Leaving Neverland

[Lady Iris]

I wonder if the other victims, the first one who took the settlement and then the trial's victim were approached for this documentary.

[Athena]

Not being a big fan of either, I vividly remember an interview Lisa Marie gave about their relationship because of how she described her and Michael Jackson's first intimate night together. She was around 26 when they first began their "adult" relationship (they met as kids back in the 70s) and he was around 34. She said that he seemed scared, child-like, and innocent. I always found that so strange and disturbing. It seemed clear that Michael hadn't really had any experience with women. I was perplexed why she wanted to be with him as well. Watching her more in the interview and knowing about her life, I felt sorry for her.

I think Lisa has a lot of issues from being the child of a superstar, her mother, and the pressure of being forced into the spotlight since she was born. Add onto that the Scientology. She did love Jackson and wanted to "save" him. I think they initially bonded over having lonely childhoods in the spotlight and she got him into rehab. She actually tried to reconcile with him for years after the divorce, but I think it was more of a mission for her. They started dating around the time of his child molestation charges so I think she did know like the rest of his family that he was a pedophile. I think he used her to appear normal and to collect a living memorabilia of Elvis.

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

Lots of people are giving Drake the side eye for his behavior with Millie Bobbie Brown and others. 

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Looks like Drake is turning out to be an R Kelly type. Drake may actually be smarter than R Kelly and may not actually lay hands on a girl until she’s over the age of consent (not saying his grooming of teen girls isn’t disgusting). However the patriarchy being what it is, men interested in young girls are given more of a pass than men interested in young boys. 

8 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

I get this, but as a mother, it is very hard to buy into this completely. All I can say is that at least these stories remind me of what to know to protect my kids.

I am childfree but absolutely agree with you. This isn’t the case of a mom trusting the wrong person, finding out and then trying to protect their child. This isn’t even a case of a Mom being dependent on the abuser or afraid of the abuser and fearing for her life- and unable to protect her child. These are women that willingly allowed an adult to violate a large amount of social rules (repeatedly) and benefited financially. 

Also grown ups are supposed to know better! None of these parents were so mentally ill or mentally disabled they were not able to know what was approriate and what wasn’t. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't get HBO, so, was wondering if the Oprah interview based on this documentary also aired on HBO.  I thought it was coming on OWN last night, but, didn't see it. 

[jenrising]

35 minutes ago, lovinbob said:

I get this, but as a mother, it is very hard to buy into this completely. All I can say is that at least these stories remind me of what to know to protect my kids. Under no circumstances should my child sleep over with an adult. If a powerful person takes an unusual interest in my kids, there is no innocent reason for it. Too good to be true is just that. There's no such thing as magic.

I agree and I was only saying this in reference to the complicated feelings these women have for Michael Jackson. Specifically the fond recollections of some things. Part of the grooming he did was with these mothers. Flattering and selling his "just a child at heart" story like he did to the public. It doesn't excuse their behavior or failure to put their child's safety above any personal enjoyment or potential benefits, but it does explain some of their feelings - which is one thing those who refuse to believe try to use against the victims. "Oh well if you have anything at all nice to say about him obviously nothing ever happened." Which is nonsense.

[galaxygirl76]

1 hour ago, Rickster said:

Thanks, this is an interesting perspective, especially Robson at the second trial, which puts a different spin on part of the documentary. While on one level I can understand why Robson lied, at the same time I have had trouble understanding why a married 22 year old adult who suffered abuse from this guy, could not support a teenager who had the guts to go to the police. I wish this had been explored in the documentary or by Oprah more.

I also found the information about Robson’s mother delivering him at 1:30 in the morning to Jackson especially chilling.

Maybe the difference is that Michael Jackson is dead now. He could have still been scared at some level while he was still alive and now he's dead it may be easier. 

[NeenerNeener]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:30 AM, Lady Iris said:

I wonder if the other victims, the first one who took the settlement and then the trial's victim were approached for this documentary.

The kid that got the settlement changed his name and dropped off the radar. Gavin Arvizo was contacted by the film makers, but never responded, at least according to some things I read online last night.

Edited March 6, 2019 by NeenerNeener

[Dr.OO7]

Jessica Mullenburg--https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/amp49502/i-was-kidnapped-and-raped-by-my-neighbor/--was kidnapped by her neighbor and held prisoner for three months--and he'd ALREADY been abusing her for years--after the sicko convinced her parents to let him take her on a trip to meet a magazine publisher who wanted to print her short stories.

If a non-celebrity could scam a set of parents like that, I'm sure an actual one could.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Camille

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

Gavin Ardivo was contacted by the film makers, but never responded, at least according to some things I read online last night.

I'd lay good money that after the criminal trial ended (in acquittal) that Jackson paid a handsome son to Gavin Arviso in exchange for signing an ironclad NDA. That's why I think Gavin and his family were basically never seen or heard from again.

While I absolutely blame these mothers for putting their sons into Jackson's clutches, I'm grappling with the universal mindset of the time that this was all benign and OK. I mean, it wasn't like Jackson was hanging around with young boys in the shadows. He was doing it in full view of the public. At the time, my friends and I (we were very young adults and likely around 5-8 years younger than the mothers were) would laugh at how ridiculous it was that he was always with some child. And "ha ha!" wasn't it funny he took Webster as his "date" to the Grammys?! This was all just part and parcel of Jackson's schtick. While I guess it was in the back our minds it was possible he was molesting these kids, none of us ever really entertained the idea he really was. Because he was Michael Jackson. And, like I said in an earlier comment, it appears we were all being groomed, too. (That all ended abruptly when Jordy Chandler made his allegations—I was done believing Jackson's nonsense.) I think the same thing happened with these women, too. It was Michael Jackson. He had his story down: he loved children, he wanted to help children, blah blah blah. They bought it just like I did. Until I didn't buy it anymore—yet they continued to do so. I'm not absolving them whatsoever but I'm just trying to figure out how they thought any of what was happening was OK. 

