Leaving Neverland

[Simon Boccanegra]

Maybe this is semantic nitpicking, but I was under the impression that HBO simply acquired Leaving Neverland for distribution when it had its world premiere at Sundance, and thus they became a producer of record when the real work was done. That's what happens at film festivals, which have been such a great development in movies over recent decades. A lot of the awards contenders in the fiction category nowadays are little films with modest budgets (even though they may have major stars, because good actors like to be in good stuff), and if they're well received at Sundance or Toronto or Telluride, a major distributor picks them up and can get eyeballs on them. So I don't think Safechuck or Robson was thinking, "We're going to be on HBO!" when they agreed to share their stories with Reed. I could be wrong.  

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I doubt HBO would lose the law suit- I know the lawyers looked over everything before it was even produced. The Jackson estate should just be quiet.

I'm no lawyer, but the family's grounds do seem shaky. HBO aired a concert by him way back in the Dangerous era, 1992, and some agreement they entered into not to disparage him would apply more than 25 years later, when he's dead and rapidly becoming an historical figure? I find it hard to imagine he hasn't been "disparaged" on HBO many times in the intervening years. They've never aired a stand-up comedy special in which a comedian took aim at him? He's never come up as a topic on one of those real-talk politics/social issues shows they have? Not once, not even when he was on trial for molestation? Come on. It looks like grasping at straws, and the surviving Jacksons really just made sure more people were watching and talking about the documentary.

[A.Ham]

My heart breaks for Wade and Shawn. I want to hug them and tell them it was not their fault. I want to shield them from all the vile stuff out there that could come their way. The fact that Wade is getting death threats? Sickening. 

I believe them both 100%. And it saddens me so that they experienced that abuse for years, starting at such young ages. Wade was practically a baby. Neither of them were in any way equipped to handle the intense complexity of their situation. Even once they grew older, the fear was so paralyzing they couldn’t even admit it for decades. That has to be haunting. I agree with those who say that James still appears so broken... I hope both of them find ways to heal more and more each day. 

[Robert Lynch]

There is a statue of him...?!?!

[Scarlett45]

19 hours ago, PikaScrewChu said:

The freeloading relatives wouldn't be freeloading if their brother was still alive today. I thought Michael was nearly broke around the time of his death.

No Michael wasn’t nearly broke. Michael bought the royalties to many of the Beatles songs, plus the writing credits to his own songs- the money was going to continue to flow for a long long time. He was very very very wealthy. 

 

18 hours ago, kelslamu said:

I don't know if this has been brought up, but what if it had been a woman and girls?  What if a woman said she loved lil children and got them to sleep with her?  See, she never had a childhood and wants to relive what she never had? I think it would be just as creepy.  What if Michael had favored little girls?  Would these parents have seen red flags with that?  You can't say having a  little boy sleep with a grown man is any less appropriate than a little girl sleeping with a grown  woman.  I want to qualify that with a grown man or woman you don't know, but even if you did know them it would be just wrong.  Promise of fame, money, or anything should never have colored their decisions like that.  Hell, I'm still thinking about this and am still blown away.  

I was talking to my Mom about the documentary, and I asked her if 30-40 years ago, young boys of a certain demographic were taught to fear sexual abuse or sexual predators the way young girls have always been? Young girls are taught to fear sexual abuse right after we are taught our address. 

I do agree that women sexual abusers get away with things even more than men perpetrators do, because of the perception that women are naturally nurturers, giving, kind and maternal. Too many young people (boys and girls) have been abused by women they trusted- look at Tyler Perry! Patriarchy and heteronormativity being what it is, I’m sure victims of women abusers have a lot to work through even if they are believed. (Which they often are not)

17 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

At least Paul McCartney won back the Beatles' catalog from the Jackson estate a couple years ago so they can't make any more money from that.

Yup he won it back but the estate didn’t have to give back all the money it earned from the royalties in the preceding years right?

[Guest]

13 hours ago, icecweem said:

Red flag 2: When the parents took Michael to court and settled for money, it makes you wonder if they're parents cared more about money than their kids getting sexually abused.

No one ever took him to court for money. The settlements were made outside of court. And it doesn't make me wonder about the parents at all. 

13 hours ago, icecweem said:

I feel like you cant go most of you childhood and adulthood claiming Michael never touched you then ALL OF A SUDDEN HBO wants to do a documentary and here you pop up. Timing is weird especially after the surviving R. Kelly documentary.

HBO didn't commission this documentary and had no input in its creation. Dan Reed made it, it premiered at Sundance and was then purchased by HBO. It wasn't made after the R Kelly documentary and was likely in production at the same time. 

[Scarlett45]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Why does none of the blame ever get placed on the abuser? Yes let's blame Wade and James, they were only children 7 and 12 let's not blame the parents grown adults who had no problem handing their child over every time while the received trips, house and other stuff. Let's not blame the grown man who groomed and abused the boys. Who admitted to sharing a bed with boys, who had his room or rooms completely set up for abuse and to alert him when anyone was coming near his bedroom. No, we can't have that. Placing blame on the abuser? Imagine that! 

Ding ding. We still expect adult women to “not get raped” by not dressing a certain way, not drinking, not being alone with people, not being out at night etc etc which is bad enough as it is; but it’s not the responsibility of these tiny baby children to not be abused! Wade was practically a baby! It was not Wade or James or any other child’s responsibility to protect themselves from abuse, or to even tell anyone what was happening- it was the responsibility of the abuser to keep their hands to themselves, then the responsibility of their parents to protect them to the best of their ability (of course no parent is perfect).

