In The Media: DWTS

[LizDC]

'Dancing With the Stars' season 25 pros revealed: Exclusive full list

Mark, Maks, Val, Keo, Gleb, Artem, Alan. (7)

Witney, Sharna, Peta, Emma, Lindsay. (5)

Edited August 24, 2017 by LizDC

[truthaboutluv]

20 minutes ago, LizDC said:

'Dancing With the Stars' season 25 pros revealed: Exclusive full list

Mark, Maks, Val, Keo, Gleb, Artem, Alan. (7)

Witney, Sharna, Peta, Emma, Lindsay. (5)

Happy to have Mark back.  And good for Alan getting a shot at being a Pro. lol, and of course Peta and Maks are back. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Sd601]

Aww why did Gleb get a spot over Sasha? Boo.

[spanana]

Mark being back is about the only thing that could potentially entice me to watch.  Maybe we will actually see some interesting choreo.  As for Gleb and others over Sasha, I suspect that height comes into play. Sasha needs to be be paired with really tiny female celebs so it only works if there is somebody in the cast that will still be shorter than him when wearing ballroom heels. I'm also not sure how TPTB feel about his last season with Simone.  On paper Simone should have been a lock for the finals, but yet she fell short.  Do TPTB blame him?

Also as an aside, there is still a mystery pro to be named later at the full cast reveal on the 6th.  I assume it will be a female pro since right now there are 7 males and only 5 females.  So speculate away!  Though I'm betting it will be leaked before then.

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, Sd601 said:

Aww why did Gleb get a spot over Sasha? Boo.

Wow, shows how observant I am. Didn't even notice Sasha wasn't there. 

[Toonces464]

53 minutes ago, spanana said:

Also as an aside, there is still a mystery pro to be named later at the full cast reveal on the 6th.  I assume it will be a female pro since right now there are 7 males and only 5 females.  So speculate away!  Though I'm betting it will be leaked before then.

I'll bet it's Cheryl.

[McManda]

I could have done without Gleb, Peta, and Maks ... and I didn't miss Mark when he was gone, so ...

As for the final pro reveal, I'm also thinking it'll be a female, and probably foots in with the "returning pro" bit. My bet is on Cheryl, but Karina maybe. I'll feel misled if it's Jenna.

[Lilac2000]

Probably Cheryl or Karina but since it's the 25th season could Julianne be returning as a pro instead of a judge?

[MsJamieDornan]

Keo,   just NO!

[spanana]

I majorly missed Mark.  He's one of the only people doing remotely interesting choreography.  This is coming from someone who really disliked him and his mugging and spats once upon a time, but ever since he settled down many seasons ago he's been of of my faves.  Plus the way they were gushing all over Mark on GMA this morning as this big returning hero, it gives me hope that maybe TPTB won't be quite as all over Val this season as their only STAR.  Mark also said he knows his partner and it's someone who has been on his wish list for a very long time.  I think it might be someone he knows personally as well.

Maks doesn't bother me as much from a personality standpoint as he used to either, but he can't choreograph and he's halfway checked out.

Pretty sure the missing pro has to be female. My gut is Cheryl.  I wouldn't rule out Jenna or even Allison completely though.  They aren't really surprise worthy and they are both on SYTYCD but maybe they are hoping someone gets kicked off before things really get going.

ETA: Unsurprisingly, news has already broke and it's Cheryl.

http://www.etonline.com/exclusive-cheryl-burke-returning-dancing-stars-shes-really-excited-source-says-85981

Edited August 24, 2017 by spanana

[calipiano81]

3 hours ago, spanana said:

Mark being back is about the only thing that could potentially entice me to watch.  Maybe we will actually see some interesting choreo.  As for Gleb and others over Sasha, I suspect that height comes into play. Sasha needs to be be paired with really tiny female celebs so it only works if there is somebody in the cast that will still be shorter than him when wearing ballroom heels. I'm also not sure how TPTB feel about his last season with Simone.  On paper Simone should have been a lock for the finals, but yet she fell short.  Do TPTB blame him?

I think Sasha did the best he could with Simone. It was the TPTB's manipulation that did them in, and it didn't help that Simone struggled a bit connecting to her dancing.

