S03.E02 A Philadelphia Story

[jmonique]

18 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Because it was fucking nasty for Kate to say it.  What if someone told her that someone that obese shouldn't even THINK of having kids.  Randall knows he's not Jack's bio son, but so what?  Adoption doesn't make a child an alien.  Besides, Randall is more like Jack than either of the bio kids.

Randall wasn't even there when she said it. He got it secondhand, and, again, he's had 38 years of being adopted, 21 years of living life without Jack, and he had a year with William. But I feel like we're no further in his storyline than we were when we watched Randall knock on William's door. He's still flailing and immediately gets thrown into an identity crisis, when he has to know she meant genetically.
EDITED TO ADD: What I would have loved is Randall putting a pin in his own dismay, and talking to Kate about it later. We never get him talking to the family he grew up with; Randall is way too often siloed into his own identity crises.

Of course, I felt like we were also stuck in a loop, watching Rebecca try to bite her tongue, Kate throw her defenses up and goad Rebecca into a fight, and Miguel and Kevin watching them bicker again, awkwardly, while Toby steamed off to the side.
They're all just such martyrs. The only one showing any growth, IMO, is Kevin.

Edited October 3, 2018 by jmonique

[bichonblitz]

11 hours ago, RickyB said:

Did Jack and Rebecca go to an open house in the house Randal eventually buys to raise his family? It looked like it. 

The house they were looking at was in PA. Randall lives in NJ.

[bichonblitz]

Not a Rebecca fan and not a Toby fan, however, this is not the first time Toby has told off Rebecca. I don't like his lack of respect. You don't talk (yell) at your MIL like that. Take a cue from Miguel and stay out of it and let mother and daughter work it out, they always do. 

Does Randall end up going to Howard? I can't remember.

Edited October 3, 2018 by bichonblitz

[againstthewind]

I’m really, really over William.

 

I can’t get over how good the teen actors are. Last season, I didn’t see adult Kevin in teenage Kevin as much, but damn he nailed it last night.

[Lady Calypso]

9 minutes ago, bichonblitz said:

Does Randall end up going to Howard? I can't remember.

We know Randall does end up going to college; we just don't know where. We know it's in the same city where Beth is, since they meet at a party. So we don't know exactly how much time Randall takes off before he goes to college, if he even takes any time off. But seeing as Kevin was with Randall when he met Beth, it could be that he chose a college closer to home.

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

He has no business getting all jealous because Kate is, maybe, going to get to pass on Jack's genes.

Randall wasn't jealous. Until his daughters were born, he'd been the guy not related by blood to anyone he knows. And spent most of his lifetime being "the black guy" within different spheres of white people. He's used to steeling himself not to wonder how the people in his circles view him or speak of him among themselves, when he's not in the room. Or rather, trying to gauge when he needs to know that, and when he's better off setting that question aside.

Now, just as he did in high school, Randall sits down with his family and hundreds of strangers to watch his brother and celebrate Kevin's public success. And as he does, he learns from Kevin that among themselves, both his siblings -- Kate as well as her twin -- speak openly about how there's no "piece of Dad" within him to pass on. For Randall in that moment, this is the real answer to "So what did I miss." 

 

Quote

 I can get why that really stung, especially after hearing how he could never really be a part of Williams world.

Chichi didn't say never; she said he wasn't -- and that if he wanted to be, he was going about it all wrong. Rushing off to save the day instead of sitting down and spending time. Assuming that "help" is problem-solving, and that he doesn't need to know the person to know what she may need.

Shades of William. The night that Chichi arrived in the neighborhood, William gently tried to press his help on her, and she sternly refused. Over-reacted, perhaps, but made the point that help was hers to accept as she chose. Some time after that, on another night that William is alone and down the hall, Chichi is alone with a crying baby, and William offers her adult companionship -- community (as he will later say) in the form of bad stew. She recognizes this offer for what it is, and returns it in kind. They begin a dance, an improvisation, a fluid back-and-forth, a being-there-for-one-another, a relationship.

As Chichi tells Randall, There's no "we" when it's really just you doing unto me. And don't use me to make yourself a "we" just because you don't know who you are. That ain't us.

[Enigma X]

2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I get Kate's point but would have not told Kevin (or Randall) that. I also get their feelings of hurt by the comment too. 

 

For the record, I hope Randall does not move to William's neighborhood. I think the race and class message that would be sending would be wrong. Getting to genuinely know and care for the people there is fine.

I want to know more about how Beth grew up. I get the feeling that her roots are not humble. In fact, I get the feeling she is from an upper middle class black family. So, because she was (assumedly) raised by two black parents that (may be) upper middle class, would she belong? I bet Beth will have lots to say as an urban planner as well (or hope so), because these are some of the things we deal with.

Quoting myself because I meant to say "not" in my original post. Those who like the original may want to rethink that.

