S08.E05: The Bells

[Paws]

Just the fact that Danaerys finds out that

1 she actually isn’t next in line for the throne, but insists on keeping it anyway 

2 by insisting Jon not tell the people he grew up with the truth

3 and calling his telling of the truth to them a betrayal

tells you enough to know that Girl is cuckoo.  

I get that we've been  on the journey with her.

We want to see ourselves in her.

But she always had it in her to be this way.   

[Solace247]

39 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think varys point was that having Dany and Jon co-rule could only work if Jon was willing to go toe to toe with Dany over what's right.  To temper her worst instincts.  But Jons love for Dany made him too weak to truly stand up to her, therefore they would never "co-rule" it would just be Dany ruling.  Which varys thought was dangerous.

Convenient that the show never had an outright conversation about it with the two people callable of making the decision. The show is clearly being ‘crafted’, but not deftly, that’s for sure.

[Neurochick]

I think one of the reasons I liked the episode is because I never, ever saw Dany as a hero at all.  To me she was too much "white savior" trope for my taste.  I hated that scene when the slaves were carrying her around, like she was some kind of "white goddess."  UGH, I think I started hating her then.

I always preferred the Starks, to me the show that began with them, should end with them.  I have always liked Sansa and more now, because despite, or maybe because of the hell she went through, she knows what is important to her, remember when she kept asking Dany, "what about the north?"  Dany didn't say a word to her, nothing, no, "of course you can rule the north Sansa, it's yours."  But not a thing.  That bugged me.  

So Dany burning everything in sight didn't surprise me one bit.  So many actual rulers get that taste of power and say, "fuck all of you."  And let's not forget last season when she burned Sam's father and brother because they refused to "bend the knee."  

[Kanner]

I liked the look Jon gave Dany after she burned Varys.  This was really the first time he has seen her like this and he was uncomfortable with it.

But I loved how they handled Jon's decision to finally not follow her. The contrast between him (only fighting (or not fighting) for what is right) and Grey Worm (just following the commands of his leader). Though I don't blame Grey Worm this was his training for years (plus the Missandei thing). I wonder if Grey Worm is going to tell Dany.

Then Jon kills the Northman? who tries to rape that woman. He is still the Jon that knows what is right and doesn't have a problem backing that up with killing someone.

That look he exchanged with Davos was so "we need to get the F out of here". 

I know this won't happen.  The writers this season don't care about giving  Jon time to process his feelings or what has happened to him.  (Well I guess they really didn't do that when he was resurrected either).  But I would love it if Jon and Davos talked next episode.  Have they talked to each other this season? Jon has never had a problem expressing when he was wrong. I would like to see him get advise from Davos and just be devastated for trusting the wrong person.  Though nothing she has done in Westeros would have led to him thinking she would do this. Burn the Rep Keep? Yes. Burn innocents? No.  Who better than Stannis' loyal man would be able to relate?

[Glory]

You guys! Was Bran the horse? Did he warg into it to save Arya? 

I NEED TO KNOW!

[PatsyandEddie]

12 hours ago, Drogo said:

Arya and the horse, echoes of another woman leaving one life behind for a new one. 

Arya saw all that death and destruction...

And decided "That's not me."

Thank you Drogo for reminding us of these clips! 

[Bannon]

I do want to note that there is no context within which the Euron/Jaimie deathmatch would not have been dreadful.  Really cheesey dialogue tethered to inept direction. Just terrible.

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Yep, Dany listened to the one advisor she could trust, Missandei. Dracarys.

And murdered thousands (tens of thousands, probably) of innocent people.  Fuck Missandei's advice.

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

So Dany burning everything in sight didn't surprise me one bit.  So many actual rulers get that taste of power and say, "fuck all of you."  And let's not forget last season when she burned Sam's father and brother because they refused to "bend the knee."  

