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S03.E11: The Book of Dougs


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When Eleanor was reacting to Chidi dressed as a mailman, all I could think of was Kristen Bell meeting a sloth.

(For those who don't know:

)

Edited by Ikki
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I recognized Nicole Byer's voice when she first spoke from the other room. Nailed it!

I like that Michael made some real progress tonight. Tahani being selfless was sweet. Jameela was great in this episode. I liked the idea of Eleanor and Chidi as a couple, but seeing them as an actual couple is freaking me out.

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Well that was a pretty brilliant explanation that fits the evidence perfectly. Really well done by Mike Schur and the writers. (I do think it implies the world is getting worse, which I'm certain is not true, but I'll look past that.) Also a very creative way to have them in The Good Place but also not.

Funny to see the Good representatives filling all the stereotypes: overly nice, overly trusting, overly rule-bound, etc.

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18 minutes ago, Linny said:

I feel like I have to tread carefully when it comes to Michael's experience with the committee, as there were A LOT of overt references to the current state of American politics,

OMG, even the diversity of the committee was like "THIS IS OUR VISUAL FOR DEMOCRATS" and they were following the rules and taking too long. I did not make this connection to politics outside of the refugee comparison Jason made. 

Wow, must rewatch now that I realize that political subtlety. Also, I was curious why the only black guy on the committee had to do the hardest work and then ended up having to quit. Almost like he was the punching bag... the "Jerry Gergich" of the committee you could say.

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1 hour ago, Amarsir said:

Well that was a pretty brilliant explanation that fits the evidence perfectly. Really well done by Mike Schur and the writers. (I do think it implies the world is getting worse, which I'm certain is not true, but I'll look past that.) Also a very creative way to have them in The Good Place but also not.

Funny to see the Good representatives filling all the stereotypes: overly nice, overly trusting, overly rule-bound, etc.

 

30 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Brooklyn 99 AND The Good Place in one night! This is my Good Place!

Love the explanation for why no one gets into The Good Place, its more or less what I've expected for awhile. The rules are so arbitrary and so black and white, and people can lose points because of things they have no control over (which is especially hard in such a globalized, interconnected world) but have unintended consequences that are negative. Some of the points even seem to be things that people have no control over at all, like being from Florida. Its not the Bad Place thats messing up the system, its the system itself that is messed up. 

This show is like a really funny and charming term paper on moral relativity. "Hmmmm smells like pretzels. No wait, its total moral certainty! Those smell alike, a lot of people dont know that." 

Michael is making some real moves now, I am so excited to see what happens next!

Agreed. I loved that the problem related to the complexity and interconnectedness of modern life. Each action has a lot more effect downstream and upstream. 

 

I am not a huge shipper but Eleanor and Chidi worked for me tonight and I think it is because they complimented one another. 

Speaking of compliments, I am going to need someone to compliment me next time I am waiting on a Board.

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1 hour ago, possibilities said:

This show is smarter than I am, and I love it.

I was surprised and disappointed to find Chidi and Eleanor boring this week.

But I loved everything else.

Not sure if typo or not....

I was waiting for Nicole Byers to order everyone to make a cake pop in the shape of an Angel or something.

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The Good Place is back, baby!  Fork yeah!

So, it certainly looks like that it isn't actually the demons/Bad Place that are causing these issues, but that it is actually the Good Place themselves, as their point system is dated and doesn't seem to adapt well to changes and dealing with the grey that goes with being human in this more modern world.  And, of course, the Good Place folks themselves are just soo rigidly thorough and stick to the rules to the letter that nothing gets done, because it takes so long for them to actually make decisions.  Yep, that checks out!  Loved how everyone was so overtly nice and trusting, and Michael's annoyance because of it was priceless!

The show continues to not drag things out, and they have Jason already confess to Janet that he knows about her feelings.  Curious to see where this goes.  Loved Tahani trying to be nice and even declaring her marriage to Jason null and void since they're dead.  Hee!

Janet pretending to be Neutral Janet was great.  D'Arcy Carden is the best, which is putting it mildly.

Eleanor and Chidi actually seemed to have the smaller storyline here, but it was nice seeing Chidi help Eleanor get over some of her insecurities and fears.