[Ohiopirate02]

One thing that bothered me with Rebecca in this episode is her research into IVF.  I don't buy that she read up on it because of her friend's daughter.  Unless the other woman was also obese like Kate, why would Rebecca know about the risks for Kate?  To me, her knowledge of the risks of IVF made it seem like Rebecca researches Kate's health on her own.  This is not normal behavior.  Does she do this with Kevin's addiction or Randall's anxiety?  How long has she been researching Kate's health? 

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, CleoCaesar said:

The fact that he's stunned into furious silence over an offhand comment (that was clearly said in the context of passing on Jack's DNA, which Randall does not possess) is worthy of a few eyerolls.

I think what's important here is that Kevin didn't add that detail regarding looks and DNA. The movie was about to start, so he didn't have time to elaborate, which is unfortunate. When you keep that in mind, it makes Randall's reaction justified. Now, if he were upset because his kids couldn't look like Jack, then that WOULD be strange (and stupid).

The whole Rebecca/Kate/Toby story is very Steel Magnolias to me. In that movie, I completely agreed with Sally Field's character, and here, I agree with Rebecca. There are serious health concerns with what Toby and Kate are doing. I completely understand Kate's desire to have a child with her father's genes. Of course! I have a heart. However, realistically, a woman with her health issues has an incredibly small chance of getting pregnant and maintaining a healthy pregnancy not to even mention the age factor. As much as you might want something, some times, that isn't possible. I am genuinely wondering if Kate truly wants to be a parent or if she's more concerned with having another piece of her father around in her life. I say that because I think if Jack were alive right now, he would remind Kate how Randall came into their lives and how much both Jack and Rebecca wanted to be parents. Jack would actually be able to reason with her. I agree with others who've said that Kate's attitude is bizarre given her family situation with regards to Randall. Her comment to Kevin was really mean; I wouldn't have blamed him if he'd told her to fuck off after she said that. It seemed to have come out of nowhere, and it makes me wonder what Kate truly thinks about Kevin's life. Again, it was bizarre. I think Kevin would make a wonderful dad.

I also don't understand why Kate isn't in therapy. I mean, they ALL could use it, but in her situation, it seems necessary.

I also take anti-depression medication, and the plot line with Toby is infuriating to me. No one intentionally does what he is doing! I can't get over it.

Edited October 3, 2018 by PepSinger

[QQQQ]

13 hours ago, balmz said:

the basil comment annoyed me, as a gardener i know that you can very easily grow basil in  a small pot

Like this?

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I want to know more about how Beth grew up. I get the feeling that her roots are not humble. In fact, I get the feeling she is from an upper middle class black family.

We know that Beth was raised in a very full house - she told William so in the scene where they got high (one of my favorite scenes). Parents, siblings, and I think aunts and cousins (we now know Zoe lived with them) too, in a house with one bathroom. That reads more modestly to me.

I haven't seen the episode yet but I'm already irked at Kate. I'm growing to really dislike her. 

I'm from Philly (it's with a y, never seen it spelled any other way) so I'm curious to see how it's depicted.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Empress1

[Enigma X]

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

We know that Beth was raised in a very full house - she told William so in the scene where they got high (one of my favorite scenes). Parents, siblings, and I think aunts and cousins (we now know Zoe lived with them) too, in a house with one bathroom. That reads more modestly to me.

I haven't seen the episode yet but I'm already irked at Kate. I'm growing to really dislike her.

Forgot about that.

[Miles]

Edit: Sorry, wrong season.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Miles

[ShadowFacts]

19 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

One thing that bothered me with Rebecca in this episode is her research into IVF.  I don't buy that she read up on it because of her friend's daughter.  Unless the other woman was also obese like Kate, why would Rebecca know about the risks for Kate?  To me, her knowledge of the risks of IVF made it seem like Rebecca researches Kate's health on her own.  This is not normal behavior.  Does she do this with Kevin's addiction or Randall's anxiety?  How long has she been researching Kate's health? 

I think it's normal behavior for a parent.  Or else I'm not normal, either.  Researching your child's problem even though they are an adult is what most would do, I think.  In the digital age it is easier, and you don't stop caring the moment your child reaches 18 or 21 or whatever age.  What you do with your research is another story, but I would sense a disconnected relationship if a parent did not attempt to learn what they could. 

[MsChicklet]

6 minutes ago, QQQQ said:

Like this?

Nice to know I won't be alone on the River Styx Express.

 

8 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I think what's important here is that Kevin didn't add that detail regarding looks and DNA.

I hope Kate brings this up if Randall confronts her.