A lot has been made of this in light of her going berserk, like we shouldhave seen this coming. I think that's a retro-reading. She'd just been dealt a massive defeat, losing two of three allies and her entire fleet, and the guy she was talking to, Tarly, betrayed his liege lord (her ally) in favor of his queen (her enemy), and refused to bend the knee in front of his other defeated soldiers, whom she had no means of imprisoning, so psycholigical means would help cow them into obedience. She was left very little choice as to what to do with him after that (and if I recall he even said some shit about how he'd never bow to a foreign ruler, etc), so she executed him. I don't get why anyone there, on her side or on the other side, would be like "Woof, I was with her executing Tarly right up until she didn't cut his head off and instead burned him to an instant crisp, I mean wow, what a crazy girl!" 

[Kanner]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I think one of the reasons I liked the episode is because I never, ever saw Dany as a hero at all.  To me she was too much "white savior" trope for my taste.  I hated that scene when the slaves were carrying her around, like she was some kind of "white goddess."  UGH, I think I started hating her then.

I always preferred the Starks, to me the show that began with them, should end with them.  I have always liked Sansa and more now, because despite, or maybe because of the hell she went through, she knows what is important to her, remember when she kept asking Dany, "what about the north?"  Dany didn't say a word to her, nothing, no, "of course you can rule the north Sansa, it's yours."  But not a thing.  That bugged me.  

So Dany burning everything in sight didn't surprise me one bit.  So many actual rulers get that taste of power and say, "fuck all of you."  And let's not forget last season when she burned Sam's father and brother because they refused to "bend the knee."  

I have been neutral to Dany so I am OK with is outcome but it did happen pretty fast for me. I liked the notes that were hit but it would have worked better over more episodes.

Why would she tell Sansa that she could rule the North when Jon was the Warden? I am not a Sansa fan but that was one scene that I was with her all the way.  But for Dany the issue had been settled. The King had already bent the knee.  She doesn't need to renegotiate with the Lady of Winterfell.

I just can't compare combatants (Tarlys) to people caught in the crossfire.

[Scaeva]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I do want to note that there is no context within which the Euron/Jaimie deathmatch would not have been dreadful.  Really cheesey dialogue tethered to inept direction. Just terrible.

There is also the showrunners' tendency to put important named characters in situations where everyone dies *except* them.

Euron being the only one to survive his ship sinking, Arya being the lone survivor among her group of fleeing civilians, ect

How convenient. Valyrian steel couldn't pierce that plot armor.

[tv-talk]

Guess I'm way in the minority but I thought it's not too surprising Dany burned everyone and the Unsullied plus Dothraki massacring soldiers that have surrendered plus women and children is PERFECTLY in line with what they are supposed to be and how they act. They're exactly the troops Dany needs.

Super in the minority that I liked Jamie and Cersei's end. You know what? They loved each other in whatever twisted way moreso than any other 2 characters on the show. Jaime has always been one of my favs and tho hard to watch- it's entirely fitting that the sicko who pushed a kid out of a window went back to his sister/lover. Cersei and Jaime were by far the two closest people in the entirety of the series, so this was fitting.

What I dont like is how they have to make all the men so stupid in service to whatever it is they are trying to do. Tyrion and Varys were 2 of the most intelligent and crafty SOBs in the realm and they are reduced to simpletons. I never thought I'd stop liking Tyrion but damn he's not even the same character anymore- just a fool. And Jon...ugh. Why the fuck would anyone want that guy king now? He refuses to see things directly in front of his face and then when larger machinations turn against hi just stands in the middle of the carnage with his plot armor trying to look heroic and pained. He'll probably die by Dany slipping a knife into his gut as she pretends to kiss him. Just awful.

Arya's story in this one was terrible, just wasted screen time. All I can think is they are setting up her killing Dany. 

As visually nice as it was, the fact Dany and 1 dragon could take out KL in about 10mins despite 50 scorpions was pretty anti-climatic.

I will enjoy "the North" realizing what they've done next week, basically equivalent of the Vikings somehow helping North Africans conquer Europe. Whoops. Interested to see what kind of shitty resolution they have, kind of banking on Dany the All-Powerful as the ending.

[ulkis]

9 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Super in the minority that I liked Jamie and Cersei's end. You know what? They loved each other in whatever twisted way moreso than any other 2 characters on the show.

Granted I didn't watch most of season 5 so maybe I missed a key scene but imo Cersei never seemed to love anyone much.

