S15.E10: Week 10

[Mabinogia]

I think that if Hannah really had strong "this it he man I'm going to marry" feelings for any of them she might not have slept with them all, but if she doesn't have "this is the one" feelings, then why not bang them all? 

The trouble is, Luke hasn't figured out that he isn't the one because he wants to be the one so in his mind he is and it doesn't matter what Hannah has to say about it. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

"Praying over" is just evangelical lingo for praying for someone.  In the scene with Luke's Sunday School class where they were all gathered around Luke as he knelt they were "praying over him."  It's often done on parting as a big "be safe on your journey" sort of thing.

But what you described is them literally physically praying over him, not just praying for him. 

[LuvMyShows]

On 7/16/2019 at 8:32 PM, LBS said:

So just watched the ending credits with Peter trying to throw the berry in her mouth and completely missing and kind of get why they had to do it twice.... 😉

My takeaway from that scene, was that she got genuinely pissed at him during it, when he was not throwing to her satisfaction.  Not alpha male enough for her.

21 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

Or maybe I'm just hoping. I know Luke's the villain but, hey, at least he looks like he loves her. Jed says the words but his eyes are looking for a way out.    

He really doesn't look to me like he loves her.  I have never seen an expression on his face that looks like he is considering her, who she is, when he talks to her (I have seen it on Peter's and Tyler's faces).  Instead, he looks like he is talking about some thing, or concept, like he is in the process of accomplishing something or pursuing a goal and is saying what he thinks should be said to further his cause.

[Stats Queen]

9 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm bothered by the high standards Luke is being held to just because he says he's a Christian.  When people say that they are saying they believe in Jesus as a divine being and they have chosen to try to follow his teachings.  Try.  It's assumed they will fail over and over. They aren't  saying they are like Jesus, or that they ever expect to come close to his perfection.  

I don’t care whether Luke is a Druid, and Atheist, a Christian, or whatever. I’m not holding him up to any standard except that of being a good person.

He is not a good person, he is selfish, is demeaning to women, is controlling, has a lot of rage, won’t take NO, NO, NO for an answer, is extremely manipulative (but not smart enough, yet, to do that successfully, thank goodness). He has already shown that he is a emotional manipulator and abusive.

I am so, so hopeful that many young women see this show and realize that they do not deserve to be treated this way or that his behavior is excusable, because I may not be a fan of Hannah’s but I don’t wish that kind of hell on any woman (been there, done that, and luckily survived another day.

[PhysNerd]

On 7/16/2019 at 8:09 AM, adhoc said:

Hang on, JudyObscure, I think you're making assumptions here about "her faith". I'm not Christian, but I know there are many flavors of Christianity, ranging from very fundamentalist to Unity. (And each version's adherents are certain their flavor is the "right" one.)

Obviously Luke's Christian beliefs are more to the "right" than Hannah's. You suggest she's not trying to live a life that follows her faith. I disagree with you. It's just her version of being a good Christian is different from Luke's. 

And he did not respect that.  He should have just left the moment he discovered their beliefs were not compatible. That would have been the respectful thing to do, not "school" her and judge her because of her "slip ups".

Christians are not supposed to engage in premarital sex according to the Bible. If a "Christian" denomination proclaims that having sex outside of marriage is acceptable, then it is not a true Christian denomination.  

It's clear that Luke is very religious and Hannah is not nearly as religious as she believes.  She believes there is a God and that's the only Christian thing about her.  She doesn't try to live like a Christian.  Trying and making mistakes is one thing, but she doesn't even try.  Hannah needs to be honest about who she truly is and what she wants.  
 

[tinkerbell]

10 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm bothered by the high standards Luke is being held to just because he says he's a Christian.  When people say that they are saying they believe in Jesus as a divine being and they have chosen to try to follow his teachings.  Try.  It's assumed they will fail over and over. They aren't  saying they are like Jesus, or that they ever expect to come close to his perfection.  

I don't think he's being held to a high standard because of his faith.  What I see is a guy who SAYS his faith is important to him, but only in the sense of not having sex (any more)  and judging Hannah for having sex.   As if being a Christian is ONLY about sexual behavior.   Luke was the most dishonest and the most aggressive of any of the men in the house, while also judging others' behavior.  To me, it's about Luke holding OTHERS to high standards of behavior, but not holding himself to that standard.  

[Just Carol]

I don't know what to make of this, but Hannah wore her most "hooker-y" outfit to her dinner with Luke.  That red jacket, the leopard print skirt and the blingy hoop earrings.  It is odd.  

[rebel2u]

Quote

10 hours ago, Sterling said:

I think she feels this Jed connection largely due to a shared background of growing up in the South.  An intangible connection, wherein she is immune to his tone-deaf voice and triangular-shaped head.  Ewww.....shudder.  But yeah, I think he's her first pick.

Jed 's family may live in Tennessee but I'm not sure he grew up there.  If he has a Southern accent, I've missed it.  At least, no one makes endless fun of his accent the way Hannah's accent has been trashed, and she definitely is Southern.