I am also so stoked about Mark being back! He was my favorite pro for 9 years and the past two seasons weren't the same for me. I am trying to reign in my expectations and not get too excited, though...he left at the top of his game in Season 22 with Paige, and I doubt this season will match it. I am just going to try and enjoy his return for what it is. :)

[vavera4ka]

glad Artem is back! give him young, athletic and hard working star, please

could live without Gleb... how about giving him older respectable woman, see what he can do without his XXX crutch. OMG... imagine Julie Andrews with Gleb (I wouldn't wish her that kind of experience, but it would be funny lol)

Actually I'd love to see Artem with Julie Andrews... the only way I'll be ok with him getting "stuck" with another older lady

Edited August 24, 2017 by vavera4ka

[penbrat]

Yay for Mark.  Funny, I use to not be able to stand him and now he is about the only one, besides Artem, that I find interesting and fun to watch.   Emma and Lindsey are the only female pros on that list that I halfway like.    I still miss Tony and every time I watch Gleb I feel like I need a bath.  He is so sleezy and smarmy.  No thank you for him.

[Palomar]

2 hours ago, spanana said:

 

ETA: Unsurprisingly, news has already broke and it's Cheryl.

http://www.etonline.com/exclusive-cheryl-burke-returning-dancing-stars-shes-really-excited-source-says-85981

Sure hope they give her someone with potential and not someone banned from Trumps administration (hope those rumors are untrue).

[kitcloudkicker]

2 hours ago, spanana said:

Maks doesn't bother me as much from a personality standpoint as he used to either, but he can't choreograph and he's halfway checked out.

What?? You're not excited for more of this choreographic genius? 

[Toonces464]

50 minutes ago, kitcloudkicker said:

What?? You're not excited for more of this choreographic genius? 

What the hell was he thinking with that crap?

[kitcloudkicker]

11 minutes ago, Toonces464 said:

What the hell was he thinking with that crap?

Classic ballroom: American Dryheave (Smooth)

You don't see it much outside the competition circuit.

[spanana]

Not sure if we are counting the pros social media channels as media in the traditional sense, but Val and Sasha are both being shady towards each other by faving comments about the other. Supposedly Sasha liked some comment from a fan on instagram about how if he wants a pro spot he needs to kiss up to be Chmerkovskiy bros these days and blah blah he's too good for that and of course Val's fans made sure he saw it and now Val is faving all sorts of shady things about Sasha.  Maturity across the board.  You would think some of the pros would grow up at some point, but I guess not.

Edited August 25, 2017 by spanana

[babyhouseman]

5 hours ago, Palomar said:

Sure hope they give her someone with potential and not someone banned from Trumps administration (hope those rumors are untrue).

Tom has been implying no to this. Hopefully, it's true. His latest tweet:

 

"The only mooching or spicing this season will be at craft services. @DancingABC"

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Keo,   just NO!

Yes, it's amazing how stubborn this show is when it comes to trying to make Keo happen.  Why couldn't they have tried this hard with Tristan, who (if you ask me) was a much better teacher and choreographer?

Edited August 25, 2017 by legaleagle53

[truthaboutluv]

TMZ reported that Spicer's not interested and that's not happening. 

[Toonces464]

2 hours ago, spanana said:

Not sure if we are counting the pros social media channels as media in the traditional sense, but Val and Sasha are both being shady towards each other by faving comments about the other. Supposedly Sasha liked some comment from a fan on instagram about how if he wants a pro spot he needs to kiss up to be Chmerkovskiy bros these days and blah blah he's too good for that and of course Val's fans made sure he saw it and now Val is faving all sorts of shady things about Sasha.  Maturity across the board.  You would think some of the pros would grow up at some point, but I guess not.

The Cherkovskiys aren't content unless they're in the middle of some junior high school type conflict with another dancer.

[McManda]

14 minutes ago, spanana said:

Also I'm sure the counter argument will be that we get diverse celebs, just not pros, but that is besides the point.

I think the counter argument, at least mine, would be: are there many properly ballroom trained dancers that are also POC? I don't know the answer to that, but it might be hard to diversify your pro cast when the majority of the qualified candidates are eastern European or white Mormons.

I personally don't care what color or ethnicity Keo is, at this point I've yet to see him excel as a teacher or a choreographer and he's gotten several chances. Those are the skills I think you need for this show and there are white pros I feel the same about.