On another topic, if they really wanted to perform some fan service, they woulda brought Charles Dance/Tywin back just for the heck of it.

[RealReality]

38 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Dany chose Fear... She truly believes that with the destruction of KL the rest of the lords will fall in line and she can now go on to rule justly... She said as much when talking to tyrion about mercy.. This sacrifice of ppl and maybe even her personal honor will ensure that cersei is defeated and the ppl are set free with her as a good ruler... I don't see madness anywhere.. I see rationalization and delusion.. Anger and self-aggrandizement.. But not madness

Also.. Robbie Stark was betrayed... Robert Baratheon was betrayed.. Jon Snow was betrayed.. Dany has had a few ppl question her rule and one advisor start to try and make waves

These are two sides of the same coin.  Justification, rationalization, and delusion are the tools of mad rulers and I'm sure the mad king had all sorts of "really good" reasons for burning people too.

[VCRTracking]

I used to love seeing reaction videos after an episode aired but I decided to skip this one or at least wait until later. It was fun seeing people shocked at good guys being killed, elation at villains getting what they deserved and the joy of discovery of major revelations. This one is too depressing, seeing a beloved character cross the line and go so dark. Even "Hold the Door", the saddest moment on the show had the revelation of why Hodor is called that and why he says it all the time.

[TVbitch]

PS. So very thoughtful of all those people in Kings Landing as they are dying and burning to leave a perfectly straight and clear path for Arya to ride out on her white fucking horse. Jesus God. 

[kokapetl]

57 minutes ago, Drogo said:

We're probably not going to agree whether torching KL was the right thing. 

But I think we can agree... that 50 years from now...

we will all remember the greatest moment of the entire series...

  Hide contents

Remember when they bothered with the hair? 

[Bryce Lynch]

33 minutes ago, Kanner said:

I liked the look Jon gave Dany after she burned Varys.  This was really the first time he has seen her like this and he was uncomfortable with it.

But I loved how they handled Jon's decision to finally not follow her. The contrast between him (only fighting (or not fighting) for what is right) and Grey Worm (just following the commands of his leader). Though I don't blame Grey Worm this was his training for years (plus the Missandei thing). I wonder if Grey Worm is going to tell Dany.

Then Jon kills the Northman? who tries to rape that woman. He is still the Jon that knows what is right and doesn't have a problem backing that up with killing someone.

That look he exchanged with Davos was so "we need to get the F out of here". 

I know this won't happen.  The writers this season don't care about giving  Jon time to process his feelings or what has happened to him.  (Well I guess they really didn't do that when he was resurrected either).  But I would love it if Jon and Davos talked next episode.  Have they talked to each other this season? Jon has never had a problem expressing when he was wrong. I would like to see him get advise from Davos and just be devastated for trusting the wrong person.  Though nothing she has done in Westeros would have led to him thinking she would do this. Burn the Rep Keep? Yes. Burn innocents? No.  Who better than Stannis' loyal man would be able to relate?

Burning Varys was one thing I don't think anyone should hold against Dany at all.  The two of them had exchanged vows that he would never go behind her back, as he had done to other rulers and that if he did, she would burn him alive.

I agree about Jon, he was put in a terrible position during the battle.  He didn't want to kill innocents or men who had surrendered and laid down their swords, and he wanted to stop the rapes.  But, he also had to get out alive and didn't want to kill his own men.  

[Dakisela]

13 hours ago, Lillith said:

The only thing I'm grateful for is the spoilers of the Dothraki going on a rape rampage were false. 

But wasn't that a Dothraki dragging a woman into an alleyway for nefarious purposes when Jon comes upon them and kills him?

[Uncle JUICE]

Just now, Dakisela said:

But wasn't that a Dothraki dragging a woman into an alleyway for nefarious purposes when Jon comes upon them and kills him?

No, that was a northerner for sure. 

[Coffeewinewater]

13 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

For starters I would not have had Jaime crawling back to Cersei. 

This,100x.

I'm angrier about Cersei dying in the arms of her brother/lover , than I am about all the poor innocent people getting burned to death. And pretty pissed about that. 

Jaime finding Cersei  and the two romantically dying together, wtf? I loved Jaime's change over the last few seasons and as of others have said it was all for nothing.  Cersei deserved to die a painful death alone.