At least Jimmy's mother has finally come around to what a master manipulator Jackson was but Joy Robson is a hopeless cause. She should be forced to listen to her son's testimony about what happened to him because she let it happen. Own your shit, lady. 

[EtheltoTillie]

On 3/4/2019 at 8:06 AM, jenrising said:

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to vilify the mothers. They were seduced as well. Manipulated so well that to this day they can't help but remember him fondly in part. That's what abusers do. You can still love someone who hurts you terribly. 

Oprah made this her central message on the special.  She has been presenting this information for years.  How did MJ learn the tricks of grooming?  Was he abused too?  Do abusers trade tips amongst themselves?  Obviously he has to pick targets that will be vulnerable to this type of flattery.  There would have been other parents who would have not accepted what he offered. 

 

On 3/4/2019 at 11:09 AM, ruby24 said:

That is definitely the way child molesters think and I noticed that too, every time he would defend himself he would say "I would never HARM a child." In his mind he's not harming them.

This is how R. Kelly and Jerry Sandusky were tripped up too. I remember Bob Costas asked Sandusky in a TV interview (by phone) if he was "attracted" to boys, and Sandusky completely hesitated, stumbling all over his words, NOT denying it, saying he liked "young people," etc. And in the R. Kelly documentary there was an old interview with him where the interviewer asked him if he "liked" young girls and all he did was ask "how young do you mean," and try to qualify it. No outright denial when it's phrased like that, even though every normal person would immediately say no if asked questions like that.

I wonder if someone had used those words with MJ if his reaction would have been the same. Because he switches it to "harm," as if that's a different thing they're asking about. So this, imo, is how you know what's going on in their heads. It's very telling.

This was the kind of thing he said in the Martin Bashir interview.  He said it was a beautiful thing to sleep with children.  Ugh.

[RollingStone23]

The part where they showed Michael at the NAACP Awards was chilling. I remember watching that like it was yesterday. Michael ran back to the black community (like OJ Simpson) and played on the trope of white folks lying on black men to ruin their lives or have them lynched. Instead in this case, it was a media lynching with the result being they would take his money and take his legacy down. If you look at this country’s history it wasn’t that far-fetched. My family and I fervently believed he was innocent for years because of exactly that, sad to say. Whew! There is such nuance to this case that I have to mentally unpack as an adult. This documentary was crazy. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by RollingStone23

[ruby24]

Dan Reed said in an interview that he did speak to another victim, someone whose name is out there as one of MJ's "friends," who did say that he abused him and the same things went on, but he didn't want to come forward or go on camera.

God, I wonder how many there were.

 

3 hours ago, GussieK said:

Oprah made this her central message on the special.  She has been presenting this information for years.  How did MJ learn the tricks of grooming?  Was he abused too?  Do abusers trade tips amongst themselves?  Obviously he has to pick targets that will be vulnerable to this type of flattery.  There would have been other parents who would have not accepted what he offered. 

I don't know how he would have learned it, but since these predators seem to follow very similar patterns, it must be that they learn as they go exactly what kinds of families to target, what kinds of parents are going to respond to the gifts/attention and let you cross boundaries, little by little. He seemed to be an expert at it by the late 80's, right, so he probably started in the early 80s'. As soon as had enough fame and power to get people to do what he wanted.

I bet there were parents/mothers who did reject it and he figured out when to back off and dropped his attention on certain kids. By the way, that Jonathan Spence kid, the one he was constantly with in the mid-80's (right before Jimmy), has never spoken up about any of this, denied it or anything. And imo, you can tell by the pictures with MJ and that kid, that he's troubled/stressed. You can see it in his face. It's so sad (I wonder if he's the one Dan Reed spoke to).

Even though MJ thought he was such a master at seduction, it could be still be that some of the boys did know or feel uncomfortable at what was going on, at least that part of it. I know one of the hardest things for people to grasp about child sexual abuse is exactly that thing, that the child could possibly love their abuser or think that it feels good at the time because they've been seduced, akin to the seduction of an adult person. But like with an adult, you can't make everybody like or enjoy everything you do to them either, so there could be boys who didn't feel right about that stuff.

I think Jordan Chandler was one of those. I remember reading that his mother said MJ begged and pleaded with her for hours to let Jordan sleep in his room with him and Jordan just stood there silently not looking at either of them. That just breaks my heart. What was he thinking? Did he really want that or was he secretly hoping his mother would refuse and then she gives him up to him? It's so awful. Then he goes on not to speak to his mom for the rest of his life (or so she said in 2005). He was also slightly older at the time MJ met him (12/13), and it was only a few months before the allegation so it's possible he may have had some deeper misgivings about what was going on.

[cpcathy]

10 minutes ago, RollingStone23 said:

The part where they showed Michael at the NAACP Awards was chilling. I remember watching that like it was yesterday. Michael ran back to the black community (like OJ Simpson) and played on the tropes of white folks lying on black men to take his money and take his legacy down. My family and I fervently believed he was innocent for years because of exactly that, sad to say. Whew! There is such nuance to this case that I have to mentally unpack as an adult. This documentary was crazy. 