Of course any child that does speak up is very brave and maybe had a great relationship with their parents which made them feel safe (thank goodness) but not speaking up doesn’t mean the boys weren’t abused. They were incapable to consent; as they were children. I think of Maya Angelou who was abused by her mother’s boyfriend, and trusted her grandmother enough to tell what happened. The man got 1 day in jail and was released- her uncles killed him (not that I blame them) but poor Maya thought she was responsible for the man’s death and didn’t speak for YEARS because of the guilt. Poor child. 

I say all this to say that I would think the world is getting better, but to answer your first question it seems like the sexual desires of men are what matter most (even if they are sick violent predators) and it’s up to the rest of us to hide from the abusers the best we can because “oh well if you didn’t end up with broken bones you must’ve liked it” even if the victim was 7😟. 

[Drogo]

23 hours ago, icecweem said:

I somewhat doubt their accounts and its not because they waited to speak out. I think I doubt it because during the documentary, I remember a part where I think it was Wade, was saying the first time Michael tried to penetrate him and I remember thinking, why the hell would a kid go back to that if you were in pain?

There are happily married couples who try "something new" to spice things up and one of them vetoes it because it hurts.  They don't divorce over it, they just don't do it again.  Shit, sometimes they do do the same thing again despite the hurt because one is so desperate to keep the other and they feel that's the only way. 

Wade said multiple times he loved Michael.  He recognizes their "love" was inappropriate/abusive now, but at the time he was a manipulated infatuated teen who felt desperate to keep his lover in a field of many other boy-suitors. 

 

18 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The mother still talking back like it was such a happy time. I can't understand how she can be all happy and giddy.

Because she didn't give a fuck then, and she doesn't give a fuck now. 

 

18 hours ago, kelslamu said:

Why does one person saying that another did NOT molest them negate someone else saying that person did?

People who don't want to believe something will find any rationalization to not believe it. 

We went on a cruise in late summer 2009 after MJ's death.  I'm not exaggerating: every night in the dance club they played MJ's entire #1's playlist.  In fucking 2009, 20 years after they were released, and when we all knew he was a child molester, and the dance floor was full.  The third night (of 7) the daily schedule said that night was going to be Michael Jackson Night.  Bullshit, since every night apparently was Michael Jackson night, except on MJ Night they'd only be playing his songbook and having a MJ dance contest.  We started going to the cigar bar and piano lounge instead of the dance club, I complained to the cruise director about it and made a strongly-worded call when I got home.  I received a $250 onboard credit for the Norweigan cruise I'm never going to take.

He didn't have fans... he had parishioners.   

[spaceghostess]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yup he won it back but the estate didn’t have to give back all the money it earned from the royalties in the preceding years right?

 

Correct. MJ and, after his death, the estate lined their pockets for plenty of years before McCartney got the songs back. It was definitely a shrewd purchase.

[funky-rat]

14 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I'm sure there are family members who believe he did it, and others who don't. But I hope we don't have to see this private family business play out in public. I can respect their desire to present a united front, or to just say nothing in public. At this point, it's all pretty much lose-lose for the family. Hopefully they get to keep a little dignity. Sadly, Michael's legacy will probably continue to rip the family apart. 

What bothered me was that when LaToya spoke out, the family responded by telling everyone she was crazy, and she eventually capitulated.  I'd bet money was involved to get her to change her story.

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's one reason I was surprised at Corey Feldman saying how they shouldn't just be able to say this stuff without proof etc. He's said he was abused, though I don't know if he's named names--does he have the kind of proof he's demanding here?

Before the doc aired, Corey gave an interview that I'm still trying to find where he said that MJ never did anything inappropriate with him, but "man, I don't know" about him hurting anyone else.  He has claimed he was molested by a number of people, but hasn't named most of them.  I was disappointed to see he changed his tune.

10 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

As a victim of abuse, trust and believe, that even if young Wade had spoke up, there is a greater than good chance that they would not be believed by their mothers and that they would continue to bring them around anyway.  I halfway would not be surprised if the mothers knew exactly what he was doing and coldly pimped out their kids. Access to Jackson money and whatever opportunities promised will put stars in peoples eyes. Money is money and if they had to sacrifice one kid for the financial greater good of the family or for a chance at fame (whatever Jackson promised), there are people out there that will say so be it. You think the kids were the only ones asked and promised stuff they only dreamed of having access to? I can only imagine the negotiating MJ did in those "hours-long" conversations. Its important to remember we are getting a 4 hour edited documentary, and these mothers are trying to put their best face forward for the cameras. Like I said before, their total lack of emotion is chilling.

Its important to remember that everyone is complex human being.  I could probably write 100 pages on the complexities of Michael and the various facets of his life.  Its easy to write anyone that's been in his immediate orbit off and as only speaking out for or against him for money purposes. . I don't think any amount of money can erase the pain that they suffered or the scrutiny they are placing themselves under. Is the Jackson family vehemently denying the allegations to keep the Jackson money flowing? Absolutely. But I also believe that it comes from a place of guilt from them also-guilt that they weren't able to protect MJ from his child abuse, guilt over whatever part they feel they might of played in making him into what he was. Would Micheal Jackson of Gary, Indiana retired steel mill worker be busted in a neighborhood pedophile ring or did the Hollywood machine/Joe's abuse facilitate that behavior? Its fascinating to think about , IMO.

My late mother-in-law abused my husband horribly.  She was also horribly abused herself, and always used the excuse that "she didn't know any better".  Bull.  But what always shocked me is that she was a staunch MJ supporter, and believed the kids were lying for some bizarre reason.  She wasn't even a fan of his.  Made no sense.