Maybe Randall's heading for another breakdown. He's trying to be the Daddest Dad that Ever Dadded not just to his own girls, but Deja. Without thinking of how others might be affected, he takes on the problems of everyone William ever so much as smiled at. He's got major responsibilities with the building, and a time-suck commute to go with it. Now he's got part of Kate's remark to brood over for another Thanksgiving Dinner Blowup.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

Chichi (or Gigi) annoyed me at the end of the episode. She told Randall that he didn't bother to chat with or get to know anyone at the rec center and instead tried to fix it. A) He actually did try to chat with Chichi but she told him to STFU so she could read her book. Which is fine, but it's not like she was open to socializing with him either. Maybe she didn't like the conversation he started about what was wrong with the rec center but if she wanted him to get to know her she could have explained the issues they had and then steered the conversation to other topics. B) The rec center actually does need to be fixed so what's wrong with him trying to fix it? It's not unreasonable of him to want his daughter to have basic safety. She doesn't have to be so offended by his initiative. I mean, he did replace the light bulbs, which is a start. Just because a million other light bulbs need to be fixed doesn't mean you can't fix the ones in front of your own rec center.

Edited October 3, 2018 by DoubleUTeeEff
remove spacing

[Liamsmom617]

13 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

And I'm surprised you didn't pick up on my questions being rhetorical. I get why Randall got pissy, I just think he needs to get the fuck over it already. He's almost 40. He's had decades to have his identity crises and come to terms with things. The fact that he's stunned into furious silence over an offhand comment (that was clearly said in the context of passing on Jack's DNA, which Randall does not possess) is worthy of a few eyerolls.

Of course your question was rhetorical. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. It’s obvioysly a sensitive topic for Randall, hence what many would see as an overreaction to an offhand comment. I’m one of three adult children and am also a Mom if three, and sometimes this show hits amazingly close to home. Even at my age (50), there are certain hot-button issues to which my siblings, parents, and I don’t always react logically.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Liamsmom617

[Lady Calypso]

32 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I am genuinely wondering if Kate truly wants to be a parent or if she's more concerned with having another piece of her father around in her life. I say that because I think if Jack were alive right now, he would remind Kate how Randall came into their lives and how much both Jack and Rebecca wanted to be parents. Jack would actually be able to reason with her. I agree with others who've said that Kate's attitude is bizarre given her family situation with regards to Randall. Her comment to Kevin was really mean; I wouldn't have blamed him if he'd told her to fuck off after she said that. It seemed to have come out of nowhere, and it makes me wonder what Kate truly thinks about Kevin's life. Again, it was bizarre. I think Kevin would make a wonderful dad.

It's interesting, because we haven't really seen Kate interact with any kids, so we don't really know how she'll handle a child. I do agree that it does seem like Kate is more into the idea of having a child to look like Jack and her getting to carry on his biological legacy, so to speak. It's a very flawed concept, for sure, but it's something that has been consistent with Kate. She was close to Jack. She's been heavily affected by Jack's death. She has his urn in her home and not Rebecca or Kevin or Randall. So her comment about her wanting to get pregnant to basically have a piece of her father with her, even when it's not clear that her child would look like Jack, stems from her deep grief and how she feels like she's the only one who can honour his legacy over Kevin or Randall. It's obvious what she meant to me. The fact that she isn't considering adopting or fostering like Randall has really does say a lot about at least part of her intentions. 

It's like Randall's need for a child to adopt last season, and I think he had made a comment about it needing to be a boy. Much like that situation, Kate may be looking for a void to fill and I don't think it'll work out the way that she wants. It's natural to want to have a child, and I think there are women like Kate who would rather it was biologically their own. However, Kate's issues go deeper than just wanting a biological child, in that it's more about Jack than herself. 

I do wish we got more scenes of Kate interacting with....basically any child or baby. I honestly still think that Kate needs to still heal from the loss of Jack from 20+ years ago before moving forward with big decisions like this, but if it hasn't happened in 20 years, it's not gonna happen overnight. 

I think Kevin would make a fantastic dad, but he makes for a fantastic uncle and sometimes, that's all a person ever needs to be. They can be good with kids, and with their nieces or nephews, and also not be fit to be a dad themselves. Kevin has made some tremendous progress throughout the series, but I think he's not quite there in terms of raising his own child. He definitely could be a dad, and he'd be a great one, but I don't think he's ready yet. Plus, I'd love to see a show where a main character decides to stay unwed and childless. That's something that is true to real life and doesn't make them empty if they don't get married or have kids. I'd be perfectly content with either scenario happening.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

She told Randall that he didn't bother to chat with or get to know anyone at the rec center and instead tried to fix it.

Didn't she say she was trying to read her book when he did try speaking with her?  

 

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's interesting, because we haven't really seen Kate interact with any kids, so we don't really know how she'll handle a child.

I've been thinking about that since her miscarriage.  We've seen her in the same room with Randall's kids, but never really interacting with them.  Kevin talks to them.  They get excited when Uncle Kevin comes over, but seem kind of meh about Aunt Kate.  

[Ohiopirate02]

It would be interesting if Kate was able to get pregnant, build up her fantasy about how she is going to have Jack Jr. and then have a girl who takes after Toby.  I would much rather see that story line then the one we are stuck with right now.  I am not really invested into the current one, since I can't see the showrunners killing off Kate in the first 5 episodes of season 3.  I would rather them give Kate what she wants with a twist that deepens her character and drives the narrative further. 