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Seriously.  The writers want us to think she was only ever hated in Westeros, when she was hated in Meereen!  She lost a trusted adviser (Selmy) to the stealth resistance group, was nearly assassinated more than once herself, and was deeply unpopular with the newly freed slaves after she tried to administer justice fairly.  Yet somehow, despite having three dragons, instead of going nuts on the population and burning everything, she... opened the fighting pits at others' behest and only escaped on Drogon after it was clear she would otherwise be killed.  

Her reaction upon returning to Meereen was of the "kill them all" variety, although to be fair, it was directed at Yunkai and Astapor and their masters.  She was all for burning those cities to the ground despite the majority of their populations being enslaved.  Tyrion had to talk her out of it.  So her behavior in this episode was foreshadowed.

[Raachel2008]

19 minutes ago, Kanner said:

Why would she tell Sansa that she could rule the North when Jon was the Warden? I am not a Sansa fan but that was one scene that I was with her all the way.  But for Dany the issue had been settled. The King had already bent the knee.  She doesn't need to renegotiate with the Lady of Winterfell.

I think the point of those scenes was to show that Dany wasn't keen on letting any part of Westeros go and that she was not going to negoatiate an inch of what she thought was rightfully hers - and that goes beyond the deal with Jon. It doesn't matter it was Sansa, it could have been Bran, Lyanna, or even Jon saying that. She wasn't going to even consider the idea. 

[Kanner]

1 minute ago, VCRTracking said:

I used to love seeing reaction videos after an episode aired but I decided to skip this one or at least wait until later. It was fun seeing people shocked at good guys being killed, elation at villains getting what they deserved and the joy of discovery of major revelations. This one is too depressing, seeing a beloved character cross the line and go so dark. Even "Hold the Door", the saddest moment on the show had the revelation of why Hodor is called that and why he says it all the time.

I have watched a few so far and they have been the same- What is happening?

Though one reactor did point out the Strickland pulled a reverse Jon Snow with his death. Instead of standing to face the charge of the cavalry he ran. Same director for BOTB so it makes sense for the callback.

[terrymct]

50 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Euron:  "I'm the man who killed Jamie Lannister."

KL: 

Shouldn't the buildings be moving in the other direction?

[Kate47]

I loved that Jamie was trying to figure out how to climb this cliff thing into the Red Keep and Euron stagger swaggers out of the water, all "JAMIE LANNISTER, my nemesis and sworn mortal enemy!!" And Jamie's like "....what?"

[Daisy]

it was @ElectricBoogaloo who said the same thing I said last night to someone else. Dany wasn't going "insane." here. This wasn't a red mist moment - She knew what the bells meant, she knew what she was doing and she wanted revenge, and wanted to crush everyone on her feet. 

And the thing is - this is who Dany always was when Dany was upset, or hurt or more importantly had her pride smacked around - Dany went with the Targ instinct of fire and blood. and it really makes me wonder if Mirri Maz Durr was wrong about Dany's son - but was actually talking about Dany who was the Stallion who Mounts the world.  MMD talked about the one who would lead all Dothraki , and ride to the ends of the earth. So she tried to stop it - but that was Dany. not the baby.

Dany goes to Qarth and the first time she hears the word "No. sorry, we don't trust you, whom we don't know, and your Dothraki, who are kinda murder-rapey-savage-y." What's Dany's first reaction?  " well turn me away and when i get all you know, powerful, i'll come back and burn your first.". 

Dany's first instincts is always murder and destruction. it's just that before people were okay with it because she's murdering masters, and men, and not women and children. even Jorah (more than once) had to point out that just because you are doing it to people you don't like - doesn't mean you are any better. 

Then she actually gets a country to rule as her own (Mereen) and she was complete poop at doing it. Her first action (this is after by the way, her conversation with Jorah), is to match cruelty with cruelty and crucify the masters. Selmy begs her to have fair trials  -she tries this for a bit,but again when hurt (Selmy's death) her first reaction isn't to do what Selmy begged her to do (a fair trial) she burnt the killer alive. 