[EllenB]

2 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

Christians are not supposed to engage in premarital sex according to the Bible. If a "Christian" denomination proclaims that having sex outside of marriage is acceptable, then it is not a true Christian denomination.  

It's clear that Luke is very religious and Hannah is not nearly as religious as she believes.  She believes there is a God and that's the only Christian thing about her.  She doesn't try to live like a Christian.  Trying and making mistakes is one thing, but she doesn't even try.  Hannah needs to be honest about who she truly is and what she wants.  
 

Luke, is that you?  I'm thinking he might have signed up here along with Twitter.

Edited July 18, 2019 by EllenB

[call me ishmael]

3 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

I agree 100%.  It's really as cut and dry as this, as I see it.  She wants to do as she pleases and live the life she was taught by Cosmopolitan magazine and somehow be praised for it by everyone who crosses her path, without exception . . . even the guy that she claims she can "see a future with".  How is she not taking into consideration that a potential future husband is an actual human being with his own set of values and desires and someone who might not want to be with a woman who's just given her body away to several other men right before he gets down on one knee?  

I don’t really like Hannah but last time i checked she still has her body.

[ByTor]

On 7/16/2019 at 7:47 PM, waving feather said:

From her talks with the men and trying to understand where they are coming from, I can tell she is an intelligent person. She listens actively and knows how to read between the lines. So it baffles me that her judgement and discernment is so poor.

I have found that intelligence and common sense do not necessarily go hand in hand.

[waving feather]

9 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

My takeaway from that scene, was that she got genuinely pissed at him during it, when he was not throwing to her satisfaction.  Not alpha male enough for her.

Lol, I noticed it too. She said something like she's not going up to bed with him if he keeps missing the shot. It's similar to how she put Tyler down when he's not a horse rider or couldn't eat the fish. It may seem like just teasing but imo, those are snide remarks and it will start grating fast. She has an odd idea of what is admirable in a man.

Edited July 18, 2019 by waving feather

[JudyObscure]

Every year we watch this show and complain that people are getting engaged without talking about the serious stuff or communicating their expectations of marriage -- and when Luke, thinking they're on the brink of an engagement, talks seriously about the sort of marriage he wants and what would be a deal breaker for him, he's hated throughout the country and called controlling and judgmental.  I didn't hear him judge Hannah at all.  He didn't tell her she was going to go to hell or that she was a bad Christian, he didn't say he was going to blame her for anything that happened in her past and when he found out she had already done what he was hoping she wouldn't do he was instantly making up excuses for her so that they could go forward.  That didn't seem like passing judgment to me, it seemed like a man who loved a woman and wanted them to work things out.

Hannah, on the other, hand was instantly angry and very judgmental.  He was prideful, he couldn't get along with other people, her husband would never talk like that.  She had said she wanted someone who would fight for her but when Luke wanted to stay and talk out their difference of opinion about the fantasy suites she refused to let him. She's been controlling and judging all the men since the first day, setting out rules and expectations and finding fault over tiny things.  With no evidence at all she judged Tyler as a "F-boy" and ruled him out. I think his failure to ride a horse properly was a big fault with her, too.  I feel sorry for any man who marries Hannah because he would have a hard life to live. She had been in love with Luke that afternoon, yet he was ordered straight to the limo that evening, not for anything he did, but because he was unhappy with something she did.

6 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

She wants to do as she pleases and live the life she was taught by Cosmopolitan magazine and somehow be praised for it by everyone who crosses her path, without exception . . . even the guy that she claims she can "see a future with". 

Exactly.

[call me ishmael]

12 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I didn't hear him judge Hannah at all.  He didn't tell her she was going to go to hell or that she was a bad Christian, he didn't say he was going to blame her for anything that happened in her past and when he found out she had already done what he was hoping she wouldn't do he was instantly making up excuses for her so that they could go forward.

When I hear someone say that they will forgive you for your sins that sounds like judgment to me.  Let's face it--and this isn't just about Christianity--but the whole language of sin is a judgmental language.  It was defined that way.  Luke has been saying that to her for weeks.

[DEL901]

4 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

When I hear someone say that they will forgive you for your sins that sounds like judgment to me.  Let's face it--and this isn't just about Christianity--but the whole language of sin is a judgmental language.  It was defined that way.  Luke has been saying that to her for weeks.

I agree.  And I didn't think he was discussing anything.  He was making statements and expecting her to fall in line.  I really hated when he said (and I paraphrase) "I know you think this way but I have to hear you say the words."

[GracieK]

Frankly I get tired of this whole culture of “how dare you judge me”. Our entire lives are based on judgement. Everyone makes judgements on others every single day of our lives. Luke has every right to have standards for the relationship he chooses to engage in. This entire process (and every Bachelor process) was Hannah making judgements on the men and eliminating those that didn’t fall within her set of standards. She has even mocked, ridiculed and expressed anger over those that she judged (always be Cam anybody?). I don’t even like Luke or want to defend him in any way but let’s be realistic.. he didn’t slut shame her or call her a whore. He laid out what he wants in a relationship and seemed genuinely shocked that Hannah felt differently. Luke is a douche for a lot of things this season but I found that conversation to hardly be one of them.

