Finals, Training Camp and Social Media

[Kayce]

4 minutes ago, rl27rl said:

All you guys wanted cake, I wanted a milkshake! 

Steak and Shake...dark chocolate banana side by side shake...YUM!

[Law Mom]

11 hours ago, go4luca said:

I did a quick search on Meredith and this page turned up.  Not sure what to think about her maternity pictures on the floor wearing nothing but the U.S. flag.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.625900357433792&type=1&l=95e1fc4c83

I can't even. This picture is offensive on so many levels. Rolling around on the floor with your legs up in the air like a friggin toddler? Draping your naked body in our flag? Letting the flag drag on the floor? Disgusting.

[Muckypup61]

10 hours ago, Lily80 said:

What in the Sam hell is this shit? 

I will wrap myself in my patriotism!

[ElenaFR]

I like that Judy has some bite. Where was it during the entire season???  

And as a viewer, I get it, we don't see everything, but at least edit the show so that we understand your reasons for the decisions you are making.  Because of the edit, VK would not have made it to training camp. She was fluffy and fell out of her turn. These reasons alone have kept others from camp. Show some consistency. 

As for Tara, I saw a vet that looked emotionally exhausted and probably needed some help and not another kick from her bosses.  She has proven that she can do the job, help her find her mojo.

I liked Kash's "Sassy Sassy." 

[ByTor]

13 hours ago, go4luca said:

Weird that Kelli calls Tara a veteran and former team member.  Veteran and prior year team member are the same thing. The was Kelli worded it, it sounds like Tara was a former team member who is/was in the military."

[DancingBaptist]

I have a higher quality gif of Kashara’s “Sassy! Sassy!” I couldn’t post it because it was over .98MB.

[ByTor]

I have a feeling I'll be saying "shut up Kashara" more than once during this episode :)

[go4luca]

5 hours ago, Agent Gully said:

Tara truly seemed blindsided by her cut. I hope whatever she chooses to do next brings her much happiness.

I know I feel differently from many here (besides really liking Christina, lol) about V.K.  I think she handled her cut in a very mature way. The "I love you more" to Judy was very sweet. Much of the blame for any spoiled behaviors rests on the adults who have been around her and have sheltered her from corrections and harsh realities. She learned tonight that there are no guarantees in life and I saw she made no excuses and in fact tried to lessen the pain of Kelly and Judy. I know now that VK has a kind heart. If/when she tries out again and has internalized that discipline and hard work is the way to obtain your dreams, I will be cheering for her.

On a final note, I'm a bit ticked off at CMT for suddenly giving Brennan a bad edit just to make viewers wonder if she in fact will be the one cut. There is enough drama for viewers (and especially for those of us on this board) without that nonsense. 

Re: VK - that was the shocker for me and quite a sobering moment.

Re:  Brennan - just stop CMT.  Stop with all the trying to stir up drama.  

[go4luca]

4 hours ago, JENIPENNY said:

Not sure how I feel about seeing OUR FLAG on the ground; it should never touch the ground. The concept of the picture (nude pregnant woman draped under cloth) isn’t off-putting; it’s oft repeated especially in classical art and can be quite tasteful and beautiful.  Seeing the Stars and Stripes on that cloth WHILE it is on the floor is a real game changer though.  That’s just my two cents having served 20+ years in the military.

Do I think Meredith needs to be thrown in the clink or bring the outrage machine to life over it? Naw, absolutely not...but maybe a gentle reminder is in store especially since these talented women often participate in morale and welfare events at military installations.

That is exactly why I shared the pic & link. After viewing her segment last night, I was kind of gobsmacked to see her in several photos draped with the flag on the ground.  For all I know the link will end up being removed if word gets to Meredith this was shared.

I also don't think she needs to be thrown in the clink but it does illustrate just how highly visible these women are.  

Edited October 19, 2018 by go4luca

[jlc]

2 hours ago, MTTFan said:

Fiesty isn't the word I would use.  Bichy is more like it -- sorry -- they have been following social media the entire training camp and had to know that their judgment was VK was being discussed -- it doesn't take more than 15 minutes of observing weight gain, mistakes, and toxic behavior to realize that someone should have been cut long before now. 

No to mention, we really didn't even get 15 mins of watching them, but we sure got a LOT of Victoria sucking up all the camera time! Actual dance time was less than 1/2 of what we have seen in earlier seasons!

[jlc]

1 hour ago, Loves2Dance said:

Completely unprofessional. I normally love Judy, but this is...beyond her. 

And frankly, don't agree to have a TV show if you can't take the heat.

Since she didn't say sh** for 10 episodes this season, that statement is rude and peckish! This whole season sure has shown a different side of these two! Just when I was getting ready to say really nice things about her, I read this!

[Retired Dancer]

2 hours ago, Jazzmom said:

Love this...the editing is so bad that we really can’t hear or see what is going on but they seem to get peeved when we have our opinions by what we are “allowed” to witness. 

I am not sure why a couch is always brought up (lol) when they get a little mad, and we don’t go along with what we are seeing!  We do “hear” a lot on this page. Lol

I will take that challenge and help make decisions on cuts & who makes the team next year.  My decisions would not be biased.  I can fly in for auditions & be an assistant all summer, Texas heat and all.  You could throw in a few salon visits with Marshall to tame my hair in that “dry” heat.  Also, a web cam will do & I’ll send in my notes & stickers! I am not sure about early morning meetings though. 

hahaha count me in too!!! Let's cater some meals from My Fit Foods while we're in town!