[Dots And Stripes]

58 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Yes, it's amazing how stubborn this show is when it comes to trying to make Keo happen.  Why couldn't they have tried this hard with Tristan, who (if you ask me) was a much better teacher and choreographer?

Didn't they try this hard with Tristan? He had about as Many shots as Keo has had now. I think Keo likes being part of the show more than Tristan did. I never quite figured out if Tristan loved it or hated it but when he left Strictly he pretty much answered that. Personally I'm not a fan of most of the newer pros. 

[spanana]

3 minutes ago, McManda said:

I think the counter argument, at least mine, would be: are there many properly ballroom trained dancers that are also POC? I don't know the answer to that, but it might be hard to diversify your pro cast when the majority of the qualified candidates are eastern European or white Mormons.

I personally don't care what color or ethnicity Keo is, at this point I've yet to see him excel as a teacher or a choreographer and he's gotten several chances. Those are the skills I think you need for this show and there are white pros I feel the same about.

If TPTB were to look, yes there are POC ballroom dancers. TPTB just stay in their little safe bubble of where they look.

Also while you may not care what color Keo is, he's also the only disliked pro that I've seen people tell to go back to his country.  Which says all that needs to be said. People may dislike other dancers and pros, but they aren't treated with the same disdain. Why is that exactly? Witney hasn't done anything of note outside of her season with Alfonso but I don't see anyone trying to send her back to Utah or get her kicked off the show.

Edited August 25, 2017 by spanana

[legaleagle53]

On 8/24/2017 at 8:44 PM, spanana said:

If TPTB were to look, yes there are. I'm not going to pretend that POC ballroom trained pros don't exist throughout the world.  

Absolutely they do.  Japan is a major player in DanceSport, as are Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, and South Africa.

But the show really does need to stop trying to make Keo happen just for the sake of diversity. There are surely much better pros of diverse ethnicity out there.  It's on the show to go find and recruit them.

Edited August 30, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Padma]

Very happy to see Mark will be back. For years I thought it interjected himself too much i just the dances (like I feel Keo does now) then he stopped, and I found he was t he choreographer I most looked forward to every week.  Too bad Len always discourages the kind of dances he does. 

I wish they had more POC, but I just can't get on board with Keo. Not sure how to put it, but he's too dynamic in a way--his movements are so stylized and energetic that it detracts from the dancing. Also, his choreography just isn't as good as many others. (For weaker ones like Alisan and --for sure-- Gleb, I wish they'd just try new people. I really-really- can't stand Gleb's "sexy" take on every dance. It's always so overdone and not erotic, if that's what he's going for. I know he's very good looking but...meh.

Maks v. Peta doesn't seem interesting. I do like Emma and Whitney. Val of course.  I think some old hands will be getting some surprisingly weak pairings. Just a guess.

[kitcloudkicker]

17 hours ago, spanana said:

Mark also said he knows his partner and it's someone who has been on his wish list for a very long time.  I think it might be someone he knows personally as well.

I just hope this doesn't mean BC. I've seen him pitch that in interviews before, and while I like them as a couple, I really don't want to have that ruined by them being on the show together. (No real life couples please)

[spanana]

5 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

I just hope this doesn't mean BC. I've seen him pitch that in interviews before, and while I like them as a couple, I really don't want to have that ruined by them being on the show together. (No real life couples please)

I agree. I like them as a couple but I wouldn't want to see any real life couples in that situation.  I'm assuming Mark's person is also the person that Derek claimed to know and be friends with and it's someone who is somewhat in their circle.

Witney said she's meeting her partner today so things are moving.

The last I'll say on the Keo front is I don't care if people don't think he's a great pro.  My thing with him is he should have been started in the troupe instead of throwing him directly into the fire.  He's grown on me as a personality because I think he really wants to be there and tries really hard, which to me is partly the difference between him and Tristan.  I loved Tristan but Tristan made it clear he didn't much enjoy the process.  Keo is just so enthusiastic about everything and I don't think he's deliberately trying to sabotage anyone.  He's well meaning.