[DFWGina]

15 hours ago, mtlchick said:

And yes, I actually DO want to know how Mario Lopez has not aged since Saved By The Bell. 

Better living through chemicals!

15 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Randall's minute-long silence at the very end provoked like ten eyerolls from me. He's not Jack's biological son. Get over it, Randall. Why is this some massive deal? Why does a man pushing 40 have this drama queen reaction?

I found it very painful to process as well so was not shocked or disappointed in his reaction.

15 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I know Toby's outburst was supposed to hint at anti-depressant withdrawal symptoms (irritability, mood swings) but I cheered a little when he told Rebecca to stop talking.

I almost never cheer for Toby but do enjoy his comic relief to that Debbie Downer he's married to. He's gonna be right there with her off his meds... but seriously - Go Toby! 

14 hours ago, AllThatJazz91 said:

It is getting annoying how Kevin can never have his moment. But we've seen since he was a kid, he was the forgotten one. So I'm sure he's use to it. Of course that doesn't make it right. But that's just how it is in the Pearson family. 

He is the one that has the most fame outside the family but the least attention from within it... :-(

14 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I found this episode dull. 

Yeah - it was dull and boring to me too. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Didn't she say she was trying to read her book when he did try speaking with her?  

 

I've been thinking about that since her miscarriage.  We've seen her in the same room with Randall's kids, but never really interacting with them.  Kevin talks to them.  They get excited when Uncle Kevin comes over, but seem kind of meh about Aunt Kate.  

His idea of talking to her was to press her about the problems at the community center. Not ask how her day was, or whether she liked her book, or how Skye was doing in the new school year. I know Randall means well and is doing good things, but he treats people like projects, with Deja and the building tenants. People tend not to enjoy being objects of pity and improvement. 

 

I can’t recall a single line of dialogue between Kate and any of her nieces. The show barely registers Tess and Annie as characters any more, so there’s that. But Kate seems like she enjoys the idea of motherhood more than she will the reality, because in her mind a child is a fulfilled wish, not a whole separate person with an individual identity. 

[kili]

Quote

It's interesting, because we haven't really seen Kate interact with any kids, so we don't really know how she'll handle a child.

I think the only child we've really seen her interact with is her boss's daughter from Season 1 (when she was working for a short while as an event planner).

We've certainly seen Kevin interact with Randall's three girls. He is a great uncle to them.

Speaking of Kevin, I didn't sense the usual frostiness between Kevin and Miguel, so I hope that is resolved. I'm liking Miguel more and more.

[balmz]

3 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Bahahahahah! Can't stop teeheeing over that (bolded). Gonna have to work that into some conversation in my life. Thank you!

 

Aww fer geez. We're gonna get Randall moving the fam so he can run for councilman or mayor or whatever to get shit done.

What Kate said was harsh. I get she meant about DNA but there's more than that to Jack's legacy as a father and man. Randall deferring college to help his family broke my heart. He's a good man.

I'm looking forward to the Jack Vietnam and brother flashbacks. Makes me wonder how much he told Rebecca about it all.

huh that'd be pretty interesting if randall did that, might be a cool new plot for randall and add something refreshing, maybe then annie is angry and instead of being mad at deja she's mad at randall and gets into legal trouble

Edited October 3, 2018 by balmz

[General Days]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

As for what Kate said, I can't believe someone who had an adopted brother would be that hung up on genetics.  If it were Kevin who felt that way, considering his and Randall's issues growing up, I wound understand it more.  But, I was led to believe that Randall and Kate loved each other and got along as well as any other bro and sis when they were kids.

 

I think you can want to continue your dead-too-soon father's bloodline, without being hung up on it. It can be a factor in your decision making, without being a hang-up. Now, with Kate, this could go either way, but I don't think someone who has adopted siblings wanting to have a biological child is necessarily a hang-up.  

Kate, Kevin, and Randall all carry much of Jack into the world just by living their lives, but only Kate and Kevin have the potential to pass on that part of him. None of the Pearsons lost their experiences with Jack, their memories of him, or their love for him. His living, breathing body died. Only those two carry some of it and can pass it on. I don't see that as a hang-up so much as a simple fact.

 

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

But Kate didn't say that to him. She said it  to her mother in naming her reasons for wanting her own biological child, rather than adopt,  since she thought she would probably be the only one to carry Jack's DNA to the next generation.  There's no reason to think Kate would have said that to Randall's face.  Kevin was the one who was insensitive enough to pass it on while not realizing how it would hurt Randall.  I say things to my Brother A about B that I would never say to B's face.  Like "B's illness has aged him terribly."  Don't we all do that?  Kate wants to look down at her baby and see Jack's eyes or whatever, I don't think she's horrible for wanting that.