9 hours ago, Shakma said:

That reminded me of the most infuriating moment of the R. Kelly doc, where one of the jurors from his trial talked about going with a not guilty verdict because he didn't like the way the girls on the stand dressed, or acted.  Yeah, that's always a good reason to acquit a monster who preys on children.

People suck.

There were jurors on the OJ case who said they voted "not guilty" as retaliation for what the LAPD had done in the past.

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, funky-rat said:

What bothered me was that when LaToya spoke out, the family responded by telling everyone she was crazy, and she eventually capitulated.  I'd bet money was involved to get her to change her story.

Before the doc aired, Corey gave an interview that I'm still trying to find where he said that MJ never did anything inappropriate with him, but "man, I don't know" about him hurting anyone else.  He has claimed he was molested by a number of people, but hasn't named most of them.  I was disappointed to see he changed his tune.

My late mother-in-law abused my husband horribly.  She was also horribly abused herself, and always used the excuse that "she didn't know any better".  Bull.  But what always shocked me is that she was a staunch MJ supporter, and believed the kids were lying for some bizarre reason.  She wasn't even a fan of his.  Made no sense.

There were jurors on the OJ case who said they voted "not guilty" as retaliation for what the LAPD had done in the past.

Honestly, I think there was more than one. Johnny was able to manipulate the jury to make the case not about OJ but about racial injustice and the prosecution was just arguing the facts and had no understanding of how to counter that in any manner. OJ and MJ totally ignore the black community until they are in trouble.

[Simon Boccanegra]

48 minutes ago, funky-rat said:

What bothered me was that when LaToya spoke out, the family responded by telling everyone she was crazy, and she eventually capitulated.  I'd bet money was involved to get her to change her story.

At the time she was publicly speaking against MJ, she was in that bizarre marriage to her manager, which sounds like something out of Billie Holiday's life (except, you know, with an artist of less legendary standing). He allegedly somehow married her against her will, but it actually reads to me like a classic case of a girl growing up to marry a version of her father. He was mismanaging her, robbing her, physically abusing her. Maybe escaping that (with the help of one of the brothers) and returning to the family fold just made her more pliant and accommodating. I'd understand if the Jacksons looked better by comparison. So even if there were truth in many of her claims, she was willing to put it all under the banner of "My husband made me do it."

[PikaScrewChu]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

No Michael wasn’t nearly broke. Michael bought the royalties to many of the Beatles songs, plus the writing credits to his own songs- the money was going to continue to flow for a long long time. He was very very very wealthy. 

Interesting. I was reading up on all that. There is an article from 2006 on the catalog. The details of the agreement were never made public but Sony was offered half of his stake (he owned 50% by 2006). Jackson also owed 25 million on Neverland about a year before his death before Colony Capital stepped in and bought off the loan. Colony Capital has been trying to sell Neverland for quite a while and there have been no buyers.

I suspect he didn't have a shrewd financial advisor. There's no way he should have been owing that much money and needing to re-finance so often.

[AgentRXS]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

OJ and MJ totally ignore the black community until they are in trouble.

Its telling that Emmanuel Lewis was the only black boy (and arguably the 1st boy that he started inappropriately hanging around). I wonder how much of picking young White victims was preference vs someone directing him or him figuring out that he needed to actively avoid black children because he would lose his standing in the Black community if it ever came out that he molested a young black child. One of the most prominent narratives of the people against this documentary is that is is two white boys who took advantage of MJ when he was alive but are now trying to tarnish a legendary black man's reputation after his death. I can't help but feel that this exactly why he chose who he did.

Another way he was laying the groundwork of protecting himself against any future allegations is to start spouting out against his record label shortly before his death. There are people who believe Sony had him killed because he was leaving the label/speaking out against them---if he was still alive, you can be sure that he would find away to connect this documentary to Sony too. So many layers to his manipulation.

Here's the creepy as fuck photos of Thriller era MJ with Emmanuel Lewis: https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/michael-jackson-emmanuel-lewis-1983-at-least-1993/

Here's MJ manipulating the crowd about the evils of his record label:

Edited March 7, 2019 by AgentRXS

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

Its telling that Emmanuel Lewis was the only black boy (and arguably the 1st boy that he started inappropriately hanging around). I wonder how much of picking young White victims was preference vs someone directing him or him figuring out that he needed to actively avoid black children because he would lose his standing in the Black community if it ever came out that he molested a young black child.

My Mom asked about this while watching the documentary, and I speculated it could have been that 1. A young black child would’ve been too close to reliving his own childhood trauma (if that’s what happened to him- it’s not unlikely), 2. Opportunity- Michael tended to target kids in show business or who wanted to be in show business and that audience was predominately white, 3. A self loathing of his own blackness that made him “attracted” to these very handsome white children due in part to their whiteness. 

Also I think black people are a little more cynical (of course everyone is an invidual and this is a generalization)- a black parent selling their child to a pedophile would never get away with “oh well I didn’t know” in the black community. Not saying black parents would be above it (look at all the parents of R Kelly’s victims!) but the idea that they didn’t know just wouldn’t fly the same way. 

[sistermagpie]

Just finally saw part 2 and what fascinates me about Joy Robson is how she keeps finding little ways to speak about herself positively under the cover of talking about someone else. (I'm almost surprised she details how she told Wade that if MJ didn't molest him he *had* to testify on his friends behalf because he and Macauley Culkin were the only people standing between Michael and CERTAIN DEATH in jail--she basically said that if he wanted to keep his secret he had to testify. I think she still feels like she was setting a good moral example there.)