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

and when Luke, thinking they're on the brink of an engagement, talks seriously about the sort of marriage he wants and what would be a deal breaker for him, he's hated throughout the country and called controlling and judgmental.  I didn't hear him judge Hannah at all. 

But he wasn't talking about what he expects in a marriage since I cannot imagine Hannah would think her husband would be okay with her having sex with other guys. Unless she's up for an open marriage, which hey, to each his own. 

His comment was in relation to their Bachelorette relationship and his saying that if he knew she slept with any of the other guys in the Fantasy Suites he would leave because that would be unacceptable to him. In other words he would not want a woman and not want to propose to a woman who slept with another guy days before accepting an engagement from him. 

And that's fine, that's his right to feel that way and I won't even get into whether or not Hannah was right in her reaction but then he says this and the second she challenges him a little bit on it, he backtracked and said that's not exactly what he meant. Okay then. 

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Hannah, on the other, hand was instantly angry and very judgmental.  He was prideful, he couldn't get along with other people, her husband would never talk like that. 

Hannah's point in commenting on Luke being prideful and not getting along with others was her argument that Luke says he loves someone but loves them on the conditions he sets and only if they are who he believes they must be. Her point was that there had been a lot of things about him, a lot of red flags that she could have dismissed him for.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say she wants a husband who can get along with people, who isn't too prideful. Both flaws that Luke clearly has and yet, in her mind, she kept fighting for them because she saw something worth fighting for. And then he says to her that if she did this one thing that he didn't like, she would be so easily dismissed to him, although he claims to love her. 

I'm honestly not going to get into the who's right and wrong on this because at this point this has been debated to death. And I damn sure don't want to get into the Christian values discussion because mama always said, two things to avoid discussing in public - religion and politics. 

However, I've said it before and I'll say it now, this is NOT the show for someone who clearly has the kind of ideals and opinions that Luke has. Yes, Colton was a virgin, but Colton went into the Bachelorette season respecting that Becca wasn't and not expecting her to be some puritan Christian virgin and accepting that his decisions and choices were his. Same with Sean who was a born again virgin. That was Sean's choice but not one he tried to impose on the Bachelorette or the contestants on his season, knowing the kind of show this is. 

The women on The View pretty much said it simply that this was just not the show for Luke. Sunny Hostin was clear that she saw nothing wrong with his not wanting to think someone he would soon get engaged to slept with someone else but she again stated that this wasn't the show for him. Adding that he should have tried to meet a nice girl in church like how she met her husband. 

I am not as intense in my faith as Luke is and I keep saying it that I would never go on this show. People focus a lot on just the sex and that complete act but there is a lot more that goes into intimacy than just the full sexual act.

And the fact is by the end of the season, the lead has had a lot of intimacy with multiple people. We know this because we see it. For example, even if Hannah and Peter didn't go "all the way" in the windmill, would that have really mattered considering they were all but dry humping on that boat? I swear at one point girl looked close to orgasming in that boat. So what difference did it make that she just continued what they started on the boat in the windmill. 

The point is this show is what it is. For years they downplayed the reality of what happened in the Fantasy Suites to sell this illusion of romance and fantasy and not the true ickyness of what the show really is. But the veil has long been lifted on that shit and Luke should have known that.

I don't care that as some claim Hannah said she regretted having sex before marriage on Colton's season and so Luke may have taken that as evidence that she wouldn't want to have sex in the FS. Unless she clearly communicated that she wouldn't, that was his assumption. And as I said, the lead doesn't have to go all the way with the contestants for this to still be a very awkward, icky and hypersexual way to go about finding a wife/husband. So in conclusion, boo-hoo, cry me a river Luke. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, GracieK said:

Frankly I get tired of this whole culture of “how dare you judge me”. Our entire lives are based on judgement.

I wish I could like your whole post a hundred times.  It's all the time everywhere and often people are mistaking "critical," for judgmental.  Judgmental is more of a whole person condemnation and not just a negative opinion about something they've done and it's usually the ones who are pointing and shouting, "Judgmental!" who are doing the most judging.  I'm waiting for the day someone gets stoned for being judgmental.

30 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

The women on The View pretty much said it simply that this was just not the show for Luke.

 What network dating show should he go on then?   To me, good reality TV reflects all sorts of people. Diversity isn't just a matter of skin color. 

Chris Harrison has said he hopes his daughter sees Hannah as a role model. Okay.  Well, I'm hoping that all the teenage girls aren't doing that. 

I hope the next Bachelorette is someone who shows young girls how to reject the boys they don't care for without hurting their feelings, how to stand up for themselves without a big display of anger, shouting and f-words, and how to date men  without straddling them in public.  It would also be nice to see a young woman  modeling how to use the fantasy suites for getting to know the men off camera without necessarily having sex unless he is the one she's hoping to get engaged to in the end.  

[RealHousewife]

19 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

Absolutely SPOT on.... & no, I don't think you're a prude at all.  I think this is basic, common decency.  Yet, those pushing the "if it feels good, DO IT" mentality in our culture, would enjoy making us feel like we are exactly that.  Thanks for your input ~ very refreshing to read.   😊

And thank you for yours! 😀 You’re exactly right imo. I totally think the “if it feels good, so it” mentality has gotten out of hand. It’s nice to know we’re not alone.