Wow, excellent point. I don't see much difference between Michael and OJ, beside the obvious murder thing.

Michael's desperation was showing at that awards show, just like when each trial came up, suddenly he was calling Wade and Jimmy up and wanted to know how stuff was going with them.

On another note, I also thought Jimmy seemed very fragile. Wade seems better off, he seems able to compartmentalize what occurs in his life, like his father's suicide. He has a kind of "let's move on" mentality, it seems. And just on a superficial note, his choreography for "So You Think You Can Dance" was always some of the best in that show's history.

[Blakeston]

21 hours ago, jenrising said:

It doesn't excuse their behavior or failure to put their child's safety above any personal enjoyment or potential benefits, but it does explain some of their feelings - which is one thing those who refuse to believe try to use against the victims. "Oh well if you have anything at all nice to say about him obviously nothing ever happened." Which is nonsense.

The tactics being used to discredit the accusers are incredibly disturbing to me.

People keep bringing up Safechuck testifying in Michael's defense. They're saying, "He denied the abuse!" as if that was a smoking gun - and he denied it when he was a child.

Can you imagine what would happen if we decided, as a society, that if a child denies abuse took place, that means no abuse ever happened?

The people who smear Robson and Safechuck are no better than the people who smeared Harvey Weinstein's victims, and R. Kelly's victims. They should face the same stigma.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Blakeston

[lovinbob]

57 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

I'd lay good money that after the criminal trial ended (in acquittal) that Jackson paid a handsome son to Gavin Arviso in exchange for signing an ironclad NDA.

A very creepy (and apt) typo. 

[sistermagpie]

The whole "he never had a childhood" always bugged me about him even before because everyone has a childhood. Childhood is just a time in your development. For some people it's a good time. Other people have terrible childhoods. But you can't "steal" it in that sense. A person might grow up and do things they didn't get to do as a kid, which is great, but that's not the same thing as being a child again. They're not experiencing the thing as if they're that age.

So an adult man hanging around with little boys isn't "being a kid." He can't relate to the kids as a kid. You can even see that in the interview where I think Wade talks about how as a kid you don't know you're immature--it was only looking at his own son through adult eyes that he realized how they weren't on the same level. 

Besides that, MJ was behaving this way from like his 20s onward, so if he was supposed to be getting the childhood he never had, he got like 3 of them at least. 

I haven't watched part 2 yet, but my favorite person in the first part was Shane Robson. He had such a unique perspective as a teenager old enough to see a lot of things clearly. Loved him saying, "At some point the hair got permed..." in a tone where you knew how ridiculous he thought it was even then. He seemed to genuinely understand even at the time his mother left that she was choosing her exciting new life over everything else, especially their family, and even the day they left he knew he no longer had that family. 

In the interview both men talking about how often MJ cried reminded me of an ep of Manhunter where they talk about sociopaths imitating emotions to manipulate people. 

[kicotan]

The Cult of Personality has always disturbed me.  I might enjoy someone’s musical talent, but I’m not shrieking and crying and passing out over seeing them in person (insert video footage of the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley...Justin Bieber?).

I lived 30 miles from the front gate of Neverland.  My kids attended a small rural school 20 miles from it before Santa Barbara County pursued him in court.  Their school bus died and in addition to other fundraising efforts, we wrote him a letter thinking that if he cared about children so much he might be willing to donate a few bucks towards replacing the bus.  Crickets was all we heard back.  He NEVER contributed one dime or one minute of time to his local community.  His only interest or contribution was shopping trips and buying local wine.

I knew several people employed by the “ranch” in minor capacities-mailroom, security, that sort of thing.  When the court case hit my hometown of Santa Maria they zipped their lips-wouldn’t make comments either way, didn’t want to be subpoenaed and quickly found other jobs.

[Neko]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The whole "he never had a childhood" always bugged me about him even before because everyone has a childhood. Childhood is just a time in your development. For some people it's a good time. Other people have terrible childhoods. But you can't "steal" it in that sense. A person might grow up and do things they didn't get to do as a kid, which is great, but that's not the same thing as being a child again. They're not experiencing the thing as if they're that age.

So an adult man hanging around with little boys isn't "being a kid." He can't relate to the kids as a kid. You can even see that in the interview where I think Wade talks about how as a kid you don't know you're immature--it was only looking at his own son through adult eyes that he realized how they weren't on the same level. 

Thank you for saying this.  I never bought the, "I never had a childhood" excuse, but it's always been difficult to explain why.  You summed it up, beautifully.

I'm glad I watched this doc, even though it was disgusting and brutal.  I believe Wade and James, 100%.  No one is that good an actor.  I think they're both very brave for coming forward the way they have, and so are Jordan Chandler and Gavin Arvizo.  My only hope is that more of MJ's victims will do the same, in their own time.

I liked Michael Jackson when I was a kid and I sang along to all his songs on the radio, but even then, I knew something wasn't right, about him.  I have always believed he was guilty, because I remember my mother talking about the fact that Michael sleeps with young boys as being a, "Where there's smoke, there's fire" situation.  The adults in my house never entertained the idea that he was innocent for a second, based on his behavior. 

One of the most chilling things in the doc for me was when Michael told Joy Robson, "I always get what I want."  If I were her, I would have pulled the plug on the whole relationship, right there.  That's a threat.  What was he saying, he was going to kidnap Wade if Joy didn't leave him with him for a year?  What the fuck was that?