Specifically, there was the moment where she was I think trying to say that Wade's dad sometimes rallied out of his depression and felt a little better and her example was the time he told her that she should never doubt she did the right thing by leaving him because not only did she get Wade his career but she forced her husband to learn to stand on his own two feet instead of depending on her all the time. 

First, the guy was very depressed so I wouldn't take any opinions he gave about how it was better for everyone if he was abandoned and hurt as being objective. But also wow, great way to in one line claim 1) your ex wasn't that depressed, 2) Tell us you alone were supporting everyone in the family before you left, 3) absolve yourself of any criticism about breaking up the family and 4) give yourself credit for Wade's career.** I think it's the only time she reports anything her husband ever said and it's a glowing endorsement of herself. 

Then later, talking about the day he finally told her the truth in a therapy session, she says they sobbed together (like 2 victims together) and then she told him that she was "somewhat responsible" for what happened. Really? Just somewhat? Yes, Michael was the one who was really responsible but in the moment where your son just told you this it's amazing you're already qualifying yourself as only "somewhat" responsible instead of going straight to "What have I done?" Then she follows it up by saying that was apparently what Wade wanted to hear, like she'd really come through with that weak reaction. (So glad the first people in his life he actually told were his wife and Shane--who seems like the person who might have already suspected it, especially given his wife's dream.)

Then in one moment where there seemed to be some ironic editing we got her upset about Wade's wife not wanting her in the house and Wade himself saying he felt no feelings for her, claiming that she'd never had this sort of thing happen before because she always had such good relationships with her family etc.

Cut to Shane is saying how he'll have a hard time forgiving his mother for this and reminding us he was already angry and resentful because she broke up the family. Like, lady, you were already the main source of hurt for your family before this and you still seem to think of yourself as the heart and soul everyone loves.

The director claimed that she couldn't have known because Joy would absolutely have gone after anyone who tried to hurt her kid but that really falls flat given how she not only gave Michael all the unsupervised time with Wade he wanted but happily left Shane behind to look after a mentally ill father when he was 18.

I do like that both men seemed to marry women with basically sunny dispositions who were nevertheless ready to stick it out through trouble.

** Wade's career really seems to come entirely from his own talent and passion -- same thing that won him that first dance contest in Brisbane. Seems like he built his own career teaching that dance class at the studio he attended and attracting students and professionals. His mom bringing him to LA put him in a place to be spotted by the likes of Brittany Spears and NSYNC when he was still a minor, but I honestly think he might have had just as fulfilling a career out of Jackson's shadow and he might very well have made it to LA on his own too. MJ's promises to make those kids stars were completely empty.

I'm a sucker for family drama and the dynamics of the Robson family completely fascinate me now.

Edited March 7, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Blakeston]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

My Mom asked about this while watching the documentary, and I speculated it could have been that 1. A young black child would’ve been too close to reliving his own childhood trauma (if that’s what happened to him- it’s not unlikely), 2. Opportunity- Michael tended to target kids in show business or who wanted to be in show business and that audience was predominately white, 3. A self loathing of his own blackness that made him “attracted” to these very handsome white children due in part to their whiteness. 

I strongly suspect it's #3.

At his trial, people commented that with the exception of Macaulay Culkin, all of MJ's "friends" who testified (either for the prosecution or the defense) looked remarkably similar - as if they were all related. He definitely had a type that appealed to him.

As evidenced by how similar Wade and James look.

[funky-rat]

29 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

Here's the creepy as fuck photos of Thriller era MJ with Emmanuel Lewis: https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/michael-jackson-emmanuel-lewis-1983-at-least-1993/

OMG - the one with him and MJ in bed with baby bottles?  **SHUDDER**

It's hard to believe that it wasn't **that** long ago, when the internet was still a relatively new thing and pre 9/11, when people didn't look at life with a different perspective, that many people saw celebrities (A-list or otherwise) as a somewhat safe option for their kids to work with, and that doors might open for them.  John K, the guy who invented and drew Ren and Stimpy and other cartoons was always seen as a decent guy by the public, but in actuality had a penchant for teenage girls, and had a few at his disposal, under the guise of giving them artist internships.  Some parents saw it as a good thing, as he was well connected ,and wrongly assumed that there would be plenty of staff and other adults to keep an eye on things. 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/arianelange/john-kricfalusi-ren-stimpy-underage-sexual-abuse

[Penman61]

2 hours ago, funky-rat said:

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Specifically, there was the moment where she was I think trying to say that Wade's dad sometimes rallied out of his depression and felt a little better and her example was the time he told her that she should never doubt she did the right thing by leaving him because not only did she get Wade his career but she forced her husband to learn to stand on his own two feet instead of depending on her all the time. 

FWIW, that moment read as total BS to me.  Too self-absolving and self-aggrandizing--and no one's around to contradict you!  How convenient...

But it's also unintentionally revealing as it shows what she (unconsciously?) feels most guilty about: That she pimped out her child for her own gain and precipitated her depressed husband's suicide.  She feels so guilty she makes up this completely incredible absolution story.  Fascinating, if disgusting.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Penman61

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Wade's career really seems to come entirely from his own talent and passion -- same thing that won him that first dance contest in Brisbane. Seems like he built his own career teaching that dance class at the studio he attended and attracting students and professionals. His mom bringing him to LA put him in a place to be spotted by the likes of Brittany Spears and NSYNC when he was still a minor, but I honestly think he might have had just as fulfilling a career out of Jackson's shadow and he might very well have made it to LA on his own too. MJ's promises to make those kids stars were completely empty.

Wade’s career came out of his god given talent and hard work. Yes the right people saw him at the right time, but MJ didn’t make his career- even if he had, that was the least he could do after abusing him for years. Wade deserves all his success, but that doesn’t make up for what happened to him. 