[waving feather]

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I hope the next Bachelorette is someone who shows young girls how to reject the boys they don't care for without hurting their feelings, how to stand up for themselves without a big display of anger, shouting and f-words, and how to date men  without straddling them in public.  It would also be nice to see a young woman  modeling how to use the fantasy suites for getting to know the men off camera without necessarily having sex unless he is the one she's hoping to get engaged to in the end. 

So, like Desiree? I think out of all the Bachelorettes, Desiree is the most well balanced. People pitied for being dumped by Brooks, but looking back, she was heartbroken and hurt but she took it with class and didn't throw a tantrum at him or berate him for leading her on. She has nothing to be ashamed of when you look back at her season. I like Hannah, but she may cringe at some of the things she did when she is older.

[truthaboutluv]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

What network dating show should he go on then?

Uh how about not going on one at all? I know right, crazy concept but many people manage to live fulfilling lives not going on reality television. I don't think they were saying, "this wasn't the dating show for you dude and so you should have picked another one".

I think they were saying maybe reality show dating period isn't for him. And again, millions of people manage to date, get married every day without having to go on reality television to do so.

And yes, good reality television should reflect diversity which is why we have had a virgin lead, we've had a born again virgin lead, we've had a lead who was deeply Christian (I believe Emily and Ben were), etc.

The point isn't that anyone is saying Christians and those who hold certain values should not be on the show but that the show wasn't right for LUKE. And everything we've seen this season seems to suggest that was very much the case.

Edited July 18, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[RealHousewife]

35 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I wish I could like your whole post a hundred times.  It's all the time everywhere and often people are mistaking "critical," for judgmental.  Judgmental is more of a whole person condemnation and not just a negative opinion about something they've done and it's usually the ones who are pointing and shouting, "Judgmental!" who are doing the most judging.  I'm waiting for the day someone gets stoned for being judgmental.

 What network dating show should he go on then?   To me, good reality TV reflects all sorts of people. Diversity isn't just a matter of skin color. 

Chris Harrison has said he hopes his daughter sees Hannah as a role model. Okay.  Well, I'm hoping that all the teenage girls aren't doing that. 

I hope the next Bachelorette is someone who shows young girls how to reject the boys they don't care for without hurting their feelings, how to stand up for themselves without a big display of anger, shouting and f-words, and how to date men  without straddling them in public.  It would also be nice to see a young woman  modeling how to use the fantasy suites for getting to know the men off camera without necessarily having sex unless he is the one she's hoping to get engaged to in the end.  

Bravo! Believe me, I’m not someone who thinks you’re rotting in hell for premarital sex or think men are studs for sleeping around and women are sluts. I also don’t mind the occasional curse word and don’t like the double standards some people place on women, expecting them to be sweet and submissive all the time. 

That side, I still believe men and women should both display kindness, class, and basic decency. 

[GracieK]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Uh how about not going on one at all? I know right, crazy concept but many people manage to live fulfilling lives not going on reality television. I don't think they were saying, "this wasn't the dating show for you dude and so you should have picked another one".

I think they were saying maybe reality show dating period isn't for him. And again, millions of people manage to date, get married every day without having to go on reality television to do so.

And yes, good reality television should reflect diversity which is why we have had a virgin lead, we've had a born again virgin lead, we've had a lead who was deeply Christian (I believe Emily and Ben were), etc.

The point isn't that anyone is saying Christians and those who hold certain values should not be on the show but that the show wasn't right for LUKE. And everything we've seen this season seems to suggest that was very much the case.

Maybe Luke just wasn't right for Hannah just as the other 28/29 guys weren't. 

[truthaboutluv]

7 hours ago, GracieK said:

Maybe Luke just wasn't right for Hannah just as the other 28/29 guys weren't. 

I'm sure he wasn't but those other 28/29 guys didn't seem to lose their mind in the environment and that's why I and others lean toward the show maybe just not being right for him. What happened this past Monday was just one thing in a season of things with Luke. The combative behavior with other guys, the toxic masculinity towards them, the judgments, etc. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[GracieK]

11 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I'm sure he wasn't but the those other 28/29 guys didn't seem to lose their mind in the environment and that's why I and others lean toward the show maybe just not being right for him. What happened this past Monday was just one thing in a season of things with Luke. The combative behavior with other guys, the toxic masculinity towards them, the judgments, etc. 

I don't know if I fully agree that some of the others didn't lose their minds in some way (in every season).  They cast it that way for maximum drama.  Cam was all anxious and desperate to get his story out, Luke P came off to me like a whiny baby but at least he made the choice to walk on his own, and some of the others involved with the in-fighting probably weren't their best selves in this environment either.  Lots of people lose their minds in this environment.  That's what brings a lot of the drama, without which there wouldn't be as much intrigue and stuff to talk about.. so in that way, he fulfilled his role and was actually perfect for the show.. just not for Hannah.  

[saber5055]

1 hour ago, waving feather said:

I like Hannah, but she may cringe at some of the things she did when she is older.