[spaceghostess]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The whole "he never had a childhood" always bugged me about him even before because everyone has a childhood. Childhood is just a time in your development. For some people it's a good time. Other people have terrible childhoods. But you can't "steal" it in that sense. A person might grow up and do things they didn't get to do as a kid, which is great, but that's not the same thing as being a child again. They're not experiencing the thing as if they're that age.

So an adult man hanging around with little boys isn't "being a kid." He can't relate to the kids as a kid. You can even see that in the interview where I think Wade talks about how as a kid you don't know you're immature--it was only looking at his own son through adult eyes that he realized how they weren't on the same level. 

Besides that, MJ was behaving this way from like his 20s onward, so if he was supposed to be getting the childhood he never had, he got like 3 of them at least. 

I haven't watched part 2 yet, but my favorite person in the first part was Shane Robson. He had such a unique perspective as a teenager old enough to see a lot of things clearly. Loved him saying, "At some point the hair got permed..." in a tone where you knew how ridiculous he thought it was even then. He seemed to genuinely understand even at the time his mother left that she was choosing her exciting new life over everything else, especially their family, and even the day they left he knew he no longer had that family. 

In the interview both men talking about how often MJ cried reminded me of an ep of Manhunter where they talk about sociopaths imitating emotions to manipulate people. 

Extremely good points, especially regarding childhood as a developmental period vs. something that can be "stolen". Our concepts of what children should experience vary from century (or decade) to century and culture to culture--but the fact that it's a finite phase remains the same. And yeah, Jackson had more than his share of years (and greater financial means than 99.9 percent of other humans) to catch up on the "childhood" he supposedly missed.

I'd been planning on writing a post about Shane Robson, but you perfectly expressed my feelings in yours. He came across as so genuine and raw. His description of being at the airport as his mother left with his brother and sister was wrenching. Deserted as teen with a broken father as the only remnant of his family, he was understandably angry and hurt. Yet he reached out to maintain relationships with his (shitty) mother and younger siblings, which couldn't have been easy from such a physical and emotional distance. His pain and frustration were palpable and compelling.

And speaking of (shitty) Joy Robson, I keep coming back to her response to Wade when he finally told her what Jackson did to him: "Why didn't you tell me?" Really? That's what you say to the child who was victimized on your watch? Not "Oh my god, I'm so, so sorry. I didn't protect you; I am SO SORRY. What do you need? How can I help?" Maybe she said those things later, but her first response was accusatory. That, and the fact that she "can't" listen to details of her son's hell paints her as an abject coward. The fact that she was all "Poor me!" when relating how Wade's wife wouldn't let her in the house for months made it clear that things continue to be all about her. She just makes me really angry and if I never see or hear anything from her again, it'll be too soon.

[Cementhead]

I just started to watch Part One albeit reluctantly and I am really having a hard time dealing with Jimmy Safechuck's mother.  As she is recounting the beginnings of this horrible experience her son went through, she is lighting up just a little too enthusiastically for me and I am having a hard time stomaching it.  I realize she is reminiscing of the "good times" at the beginning when they were being charmed by it all but still, she just seems to be enjoying regaling her tales  a little bit too much for me.   Without even watching, I already blame the parents, so watching her light up like a Christmas tree is not going to make this watching any easier for me.  If it keeps up, I will stop watching. 

[qtpye]

11 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Extremely good points, especially regarding childhood as a developmental period vs. something that can be "stolen". Our concepts of what children should experience vary from century (or decade) to century and culture to culture--but the fact that it's a finite phase remains the same. And yeah, Jackson had more than his share of years (and greater financial means than 99.9 percent of other humans) to catch up on the "childhood" he supposedly missed.

I'd been planning on writing a post about Shane Robson, but you perfectly expressed my feelings in yours. He came across as so genuine and raw. His description of being at the airport as his mother left with his brother and sister was wrenching. Deserted as teen with a broken father as the only remnant of his family, he was understandably angry and hurt. Yet he reached out to maintain relationships with his (shitty) mother and younger siblings, which couldn't have been easy from such a physical and emotional distance. His pain and frustration were palpable and compelling.

And speaking of (shitty) Joy Robson, I keep coming back to her response to Wade when he finally told her what Jackson did to him: "Why didn't you tell me?" Really? That's what you say to the child who was victimized on your watch? Not "Oh my god, I'm so, so sorry. I didn't protect you; I am SO SORRY. What do you need? How can I help?" Maybe she said those things later, but her first response was accusatory. That, and the fact that she "can't" listen to details of her son's hell paints her as an abject coward. The fact that she was all "Poor me!" when relating how Wade's wife wouldn't let her in the house for months made it clear that things continue to be all about her. She just makes me really angry and if I never see or hear anything from her again, it'll be too soon.

I applauded Wade’s wife for no longer welcoming her into their home. Jimmy’s mom owned her failure but Wade’s mom is still making it all about her.

The Slate article pointed out how they were turning their children into commodities for their own gain. For how much they talk about MJ loving their families the mothers know their would be no relationship with him unless they give him access to their sons. I also blame the fathers for not putting a stop to this madness.  