However Keo getting backlash over TPTB not firing him is the part I take issue with because that is all TPTB and not Keo.  If TPTB had looked outside of their little bubble for pros before now, they wouldn't be facing potential backlash at firing one of only 2 POC pros in the history of an over 10 year old show--and I'm not buying the whole POC pros don't exist.  Fans have been asking for more diversity for years and the show has mostly ignored the pleas.  To see the lack of diversity all you have to do is have to look at the pics Carrie Anne posted this morning congratulating the pros.  The female side, especially since Cheryl isn't posted as yet, amounts to four white blondes and a white blonde haired woman who dyes her hair red.  That is not to say I don't love Emma and Lindsay because I do, but this show is not great at casting beyond a certain type.  Last season was even worse because add in Kym and subtract Cheryl and you have an entire female cast of white blondes.

Edited August 25, 2017 by spanana

[Padma]

Good point. It is really SADLY lacking in diversity--and all the "blondes" just add to it.  A hot Latin man or woman would add nicely to the mix. Asian. AA.  The show really should look different than it does. I think diversity would help the choreography and interest level at this point, too. Something. Different.

I'm sure Keo is a very charismatic presence IRL and he seems likeable and, as said above, trying really hard. It just doesn't translate well on television.  And definitely agree with others who wished Sasha got the nod over Gleb.  Glad Alan got his chance, although I'm sure we'll have to hear weeks of Maks razzing him, just because.

[kitcloudkicker]

More casting rumahs c/o People: Nick and Vanessa Lachey

http://people.com/tv/dancing-with-the-stars-nick-vanessa-lachey-season-25-cast/

Bleh, another married couple. I hope they don't kill the one who gets voted off first like they did for the PenaVegas, because just my opinion, that went a bit too far.

 

(what's that? They didn't kill Alexa? I coulda swore from all the crying....)

[spanana]

5 minutes ago, kitcloudkicker said:

More casting rumahs c/o People: Nick and Vanessa Lachey

http://people.com/tv/dancing-with-the-stars-nick-vanessa-lachey-season-25-cast/

Bleh, another married couple. I hope they don't kill the one who gets voted off first like they did for the PenaVegas, because just my opinion, that went a bit too far.

 

(what's that? They didn't kill Alexa? I coulda swore from all the crying....)

How much do we bet they put them with Peta/Maks and do married couple versus married couple? Whether people like Vanessa and Nick remains to be seen but I don't get an Alexa/Carlos vibe from them at all.  I saw them compete on opposite teams on that Hollywood Game Night show and while obviously that is a much different easier experience, they were pretty competitive with each other.  I think they are more the type that will trash talk each other.  I still don't know how to describe the weird vibe of Alexa/Carlos.  My only takeaway from that show is Vanessa seems far removed from pop culture (she thought Simone Biles was a pop star).

Nick can be charming when he wants to be. No idea if he will have much talent though. I would assume he would have a bigger fanbase than his wife, but she might have more dance talent.  But if she gets paired with Maks, she also gets awful choreography.

Witney met her partner today and seems pretty excited about it, so I assume she didn't get another Chris Kattan type.

[kitcloudkicker]

6 minutes ago, spanana said:

Nick can be charming when he wants to be. No idea if he will have much talent though. I would assume he would have a bigger fanbase than his wife, but she might have more dance talent.  But if she gets paired with Maks, she also gets awful choreography.

I haven't paid attention to Nick in a while, I was a big 98 degrees fan in middle school, and then found him to be an ass during the Jessica Simpson years. I'm willing to give them a shot I suppose. I feel like she's always come off a bit bland? Though Godspeed if she's stuck with Maks. 

[truthaboutluv]

It'd be funny if they gave Nick and Vanessa to Peta and Maks because it would mean for the second season, Peta would be dancing with someone named Nick and what's even freakier, that Nick at the time had a fiance named Vanessa (it's already over). Freaky.  

[Toonces464]

21 hours ago, spanana said:

Also while you may not care what color Keo is, he's also the only disliked pro that I've seen people tell to go back to his country.  

I remember quite a few times in the old days when Maks was told to go back to his country. There was also the time the magazine writer referred to him as an "ignorant immigrant" while interviewing Erin Andrews.

 

1 hour ago, spanana said:

How much do we bet they put them with Peta/Maks and do married couple versus married couple?

I said the same thing the second I saw they were competing.

[msburg]

Maybe Nick will have Cheryl?  Make it the brother combo for her?