Oh, I seriously doubt that Hannah will ever cringe at anything she's done in the past or will do in the future. Girl is perfect -- in her mind. If she ever did anything untoward, it was because someone else made her do it, it'll be that person's fault. Never hers.

Past Bachelorettes have made it through their seasons without copping the attitude that she is The Most Important Person In The World. Not Hannah. Of course, she had that attitude before becoming The B-ette so I guess it's not a surprise.

I think of all those lucky guys she sent home. Good on ya all!

[Crs97]

Luke should have walked when she went bungee-jumping with Garrett.  He expressed his discomfort, she indicated she was following her own plan, and he should have said goodbye then.  She wasn’t changing her mind; he should have known that.

[Andromeda]

On 7/16/2019 at 8:50 AM, Soobs said:

Jed's love pronouncements were unsurprisingly as heartless as his music.

It's not hard to see when they don't really mean the love statements. They mumble, look really awkward, and have to psych themselves up to say it. If it's actually felt, a person sings it loud and clear, proclaiming it from the rooftops, so to speak.

I haven't believed 80% of the "I love yous" or "I'm falling in love with you" because it's mumbled.

On 7/16/2019 at 12:56 PM, dleighg said:

for me Tyler gave a "young Sean Penn" vibe. Not my type.

Yes! Triangle head. Inverted triangle, of course.

[JenE4]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Every year we watch this show and complain that people are getting engaged without talking about the serious stuff or communicating their expectations of marriage -- and when Luke, thinking they're on the brink of an engagement, talks seriously about the sort of marriage he wants and what would be a deal breaker for him, he's hated throughout the country and called controlling and judgmental.  I didn't hear him judge Hannah at all.  He didn't tell her she was going to go to hell or that she was a bad Christian, he didn't say he was going to blame her for anything that happened in her past and when he found out she had already done what he was hoping she wouldn't do he was instantly making up excuses for her so that they could go forward.  That didn't seem like passing judgment to me, it seemed like a man who loved a woman and wanted them to work things out.

Hannah, on the other, hand was instantly angry and very judgmental.  He was prideful, he couldn't get along with other people, her husband would never talk like that.  She had said she wanted someone who would fight for her but when Luke wanted to stay and talk out their difference of opinion about the fantasy suites she refused to let him. She's been controlling and judging all the men since the first day, setting out rules and expectations and finding fault over tiny things.  With no evidence at all she judged Tyler as a "F-boy" and ruled him out. I think his failure to ride a horse properly was a big fault with her, too.  I feel sorry for any man who marries Hannah because he would have a hard life to live. She had been in love with Luke that afternoon, yet he was ordered straight to the limo that evening, not for anything he did, but because he was unhappy with something she did.

Exactly.

Yes! We always complain that they don’t talk about “important things” like politics and religion and values. But now I take it all back! Not only do we now have to listen to THEM argue about what is or isn’t Christian—the bulk of the show discussion is now a theology debate. I take it back! I really don’t care what these contestants value or believe. Hannah and Luke are both idiots and are just perpetuating exactly what I hate about the concept of religion—using your personal beliefs against other people’s. You might as well be fighting over who performs the greater good for humanity: Santa or the Tooth Fairy. The Tooth Fairy keeps baby teeth from ending up in landfills and is at least transactional!  Santa is harmful to the environment with coal in stockings and all of that wasted wrapping paper!

[saber5055]

29 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

You might as well be fighting over who performs the greater good for humanity: Santa or the Tooth Fairy.

You might add Windmill Jesus to that short list. He is currently my favorite made-up person.

[Kiss my mutt]

I would have respected Luke more had he not backpedal about leaving.  If Hannah being intimate is such a dealbreaker for his values then he’s compromising his values as much as he thinks Hannah is. I think he sees himself as her savior and will get her back on the right track with his Jesus and believes if he wants her, than naturally he would want him because he’s used to getting his way even if he won’t take no for an answer. He is arrogance defined. 

[Nika]

Oh my! I am writing from Europe so maybe I see things differently than you guys but if anyone says that Hannah is a role model of any sort.... This is rich! 

I don't see many qualities in this girl to be honest. She is just an average, fun-loving simpleton. She is not graceful, not well-spoken, not particularly intelligent, not secure, maddingly inconsistent, she doesn't even question herself! Zero awareness whatsover! What were the qualities she was looking for in a future husband? Does she even know? Of course I am basing my opinion only on her portrayal in this show so I might be wrong about her. 

She is supposed to be a role model because she had sex with Peter (I am a modern, liberated woman! I have sex! I am looking for a husband but I might as well sleep with someone I have no interest in just because...well he is a "safe option" and will not reject me! And he said he loves me! I don't like him that much but I might as well string him along to build up my ego) then defended herself to another guy (this is my body!!! I lusted after this one for so long and was dry-humping him in the second episode but when he expressed his views on sex, I shamed him for having an opinion! Suddenly I am a fierce feminist, a good Christian and God loves me! And my husband would never question me, no matter if I sleep around! I am a feminist, remember? Cosmo for everyone! ) and set boundries with another guy (I want to be respected! I really want to have sex with you and this is what I want. But to be honest, I am just freaking scared that you just want to sleep with me and use me, I feel unwrothy of you so better not risk).