Dany also said that she will let her Dragons decide who is innocent when talking to the group of men beneath the pyramid. i think people ignored a lot of warning signs how tyrannical Dany was because Dany was always doing it to people we were not supposed to like. So sure we're supposed to turn an eye when she's burning Astapor - because it's slaves owners. We're supposed to ignore crucified people - because they are masters and did it first. But everytime Dany was met with a choice - a choice to actually "break the wheel" that she claimed to want, and be a fair and just ruler (not ignoring the crimes but by showing mercy), Dany matched the cruelty. Despite Jorah/Selmy's warnings not to. 

Dany also said that people can live in her new world order - or die in the old. was she going to do a census?  Dany has always thought her way was the right way (even when condemning the ways of others), because she always felt her reasons were sound and others (who didn't see her reason was wrong). She has shown in earlier seasons that the greater good (due to her reasons) should die that "others might benefit" - and she was always okay with this. 

The show pretty much undercut everything happening in KL with Something Dany was trying to accomplish/achieve. Varys points out how dangerous Littlefinger is because he had no lands, wealth or armies, and the last thing in that Episode was Dany gaining an Army (and she already had Wealth (from Quarth). Varys and someone else pointed out how beautiful and charming Aerys was until he started to go "mad" Dany in this episode looked completely "undone." (mourning, but still). Show shows stores of wildfire and Aery's plans - the next scene (or previous) is Dany teaching her Dragons how to burn or Dany's talking about fire and destruction. (so interesting that then King's Landing is burning not just by Dany's Dragon but her Father's WildFire stores).

Daario flat out told Dany Meereen can go eff itself, so who does Dany leave Meereen in charge? With someone who has zero regards to the people.  Jorah points out if she does the things she did (or says she wants to do). that makes her no better than the ones who did it first - and Dany  ignores him and continually does it anyway (like her first actions in Westeros when faced with people that Jorah/Selmy warned her years ago will not trust her, and will not respect her if she just unleashes her Eastern armies - so instead of showing a hint of compassion and leniency - she burns the Tarlys to show she's not playing around. Tyrion begs her to listen for the bells, it means Surrender, and then - in true Dany fashion, Dany once again, when she is faced wth a decision - she chooses fire and blood. Death and Destruction. for her world order. 

Jon once said the enemy won't wait out the storm - he'll bring the storm. 
So yeah, i would say Dany Stormborn brought the storm to King's Landing - and the show had done a masterful job in showing us that she had every intention to - no matter what it took, or who paid that price. i mean I get getting mad at D&D for 'rushing' it - but it was always. always there. The show was just masterful at hiding the signs in moments we were supposed to see as bad-ass - not warning signs at what she had every intention to do when she got to Westeros. 

[VCRTracking]

Even if after the bells rang Dany just went to the Red Keep and killed only Cersei, she would then take the Iron Throne using only terror to rule over a frightened populace for the rest of her life. If the show had ended just there it would still be extremely dark but in a different way.

[RealReality]

29 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

A lot has been made of this in light of her going berserk, like we shouldhave seen this coming. I think that's a retro-reading. She'd just been dealt a massive defeat, losing two of three allies and her entire fleet, and the guy she was talking to, Tarly, betrayed his liege lord (her ally) in favor of his queen (her enemy), and refused to bend the knee in front of his other defeated soldiers, whom she had no means of imprisoning, so psycholigical means would help cow them into obedience. She was left very little choice as to what to do with him after that (and if I recall he even said some shit about how he'd never bow to a foreign ruler, etc), so she executed him. I don't get why anyone there, on her side or on the other side, would be like "Woof, I was with her executing Tarly right up until she didn't cut his head off and instead burned him to an instant crisp, I mean wow, what a crazy girl!" 

I don't think she had to execute the tarlys. 

But if she did, she could have chosen a humane, or more humane method of execution.  She did not.

She chose the most gruesome way to kill them...and for what, because they made a choice to be loyal to another queen.  

Someone who broke the chains of slaves should respect the freedom to choose.....at least enough to try to give some dignity in death.  Instead she decided to make a public spectacle and kill them in the worst way.

These men didn't betray her, they dared to prefer someone to her, and for that they had to die publicly and in a gruesome way?  To me, that's illogical for someone who wants people to love her.