[Growsonwalls]

Predators like Michael groom not just the child, but the adult. For instance Larry Nassar is a perfect example. He quickly saw Marta Karolyi's ranch situation -- that she was very good at drilling and discipline, but very poor at dealing with the nerves and emotions of teenaged girls and seemed to think injuries were a sign of weakness. So he quickly groomed not only the girls to trust him but Marta that he would simply take care of the injuries and frayed nerves. So yes the mothers were shockingly naive, irresponsible, and hero-worshipping. But MJ knew so many kids. He picked the weakest of the mothers, He picked the kids with the least support at home. I think all the people were victims here except for MJ. 

I mean look at how he picked Lisa Marie. She was a woman with a larger-than-life superstar father who had a lot of issues. However Elvis was also a loving, generous man. So I have no doubt Lisa Marie believed Michael was the same superstar with demons, but wouldn't cross that line. Doesn'tsurprise me that she left the marriage so quickly.

[spaceghostess]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The Slate article pointed out how they were turning their children into commodities for their own gain. For how much they talk about MJ loving their families the mothers know their would be no relationship with him unless they give him access to their sons. I also blame the fathers for not putting a stop to this madness.  

 

Something else that makes me nauseous is that the moms sort of shift responsibility onto their sons by talking about how the boys "wanted" to sleep in Jackson's room and were "happy" to have sleepovers with him while the rest of the family was elsewhere. The excuse that, to help their kids' "dreams" come true, they went along with these bizarre arrangements is such a load of BS. Apparently it's okay to resign from your most important job--protecting your children--as long as there's a rich celebrity to take the reins. Also? It's fine to move farther and farther away from the room you're allowing your son to share with another adult as long as you can stil have a fancy suite. What in the ever-loving fuck? Basically, Stephanie Safechuck admits that they prioritized a hotel room over the safety and welfare of their child. Does she even realize what she's saying? I don't think she does. Unbelievable.

[Cementhead]

Yeah, I don't think I can continue watching.  I just reached the part where Stephanie Safechuck is recounting how she would sneak up to their hotel suite door to try and listen in on what was going on inside and she literally just broke out into a fit of giggles.  Like full out giggling.  Her behaviour is as disturbing to me as listening to Jimmy speak of the beginnings of the abuse.  I am out. 

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

So yes the mothers were shockingly naive, irresponsible, and hero-worshipping. But MJ knew so many kids. He picked the weakest of the mothers, He picked the kids with the least support at home. I think all the people were victims here except for MJ. 

I couldn't help but think when they talked about all those hours on the phone and all those faxes that those things alone would have had the opposite effect on me. If I had some guy trying to talk to me for hours on the phone and sending faxes my kid was supposed to answer over and over I would have considered him a tedious pest, not wanted to take care of him. I was just imagining myself trying to deal with one of those phone calls, probably just saying, "Uh-huh" every ten minutes while not actually listening. Much less calling me at 1AM and asking me to bring my kid over.

2 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Something else that makes me nauseous is that the moms sort of shift responsibility onto their sons by talking about how the boys "wanted" to sleep in Jackson's room and were "happy" to have sleepovers with him while the rest of the family was elsewhere.

And the now grown boys were such a contrast the way they were so consistently honest about saying yes, they did want these things and they did make them happy at the time. They never think to say, for instance, "My mom thought it was okay and let me do it, so I thought I'd be fine..." They just honestly describe their feelings as children completely under the spell of this predator. They even say that they're sure that if their mothers had said no they would have hated her for it, that they saw it as an us vs. them situation.

In part one, at least, I can't ever remember them ever suggesting how their parents might have behaved differently the way that the mothers imply when they say how the boys wanted to stay with Michael etc. The mothers stress the boys' behavior in ways the men don't their mother's. It's not even like they analyze this behavior to think about why even today they lean on that to explain a decision they kept making over and over to the point where they weren't even asked anymore. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, kicotan said:

Their school bus died and in addition to other fundraising efforts, we wrote him a letter thinking that if he cared about children so much he might be willing to donate a few bucks towards replacing the bus.  Crickets was all we heard back.  He NEVER contributed one dime or one minute of time to his local community.  His only interest or contribution was shopping trips and buying local wine.

Totally unsurprised to read this. Someone in the documentary (Rev Al? I dunno EDIT: it was Joe [thanks @Decider]) was pontificating on all the "good" Jackson did for children, "He helps all children of the world! Blind ones!" And I could not have rolled my eyes harder. He never did jackshit to help anyone but himself. His so-called Heal the World foundation turned out to be a bust and folded in 2002 but, yeah, let's all remember what a real "charitable" guy he was helping all those "blind children" with zero dollars.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

7 hours ago, funky-rat said:

My multi-quote isn't working.  🤔

re: religions hating women/where did Michael learn to groom? - Michael was raised Jehovah's Witness (an extremely Patriarchal denomination), who are now coming under fire for extensive molestation issues.  They refuse to believe the abused unless there were witnesses who will corroborate their story.  Yeah.  Michael himself talked about how when he was in the Jackson 5, he would be sharing a hotel bed with one of his brothers, who would be getting it on with a groupie.  He said he wrote Billie Jean because of the constant barrage of groupies who would show up with a baby, claiming one of his brothers to be the father.

Thanks for the reminder on this.  I just learned about this on the Leah Remini Scientology show.  With MJ's marriage to LMP, there's a three degrees of separation. 

[Quilt Fairy]

To switch gears slightly, does anyone else think this documentary could have been edited a lot tighter and told in 2 hours instead of 4?   For example, how many shots to we need of that long, long, loooooong drive to Neverland ranch with what sounds like the title music of Finding Neverland playing in the background?