1 minute ago, Blakeston said:

I strongly suspect it's #3.

At his trial, people commented that with the exception of Macaulay Culkin, all of MJ's "friends" who testified (either for the prosecution or the defense) looked remarkably similar - as if they were all related. He definitely had a type that appealed to him.

As evidenced by how similar Wade and James look.

I don’t think Wade and James look particularly alike, other than both being white and male (but that’s just me). Facially James has more “classic” features and did as a child, Wade was adorable with an energy and love of dance that radiated through the screen. 

You could very well be right, I don’t recall how the witnesses at the trial looked. 

[ellenr33]

I think James seemed more broken because his abuse happened more often. I think Wade's went on longer in his life but from the sounds of it. It wasn't as frequent. James seems like it was happening all the time. I'm not saying that Wade's is any more justifiable. I still think that even if it happens once its still just as bad, 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, AgentRXS said:

Here's the creepy as fuck photos of Thriller era MJ with Emmanuel Lewis: https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/michael-jackson-emmanuel-lewis-1983-at-least-1993/

OMG! The photos all over that site are creepy as fuck! 

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

But it's also unintentionally revealing as it shows what she (unconsciously?) feels most guilty about: That she pimped out her child for her own gain and precipitated her depressed husband's suicide.  She feels so guilty she makes up this completely incredible absolution story.  Fascinating, if disgusting.

Yes, and iirc, she's also the one who says that the father really started deteriorating "after Shane left." I could be remembering it wrong that she was the one who said that but if so it's suspicious that from halfway around the world she can link her adult son leaving the country to her ex taking a turn for the worst but doesn't say anything about her own departure with his kids. Shane describes his father as behaving very similarly on both occasions, saying he was there but not there when saying good-bye, like he was in shock.

I thought it was funny that Chantal said she was worried about her mother committing suicide when she learned the truth. I don't blame her since her father had done that, but that was clearly never something to fear.

37 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Wade’s career came out of his god given talent and hard work. Yes the right people saw him at the right time, but MJ didn’t make his career- even if he had, that was the least he could do after abusing him for years. Wade deserves all his success, but that doesn’t make up for what happened to him. 

Yup, absolutely. I feel like Wade was probably lucky that Jackson had found a replacement by the time he got to LA so he wasn't as completely dominated 24/7 like James was. His asking to teach a class at the dance studio, starting by being a sub, and then becoming so popular had nothing I could see to do with Michael. Something we probably just didn't see so much in the documentary was how much time he must have been spending in dance class. It seems like that and the work he got from it (on his own) was something that gave him the kind of education MJ falsely claimed James was getting by encouraging him to quit school while financing the short movies he made at the ranch, which was a totally different thing.

[ruby24]

7 hours ago, ellenr33 said:

I think James seemed more broken because his abuse happened more often. I think Wade's went on longer in his life but from the sounds of it. It wasn't as frequent. James seems like it was happening all the time. I'm not saying that Wade's is any more justifiable. I still think that even if it happens once its still just as bad, 

Yeah. I think this is true, because he was on tour with him for all those months during the Bad tour. And from the sounds of it, MJ really put a lot of work into grooming him, it was a whole year before the abuse started happening. I think he was only his second victim. When it finally started he had him completely reeled in, and then to have a mock wedding with him? God. He really made him think they were like a couple, you can tell by the way he described it. I felt so awful for him, because you could see how much this whole thing still sits with him. And he said he feels like this is a wound that time only makes worse. I really hope he reconsiders therapy.

I think with Wade, yeah, it wasn't as frequent, because by the time they moved to Los Angeles, Macaulay Culkin was around, so it seems to me like after MJ had Neverland he started having a lot more boys at the same time. But he kept Wade there for contact several times a year, wasn't it?

 

8 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

Here's the creepy as fuck photos of Thriller era MJ with Emmanuel Lewis: https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/michael-jackson-emmanuel-lewis-1983-at-least-1993/

This site is where you can see all those pictures of him and Jonathan Spence, the boy who was right before Jimmy. And he was the one the cops found a nude picture of when they raided Neverland, from when he was seven years old. So like twenty years later he still had this picture.

Emmanuel Lewis could have been his first victim, but I think Jonathan Spence for sure had to be. I mean, he was exactly the type he seemed to go for later, and the fact that he went to school with his cousin and came over to the house all the time. Slept in MJ's room twice a week. There's no doubt in my mind. 

And this is also why I think his family members (some of them, definitely his mother) HAD to know about him. They were there when he started behaving like this, they witnessed it. They all turned a blind eye to it.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

ironic editing we got her upset about Wade's wife not wanting her in the house and Wade himself saying he felt no feelings for her, claiming that she'd never had this sort of thing happen before because she always had such good relationships with her family etc.

I believe her when she says she didn't know Michael was molesting Wade, for several reasons. But I also believe that there were some serious problems between her and her family, based on Wade's shocking statement that he had no feelings for her (one of the worst things a mother could ever hear) and her other son's feelings of abandonment and anger at her. If, in the end, Michael hadn't molested Wade, but had still brought him to America and made him famous, I think the family would still have ended up fractured and estranged. 

That said, it doesn't seem fair to put such a gigantic burden of guilt on the mothers, while giving the fathers a free pass. It was a very, very complicated situation. Lots and lots of people bear responsibility for the eventual disaster that resulted, one that continues to this day. Everybody is suffering,including the mothers. 