[kcrabtree06]

I am excited about Nick and Vanessa joining this season! I don't think they will be super annoying like the PenaVegas (unless TPTB get involved). Nick and Vanessa are much older that Carlos and Alexa were when they did the show and have also been married for several years while the PenaVegas were newlyweds who just wanted to shove their new marriage into everyone's face. I am looking forward to this season based on the cast so far!!

[SnarkyTart]

21 hours ago, Padma said:

Very happy to see Mark will be back. For years I thought it interjected himself too much i just the dances (like I feel Keo does now) then he stopped, and I found he was t he choreographer I most looked forward to every week.  Too bad Len always discourages the kind of dances he does. 

Yesss!  I'm beyond thrilled that Mark is back!  It almost (almost) makes up for being subjected to another season of smarmy Gleb and his sleazy choreography.  And having a Property Brother almost makes up for Keo's duck feet and crappy choreography. TPTB must not hate me entirely if they'd give me Mark and a Property Brother in the same season.

[katha]

Yay that Mark is back! I think at his best he's brilliant and something was really missing without him on the show. Sometimes it all ends with trainwrecks, but he's one of the few who dares to take risks and tries genuinely new things. Also, IMO he's always come across (even in his worst phases) as one of the kindest teachers. Well...he was obviously irritated by the PenaVegas, but he probably wasn't the only one...

I actually thought that Keo visibly improved last season. He did a creditable job with a difficult partner. He got on with her quite well, he gave her things where she could ham it up and which weren't too focused on technique. The problem here is that they shoved a newbie with, it seems, zero teaching experience right into a pro spot. He should have started out in troupe. IMO his stint in the troupe visibly helped him last season.

Also don't agree that Maks is a bad choreographer. IMO the best dance last season was Heather's rumba. Barely any of the pros can do good rumbas on this show, it's all either try-hard or wannabe contemporary. The one he did with her was pitch perfect. And it doesn't matter that she's a ringer, there have been plenty of ringers who produced blah rumbas on this show. The problem with Maks is that he's so ridiculously uneven. The week before the rumba he did that...thing...with Frozen. It was atrocious. Just ghastly. And it's been like that pretty much his whole DWTS career: Great stuff...then next week nonsense. No rhyme or reason to it.

As for Sasha. Yeah, he's short. It's a problem when it comes to finding partners for him.  Pros like Artem or Mark don't seem super tall either, but they can be paired with "average height" female celebs. I feel that for Sasha, you have to find him a tiny celeb. And having a ringer is tough. Many pros who have one for the first time seem to crack a bit under the pressure. IMO Sharna showed her inexperience with Charlie White. Keo struggled a bit with Jodie. And so on. Simone also came right after Laurie, it wasn't the greatest timing for her.

Glad that Artem made the cut. She went way too early, but  Nancy was great and compared to Sasha IMO Artem's work with her was more impressive. They gave him someone capable, but with some limitations. He worked to all Nancy's strengths and tailored stuff for her that suited her, challenged her, but didn't overwhelm her. It was a good season for him. He wasn't on my radar at all before, now I'm curious to see what he'll do this time around.

On the female side, I'm curious what Witney will show. She's been really fading away since her winning season and it's a shame. Perhaps she'll find new motivation and shine. Also glad that Cheryl is back.

[calipiano81]

I agree with your whole post, katha. :) I developed new appreciation for Artem and Keo last season as well. I might put Nancy's samba up there with Heather's rumba, though.

And while I think Mark may have had a bit of frustration with the Penavega situation, I thought he still developed a rapport with Alexa and was a patient teacher with her.

[DancingD]

I thought Heather's rhumba was Alan's choreography? 

[lavenderblue]

Alan choreographed Heather's tango (a dance I thought was pretty strong as her choreography went last year, and the main reason I'm interested enough to see what he can do as a pro), but after that Maks claimed at least some input/did all choreography -- don't quite recall his level of involvement for the cha cha, but the jazz was on him. By the rumba, Maks was making his full return.

Edited August 26, 2017 by lavenderblue

[crowceilidh]

Not a Keo fan.  He duckwalks and his feet and legs are just odd when he's dancing.  I'm sure he's a lovely guy and I certainly prefer him to Gleb who makes my stomach churn personality-wise even though he's a better dancer than Keo IMO.

