioning enough for them to get by until Janet is back. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Guest

[Dowel Jones]

The fact that social media manager is the penultimate stage in demon evolution explains so much to me.

[biakbiak]

This total felt like a Buffy episode to me! Not a bad thing but Kristen was rocking some Smidge energy and the tight convos reminded me when the Scoobie gang were trying to figure out a demon.

[ally862]

I totally called Glen turning on the demons!  I never get stuff like that.  Great episode and work that suit Jason.

[Chaos Theory]

Well we finally got the punchline for the long running “not a girl” joke.

Janet has been a little surly since the train.   It’s great that every so often Jason has a moment of insight.

[Ohiopirate02]

In hindsight, only Bad Janet would tell Jason about Blake Bortles right after breaking up with him.  That was a really low blow.

I am glad that we had Checkov's magnetic hot pink furry handcuffs and not Checkov's windchime diaper.  I need to watch the episode again.  I missed Jason pocketing them.  

[LBS]

Manny Jacinto's line reading of "not a girl" when he was on the railroad tram gutted me.  It was so wistful and sad.  And because it can't be said enough - he can wear the hell out of a suit!  I should of known it was Bad Janet when she told him about Blake Bortles!

I am loving this season.  From the pointed commentary of people doing evil things to other people and justifying it because they were just obeying orders and/or they were told they were bad to the silliness of Eleanor polishing off a huge platter of nachos and Derek's sex toys complete with wind chimes, I feel like this season is really going to come to a satisfactory ending.

ETA: Ohiopirate02 beat me to the Blake Bortles clue!

Edited October 18, 2019 by LBS

[albinerhawk]

Going back to watch those forking first three episodes.

[Blakeston]

So are the Bad Place demons privy to everything that's ever happened in Michael's neighborhood? It didn't seem that way in the early seasons, when Sean was unaware of most of what Michael was doing.

If they're not privy to everything that's happened, then if I were Eleanor, I would have asked Michael a question about something from their past that the Bad Place wasn't aware of.

[Chaos Theory]

43 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

So are the Bad Place demons privy to everything that's ever happened in Michael's neighborhood? It didn't seem that way in the early seasons, when Sean was unaware of most of what Michael was doing.

If they're not privy to everything that's happened, then if I were Eleanor, I would have asked Michael a question about something from their past that the Bad Place wasn't aware of.

Eleanor’s neighborhood is in the Middle Place not the Bad Place like Michael’s was and her mission is different then Michael’s was.   I forget what the rules about Shawn’s involvement and knowledge actually are but he has been breaking the rules from the get go so who really knows.

[possibilities]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I like the idea that some demons, like Michael, do have the capacity to change, or do have a less evil side. 

If humans can change, then it makes sense to me that demons can, too. Maybe humans are the next stage of evolution after demonhood! It would explain a lot....

10 hours ago, Dani said:

Hopefully it will be explained next week but Derek could probably keep things functioning enough for them to get by until Janet is back. 

A neighborhood maintained by Derek? That would be hilarious.

Are we really sure only one could be a fake? I still think Michael has been a bit out of character lately.

I wonder if seeing how they all cope with the unfairness of Shawn and Co breaking rules is part of the lesson. Life isn't fair, so why would a test of their moral evolution be fair in the afterlife, either?

Glen being a mole could be amusing, if they send him back to the Bad Place to gather intel once he re-forms. Also, him abandoning demonhood because he was bullied, rather than becoming an even more vicious bully in a quest for revenge, is an interesting choice.

[Omeletsmom]

I still think Michael is a fake.  He was counting on Eleanor stopping him before he goo-ed himself.  

[Sakura12]

I thought Jason might've caught that Janet didn't say "Not a girl". I was so happy that he did. He may be dumb but he does remember things if you say it enough times. 

Janet was acting weird and it was cruel of her to break up with Jason and tell him Bortles got cut. That was definitely a bad place Janet thing to say. 

[Gulftastic]

God, that was good episode. I love it when Jason is the hero. The writing is so excellent on this show, it never seems wrong.

[BobH]

That was great, well constructed and clever, and makes the preceding episodes much better in retrospect, as you see the clues and false clues that they were planting. I especially always like a revelation that depends on a shibboleth, ever since I learned that word from the WEST WING episode of the same name. The only thing that might have improved the episodes is if Michael used that actual word, to Jason's befuddlement. Actually, if Chidi was still part of the group I could see him using the word.

Any confirmation yet if they're going to run straight through thirteen weeks without a break (putting the finale the week before Christmas) or do the usual break before US Thanksgiving and hold back a few for January? 

(edit to add, looks like NBC has the night game on Thanksgiving, so almost certain we'll see a split season. Motherforking sports)

Edited October 19, 2019 by BobH

[Amarsir]

13 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think Brent was an idea that looked good on paper when they were planning the season, but hasn't really worked out that well. He isn't that interesting, and his character isn't that funny. 

His lack of growth has actually made me wonder if perhaps the conclusion will be that humans have the potential to improve but not all do? Because I agree - the character has lots of different annoying characteristics to reference but few actual jokes.

28 minutes ago, Omeletsmom said:

I still think Michael is a fake.  He was counting on Eleanor stopping him before he goo-ed himself.  

Plausible, but I doubt it. First, Vicky has never been that clever and is better at self-preservation than predicting others. And second, if Michael had been swapped it wouldn't make sense for he and Jason to go off on a mission. Either he'd stay behind to keep sabotaging or he'd head off alone. 

I'd like to see Glenn get a bigger role with Team Cockroach now that he's demonstrated where his allegiance lies.

[Bruinsfan]

I'm pretty sure Michael is really Michael, but setting up a situation where Jason willingly goes to the Bad Place and not coming back, leaving just Eleanor and Tahani to conduct the experiment without any supernatural assistance (or worse, with only Derek's) would actually sabotage things fairly effectively.