What a mess of a woman. I am 29 but I swear I was more aware than her being 24. I can relate to her insecurities but why isn't she authentic? She should friend zone Peter, discuss and resolve the issue with Luke as an adult and go for it with Tyler. That would be a great example!  

What is really grating is the way she handled herself in all these situations. She didn't tell Tylor why she was afraid to trust him (showing vulnerability and expressing her insecurities would be a great example), she didn't even try to work things out with Luke (she just got pissed and reacted like a spoiled brat and her responses were conditioned by what Cosmo/magazines want her to be) and with Peter she wasn't honest (of course she doesn't have any romantic feelings for him, it would be a great thing if she let him down easily instead of pretending that there is something there). 

Not a fan of this bachelorette. She is everything but real. She always runs away from what she feels and wants just because she is so damn insecure. This is supposed to be a strong woman? How?  I see a weak girl afraid of showing her vulnerability and risking rejection. She goes for what is safe. And she seeks validation from guys. Am I pretty enough? Do you really love me? Are you sure? The only thing she asks for is a guy who is slightly below her level (not equal or higher like Tyler, no, too scary) who says he loves her. That's all.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Nika

[Just Carol]

51 minutes ago, Nika said:

Not a fan of this bachelorette. She is everything but real. She always runs away from what she feels and wants just because she is so damn insecure. This is supposed to be a strong woman? How?  I see a weak girl afraid of showing her vulnerability and risking rejection. She goes for what is safe. And she seeks validation from guys. Am I pretty enough? Do you really love me? Are you sure? The only thing she asks for is a guy who is slightly below her level (not equal or higher like Tyler, no, too scary) who says he loves her. That's all.

I actually do not see her seeking validation.  I have never heard her ask or question whether she was "pretty enough" or whether this or that guy loves her.  Regarding the latter, she has wondered in the THs if this or that guy does, but not to the guys themselves.

I, on the other hand, do that all the time to my husband and I know that he doesn't like it (and I don't like the responses he gives me).  I would not say Hannah is a great role model, but there are definitely things I could learn from her.

[Nika]

What I mean by seeking validation is not literally asking for it. She doesn't ask but everything about her just screams "please like me!". She still tries to be perfect and it shows. She wants to be liked by everyone, the guys, the audience. Hearing that somebody likes her is her favorite thing. The first adjective that comes to my mind when I think about her is INSECURE and FEARFUL. 

She is so worried about what everybody thinks about her / her choices. She even couldn't defend her weakness for Luke to Jed. She was so fearful while explaining herself to him. Scared that he was going to take away his "love". And only after being pushed by him she managed to let Luke go. I am sure it had impact on this decision that Jed "approved".

Edited July 19, 2019 by Nika

[Bethanne]

On 7/16/2019 at 9:22 AM, DEL901 said:

I tend to forget that Luke is 24, just like Hannah.  A branch of my family is very religious and I remember my nephew at that age thinking he knew everything and every word out of his mouth was basically the word of god and that everyone else was wrong.  He's grown up a lot and knows when not to lecture others now, but he still expects his wife to live by the godly rules that he interprets for her. 

He reminds me of someone who has recently been recruited Into a skincare or cleaning products MLM company and is constantly spouting all of the woo “this is my why” bullshit and asking you to buy their moisturizer or clean your toilets with their microfiber cloth. 

[Crs97]

55 minutes ago, Nika said:

What I mean by seeking validation is not literally asking for it. She doesn't ask but everything about her just screams "please like me!". She still tries to be perfect and it shows. She wants to be liked by everyone, the guys, the audience. Hearing that somebody likes her is her favorite thing. The first adjective that comes to my mind when I think about her is INSECURE and FEARFUL. 

She even said as much on a one-on-one date with Tyler when he told her they didn’t want her to be perfect, just real.  I don’t think she fully believes it, but then again I certainly didn’t at that age.  I agree with everyone here who said she’s too young.  In some ways, she reminds me of the girl with a strict upbringing who goes crazy in college.

[EllenB]

I have watched this show, and The Bachelor, for many years, and not once did I ever think the lead would or should be a role model (whatever the hell that self-righteous-sounding term means) for anyone.  What a ridiculous concept!  And what a ridiculous burden to saddle anyone on this show with.

[nittany cougar]

Exactly CRS97, she is totally rebelling against her upbringing 

Yesterday there were some photos published of Hannah in Disneyland, wearing mouse ears and acting like a goof.  She was playing to the cameras with exagerrated gestures and faces.  It was total famewhore territory. 

She seems very young, even for a 23-year-old.  I don't think she has any intention of settling down in a long term relationship.  I see her going into Instagram and appearances and perhaps trying to date in the Bachelor nation or snag a minor celebrity.  I think her career path might be similar to Lauren Bushnell.  Lauren quit her flight attendant job, became a full time influencer, and is now engaged to a country singer.  