Speaking of which, we can come up with various reasons Wade seems to be handling things better than James at the moment, but we also have to remember that genetics play a huge part too. Wade and James are two completely different and unique people. Some people just handle trauma better than others, because of their inborn traits and personality. I see it all the time. One person sails through life despite trauma, while another is completely crushed by it. People are so complicated and unpredictable. (Which is why I love good reality TV.) 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Melina22

[car54]

I think it is telling that both men opened up to what happened after becoming fathers themselves.

My guess is that feeling that powerful love of a child made them face what happened to them and how their parents failed to protect them.   I think both of them want to do better by their children.

Also, I looked at Wade's IMDB and unless I'm reading it incorrectly he has no recent work as a choreographer or dancer.      My impression was that one of the reasons he tried to auction off some of his memorabilia was to help pay for the expenses he had.      I have a feeling that while some people in the business may pay lip service to "believing the victims", that it will be hard for him to get that sort of job working for someone else again.    Too much baggage.

[Penman61]

To blame, in order of importance:

1. Michael Jackson
2. Michael Jackson
3. Michael Jackson
4. Michael Jackson
5. Michael Jackson
6. Michael Jackson
7. Michael Jackson
8. Michael Jackson...

3,262. The parents present

Never:  The victims

[ruby24]

I'm disappointed on the level of celebrity silence on this, especially after a lot of the vocal reaction to the R Kelly documentary. It really infuriates me that some of the same people who could condemn Kelly would be silent on this one. Why? Is it because MJ's just too big or is it because of who the victims are? 

These men need as much support as they can get. MJ can't face justice anymore, but his victims can be listened to and believed, for the first time. That needs to happen. 

[blixie]

Ugh I just went down this rabbit hole because I did really wonder when his grooming of young boys started, I thought it had been AFTER Thriller. NOPE NOPE NOPE. Shit it may have started before Off the Wall, since he met Spence when Spence was five which would have been 1978 since he was 10 in 1983, and then there was a photo of an approximately 7 year old nude boy found in Hayvenhurst that looked like Spence. UGH JFC.

I really hope the bravery of Wade/James helps others who were abused by Michael to heal, if not speak their truth publicly. 

[Robert Lynch]

This girl is mentally unstable

Being part of that family can't be good for Paris. I am worried about her.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

I believe her when she says she didn't know Michael was molesting Wade, for several reasons. But I also believe that there were some serious problems between her and her family, based on Wade's shocking statement that he had no feelings for her (one of the worst things a mother could ever hear) and her other son's feelings of abandonment and anger at her. If, in the end, Michael hadn't molested Wade, but had still brought him to America and made him famous, I think the family would still have ended up fractured and estranged. 

29 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Agreed. That's what surprised me about what she said, because there was already a huge blow to the family that had caused a lot of hurt and far-reaching effects. 

29 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

That said, it doesn't seem fair to put such a gigantic burden of guilt on the mothers, while giving the fathers a free pass. It was a very, very complicated situation. Lots and lots of people bear responsibility for the eventual disaster that resulted, one that continues to this day. Everybody is suffering,including the mothers. 

Yes, it does seem like the fathers are getting a pass where they shouldn't. I get it with Wade's father--I think he was there when they left Michael and Wade alone at Neverland that first time so he's completely at fault for that. Afterwards there was some point where he seemed too ill to care for his kid properly on any level and he'd already lost him. So I get people not thinking about him as much.

But it seems like James' father was just as much if not more on board with what was going on with him and didn't come out and own his behavior in a documentary like the mom did, so he seems worse than she does there. James said in the interview that he hadn't forgiven his mother yet and wouldn't say he had until it was real, so I get the impression that so far she's willing to do what she needs to do to have a relationship with him now, which in the end will probably be good for him too. Joy doesn't yet seem ready to face some of things she'll need to face to get that. But she could change in the future.

29 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Speaking of which, we can come up with various reasons Wade seems to be handling things better than James at the moment, but we also have to remember that genetics play a huge part too. Wade and James are two completely different and unique people. Some people just handle trauma better than others, because of their inborn traits and personality. I see it all the time. One person sails through life despite trauma, while another is completely crushed by it. People are so complicated and unpredictable. (Which is why I love good reality TV.) 

Yeah, there's so many factors there it's probably impossible to stick with just one. Another one, too, could be his siblings who seem to have his back. There were just a lot more family members in Wade's side of the story giving him support. 

[kicotan]

48 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

That said, it doesn't seem fair to put such a gigantic burden of guilt on the mothers, while giving the fathers a free pass.

I respectfully disagree.

The  fathers certainly don’t get a free pass, however, I’m inclined to put a larger burden of guilt on the person who’s job/responsibility it was to care for/protect the child whilst the other person is off at their $$$ making job so that the family is provided for.  The fathers should have never signed off on any of the arrangements the mothers had with MJ, but then again, we don’t live in a world where wives submit to their husband’s ultimate authority anymore, so the blame game shifts.

If either father was the stay-at-home Parent while Mom went off to work every day then I’d be moved to see it differently.  Both Wade and James’ mothers behaved as “managing their son’s career” stage mom/housewives who were as enamored  with MJ as their sons were, maybe even more so.  And they phenomenally sucked at it ~ in spite of the “perks” they enjoyed.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

You could very well be right, I don’t recall how the witnesses at the trial looked. 

The public didn't get to see the trial, but I remember a journalist who covered the trial writing in Slate that while the defense did a marvelous job defending MJ, he still found it impossible to forget how creepily similar all of MJ's "friends" looked. (Except for Macaulay.)

Apparently it was very difficult to even tell some of the young men apart.