Sure enough, Michael has a plan now and it involves meeting the Judge at the IHOP.  Never change, The Good Place!  Never change.

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58 minutes ago, The Companion said:

 

Agreed. I loved that the problem related to the complexity and interconnectedness of modern life. Each action has a lot more effect downstream and upstream. 

 

I am not a huge shipper but Eleanor and Chidi worked for me tonight and I think it is because they complimented one another. 

Speaking of compliments, I am going to need someone to compliment me next time I am waiting on a Board.

Your explanation of their chemistry is very apt.

That was a good segue.

The name "The Companion" conveys reassurance, despite more likely being a reference to something I don't get.

Your sentences are the perfect length for expressing ideas.

Spelling "complement" as "compliment" allows it to double as wordplay.

Appreciating both sci-fi and reality shows indicates you are both a realist and a dreamer.

Nice use of the word "shipper".

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Wow, this show does manage to get a lot stuffed into under 22 minutes. Even with only two episodes left in the season I think there could still be two or three complete flips of the status quo for the season finale.

Glad we're finally going to see the Inter-dimensional Hole of Pancakes ("you don't really eat these pancakes, it's more like they eat you").

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1 hour ago, Fukui San said:

Not sure if typo or not....

I was waiting for Nicole Byers to order everyone to make a cake pop in the shape of an Angel or something.

Not a typo. I was bored by them. Am I missing something?

 

I will say that if everything smells like your favorite thing, that would make it easier to not be bothered by sweaty pits.

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3 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

OMG, even the diversity of the committee was like "THIS IS OUR VISUAL FOR DEMOCRATS" and they were following the rules and taking too long. I did not make this connection to politics outside of the refugee comparison Jason made. 

Wow, must rewatch now that I realize that political subtlety. Also, I was curious why the only black guy on the committee had to do the hardest work and then ended up having to quit. Almost like he was the punching bag... the "Jerry Gergich" of the committee you could say.

I also took it as reflecting Mueller taking so long, for those reasons. I definitely caught the analogy while watching.

Also, I could be wrong, but didn't the window on the door to the Good Place have the same design as the door window on Cheers? I really hope it did, that'd be a wonderful detail!

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7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Eleanor and Chidi actually seemed to have the smaller storyline here, but it was nice seeing Chidi help Eleanor get over some of her insecurities and fears.

When Chidi said it smelled like absolute moral truth, I wondered if that would also resolve his indecisiveness, since he would always be feeling that sense of moral truth.  And I think it did help him.  I wonder if it will last beyond the Good Place.

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Actually thought this was one of the weaker episodes. I had some laughs but wasn't as joyful as the last few had been before the break. In terms of plot, there wasn't much there. The good place being a bureaucratic mess isn't that surprising. This episode was very couples focused and I enjoy it more when Michael interacts with the whole group.

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2 hours ago, oldCJ said:

I find it interesting that Chidi went to the bad place because he could never make a decision. However, his indecisiveness was a result of considering all the repercussions of his choices, like the blueberry muffin. Yet not considering repercussions of your choices is what is sending everyone to the bad place? Ahhhhh!!!!!

 

I don't think you not considering repercussions is what is sending you to the bad place. I think the system attaching indirect negatives to your action is.

The logic didn't really work for me. In Michael's example, modern Doug went to the bad place because by picking flowers, he was indirectly contributing to child labor and other bad things. But what about the indirect positive results of his actions? The person receiving the flowers feels better, so then pays it forward to someone else, etc?

We know Mindy St Claire is in the Medium place because of that exact reason. She was "bad" her whole life but her last action, which was really just an idea, ended up helping lots of people.

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10 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

OMG, even the diversity of the committee was like "THIS IS OUR VISUAL FOR DEMOCRATS" and they were following the rules and taking too long. I did not make this connection to politics outside of the refugee comparison Jason made. 

Wow, must rewatch now that I realize that political subtlety. Also, I was curious why the only black guy on the committee had to do the hardest work and then ended up having to quit. Almost like he was the punching bag... the "Jerry Gergich" of the committee you could say.

I also noticed quickly that the white folks seemed to be in charge of the committee, very sly, Good Place!