Edited July 19, 2019 by nittanycougar

[Bethanne]

21 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I hope the next Bachelorette is someone who shows young girls how to reject the boys they don't care for without hurting their feelings, how to stand up for themselves without a big display of anger, shouting and f-words, and how to date men  without straddling them in public.  It would also be nice to see a young woman  modeling how to use the fantasy suites for getting to know the men off camera without necessarily having sex unless he is the one she's hoping to get engaged to in the end.  

I wouldn’t hold your breath. While you’re waiting, however, you might want to go over to Tubi and re-watch Trista’s season. Short, sweet, to the point, and girl handled her business like an adult. 

10 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

I am in total agreement with your entire post, but this last line nailed it.  She definitely appears to want the upper hand and seeks someone that merely adores her, obeys and praises her, instead of having a reciprocal relationship, in my opinion.

That 45 second moment while she sat there expectantly waiting for poor Peter to birth out his “I love you” told me everything I needed to know about this shrew. The biggest competitor in all of this isn’t one of the men, it’s Hannah. 

[JudyObscure]

I didn't watch Trista's season ( I should do that) but I did watch Desiree's and thought she was a good example of a kind young woman who had her head turned by a Heathcliff type, but came to her senses in time to appreciate the man she said had been there for her through the whole season.

---------------------

I would probably like Hannah better if I thought she was a bit  insecure or rebelling against a strict home life, but I can't picture any of that from her bio.  She started pageants at 15, something I don't think strict, religious parents would have allowed at all, besides the fact that the whole thing must have caused them a small fortune.  She did the teen pageants in 2010 and 2011, competed in Miss Alabama in 2013 and in 2017, not placing, then finally won in 2018.  We all know she didn't place in Miss USA while Caelynn did, to Hannah's everlasting fury.

This doesn't sound like an insecure, sheltered woman to me but one whose entire life has been dedicated to proving that she's the prettiest girl in all of Alabama. Vain and competitive is what I see.

[Bethanne]

What was most neat to watch about Trista’s season the second time around was knowing the outcome and knowing what a wonderful family they are, 15 years later. You definitely could see a real love story unfold. 

[XoxoGG]

13 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

I am in total agreement with your entire post, but this last line nailed it.  She definitely appears to want the upper hand and seeks someone that merely adores her, obeys and praises her, instead of having a reciprocal relationship, in my opinion.

Everything makes so much sense now with her relationship with Tyler. I've always thought he intimidates her. Out of all the front runners she was always more shy around him. I'm glad she admitted it this episode, she thinks he is too goodlooking for her and (what I think)would possibly overshadow her in the relationship. No no no can't have that for Miss Alabama '18! 

Jed, Peter and Luke are more basic looking to her and she gets to outshine them. Can't do that with Florida Man. 

She is painfully insecure with a touch of narcissism.

Edited July 19, 2019 by XoxoGG

[RealHousewife]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I didn't watch Trista's season ( I should do that) but I did watch Desiree's and thought she was a good example of a kind young woman who had her head turned by a Heathcliff type, but came to her senses in time to appreciate the man she said had been there for her through the whole season.

---------------------

I would probably like Hannah better if I thought she was a bit  insecure or rebelling against a strict home life, but I can't picture any of that from her bio.  She started pageants at 15, something I don't think strict, religious parents would have allowed at all, besides the fact that the whole thing must have caused them a small fortune.  She did the teen pageants in 2010 and 2011, competed in Miss Alabama in 2013 and in 2017, not placing, then finally won in 2018.  We all know she didn't place in Miss USA while Caelynn did, to Hannah's everlasting fury.

This doesn't sound like an insecure, sheltered woman to me but one whose entire life has been dedicated to proving that she's the prettiest girl in all of Alabama. Vain and competitive is what I see.

17 minutes ago, XoxoGG said:

Everything makes so much sense now with her relationship with Tyler. I've always thought he intimidates her. Out of all the front runners she was always more shy around him. I'm glad she admitted it this episode, she thinks he is too goodlooking for her and (what I think)would possibly overshadow her in the relationship. No no no can't have that for Miss Alabama '18! 

Jed, Peter and Luke are more basic looking to her and she gets to outshine them. Can't do that with Florida Man. 

She is painfully insecure with a touch of narcissism.

I think you’re probably both correct. I don’t think girls who are truly very insecure would dare compete in beauty pageants. You need to have some level of confidence to compete against other pretty girls and parade around not wearing much. You’re also right that Hannah didn’t grow up living a simple life going to school and church. I know some truly sheltered types, and she’s not one of them. 

A lot of women also still believe in the whole “don’t marry someone prettier than you.” So I think Hannah is the type who knows she’s pretty and has a great figure, but she still may not like her man also turning heads. Or maybe she’s just distrusting of good-looking men. A lot of people are, especially when you’re young and the stereotype is that they’re all womanizing players. 

I see her as more narcissistic than insecure personally. It’s also hard for me to see a very insecure person participating in these shows. You have to consider yourself a pretty good catch to bother competing both in pageants and in shows like this. 