I find the pro list quite disappointing although I'm not sure what I'd like instead, so that suggests to me that it may be time for me to stop watching.

[smiley13]

The return of Mark is very happy news to me!  I just hope he is rewarded with a great partner for coming back.

And I hope Val gets a dud and leaves first, with Maks going second.

[Toonces464]

11 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

I certainly prefer him to Gleb who makes my stomach churn personality-wise even though he's a better dancer than Keo IMO.

 

I don't get the whole thing with Gleb. They brought him on seemingly as a replacement for Maks when he pretended he was leaving the first time and that didn't go as planned and Gleb was gone after that one season. Then they brought him back 7 seasons later, just as Maks made his 97th grand return (and hasn't left again), yet we're still stuck with Gleb every season. I'm not sure why they're keeping him around because he doesn't seem to be gaining much popularity among fans.

[JerseyGirlFan]

[Mittengirl]

Who is Andrea Nittoli?  Another "star" I am supposed to be familiar with?

[GreekGeek]

Andrea Nittoli

Not exactly a great resume, but not one of those silly "You Tube" or reality show "stars" either.

[spanana]

So troupe update...according to Kristyn Burtt, so far it's Brandon, Sasha, Britt and Hayley.  So Sasha is going back to troupe.  Wasn't sure if he would or if he would just skip the season.  Probably another couple to be named later.

In related matters, when somebody asked Jenna if she was going to be on this season she said "she couldn't say yet" or something along those lines, which to me means yes.  My gut is she's still on retainer to be a pro, maybe in case something falls through with Cheryl.  Technically Cheryl hasn't been confirmed as the last pro as yet (through gossip rags yes but not through official channels) and I highly doubt she's going to come back for a dud partner, so maybe if her partner doesn't sign or falls through at the last minute, she will change her mind.  I'm 99.9% sure that the next person in line behind Cheryl is Jenna.  The only hiccup Jenna has is that she is on SYTYCD at the moment so if she makes it to the finals there, there is overlap of the two shows.  But the fact that she is being cagey about it means something.  Either she's angling for some other role at the show or she hasn't gotten a definitive "no" on being a pro this season.

[BW Manilowe]

On 8/25/2017 at 7:59 PM, spanana said:

How much do we bet they put them with Peta/Maks and do married couple versus married couple? Whether people like Vanessa and Nick remains to be seen but I don't get an Alexa/Carlos vibe from them at all.  I saw them compete on opposite teams on that Hollywood Game Night show and while obviously that is a much different easier experience, they were pretty competitive with each other.  I think they are more the type that will trash talk each other.  I still don't know how to describe the weird vibe of Alexa/Carlos.  My only takeaway from that show is Vanessa seems far removed from pop culture (she thought Simone Biles was a pop star).

Nick can be charming when he wants to be. No idea if he will have much talent though. I would assume he would have a bigger fanbase than his wife, but she might have more dance talent.  But if she gets paired with Maks, she also gets awful choreography.

Witney met her partner today and seems pretty excited about it, so I assume she didn't get another Chris Kattan type.

I'm a bit surprised people think Vanessa seems far removed from pop culture, because among her credits is a stint as a NYC-based correspondent for Entertainment Tonight at least in 2005, & a stint as host of MTV's Total Request Live, at some point before or after that. Admittedly, though, she may have been more "conversant" (knowledgeable) in pop culture back then than she may have stayed in the years since (especially since she's become a working wife & mom of 3 since then, which tends to keep someone busy enough to lose track of normally unimportant things like pop culture); or perhaps she just isn't knowledgeable when it comes to sports, which Simone Biles is known for.

Back in the 2010-2011 TV season Vanessa, under her maiden name Minnillo, & Nick appeared together in an episode (Pōwā Maka Moana, "Pirate" in English) of the new version of Hawaii Five-0 on CBS. Nick played a guy who took a group of kids with wealthy parents who were on Spring Break in Honolulu hostage for ransom off a party boat they'd all been lured to with free tickets; Vanessa played a worker on the party boat who seemed innocent regarding the kidnaping but ended up being Nick's character's accomplice in the end (she apparently knew about all the rich kids somehow, so Nick's character could target them).