 

Yes this, although she could have botched it with him there, too. All of the Pearsons (like all of us) are seeing things from their own (individual) perspectives. I don't think Kate meant what she said to in any way be a hurtful thing to Kevin or Randall. Even if she had said it better, had he been present, it might have still pressed Randall's I-Don't-Fit-Anywhere buttons, but those are his buttons. And it was Kevin who (unwittingly, imo) pressed them this time. 

 

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Not at all, but she could have said that without saying she was "the only one who can pass on anything of dad's". Kevin may have biological children in the future, and Randall has already passed on several of Jack's traditions like "Pilgrim Rick". It's the shading of her brothers that most of us are objecting to, not the fact that she wants a biological child.

 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Oooh, I know how they can fix everything.  Toby can go back on his meds and randall can donate sperm to Rebecca.

Edit: I was kidding, but now I'm really afraid this is the route they're going to go.  After all, it would explain the connection to the mystery person to specifically Tessa (half sister), Randall (bio-daughter), Toby (adopted/step/surrogate daughter).

 

Did you mean Kate, rather than Rebecca? (Either way, there's not enough therapy in the world.)

 

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

Because it was fucking nasty for Kate to say it.  What if someone told her that someone that obese shouldn't even THINK of having kids.  Randall knows he's not Jack's bio son, but so what?  Adoption doesn't make a child an alien.  Besides, Randall is more like Jack than either of the bio kids.

 

Randall wasn't there. It was at Kevin's apartment. Characters present: Miguel, Rebecca, Toby, Kate, Kevin. Adoption doesn't make a child an alien, and no one on the show said anything of the kind. 

Here's the exchange. I went back and watched it, because I seemed to be remembering it differently than a lot of the discussion here.

 

Quote

 

REBECCA: Kate, I'm just saying, why would you take that risk, where there's so many other options out there?

KATE: Because I want to. Because I want to. Because I want to look at the baby in his face, and I want to--I want to see Toby. I want to see myself. I want to see--I want to see Dad. And I'm the only one in the family who's gonna carry on a piece of Dad.

KEVIN: What about me? 

KATE (rolling eyes): Okay, Kev.

KEVIN: "Okay Kev," really? What's that supposed to mean? 

KATE: You're not serious.

KEVIN: No. No, apparently I'm not serious ever, about anything. This is great. 

 

 

Now here's Randall and Kevin's scene, at the film premiere.

 

Quote

 

RANDALL: What'd I miss?

KEVIN: Today? Uh, quite a bit, actually. Kate and Toby are doing IVF. 

RANDALL: Yeah? Good for them.

KEVIN: I think so. Mom kind of flipped out a little bit though, you know, which upset Kate. She was like, "Well, I'm the only one that's going to be able to pass on a piece of Dad," right -- which made me upset, and -- even though, to be honest with you, it really wasn't about that for me. You know what I mean? Let me ask you a question. Do you think serious people take me seriously? What? Hey.

RANDALL: No, I... She said she was the only one who could pass on a piece of Dad? 

[lights dim]

KEVIN (gesturing toward the screen): It's starting.

 

 

I thought it was all pretty interesting, because it's a different kind of privilege -- the privilege of a biological child in a mixed bio/adoptive family. Now, Rebecca went out of her way (maybe to her other kids' detriment) to include Randall, and while Jack and Kevin might have had more in common (sports rather than school books), Jack made concerted efforts to be the father Randall needed (things like taking him to that martial arts class led by a black man, making sure he saw Howard U, facilitating the friendship with the black family).

Because Kate is Jack and Rebecca's biological child, she can't know what it feels to be adopted into the family (never mind be a black child in a white family and neighborhood), but so when she's giving an honest answer to the question of why she wants to pursue IVF over adoption, she doesn't think how her words are going to affect Kevin (who she just doesn't think will ever settle down enough to have a kid). Randall wasn't there, but that might not have been at the top of her mind either, especially if she doesn't know Randall felt and still feels like an outsider to some extent. 

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, balmz said:

huh that'd be pretty interesting if randall did that, might be a cool new plot for randall and add something refreshing, maybe then tess is angry and instead of being mad at deja she's mad at randall and gets into legal trouble

Is this really a thing?  I know kids get mad about having to move, but do they really break the law in huge numbers in protest over it?  Especially kids, who up until then, were pretty well-adusted.

1 minute ago, General Days said:

Did you mean Kate, rather than Rebecca? (Either way, there's not enough therapy in the world.)

Yes, I meant Kate.  They probably missed the boat by a little if Rebecca wanted to do that:)  Plus, that wouldn't have allowed Randall to get in on Jack's DNA.