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

To switch gears slightly, does anyone else think this documentary could have been edited a lot tighter and told in 2 hours instead of 4?   For example, how many shots to we need of that long, long, loooooong drive to Neverland ranch with what sounds like the title music of Finding Neverland playing in the background?

Maybe that was for atmosphere? To make it chilling and haunting?

Im sitting down to watch Part 2 now. 

[Robert Lynch]

I must admit I am a year younger than Wade, but I remember him with the blonde hair and all during the very first trial. I actually was at first too young to understand all the things that went on with Chandler. Now, when the Bashir interview and the 2nd trial came about, that's when I remember everything. MJ in PJs, Gavin's mother, Culkin and Wade testified before court, the crazed woman with the dove thing, and the not guilty verdict. When the verdict was announced, my family was so split on decision at that point. My aunt said this was a farce, etc. My mom and dad didn't know what to say. All they said was I think I watched a circus. I said, "This is not over." And they thought I was joking. I said, "Something will happen to MJ. I just feel it in my bones. I don't know what, but it is not going to end on good terms. There is more to this. Did you see the look on Wade? It's not the end." After that, they all didn't believe me. 

When they all heard the news of his death and doctor that administer him, I remember feeling very mixed emotions inside me. I was sad at first, but I remember to go back to that last trial and look at how frail he was. I think he even knew back then he wasn't going to live. It was like something was going to happen, regardless of stopping him. And the sad part was that I believed all the stuff that happened to him. I fell for the trick itself. But with this documentary, I guess it opened my eyes to what happened more clearly to the whole abuse thing. 

[maggiegil]

35 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

All they said was I think I watched a circus

I remember the recreation that they aired, I remember coming home from school and watching it every day on TV. I think the fact that a lot of us watched actors portray the trial rather than either the actual footage or reporters recounting the trial contributed to the disconnect. 

I was a teenager back then and I didn't have enough of a comprehension of the legal system to realize that not guilty doesn't necessarily mean innocent. I had watched the Bashir documentary so I knew how odd he was but I assumed that the verdict in the trial meant he hadn't done it. I do think that Chandler must have been paid off and signed an NDA not to file a civil suit which would have had a lower bar for guilt.

Its a pity that the new California NDA law doesn't apply retroactively, I would be very interested in hearing from the other men.

[biakbiak]

8 minutes ago, maggiegil said:

Its a pity that the new California NDA law doesn't apply retroactively, I would be very interested in hearing from the other men.

Does anyone know how NDAs work with minors?

[Penman61]

IANAL but would be really surprised to find out NDAs protect your committing crimes.

[A.Ham]

So I have only seen the first 30 minutes or so of this but I have been reading along and it sounds like it will be brutal. How these mothers got so blinded by the megastar power and hand their children over is beyond me. And yes, their giddiness over how it all got started is revolting—knowing what it ultimately led to, you would think they’d take a more sobering approach to this documentary. 

Michael was a sick, evil prevert that surrounded himself with yes people who looked the other way for a paycheck. Disturbing.

[Irlandesa]

What I find really interesting about the Jackson Estate statement that Oprah partially read is that they call both James and Wade perjurers.  Isn't their alleged perjury lying that Michael didn't molest them?  So they're liars but what proves them to be liars is them saying Michael didn't do what his estate wants people to think he didn't do but that tacitly admits that Michael did do it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be perjurers.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Irlandesa

[Growsonwalls]

Does anyone ever think that MJ unconsciously killed himself? I call it a passive suicide. The amount of drugs he demanded the doctor administer ... these were not drugs to get high. These were drugs to knock you out cold. This isn't Phillip Seymour Hoffman or Cory Monteith who overdosed after a long history of heroin abuse. There seems something very fishy about MJ demanding drugs that completely knock you into unconsciousness for so long.

This isn't based on anything in particular, but I noticed at the funeral that Prince, Paris, and Blanket were ... good looking kids. And actually they looked a lot like the boys Jordan, Wade, James, Macaulay Culkin, etc. I wonder if MJ ever felt that the day would come when he'd have sexual urges for his own children, and he unconsciously wanted to die so he demanded more and more dangerous drugs from his doctor. I also think maybe he thought that death would finally silence all the rumors and stories ... for him. 

[BitterApple]

I just finished watching the second part, and I can't believe the level of denial in Joy Robson. I don't consider either of the mothers to be victims. Even if they didn't have firsthand knowledge of the molestations, they knew damn well there was inappropriate behavior going on. The Safechuck lady was marginally better, but not much. 

Shane Robson is a gem. It's a shame he wasn't with Wade in L.A. during those years because I think he would've shut that shit down pretty quickly. 

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Does anyone ever think that MJ unconsciously killed himself? I call it a passive suicide. The amount of drugs he demanded the doctor administer ... these were not drugs to get high. These were drugs to knock you out cold. This isn't Phillip Seymour Hoffman or Cory Monteith who overdosed after a long history of heroin abuse. There seems something very fishy about MJ demanding drugs that completely knock you into unconsciousness for so long.

This isn't based on anything in particular, but I noticed at the funeral that Prince, Paris, and Blanket were ... good looking kids. And actually they looked a lot like the boys Jordan, Wade, James, Macaulay Culkin, etc. I wonder if MJ ever felt that the day would come when he'd have sexual urges for his own children, and he unconsciously wanted to die so he demanded more and more dangerous drugs from his doctor. I also think maybe he thought that death would finally silence all the rumors and stories ... for him. 