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I don’t think people are worse I think life has gotten more complicated and the world has gotten smaller.  Doug #1 picked flowers from his own garden and walked them to his mother in large part because their weren’t too many other options.  Doug #2 still gets his mom flowers but he has the internet so instead of growing them in a garden which he probably doesn’t even have he buys them over the Internet and ships th to mom.  A simple act.....has unintended and unfair consequences that most likely shouldn’t be all put on him.  Maybe a few points for not really thinking about mom all that much and a few more fir not thinking about consequences but Doug #2 shouldn’t be racking up thousands of bad points.

I adored that Chidi tried to make Eleanor feel better by dressing up like a mailman.  

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I love this show, but I hate the fast tracking of relationships. Tahani and Jason has known Janet for a matter of weeks. Why would Tahani LOVE Janet? Jason's very sweet to want to talk to Janet about it, but I can't buy that he's in love with this non-human he just met, if that's the direction this goes in.

Chidi just got out of a long-term relationship with Simone, yet he's already 175% and working his swag when it comes to Eleanor? Although I did love how concerned Chidi was about Eleanor, and how he took such care of her, considering likely no one ever has in her life.

My other immediate thought is Jason in season 1 is miles smarter than season 3 Jason. The verbal tic he has has to go, unless we learn Jason suffered some sort of brain injury in Australia. When he came in and started bawling because he wanted to feel like part of the conversation between Tahani and Jason, he looked more like a child and less like a grown man in a love triangle.

Edited by jmonique
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10 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Your explanation of their chemistry is very apt.

That was a good segue.

The name "The Companion" conveys reassurance, despite more likely being a reference to something I don't get.

Your sentences are the perfect length for expressing ideas.

Spelling "complement" as "compliment" allows it to double as wordplay.

Appreciating both sci-fi and reality shows indicates you are both a realist and a dreamer.

Nice use of the word "shipper".

This is amazing. Also, the name is a reference to Doctor Who, if you were wondering. I don't want to be the Doctor, but I wouldn't mind it if he/she showed up with the TARDIS and I could be a companion for awhile. 

 

The only think I feel like we missed out on was by not even getting a glimpse of the Good Place, we have no idea whether there are delightful puns. If not, I object to calling it the Good Place.

 

I did like the fact that they flipped the hell is other people concept. For Chidi and Eleanor, each other was good or at least good enough. 

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3 hours ago, Samsnee said:

I don't think you not considering repercussions is what is sending you to the bad place. I think the system attaching indirect negatives to your action is.

The logic didn't really work for me. In Michael's example, modern Doug went to the bad place because by picking flowers, he was indirectly contributing to child labor and other bad things. But what about the indirect positive results of his actions? The person receiving the flowers feels better, so then pays it forward to someone else, etc?

We know Mindy St Claire is in the Medium place because of that exact reason. She was "bad" her whole life but her last action, which was really just an idea, ended up helping lots of people.

Unless the indirect result of the flower giving had the recipient helping a whole lot of people then the good (one person feels better) is outweighed by the bad (pollution, pesticides, child labor, etc.).  That's the point - the system is flawed because in today's world everything is so interconnected that multiple people had to suffer somewhere along the way.  You saved someone's life?  Congratulations, but now that person will live to consume products that were likely harvested/constructed/transported via negative means somewhere along the way.  It's also probable that said person isn't a saint, so their negative actions are on indirectly on you.

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13 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Well that was a pretty brilliant explanation that fits the evidence perfectly. Really well done by Mike Schur and the writers. (I do think it implies the world is getting worse, which I'm certain is not true, but I'll look past that.) Also a very creative way to have them in The Good Place but also not.

Funny to see the Good representatives filling all the stereotypes: overly nice, overly trusting, overly rule-bound, etc.

I don't think it necessarily means the world is getting worse. 

It more the world is now global and interconnected in such a "butterfly effect" way that every choice has a myriad of consequences that are unpredictable and unavoidable. 

1 hour ago, RainbowBrite said:

I still absolutely love this show but I don't see the chemistry between Chidi and Eleanor. I am also not invested in the "triangle" between Tahani, Janet and Jason. I adored Nicole Byers' character, whose G-name is escaping me.