[balmz]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Is this really a thing?  I know kids get mad about having to move, but do they really break the law in huge numbers in protest over it?  Especially kids, who up until then, were pretty well-adusted.

oh i forgot to add, then maybe randall becomes obsessed or very busy with his new job with helping others but ignoring his kids to  a degree and then she feels neglected over the years and the anger and resentment builds up, deja is just happy to have people who care about her and stability and tess is different then annie and still wants to help people, however annie grows tired of it and acts out

Edited October 3, 2018 by balmz

[PepSinger]

59 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's interesting, because we haven't really seen Kate interact with any kids, so we don't really know how she'll handle a child. I do agree that it does seem like Kate is more into the idea of having a child to look like Jack and her getting to carry on his biological legacy, so to speak. It's a very flawed concept, for sure, but it's something that has been consistent with Kate. She was close to Jack. She's been heavily affected by Jack's death. She has his urn in her home and not Rebecca or Kevin or Randall. So her comment about her wanting to get pregnant to basically have a piece of her father with her, even when it's not clear that her child would look like Jack, stems from her deep grief and how she feels like she's the only one who can honour his legacy over Kevin or Randall. It's obvious what she meant to me. The fact that she isn't considering adopting or fostering like Randall has really does say a lot about at least part of her intentions. 

Yes! I can't even picture Kate as a mother because I have barely seen her interact with children, and she seems more focused on the Jack aspect than actually being a mother. Well said.

[Neurochick]

9 minutes ago, General Days said:

Randall wasn't there. It was at Kevin's apartment. Characters present: Miguel, Rebecca, Toby, Kate, Kevin. Adoption doesn't make a child an alien, and no one on the show said anything of the kind. 

I know Randall wasn't there.  I also know that adoption doesn't make a child an alien, but what was Kate suggesting when she made that comment?  That's what I thought was nasty.  It's akin to people who will tell an ethnic joke if they know a person of said ethnicity isn't in earshot.

[General Days]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I know Randall wasn't there.  I also know that adoption doesn't make a child an alien, but what was Kate suggesting when she made that comment?  That's what I thought was nasty.  It's akin to people who will tell an ethnic joke if they know a person of said ethnicity isn't in earshot.

Oh, okay. I would never equate wanting to continue your biological family line with anything like that, because they're not alike. 

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I know Randall wasn't there.  I also know that adoption doesn't make a child an alien, but what was Kate suggesting when she made that comment?  That's what I thought was nasty.  It's akin to people who will tell an ethnic joke if they know a person of said ethnicity isn't in earshot.

I think the meaning behind Kate's comment is simpler than that: what she meant was that she was apparently the only one to have a child to be biologically Jack's. I didn't like the comment either way, but Kate's thought process is on having a child who she could see physically with Jack's traits. Actually, to be more specific, Kate is looking to have a child who she could see resembling Jack physically. In that moment, she totally forgot that biology is not the only important part. Again, not a nice comment at all and it offended Randall and Kevin equally. But it is very true to real life, where there are woman who don't really consider adoption or fostering because they want a child of their own who looks like them and share their genetics. I don't think Kate was even thinking of Randall being adopted in that sense; rather, her mind was narrowed on one path: Kevin was never going to have kids to take after Jack, and Randall was adopted which mean he couldn't have kids to take after Jack. 

The comment was really about Jack and centered around her bond with her father, which was more self righteous than anything. Hopefully, Randall and Kate can have a conversation where he can explain why her comment was wrong and why Jack's legacy can be honoured more than biologically. 

[Neurochick]

Kate's more selfish and thoughtless than I thought she was.  It makes me wonder what type of mother she'd be.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Kate's more selfish and thoughtless than I thought she was.  It makes me wonder what type of mother she'd be.

Who really knows. Maybe being a mother would be the thing to get Kate to start thinking of others before herself, or she could be so wrapped up in her weight insecurities that Toby would have to step up a lot. Personally, I don't really care to see Kate being a mother. I'd rather see her fix her own issues first with her attitude toward people and her selfishness. Her and Randall both need to go through some serious therapy. It seems to have helped Kevin!

[Dejana]

I wonder how much of Kate's drive to have a biological child and the avoidance (so far) of considering alternatives is a function of the writers not wanting to do an adoption story again, because they've already gone that route with Randall. As a result, either intentionally or unconsciously, the writers have completely steered Kate away from even considering that direction.

[Kremit]

I'm an adoptive mom and had an adopted brother, and I gasped when Kate made that comment.  Not only would I be offended about my own place in the family if I was Randall, but I would be even more upset to think that my sister considered my child to be something "less" in the family because they weren't blood related.  What Kate said was offensive to Kevin and Randall, but also Tess, Annie and soon Deja.

[Driad]

If Randall and Beth had had a son, and Randall had told Kate et al. that he wanted to name the boy Jack, I wonder how they would react.  I can imagine Kate getting very angry about it.

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Rebecca and Kate seemed to be able to casually converse before the IVF revelation, and then Rebecca is silently judging Kate.  

I didn't see judging, but a terrified mother trying (and failing) to keep it together. I also didn't see a rude or mean Kate, just someone already over emotional due to hormones, feeling defensive, and pushed until she blurted out something she would probably never say out loud under normal circumstances.