Ned Stark said that the man who passed a death sentence should be the one to swing the sword.  And on a lot of levels that makes sense.  If you're gonna take a man's life, YOU should do it....not a proxy dragon.  And it gives a person, like tarly, the respect they deserve in death.

She wants to inspire loyalty through fear, and how did that work with the unsullied before she freed them?  

[UNOSEZ]

I preferred this happening to maybe an episode or two of "Dany going mad" I didn't need or want to have the breadcrumbs more laid out than they already were.. Besides seeing her slowly become more paranoid and demanding.. And having everyone look at her side eyes would just had ppl calling "character assassination" sooner.. I liked that up until the bells I wasn't sure what was gonna happen.. Up until then there was still a chance that she could've flown to the keep and offed Cersei and what not... She had a choice... She chose fear.. And im intrigued to see how she rationalized it next week... 

[Drogo]

Just now, terrymct said:

Shouldn't the buildings be moving in the other direction?

[tv-talk]

8 minutes ago, Dakisela said:

The only thing I'm grateful for is the spoilers of the Dothraki going on a rape rampage were false. 

Were they? Pretty sure we saw Dothrakis killing unarmed women and children.

[Law Mom]

[terrymct]

2 minutes ago, Daisy said:

 (so interesting that then King's Landing is burning not just by Dany's Dragon but her Father's WildFire stores).

I thought the Wildfire explosions were a good touch.   Cersei had most of it moved to blow up the Sept, but some remained here and there.  That's could certainly happen.  The green flashes were there to tie Dany's actions to the planned actions of her father.   It's something that takes you a second or two to realize.

[SueB]

This long-assed twitter thread explains why EVERYONE is right.   The seeds for this episode were planted long ago AND characterization was sacrificed for plot. 

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Besides seeing her slowly become more paranoid and demanding.

I don't think it's considered paranoia if people really are betraying and conspiring against you.

[Chaser]

5 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Even if after the bells rang Dany just went to the Red Keep and killed only Cersei, she would then take the Iron Throne using only terror to rule over a frightened populace for the rest of her life. If the show had ended just there it would still be extremely dark but in a different way.

I always figured that if Dany did make it to the Iron Throne, they would heavily imply that the wheel didn't break, but come full circle. 

[Yodabeesh]

16 minutes ago, Coffeewinewater said:

This,100x.

I'm angrier about Cersei dying in the arms of her brother/lover , than I am about all the poor innocent people getting burned to death. And pretty pissed about that. 

Jaime finding Cersei  and the two romantically dying together, wtf? I loved Jaime's change over the last few seasons and as of others have said it was all for nothing.  Cersei deserved to die a painful death alone.

At least she'll be with all of her kids (including the unborn one).

[Drogo]

Just now, Yodabeesh said:

At least she'll be with all of her kids (including the unborn one).

Where she's going, she'll only be with Joffrey. 

[RealReality]

23 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Burning Varys was one thing I don't think anyone should hold against Dany at all.  The two of them had exchanged vows that he would never go behind her back, as he had done to other rulers and that if he did, she would burn him alive.

I agree about Jon, he was put in a terrible position during the battle.  He didn't want to kill innocents or men who had surrendered and laid down their swords, and he wanted to stop the rapes.  But, he also had to get out alive and didn't want to kill his own men.  

I don't blame Dany for killing varys, I blame Tyrion for dropping a dime on him.

Dany and Jon have the best claims to the iron throne.  Who else is even close?  If Jon refuses to take it, varys has no one else to prop up.  Maybe Sansa?  But she doesn't have a strong claim, she doesn't have dragons and she doesn't have Giants.  She has a vastly defeated northern force.  And that northern force is loyal to Jon....who would never support queen Sansa.

I didn't see the poison thing, and I thought varys little bird was mostly giving him information on danys state of mind.