Yeah I don't see the Chidi/Eleanor chemistry either, have to overlook that. 

And in truth I don't care all that much if they end up together or not. 

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14 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Well that was a pretty brilliant explanation that fits the evidence perfectly. Really well done by Mike Schur and the writers. (I do think it implies the world is getting worse, which I'm certain is not true, but I'll look past that.) 

I don’t think it’s saying that the world is getting worse. It’s saying that the world is getting worse if you boil it down to a math equation which attempts to take into account every single action and consequence and assign a number to them. This episode is a criticism of utilitarian moral theory.

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I loved Chidi and Eleanor. I like their chemistry, I liked the pacing, I liked his ability to be calm when she freaked out, I liked their respective “how am I in love with you in light of your particular brand of crazy” moments. Setting aside the show as whole for a second, I was a happy shipper.

 

(The show as a whole was good too, and certainly not dependent on shipping. But I’ll take the ship!)

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Quote

I find it interesting that Chidi went to the bad place because he could never make a decision. However, his indecisiveness was a result of considering all the repercussions of his choices, like the blueberry muffin. Yet not considering repercussions of your choices is what is sending everyone to the bad place? Ahhhhh!!!!!

I don't think it's that people aren't considering the repercussions. I don't think the Doug who bought flowers and inadvertently hurt people down the line was aware of those repercussions. There isn't really a way to be aware of those downstream implications without extensive research. And I thought that was kind of the point.  The world is just so complicated now you can never know what the butterfly effect is going to be of even the most innocuous things you do.

Chidi was indecisive to an extent that he annoyed the crap out of everyone so that's kind of a different issue.

If nobody has gotten into the Good Place in over 500 years why are all the inhabitants wearing modern clothing?

My favorite scene was Michael getting info about the telephone from Gwendolyn. She was just so damn cheery and trusting and he was just so obvious. The exaggerated cheerfulness of the committee was funny too.

The season started off really slow but I've really enjoyed the past couple of episodes.

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Chidi's delayed reactions to Elinor's crazier thoughts will never get old. WJH is brilliant.

D'Arcy Carden is still playing multiple roles. This time Good Place Janet and Good Place Janet acting like Neutral Place Janet. If she keeps this up, Tatiana Maslany better watch her back.

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11 hours ago, Mibbitmaker said:

I also took it as reflecting Mueller taking so long, for those reasons. I definitely caught the analogy while watching.

Also, I could be wrong, but didn't the window on the door to the Good Place have the same design as the door window on Cheers? I really hope it did, that'd be a wonderful detail!

I'm not sure about this one. I interpreted the committee-to-form-a-committee-to-write-a-strongly-worded-letter actions more as a criticism of NATO and the UN than democrats.

15 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

OMG, even the diversity of the committee was like "THIS IS OUR VISUAL FOR DEMOCRATS" and they were following the rules and taking too long. I did not make this connection to politics outside of the refugee comparison Jason made. 

Wow, must rewatch now that I realize that political subtlety. Also, I was curious why the only black guy on the committee had to do the hardest work and then ended up having to quit. Almost like he was the punching bag... the "Jerry Gergich" of the committee you could say.

Why wouldn't The Good Place embrace diversity? Isn't that supposed to be a good thing? I'm not sure how that's a dig against democrats. I see that more akin to embracing humanity which fits with the NATO/UN analogy about the committee's actions.

Highlights of the Episode for Me

  • I tried watching Nailed It!, but I thought Nicole Byer's personality was obnoxious. However, her shtick completely works in this episode because it matches the universe.
  • Tahani was completely selfless and supportive in this episode; she's come such a long way and has become a good, likable person.
  • When Chidi was calming Eleanor's anxiety, he was completely calm, rational, and supportive in the process. In the past, another person's anxiety would have amplified Chidi's, but instead it had the opposite effect and was so cute! 

AV Club has an article on each episode's sight gags. Here's the one for this episode: https://tv.avclub.com/the-good-place-annotated-the-book-of-dougs-1831656762

There isn't much for them to review in this one, but sometimes they catch things that I missed during live viewing even if there's not much content.