I could see that. I hope he didn’t hurt his own children (for their sakes). I know children can love their abusers (especially their parents) but his kids really loved him. The look in Paris’ eyes at his funeral- she was wrecked. 

Human beings are incredibly complex. I can believe that MJ did those evil things but could feel bad about it and the guilt eat him alive. 

[maggiegil]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

IANAL but would be really surprised to find out NDAs protect your committing crimes.

Its been a big part of me too that  people like Weinstein  or the US gynmastics Dr Nassar have been getting their victims to sign NDA's after sexual assaulting them.

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

Does anyone know how NDAs work with minors?

Its like any contract you sign with a minor, it can be voided by a judge (before the minor turns 18 or reasonably soon after) but if the contract is deemed void then they will be made repay the money in full probably with interest and they're all well over 18 now so its binding.

Edited March 6, 2019 by maggiegil

[Mdoc]

OK, you can minimise the the mother's involvement in many ways, but as soon as you hear a man in his mid thirties say:

"I would like your seven year old boy for a year. I always get what I want."

No. You know whats happening. And you get the hell out of dodge. Carrying on after that makes you completely complicit. 

Also do not agree that Wade seems more affected. If anything, the reason I don't question this is because James looks like a truly broken man. I hope he gets the help he needs. 

[ombelico]

One of the things I thought was very telling in terms of how Robson and Safechuck describe what they experienced is that they both used the phrases "have sex," "perform sexual acts," "our sexual relationship," and so on, rather than (accurately) saying "Michael raped me." It just shows how hard it has been for them to come to grips with the fact that it what MJ did to them was abuse, assault, and rape. And how hard it is for all survivors of child sexual abuse.

[Frozendiva]

I watched both parts - first half yesterday and part 2 today. Both got cut off probably a couple of minutes before they ended.

An interesting examination of the culture of celebrity. The parents were sucked up in to the whole mess, along with the kids. One of the richest and most famous men in the world coming to your home for dinner? Spending time with the family? No one asked WHY? It would be setting off my alarm bells. The Aussie mother wanted the celebrity for herself. Maybe Jackson on some level sensed her desperation, the broken home, issues with stability in the family, and the easy lure of fame and its trappings. Easy target. In his line of work, you learn a lot about human nature. The kids were ripe for the picking. Jackson showed them the side he wanted them to see.

I don't have kids but if I did, I would object to having my little son spend the night at a strange man's home and in his bed. I understand if there is a bad thunderstorm and everyone gets together but that's it.  Leaving my son with any dude for a year? I don't think so. And I wouldn't leave my kid at a sprawling ranch with many secret rooms unless there was sufficient household help - a nanny who helped out or governess or someone to keep an eye on things.

A single man who loves children - has none of his own, has no relationship or is not between relationships. Especially given that he is a hugely popular pop star. Although given his rise to stardom as a little kid who basically supported his family, not surprising.

It was chilling when it was said that Jackson always gets what he wants.

The family probably knew on some level - too much money involved.

Men handle emotions individually. James and Wade would have different reactions to the abuse that took a massive toll on their lives. Living with the secrecy, the fear of allegedly being arrested - that is enough to scare a young boy. And take a toll on any future relationships with anyone.

I actually remember watching some of the old footage from the trials and learning that Jackson had died. The creepiness factor was there but at that time it was just someone being weird or eccentric. At first, when he was still young and before all the surgeries, you could probably think, nah, but as time went on, not so much. Good lawyers, good PR people, good press, and things get buried for a bit.

[blixie]

Quote

I realize she is reminiscing of the "good times" at the beginning when they were being charmed by it all but still, she just seems to be enjoying regaling her tales  a little bit too much for me. 

This didn't bother me I think it's VERY human to want to indulge in the good memories, rather than the terrible truth, for her they are divorced from each other. At the time she didn't know, at the time she believed he was benign, these parents were blinded and seduced by fame, lulled like sp many were into believing Michael was asexual and harmless, I know I was, for anyone who grew up with MJ it was a well  honed message broadcast constantly and one he performed in person brilliantly I'm sure, throw in all the perks, and the sense that depriving  your son of private time with MJ was making him miserable, it was all too easy to rationalize every transgressive request. Also she is owning her shit slightly more than Joy Robson. 

These parents made terrible mistakes, they did it because he masterfully manipulated them into doing it, it doesn't absolve them from failing to protect their children from a predator, but it does make me understand if still not abide their decisions.

Edited March 6, 2019 by blixie

[athousandclowns]

10 hours ago, kicotan said:

The Cult of Personality has always disturbed me.  I might enjoy someone’s musical talent, but I’m not shrieking and crying and passing out over seeing them in person (insert video footage of the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley...Justin Bieber?).

I lived 30 miles from the front gate of Neverland.  My kids attended a small rural school 20 miles from it before Santa Barbara County pursued him in court.  Their school bus died and in addition to other fundraising efforts, we wrote him a letter thinking that if he cared about children so much he might be willing to donate a few bucks towards replacing the bus.  Crickets was all we heard back.  He NEVER contributed one dime or one minute of time to his local community.  His only interest or contribution was shopping trips and buying local wine.

I knew several people employed by the “ranch” in minor capacities-mailroom, security, that sort of thing.  When the court case hit my hometown of Santa Maria they zipped their lips-wouldn’t make comments either way, didn’t want to be subpoenaed and quickly found other jobs.