As for Rebecca failing as a mother in the depths of grief, all I can say is give her a break. I have a friend going through this and no one should judge how well someone handles the overwhelming task of now having to take care of everything and everyone, while having to move through your own devastation.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, Driad said:

If Randall and Beth had had a son, and Randall had told Kate et al. that he wanted to name the boy Jack, I wonder how they would react.  I can imagine Kate getting very angry about it.

I don't think she would.  Not even a little. The only way I would see it being an issue is if she and Beth were both pregnant at the same time with boys and both Kate and RAndall wanted the name.  But, at any other time, nope.

[Lady Calypso]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think she would.  Not even a little. The only way I would see it being an issue is if she and Beth were both pregnant at the same time with boys and both Kate and RAndall wanted the name.  But, at any other time, nope.

I could see Kate initially reacting badly to it, although she'd likely accept it at the end. From experience, I was supposed to be named Sarah because my family all are named something that starts with the letter S. But my aunt completely freaked out and told them that I could not be named Sarah because when she had a daughter, she would name her Sarah (spoiler: my aunt had only one boy nearly a decade later). So my parents had to give up the name Sarah for Jessica, since they had no other S names that they liked. Granted, my mother is a pushover so it's quite possible that my aunt just said that she wanted to name her future daughter Sarah and my mother gave in immediately.

So, I could see this being a plot point, even for an episode and even if it is worked out by the end of the episode. I could see this show going that way because they've presented Kate very consistently when it comes to her relationship with Jack.

[Violetgoblin6]

7 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Bahahahahah! Can't stop teeheeing over that (bolded). Gonna have to work that into some conversation in my life. Thank you!

 

Aww fer geez. We're gonna get Randall moving the fam so he can run for councilman or mayor or whatever to get shit done.

What Kate said was harsh. I get she meant about DNA but there's more than that to Jack's legacy as a father and man. Randall deferring college to help his family broke my heart. He's a good man.

I'm looking forward to the Jack Vietnam and brother flashbacks. Makes me wonder how much he told Rebecca about it all.

Yeah, I bet Randall goes through gentrification of the entire North Philadelphia neighborhood. He becomes councilman and basically transforms the entire place into nirvana. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Violetgoblin6
Clarification

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

I could see Kate initially reacting badly to it, although she'd likely accept it at the end. From experience, I was supposed to be named Sarah because my family all are named something that starts with the letter S. But my aunt completely freaked out and told them that I could not be named Sarah because when she had a daughter, she would name her Sarah (spoiler: my aunt had only one boy nearly a decade later). So my parents had to give up the name Sarah for Jessica, since they had no other S names that they liked. Granted, my mother is a pushover so it's quite possible that my aunt just said that she wanted to name her future daughter Sarah and my mother gave in immediately.

So, I could see this being a plot point, even for an episode and even if it is worked out by the end of the episode. I could see this show going that way because they've presented Kate very consistently when it comes to her relationship with Jack.

Yes, but you're kind of going along with my point.  I don't think Kate would have an issue with Randall name a child Jack just because it was Randall's child.  Only because she would want the name for her child.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, but you're kind of going along with my point.  I don't think Kate would have an issue with Randall name a child Jack just because it was Randall's child.  Only because she would want the name for her child.

I definitely am running under the assumption that Kate wants to name her kid Jack, of course. If she isn't inclined to the name, then this isn't an issue to begin with. But we're still a ways off from that happening, if Kate does get pregnant, and that may not even happen until the end of the season, if they do go the pregnancy route.

This is why I would have rather Randall/Beth not adopt Deja. This kind of closes the door to Toby and Kate adopting, since I can't see the show wanting them adopting along with Deja's adoption to Beth/Randall (which is dumb but TV shows don't like repeating storylines unless it's done in a specific way). But hopefully I'm wrong on that front.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think Kevin would make a fantastic dad, but he makes for a fantastic uncle and sometimes, that's all a person ever needs to be. They can be good with kids, and with their nieces or nephews, and also not be fit to be a dad themselves. Kevin has made some tremendous progress throughout the series, but I think he's not quite there in terms of raising his own child. He definitely could be a dad, and he'd be a great one, but I don't think he's ready yet. Plus, I'd love to see a show where a main character decides to stay unwed and childless. That's something that is true to real life and doesn't make them empty if they don't get married or have kids. I'd be perfectly content with either scenario happening.

Yes!  I'd like to see this more.  Although I really didn't understand where Kate was coming from with her intimation that it would never happen with Kevin.  Why the hell not?  She's annoying me a lot but they all kind of are and I don't know how much more I want to see them being dickish to each other. 

[PRgal]

I can see Kate being upset if Randall and Beth have another child (or if Kevin had a baby), a boy, and named him Jack.  Because he'd actually be Jack Pearson.  Kate's son would be Jack Tobyslastname.  Or Jack Pearson Tobyslastname (with or without a hyphen).  