But with no other ruler to prop up and without knowledge of a death plot (Tyrion didn't know of one) varys is powerless, so what was the point of giving him up to Dany at this point? Especially as Tyrion is starting to see that varys is right 

Edited May 13, 2019 by RealReality

[Daisy]

Just now, terrymct said:

I thought the Wildfire explosions were a good touch.   Cersei had most of it moved to blow up the Sept, but some remained here and there.  That's could certainly happen.  The green flashes were there to tie Dany's actions to the planned actions of her father.   It's something that takes you a second or two to realize.

exactly. very nice touch. and she is her father's daughter. "Burn Them All."

I also want to point out - while Jon is all "Not Jon." He basically has had what? 2-3 days (totally) to really sit and deal with the fact that Ned lied to him his entire life (for good reason), He is not a bastard, he is a prince and the woman he loves - the only other woman he loves is his aunt, and you know. capable of burning the entire world down. 

then had to face certain death. then continually has to deal with Dany and her paranoia that he is going to steal "everything" from her. (so you know. please continue to keep this secret." everyone gets mad at Jon for telling -  (like Jon was ever gonna keep this secret anyway) but from my point of view, he needs to talk to someone. and while he sure likes to wallow, as Jon does, Dany never once said talk to me. let's work this out. it's 

1: Sam and Bran are lying. so they can steal what's mine
2: okay if they aren't lying - then don't tell anyone so people can't plot to take what's mine. 

now 3: well you're rejecting me (ignoring the fact growing up in the north, incest/family-cest? wasn't looked upon greatly) so screw you and everything you do is betraying me. 

has Dany once this season taken a moment to figure out how this is impacting Jon? Nope. it's how it's impacting her, and her destiny.  While we saw some stuff through Jon's eyes - i really wish we saw more. this is what he chose. everytime he says "he doesn't want it, Dany is my queen." every pass by Dragon - instead of Arya trying to escape ground zero  - i wanted Jon to truly soak it in. this is what he's allowing by not pressing his claim.

[Drogo]

Just now, RealReality said:

I didn't see the poison thing, and I thought varys little bird was mostly giving him information on danys state of mind.

A girl providing the Queen's advisor with information about the Queen's well-being doesn't require a "The greater the risk, the greater the reward" pep talk. 

[Daisy]

2 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I don't blame Dany for killing varys, I blame Tyrion for dropping a dime on him.

Dany and Jon have the best claims to the iron throne.  Who else is even close?  If Jon refuses to take it, varys has no one else to prop up.  Maybe Sansa?  But she doesn't have a strong claim, she doesn't have dragons and she doesn't have Giants.  She has a vastly defeated northern force.  And that northern force is loyal to Jon....who would never support queen Sansa.

I didn't see the poison thing, and I thought varys little bird was mostly giving him information on danys state of mind.

But with no other ruler to prop up and without knowledge of a death plot (Tyrion didn't know of one) varys is powerless, so what was the point of giving him up to Dany at this point?

that was confusing. 
but i think Jon told Dany so by the time Tyrion told Dany she already knew and was gonna kill him. (but it doesn't change the fact that Tyrion was indeed going to rat out Varys. for something Tyrion knows deep down is true). 

[hnygrl]

What. the HELL. Did I. Just. Watch?

I think the word I'm looking for here is "numb." I'm numb.

One thing's for sure (I think): This totally changed Jon's mind about Danys' ruling the 7 kingdoms. He may not have 'wanted' the throne, but after watching her burn not only the enemy, the innocent but HER OWN SOLDIERS?

I think he's gonna take it. And although Sansa came up under Littlefinger? She is so not the one. Sorry sweetie, but stay your cute self in the North where you belong.

I don't know if I'm angry, disgusted, sad, confused...

Do you think maybe that was BRAN wered into the horse for his big sis?

[Detective005]

3 hours ago, kieyra said:

Yeah! Especially when dragons are involved. Thanks for this history reminder.

/s

Ehm but unfortunately it is.  In 1000 dc a city like king's landing would have been destroyed immediately instead of the constant compromises of Tyron and Varys.  I don't understand why everyone seems scandalized.  This is war, you know.  This is what happens when we send our soldiers to war.  Showrunner understood this point.  They were bold and realistic.  The problem for me is the way they developed the story

[Otherkate]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Some "random?"  That was the Hound, probably in my top five characters.  He knows what living only for revenge is, he loved Arya, and he didn't want that for her.  She respects very few people, but she respects him, and knows he knows what he's talking about.