[Penman61]

19 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

The public didn't get to see the trial, but I remember a journalist who covered the trial writing in Slate that while the defense did a marvelous job defending MJ, he still found it impossible to forget how creepily similar all of MJ's "friends" looked. (Except for Macaulay.)

Apparently it was very difficult to even tell some of the young men apart.

The OBVIOUS tell (retrospectively of course) was the absence of any girls in Michael's close circle of special children.  Girls are, I hear, half of the child population. WEIRD THAT NONE WERE PRESENT AMONG MICHAEL'S CHOSEN CHILDREN, NO?

[Melina22]

39 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

Being part of that family can't be good for Paris. I am worried about her.

I opened that link with great trepidation because honestly, everything I see about Paris makes me feel like crying. I suspect it's partly because of her little face at the funeral. She looked so innocent and so much like a little girl in my family who is close to my heart. Yet obviously, her brothers are suffering as well. 

I just remember the sinking feeling I got in my stomach after her first suicide attempt, then reports of her drug use. For someone who loved children so much, MJ has certainly managed to destroy a remarkable number of them. 

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, kicotan said:

The  fathers certainly don’t get a free pass, however, I’m inclined to put a larger burden of guilt on the person who’s job/responsibility it was to care for/protect the child whilst the other person is off at their $$$ making job so that the family is provided for.  The fathers should have never signed off on any of the arrangements the mothers had with MJ, but then again, we don’t live in a world where wives submit to their husband’s ultimate authority anymore, so the blame game shifts.

But a lot of this stuff doesn't just come down to being the primary caregiver. In some cases yes, it does--like when Joy was the person staying with Wade at Neverland, she's the one looking after him. Or when Stephanie is the one at home with Michael and James etc. In the US Joy was Wade's only parent so was 100% responsible for him.

But iirc James's dad was in those presidential suites too, the ones getting farther and farther away from where his son was sleeping with Michael with his dad's full knowledge. He would have had a say in whether he went on tour, whether he stayed in school. 

In Wade's case it seems like his dad probably didn't have the ability to control much in his life by the time Joy took the kids to the US, but he seemed to be the only one of the two dads that was putting up any objection. All authority James's father had was going to support Michael Jackson, it seemed, despite having the exact same information about him that his wife had. (I actually don't think either mother being the one with the job would have shielded her from blame, even if her husband was a stay-at-home dad. It's just automatic to expect that from the mom.)

[ruby24]

59 minutes ago, blixie said:

Ugh I just went down this rabbit hole because I did really wonder when his grooming of young boys started, I thought it had been AFTER Thriller. NOPE NOPE NOPE. Shit it may have started before Off the Wall, since he met Spence when Spence was five which would have been 1978 since he was 10 in 1983, and then there was a photo of an approximately 7 year old nude boy found in Hayvenhurst that looked like Spence. UGH JFC.

So yeah, Spence had to be the first. I can see no other reason for him to have kept that photo for over twenty years. That would make it about 1980-81 probably, when MJ was about 23 I guess? Damn. Another thing that hits me was Latoya's description of their mother calling him a f*****- she probably believed that gay men are pedophiles and that's just what they do. So many people thought stuff like that for so long.

I noticed that with both Jimmy and Wade they said the last sexual experiences with him were attempts at anal sex that didn't work, but that he tried that because they were older. But then he moves on to a presumably younger boy, I assume, because he didn't seem to have any interest in adult men. I wonder if he tried to see which boys would be open to a change in sex style at that point to keep them around longer (like Brett Barnes, who claimed to have slept in his bed until he was 19, and Omer Bhatti, who he had around into his 20's). 

[Growsonwalls]

I wouldn't assume that Wade is less damaged than James. I think both seemed extremely damaged in the documentary. Wade did seem more articulate than James in the Oprah interview but Wade works in show business. Actually he doesn't just work in show business -- he's a decent name in show business. He might be more accustomed to speaking in front of crowds, and preparing for interviews. James sounded less articulate in front of the large audience and Oprah. 

When Wade and his siblings and wife speak about the family dynamics with the mother right now, I think it's clear that the pain MJ caused will never go away. 

My heart hurts for Paris, Prince and Blanket. They too were completely isolated and shielded as children. After MJ's death the Jackson clan swooped in, claimed custody, and kept them under further isolation. Even now they're speaking for them, as if all of them were still little children. I wonder if LaToya or Janet (who seem more grounded) have any part of MJ;s childrens' lives. I kind of doubt it.

[blixie]

Quote

(I actually don't think either mother being the one with the job would have shielded her from blame, even if her husband was a stay-at-home dad. It's just automatic to expect that from the mom.)

I agree, also, I don't remember any place in the documentary that said either woman didn't have a job (but it was a hard watch I certainly could have missed it).  Stephanie was a hairstylist and then seemingly became James Momager, when he started getting commercials, which STILL doesn't make her a stay at home mom living of her garbage man husband's hard work. 

[DangerousMinds]

I think the fathers have just as much responsibility for what happened as the mothers. They don’t get a pass because they worked.

[spaceghostess]

I put more responsibility on whichever parent (mother or father) spent the most time looking after the child in the presence of Jackson and who made decisions such as bringing the child to his home to sleep with him at 1:30 a.m. If that was a joint parental decision, then both parents are responsible for it.  I had the impression that both Safechuck parents went along when James was touring with Jackson and they are therefore both to blame for allowing their son to sleep in the man's room instead of in the family suite, which, of course, is where their child should have been. I guess I'd hold Robson's dad more responsible if he hadn't clearly had some pretty serious mental issues that seem to have undermined his ability to parent effectively. Safechuck's father is shady as hell, as far as I'm concerned, for not appearing in the doc and letting his wife take all the heat.