Edited by Catfi9ht
fleshed out a couple more thoughts
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6 hours ago, Samsnee said:

I don't think you not considering repercussions is what is sending you to the bad place. I think the system attaching indirect negatives to your action is.

The logic didn't really work for me. In Michael's example, modern Doug went to the bad place because by picking flowers, he was indirectly contributing to child labor and other bad things. But what about the indirect positive results of his actions? The person receiving the flowers feels better, so then pays it forward to someone else, etc?

 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t think people are worse I think life has gotten more complicated and the world has gotten smaller.  

 

2 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I don't think it necessarily means the world is getting worse. 

It more the world is now global and interconnected in such a "butterfly effect" way that every choice has a myriad of consequences that are unpredictable and unavoidable. 

 

1 hour ago, Xantar said:

I don’t think it’s saying that the world is getting worse. It’s saying that the world is getting worse if you boil it down to a math equation which attempts to take into account every single action and consequence and assign a number to them. This episode is a criticism of utilitarian moral theory.

Ok well then I’ll dive in. It wasn’t the surface statement I was talking about. It’s the derivative that it implies.

Yes, they are saying that the world is more complicated and therefore every act has more repercussions. However, repercussions are both good and bad. If most interactions are good then point totals would have gotten higher the more interaction we have. But they are saying point totals are lower as a result. Therfore it must be true that negatives are outweighing positives on the whole.

(Either that or negative repercussions count and positive ones don’t, but that would be a much more obvious flaw and therefore probably not the path they’ll choose. It also conflicts wih Mindy.)

The math 2000 years ago may say 175 points for giving flowers to your mother. But now all the people involved in providing them got paid - not just a CEO who is bad because Writers’ Hand. And all the people they spent money on. And on the other end everyone who saw the flowers was probably cheered a little, not just the recipient. Which on average is more viewers as the world gets more populated. And the specialization created by division of labor allows for better flowers to exist and for the giver to have more time to do more things. So many cascading effects.

Which the show says is a net negative. 

So like I said, it’s easier not to think of that. I can just go “rules don’t account for complexity, got it” and move on. 

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Wait a minute.  Didn't IHOP change their name awhile back, albeit only temporarily?  Shouldn't they be heading to Inter-dimensional Hole of Burritos?

On 1/10/2019 at 7:04 PM, Dots And Stripes said:

I liked the idea of Eleanor and Chidi as a couple, but seeing them as an actual couple is freaking me out.

Not to worry.  Upstairs, Chidi reverted to form and spent the entire time worrying about whether it's "in and out" or "out and in".

I want that Postal Service patch.

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16 hours ago, jmonique said:

I love this show, but I hate the fast tracking of relationships. Tahani and Jason has known Janet for a matter of weeks. Why would Tahani LOVE Janet? Jason's very sweet to want to talk to Janet about it, but I can't buy that he's in love with this non-human he just met, if that's the direction this goes in.

I don't think Jason is in love with Janet, just confused over the whole situation and need space to process it. Tahani made a lot of progress on Earth - and there was a lot of time she and Janet spent together off screen.

Wow, I bet Janet and Tahani on a plane would be a fun webisode.

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Each time Eleanor attempted to break through the door I half-expected the Halliwell Sisters of Charmed to pop in and vanquish her. Seriously, that vestibule gave me power of three flashbacks.

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I've found Chidi and Eleanor to have chemistry in the past (like in the episode where we saw flashbacks of them falling in love in The Good Place), but in this one I got no passion from them at all. Aside from Eleanor being turned on by the mailman outfit, they just seemed like good friends who finally got to spend some time together.

While I still find the show to be very funny and clever, I don't think it's operating at the level of seasons 1 or 2. There have been too many episodes where the writers try to milk the same joke out of a premise over and over again, with diminishing results. ("Doug Forsett is a sad sack! The Good Place committee is bureaucratic and useless!")

I find myself thinking, "We get the point, move on already." And that isn't something I ever found myself thinking during the first two seasons.

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19 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

Chidi's delayed reactions to Elinor's crazier thoughts will never get old. WJH is brilliant.

I came to the forum to say just this. William Jackson Harper is so good. His line delivery and facial expressions slay me.

 

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