I lived in Santa Maria at the time of the trial. Although I don’t recall anything about the kids bus do remember every time he felt the walls closing in on him he’d go to the ER in Santa Barbara and next time  at Marian in a Santa Maria.  I remember a family saying their mother died because they couldn’t attend to her because he had his big posse with him crowding up the area. ( do you remember if she did die?) 

There were a group of us who went to the dog park every day for years and so got to know a couple of AP reporters as well as a make up person for a well known veteran female reporter who had their dogs with them those 3 months.  There was no one more shocked at the verdict than we were and I’m sure they were. 

My take on the use of the anesthesia  drug in order to sleep was guilt. It leaves you with no memory.  I have a sleeping disorder and there’s Ambien Lunesta and a truckload of others that can be used via a prescription from a physician.  There’s no reason to be put under anthesia because you can’t sleep.   Same reason he never returned to Neverland = guilt.

 My HBO expired this week but have Oprah’s taped. 

[Neko]

I know this sounds crazy, but the way MJ would discard the boys once they reached a certain age creeped me out even more than some of the graphic descriptions of abuse.  This documentary really exposed how devious and cunning MJ could be.  I had no idea.

[car54]

Remember Rabbi Schmuley?    The Michael that talked to him sounds like more of an adult--a delusional one who wanted to find his perfect woman--a combination of Mother Theresa, Princess Diana, and Katie Couric.    For some reason I am hearing Katie's voice going "ewww".

His comments about Angelina Jolie are flat out vulgar.

https://www.avclub.com/the-michael-jackson-tapes-by-rabbi-shmuley-boteach-1798218779

Oprah interview with Lisa Marie  

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/lisa-marie-presley-michael-jackson_us_574603b8e4b055bb11710d34

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1196395/Lisa-Marie-Presley-said-passionate-lover-So-WAS-truth-Jacksons-sexuality.html

Interview about Debbie Rowe.

https://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/MichaelJackson/story?id=8023028&page=1

8 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

I lived in Santa Maria at the time of the trial. Although I don’t recall anything about the kids bus do remember every time he felt the walls closing in on him he’d go to the ER in Santa Barbara and next time  at Marian in a Santa Maria.  I remember a family saying their mother died because they couldn’t attend to her because he had his big posse with him crowding up the area. ( do you remember if she did die?) 

There were a group of us who went to the dog park every day for years and so got to know a couple of AP reporters as well as a make up person for a well known veteran female reporter who had their dogs with them those 3 months.  There was no one more shocked at the verdict than we were and I’m sure they were. 

My take on the use of the anesthesia  drug in order to sleep was guilt. It leaves you with no memory.  I have a sleeping disorder and there’s Ambien Lunesta and a truckload of others that can be used via a prescription from a physician.  There’s no reason to be put under anthesia because you can’t sleep.   Same reason he never returned to Neverland = guilt.

 My HBO expired this week but have Oprah’s taped. 

After Michael died, Schmuley said that Michael's team had booked him for 50 comeback concerts and that he was physically and mentally not up to it--that he was terrified.    I remember seeing the rehearsal footage for that show after he died, and he looked very frail   I suspect he was afraid he couldn't do it and demanding the drugs was his way of trying to get ready--he knew he was frail.

[Decider]

9 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

Totally unsurprised to read this. Someone in the documentary (Rev Al? I dunno) was pontificating on all the "good" Jackson did for children, "He helps all children of the world! Blind ones!"

 

That was his father, Joe Jackson, who said that.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, Mdoc said:

Also do not agree that Wade seems more affected. If anything, the reason I don't question this is because James looks like a truly broken man. I hope he gets the help he needs. 

I thought for a bit in the documentary Wade seemed a little more messed up than James and that was probably because James realized what had happened was wrong sooner than Wade admitted it to himself.  But after watching the Oprah special, I agree that James truly seemed broken and overwhelmed while Wade seemed more composed.  I do think that Wade having been in therapy much longer in addition to the fact that his professional life has put him in situations where he's in the spotlight more probably helped him during the interview portion.

2 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

I don't have kids but if I did, I would object to having my little son spend the night at a strange man's home and in his bed.

One thing that I don't think any documentary I've seen has really managed to convey is how the abuser manipulates the parents into trusting him (or her).  As a result, it's so easy to "other" them and feel safe from the predators.  But these families didn't see Michael as some sort of stranger.  He ingratiated himself into their lives. He took care of them. He let them take care of him.  He convinced them that, even with his huge family, he was just a lonely man robbed of a childhood. 

Truly accomplished predators know how to manipulate the families into seeing them in a certain image.  They work on the human desire to believe we're good judges of character.  And we tend to trust our own judgment over any evidence to the contrary. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Irlandesa

[Melina22]

6 hours ago, blixie said:

She believed he was benign, these parents were blinded and seduced by fame, lulled like sp many were into believing Michael was asexual and harmless, I know I was, for anyone who grew up with MJ it was a well  honed message broadcast constantly and one he performed in person brilliantly. 

I've often wondered to what degree his utterly bizarre and otherworldly appearance played into this. Because, by the end, he didn't look like any other human we'd ever seen, his appearance seemed to transcend race or age or gender. So it was easy for him to convince us that he was "special". That the normal rules just didn't apply to him. 

I've often wondered if there was any chance he could have gotten away with what he did, if he'd been attempting to do it with his real face. If he'd actually looked like the adult man he was, rather than the weird, alien-like being he appeared to be. I don't think he would have. 

[Armchair Critic]

6 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

My take on the use of the anesthesia  drug in order to sleep

I also wondered if it was also because his nose was so messed up it affected his breathing when he slept