[nlkm9]

On 7/18/2019 at 10:58 AM, waving feather said:

So, like Desiree? I think out of all the Bachelorettes, Desiree is the most well balanced. People pitied for being dumped by Brooks, but looking back, she was heartbroken and hurt but she took it with class and didn't throw a tantrum at him or berate him for leading her on. She has nothing to be ashamed of when you look back at her season. I like Hannah, but she may cringe at some of the things she did when she is older.

Desi is a doll but i remember cringing when she literally got on her knees and begged him not to send her home / i was mortified for her, so to me it does illustrate that people can have real feelings on this show .

[Nika]

There are many reasons she may be insecure. And participating in beauty competitions doesn't mean she is confident. Many truly beautiful women don't feel the need to do it. They know their value. Hannah is pretty and has a great body but that's all. She is not beautiful in my opinion. Tyler is an objectively handsome guy, she has more girl "next door" vibe to her. Perfect match for Luke. They were compatible truly compatible! 

She may be also unsure about many other things, f.ex. her intellect. Tyler is well-spoken and smart. Hannah? No so much. She is not able to formulate a consise opinion /logical reasoning!  The way she, like, speaks, is like, off-putting. I cannot imagine her holding a more complex conversation about something else than herself and her, like, feelings. It is so hard. Really, like hard for her to, like, speak in full sentences. 

Maybe I am being catty but there's such a difference between her and f.ex. Rachel Lindsay when we consider personality, intellect etc.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Nika

[nlkm9]

2 hours ago, Nika said:

There are many reasons she may be insecure. And participating in beauty competitions doesn't mean she is confident. Many truly beautiful women don't feel the need to do it. They know their value. Hannah is pretty and has a great body but that's all. She is not beautiful in my opinion. Tyler is an objectively handsome guy, she has more girl "next door" vibe to her. Perfect match for Luke. They were compatible truly compatible! 

She may be also unsure about many other things, f.ex. her intellect. Tyler is well-spoken and smart. Hannah? No so much. She is not able to formulate a consise opinion /logical reasoning!  The way she, like, speaks, is like, off-putting. I cannot imagine her holding a more complex conversation about something else than herself and her, like, feelings. It is so hard. Really, like hard for her to, like, speak in full sentences. 

Maybe I am being catty but there's such a difference between her and f.ex. Rachel Lindsay when we consider personality, intellect etc.

I too was hoping to learn more about her-I wonder how much was left on the cutting room floor..I would have like to know more about her growing up, how she started in pageants, etc....

[kira28]

Hannah was so weird and awkward after her night with Peter. So either she was disappointed in his skills or his gushy I love yous were making her uncomfortable becaise she didn't feel the same way and never wanted to see him again. She couldnt even fake a smile. Hmm. 

[bosawks]

25 minutes ago, kira28 said:

Hannah was so weird and awkward after her night with Peter. So either she was disappointed in his skills or his gushy I love yous were making her uncomfortable becaise she didn't feel the same way and never wanted to see him again. She couldnt even fake a smile. Hmm. 

Maybe Peter's peter petered out...........

[Nika]

2 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

Hannah was so weird and awkward after her night with Peter. So either she was disappointed in his skills or his gushy I love yous were making her uncomfortable becaise she didn't feel the same way and never wanted to see him again. She couldnt even fake a smile. Hmm. 

Haha, I can relate and I perceived the situation the same way. The terrible uneasiness of being with someone you were taking yourself into liking. They are so enamoured with you and all you want to do is escape. I learned my lesson years ago. It is impossible and painful to be in such a situation. It gives you a short ego boost but then you feel worse because you are aware that being with this person was an attempt to feel better about yourself. And you only feel worse. It is all rooted in insecurity really. When you are secure you no longer talk yourself into liking people who like you.

[PhysNerd]

On 7/16/2019 at 8:37 PM, Mabinogia said:

That is what is so strange to me. It makes me wonder what really happened to him that he is so laser focused on pre-marital sex being this great evil. It's not. Of all the possible sins out there I'd rather someone I like fuck me than lie to me, kill me, covet my neighbors wife (of course my neighbor is a widower so that would be creepy!), etc.

Really, sex with someone you are not married to is not actually harmful or evil. I'm not Christian so I really don't understand why is considered so terrible beyond the concept that sex is for making babies and you shouldn't make babies if you're not married, but I really, truly don't see the harm in it. 

Christians believe that sex is between a man and woman in the confines of marriage. Having premarital sex is considered adultery because you are having sex with someone who could potentially be someone else's spouse.  Babies (even with birth control) can result from sex, and children who are born outside of wedlock are more likely to grow up in poverty.  If you want to see how bad it is, look at how single motherhood has affected the black community in particular.  Unless one or both partners are infertile, then children are ALWAYS a possible outcome that you need to be prepared for.  Birth control reduces the risk of pregnancy, but it does not eliminate it. 

The more sexual partners you have, the greater risk of divorce.  This consequence obviously doesn't matter if you never marry, but it is something to think about if you consider marriage as a possibility in your life.  Also, when you have multiple partners, it's difficult to not compare your significant other's performance in bed to your past partners.  Many of my friends' marriages fell apart for that reason: their spouse had a better personality than ex-boyfriends/girlfriends, but their exes were way better in bed.  This greatly increased their marital dissatisfaction.