[Ohiopirate02]

30 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I didn't see judging, but a terrified mother trying (and failing) to keep it together. I also didn't see a ride or mean Kate, just someone already over emotional due to hormones, feeling defensive, and pushed until she blurted out something she would probably never say out loud under normal circumstances.

As for Rebecca failing as a mother in the depths of grief, all I can say is give her a break. I have a friend going through this and no one should judge how well someone handles the overwhelming task of now having to take care of everything and everyone, while having to move through your own devastation.

Maybe because I am not a mother, but I did not interpret Rebecca's silence as worry or concern.  Her silence reminded me too much of my mother when she is holding in her opinion.  The silence only makes it worse because it increases the tension and makes you the daughter feel like you did/are doing something wrong.  I am probably projecting my own feelings onto Kate in this situation.  While it was not the time nor the place for a conversation, Rebecca could have handled herself better in the car. 

 

As to the teenage stuff, I probably should clarify what I mean by incapable.  I don't fault her for not picking up on teenage Kate's signals because of her own overwhelming grief.  Everyone in the family was hurting and it is easy not to see the pain others are feeling when you are dealing with the same grief.  I have been that low before and I don't know how anyone could function as a mother at the same time.    Randall was trying to clue Rebecca in on what was happening, but she really was not capable at the moment to do anything about it. 

[DearEvette]

You know, I don't think it is at all unrealistic for Randall to continue to have some issues related to his childhood, his role as an adopted child, and especially of a black adopted child in a white family into his 30s and 40s.  I think it has been clearly established that his wound-tight personality, his perfectionism, his need to please -- all stem from his childhood and to some extent how he feels as an adoptee. 

People have all sorts of emotional triggers that last with them for years.  Not all traumas have to be violent or physical to be traumatic.  They just have to be something that caused some real and deep emotional distress and i think the show has done a good job of showcasing a lot of Randall's distress.  Think about it... how many times has the show ever shown young Randall to be really  comfortable in his skin?  Honestly, the scene at his black BFFs house and when he was on the visit t Howard were some of the few times we've seen Randall looking his most carefree.  Most of the time he is tense.  It is also hard for something to heal when it keeps getting picked at.  In S1 when he invited the Kevin's terrible theatre actress GF to Thanksgiving, her first comment to him was 'You're the adopted one." or something like that. 

I have my issues with all the Big Three at various times but I do have to give the show credit for crafting three distinct characters that feel logical in their characterization even when I might not like them sometimes or be exasperated at them from time to time.

[methodwriter85]

27 minutes ago, Violetgoblin6 said:

Yeah, I bet Randall goes about gentrification of the entire North Philadelphia neighborhood. He becomes councilman and basically transforms the entire place into nirvana. 

I joked in one thread that I think that it'd be funny if Randall accidentally gentrifies William's neighborhood, and it looks like they could actually be going there.

I hope he does start a Big Three construction business just as a big "fuck you" to Kate.

Edited October 3, 2018 by methodwriter85

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Aww fer geez. We're gonna get Randall moving the fam so he can run for councilman or mayor or whatever to get shit done.

Yes, that was my first thought. Let's hope not.

[WhosThatGirl]

57 minutes ago, Driad said:

If Randall and Beth had had a son, and Randall had told Kate et al. that he wanted to name the boy Jack, I wonder how they would react.  I can imagine Kate getting very angry about it.

Randall was planning to name his child Jack actually. The episode last season when they had Tess and she turned out to be a girl he told Rebecca they didn’t have a girls name.

[Dreamboat Annie]

8 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

16 hours ago, Dreamboat Annie said:

I daresay I do believe the beautiful daughter of William's friend has caught Randall's eye.  Do I smell trouble in the Randall and Beth paradise?  Not only that, but I think she's challenged him.  What - he says?  I'm not one of you?  Well, now that I've heard I'm not passing down any of Jack, I'm setting out to prove I am one of you.  As if Deja wasn't enough of a challenge.  Memo to Randall - get your butt back into that job with that nice corner office with those spectacular views!

That wasn’t the daughter of William’s friend. That WAS William’s friend and her daughter is Skye. The one Deja was introduced to. She just didn’t look like she aged much.

Thank you.  Yes, I realized that later when reading the comments here.  What threw me off (in addition to the many distractions at our house while watching lol) was that with William's black hair and beard, I thought it was closer to the time that he dropped baby Randall off.  I won't edit my original post, but I will say now:  I daresay I do believe William's beautiful friend has caught Randall's eye.  And I will also take the opportunity to say that I noticed several times in this episode how Randall struggles to be "one of them".  He seems frustrated in that regard and appears to have something to prove there - perhaps only to himself? - and it makes me think he's not going to back away from the challenge.  I think his mission to do so could get him into some trouble along the way.  It could also lead to him realizing he is accepted as "one of them", but he won't be satisfied until he achieves what I believe he's really seeking, which is self acceptance.