[whiporee]

I don't think anyone does comfort as well as Kristen Bell. The way she just looked so totally at ease with Chidi was amazing -- the little kind smile, the effortless way she slid into saying things that helped and complimented him.

This is just such a pleasant show. Even with all the hijinks that go on, it just feels very nice to watch. 

[SoMuchTV]

One thing I'm confused about and I probably have some underlying assumption wrong.  They're working out of Mindy's house in the medium place, right?  But they seem to be able to bop back and forth between their HQ living room, and the "good place" plaza, Chidi's apartment, etc.  Didn't the medium place used to be a good train ride away?

[cpcathy]

If I'm not misguided, they are in their rebooted Good Place, which is in the Medium Place. I do notice they seem to be in a set for Mindy's house and not an actual house where they normally film her scenes, which was supposed to be 100 degrees and full of flies!

[SoMuchTV]

14 minutes ago, cpcathy said:

If I'm not misguided, they are in their rebooted Good Place, which is in the Medium Place. I do notice they seem to be in a set for Mindy's house and not an actual house where they normally film her scenes, which was supposed to be 100 degrees and full of flies!

Oh I think that's the part I missed.  Thanks.

[iMonrey]

Well kudos to everyone who figured out they switched Janets at the train depot. I chalked it up to just a weird camera shot because of the body double for Darcy Carden but I guess I should know better on a show like this. Every little thing does tend to mean something.

Quote

In hindsight, only Bad Janet would tell Jason about Blake Bortles right after breaking up with him.  That was a really low blow.

Yes! I even pointed that out at the time, I couldn't figure out why she'd tell him that. Now it all makes sense!

[shoregirl]

Ha! 

[Electruck]

10 hours ago, LBS said:

Manny Jacinto's line reading of "not a girl" when he was on the railroad tram gutted me.  It was so wistful and sad. 

I was just coming to post that the last thing Jason said made me choke up a bit.

[Mecca]

Jason saying he finished the crossword puzzle and only circling the search keywords got to me far more than it probably should have.

[albinerhawk]

3 hours ago, cpcathy said:

If I'm not misguided, they are in their rebooted Good Place, which is in the Medium Place. I do notice they seem to be in a set for Mindy's house and not an actual house where they normally film her scenes, which was supposed to be 100 degrees and full of flies!

Just to clarify, last season they mentioned that they put it in "Mindy's backyard", and Mindy was complaining about how they had pushed her out of her home for the year of their experiment. 

So I rewatched the first four episodes again in light of the reveal of the Janet switch. I was specifically watching for what actions were Good Janet's and which were Bad Janet's. 

Good Janet's

- Complained that the workload for the neighborhood was intense and she couldn't lose focus for a billionth of a second without it imploding

- Started to get aggravated with Jason's jealous behavior toward Derek, including murdering him

Bad Janet's

- Broke up with Jason

- Told Jason about Blake Bortles

- Undermined Eleanor's leadership, and said that their initial chance of success was 9 percent

- Gave Tahani bad advice in dealing with John

- (Probably) murdered Glenn

Also, I thought that D'arcy Carden had a slight smirk on her face after the switch that was reminiscent of Bad Janet, but I could be reading into it. 

[ClareWalks]

36 minutes ago, Mecca said:

Jason saying he finished the crossword puzzle and only circling the search keywords got to me far more than it probably should have.

I CACKLED.

[Sarah 103]

If Jason's goal for improvement is about learning delayed gratification and self control, then going to the bad place is brilliant. It's a classic writers move (who is the worst person/least qualified/most likely to mess up this super important task, and then have them do it). I can't wait to see what happens. 

[bros402]

15 hours ago, Blakeston said:

So are the Bad Place demons privy to everything that's ever happened in Michael's neighborhood? It didn't seem that way in the early seasons, when Sean was unaware of most of what Michael was doing.

If they're not privy to everything that's happened, then if I were Eleanor, I would have asked Michael a question about something from their past that the Bad Place wasn't aware of.

Glen was part of Michael's neighborhood. I believe he wanted to bite the Soul Squad.

10 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

One thing I'm confused about and I probably have some underlying assumption wrong.  They're working out of Mindy's house in the medium place, right?  But they seem to be able to bop back and forth between their HQ living room, and the "good place" plaza, Chidi's apartment, etc.  Didn't the medium place used to be a good train ride away?

They said in last season "Hey Mindy, can we use your backyard?"

[SarahPrtr]

On 10/18/2019 at 12:37 PM, Dots And Stripes said:

Michael saying "Take it sleazy" was actually a pretty good clue it was him.

YOU got to say it???  Fine!  Here, eat a Saltine!

[albinerhawk]

9 hours ago, bros402 said:

Glen was part of Michael's neighborhood. I believe he wanted to bite the Soul Squad.

They said in last season "Hey Mindy, can we use your backyard?"

Gunnar wanted to bite them.

Glen was mostly known for falling into the season one sinkhole. He has other little appearances here and there as a resident of Michael's "Good Place". 

[Guest]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:04 AM, Blakeston said:

So are the Bad Place demons privy to everything that's ever happened in Michael's neighborhood? It didn't seem that way in the early seasons, when Sean was unaware of most of what Michael was doing.

If they're not privy to everything that's happened, then if I were Eleanor, I would have asked Michael a question about something from their past that the Bad Place wasn't aware of.

If Michael actually was Vicky in the Michael suit she could have answered any question. She wouldn’t know everything that happened once Michael started working with the humans but Eleanor doesn’t have those memories anymore. 

[Bruinsfan]

Didn't Michael give Eleanor all her memories back at one point when she'd been resurrected on Earth, hence her going bald and spitting her teeth out like chicklets?