Edited March 8, 2019 by spaceghostess

[Mdoc]

I don't think I'll ever be able to get adult James out of my head. I've never seen a grown man like that. It was like a scared little boy in a man's body. Scared, shameful, just so many things in those eyes. How anyone can question that I'll never believe. Watch the Oprah interview with the sound off and just LOOK at him. It's destroyed me a little bit. I never knew I could feel protective over someone I've never met before... 

[Robert Lynch]

Now Corey Feldman is changing his tune

[dcubed]

9 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

Here's the creepy as fuck photos of Thriller era MJ with Emmanuel Lewis: https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/michael-jackson-emmanuel-lewis-1983-at-least-1993/

Want another creepy as f picture...this is one of his nephews, supposedly for an album.  Michael encouraged him to dress/not dress this way.  The nephew was 17.  You can see his pubic hair.  WTF????

[Quilt Fairy]

6 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

My heart hurts for Paris, Prince and Blanket. They too were completely isolated and shielded as children.

All I remember is that he always made them wear masks out in public, which was creepy as hell.  Growing up with that guy as their only parent must have really f*cked them up. 

And is the youngest's name really Blanket?  I thought that was just a pet name.  Who the hell names their kid Blanket?

[doodlebug]

11 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

All I remember is that he always made them wear masks out in public, which was creepy as hell.  Growing up with that guy as their only parent must have really f*cked them up. 

And is the youngest's name really Blanket?  I thought that was just a pet name.  Who the hell names their kid Blanket?

Blanket is his nickname, given mainly because MJ named all of his kids after himself.  His oldest child, known as Prince, is actually Michael Joseph Prince Jackson, Jr.  Paris' actual first name is Paris-Michael.  The infamous Blanket's given name is Prince Michael Jackson II.   MJ  apparently considered himself to be Prince Michael Jackson I.

I'm not sure how he got the name Blanket, but he was the infant that MJ infamously dangled over a balcony for the press after placing a baby blanket over the kid's head.

Edited March 8, 2019 by doodlebug

[Robert Lynch]

It’s funny that we hear MJ’s brothers a lot. They love that publicity. Maybe that’s the reason Rebbie left and married early. Janet is definitely more grounded.

I think Katherine now is really elderly at this point and I remember Paris posted an Instagram photo of her last year. She appeared wheelchair bound. And she looked like she lost a lot of weight. 

[doodlebug]

14 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

It’s funny that we hear MJ’s brothers a lot. They love that publicity. Maybe that’s the reason Rebbie left and married early. Janet is definitely more grounded.

I think Katherine now is really elderly at this point and I remember Paris posted an Instagram photo of her last year. She appeared wheelchair bound. And she looked like she lost a lot of weight. 

Katherine is 88 and her health is not good,  She isn't seen very often, but, when she is, she is using a wheelchair. I think the photo posted by Paris was the first time she'd been photographed in public since Joe's funeral.  I don't think she has spoken in public or issued a statement under her own name in years which seems to indicate that she perhaps is not able to do those things anymore.

[Scarlett45]

31 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

It’s funny that we hear MJ’s brothers a lot. They love that publicity. Maybe that’s the reason Rebbie left and married early. Janet is definitely more grounded.

I think Katherine now is really elderly at this point and I remember Paris posted an Instagram photo of her last year. She appeared wheelchair bound. And she looked like she lost a lot of weight. 

Rebbie was the eldest, and Likely had a lot of domestic duties in that large family. Latoya said both she and Rebbie were sexually assaulted by their father (I believe Latoya) but she didn’t know if Janet had been. I think Janet may have been sparred due to circumstance- as the baby she was with Katherine a lot while Joe was taking the boys on tour, and by the time she started school they were living in LA. Janet is talented in her own right but she also had a very different upbringing than her older siblings. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

On the reasoning behind "Blanket":  

BASHIR: “Why do you call him Blanket?”

MICHAEL: “Cause, um, it’s an expression I use with my family and my employees. I say: ‘You should blanket me, I mean, you should blanket her' with something, meaning, like a…it’s a way of showing love and caring.”

I watched that special (Living with Michael Jackson, from 2003) this morning. I had never seen it in whole, and there is more than one upload of it on YouTube. I picked the one with the longest running time, because I didn't want to see a fan-edit, but I think it was just longer because some of the commercials had not been edited out.  

I can see why people still watch and talk about that show when all of the puff-piece interviews have been forgotten. Bashir earned a lifetime top spot on the fans' enemies list, and some of Jackson's celebrity peers, such as Madonna, accused him of betrayal. But Bashir was given unprecedented access and time, and he delved into the uncomfortable topics people actually were talking and wondering about. Some of Jackson's prior interviewers (Diane Sawyer, Barbara Walters) may have been good journalists, but they did not do their best work when they talked to him. Bashir asks followup questions, and when Jackson digs in on an answer that does not seem satisfactory or truthful, Bashir does not hide his skepticism. It's a full and compelling portrait of Jackson about six or seven years before his death. And maybe it's another case of what I now know influencing the way I see something, but he sounds mildly sedated a lot of the time. His speech and affect differ from one interview to another. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Simon Boccanegra

[Neko]

I thought the Bashir interview was great.  He was the only interviewer I had seen who didn't coddle Michael.  Everyone else just wanted to kiss the ass of the biggest superstar in the world, but Bashir asked real questions.  It's still a fascinating and disturbing watch, 16 years later.

That's a lovely photo of MJ with his nephew, BTW.  Nothing weird about posing with your nephew's bush, peeking out.  Nope, nothing weird, at all.