Aside from that, her "list" has been completed now, not all by her, but it's done.

Could she rise up for one last one, maybe Dany?  Maybe, but to me she looked like the old Arya, a kid, kind, scared, as if she found her true self again.

I'm hoping that means she looks for more in life now than just revenge.

This scene made so much sense to me and I was grateful for it. Going to kill Cersei is one thing, going on a suicide mission when she'll die anyway is another. Plus, this is what I was hoping would happen to Arya for the last several seasons - wake up and live. 

10 hours ago, RealReality said:

I'm also a little sore with dany's perferred method of execution.

We get it, you got dragons, they spit hot fire.

But there is no reason not to pick a more humane method of execution for someone who had vaunted her humanity.  You could behead someone and it's relatively quick and painless (relatively).  Why always go the route that is guaranteed to cause as much pain as possible?  Especially for a man who DID tell you that he felt you were making a mistake.  Or for men who made their choice and chose a different queen?  Yeah maybe you felt you had to kill them but why do it in the meanest way possible when their biggest sin was standing by their conscience?

Exactly. A bit much.

3 hours ago, Lillith said:

2) In retrospect even if it wasn't satisfying Cersei geniuinely terrified and cowering in the bowels of the Red Keep made sense in it's own way. Very Hitler in his Bunkeresque. 

Totally agree. It's unsatisfying in the way that real life can be unsatisfying. I would have loved to see her get gutted by Arya with Arya tossing off some version of The North remembers, but this felt right. In the end, Cersei had as much power and was as special or not special as any peasant in the city on that day. She cowered in fear like any other human and died under a pile of rock. 

I know people have pointed to the scene where Drogo pours the golden crown over her brother's head as proof of Dany being twisted from the beginning, but I agree with the dissenters that that scene is problematic as proof because of how god awful he was to her and to everyone around him. The scene I think of is when Drogo is reacting to the man who tried to poison Dany. He begins to describe, in detail, how he will take the "iron chair" for their son. He talks about raping the women, destroying their stone houses and taking their children as slaves. These are the people of Westeros he's talking about. Dany looks on looking, frankly, as turned on as she's ever been. It hit me on rewatch how disturbing her reaction is to that. As someone else pointed out here, she's been very focused on the IT but has never expressed any interest in the people she would be ruling over or the history of Westeros. She has no real connection to anything there and I think she felt that intensely once she arrived there and it blew her whole worldview to smithereens. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Otherkate

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Revenge doesn't always make sense. Cercei planned her revenge in a cool, calculated fashion. Dany was, pardon the pun, burning hot. Besides, she didn't like that the people of Kings Landing hadn't risen up against Cercei to welcome Dany with open arms. So I do think it did actually make sense in that she took out her anger on people who represented every frustration she's had in Westeros, where she received none of the love and loyalty she was raised to believe would be her due.

You could say that revenge is a dish best served cold. ;-)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I didn't see the poison thing, and I thought varys little bird was mostly giving him information on danys state of mind.

Martha: She won't eat.
Varys: We'll try again at supper.
Martha: I think they're watching me. 
Varys: Who? 
Martha: Her soldiers.
Varys: Of course they are. That's their job. What have I told you, Martha? The greater the risk, the greater the reward. Go on. They'll be missing you in the kitchen.

[Popples]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Revenge doesn't always make sense. Cercei planned her revenge in a cool, calculated fashion. Dany was, pardon the pun, burning hot. Besides, she didn't like that the people of Kings Landing hadn't risen up against Cercei to welcome Dany with open arms. So I do think it did actually make sense in that she took out her anger on people who represented every frustration she's had in Westeros, where she received none of the love and loyalty she was raised to believe would be her due.

This makes me think of the bullshit Illyrio was feeding Viserys in the first episode, "the people [of Westeros] drink secret toasts to your name." Coupled with Dany telling Jon about how the people love him and not her, now I'm wondering if she thought she was going to get another "Myhsa" moment and that was her tipping point.

[Constantinople]

Attention! Attention!

The Golden Company is under new management and now doing business as The Golden Crispy Company

That is all