Edited October 19, 2018 by Retired Dancer
highlight specific quote

[veronicamers]

1 hour ago, Jess14 said:

I don’t have an issue with Judy saying that there’s more that goes on that the viewers don’t see. That’s certainly true, but the “sitting on your couch” comment is childish  and kind of a “cut off your nose to spite your face” comment. People on the couch who the DCCs CHOOSE to air the show for can easily sit in their couch and use that remote to change the channel and watch something else. If enough people do so, their CMT gravy train can come to an end.

Yeah, throwing shade at the show's fans (essentially accusing us of being losers FOR WATCHING YOUR DANG SHOW as opposed to what...trying out for professional cheer squads ourselves?) is not cute. I wouldn't have expected such a reaction from Judy this late in the game. That defensiveness should have been worked out in the first couple of seasons of the show. Benefit of the doubt, she's just really stressed and hates team decisions being put under a public microscope like this. But that is not the watchers' fault. That's all on Kelli and CMT.

Edited October 19, 2018 by veronicamers

[PeachGal]

1 hour ago, Kayce said:

All I have to say is "GO JUDY"! 

Same here!  K&J still have to get a job done and they are having to work around what CMT decides to creatively edit.  Their job is to pay attention to viewers reactions, feed those flames, omit to create speculation, and K&J's job is to work around them.  K&J know these girls, and cutting someone you know is hard enough, but then to read thousands of faceless comments tearing these girls down would make the best of us go all momma bear.  You defend what and who you care about.

As far as VK, Kitty said she had been in the program for years.  I use to hire and fire in my job, and if someone had worked for me for years and they had a good work ethic, I definitely gave them more opportunity to prove/disprove themselves compared to an outsider.  When it comes to nepotism, you still have to make sure they're qualified, but rest assured, those candidates always get the most outside criticism even when they can run circles around everyone else.   VK has plenty of time to grow as a dancer and in maturity.   They gave her the opportunity, they observed, they didn't provide stickers where stickers weren't deserved, and CMT gave us what they wanted us to see and hear.

Edited October 19, 2018 by PeachGal
Grammar

[scorpio1031]

I think Judy is well aware of what could have been done differently in TC, and is being defensive about it.  Or she could be frustrated with Kelli and takes it out on everyone else, including the viewers.  However, I've never appreciated the whole you guys don't see what goes on behind the camera.  Are you saying that you are editing the show to give us a false impression?  Cause I assume that what I see on the show is just a small part of what is really happening - Malena isn't getting the dances, Tara is struggling, VK is annoying, etc.

I don't believe VK's kindness in the office.  I think there was an awareness of cameras in the room.

Malena reminds me of Auto Amy - too much desperation, moves to another state - quits good job to follow the dream she's had her whole life.  Cries a lot.  Thinks of the dances when she falls asleep, when she wakes up.  I was watching the bonus clip with the choreographer and it was quite obvious she should have been cut weeks ago.  She said it was just bumper cars cause they were running into each other, and I'm thinking - no, you're the one running into the others.

And I think is was very sweet of the vets to take Tara to IHOP after 7-8 hours of practice, and early mornings for a lot of them.  

Tasha was saying on the podcast that when you start TC, practice is a Mon - Fri thing, and then it goes to the weekends as well.  On a CMT night, something that might take 10 minutes ends up taking 45 minutes instead.  So when they said it looked like Brennan was losing steam or was possibly sick, I'm thinking - and whose fault is that.  And with taking so long to finalize the team, everything got so rushed at the end what with Meet the Team and the first game.  Charlotte should just give Kelli a deadline and remind her, you get 36 girls and that's it.  Or give her a criteria list - it's week 4, who can do this and who can't?  Start cutting.

[jlc]

11 minutes ago, PeachGal said:

Same here!  K&J still have to get a job done and they are having to work around what CMT decides to creatively edit.  Their job is to pay attention to viewers reactions, feed those flames, omit to create speculation, and K&J's job is to work around them.  K&J know these girls, and cutting someone you know is hard enough, but then to read thousands of faceless comments tearing these girls down would make the best of us go all momma bear.  You defend what and who you care about.

As far as VK, Kitty said she had been in the program for years.  I use to hire and fire in my job, and if someone had worked for me for years and they had a good work ethic, I definitely gave them more opportunity to prove/disprove themselves compared to an outsider.  When it comes to nepotism, you still have to make sure they're qualified, but rest assured, those candidates always get the most outside criticism even when they can run circles around everyone else.   VK has plenty of time to grow as a dancer and in maturity.   They gave her the opportunity, they observed, they didn't provide stickers where stickers weren't deserved, and CMT gave us what they wanted us to see and hear.

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by jlc

[hannahbanana]

12 hours ago, Hayleys Comet said:

Besides the mediocre physical and dancing aspect of both girls, what is really glaring is that neither Victoria nor Dayton were mentally, emotionally or mature enough to be DCC this year.  Both were so immature for their ages, there was no way they could be a part of this squad.  It was hard to watch them speak and perform. Victoria, very sluggish and heavy looking.  Dayton danced as if she was apologizing with every move.  Then listening to them speak.  Victoria, always making excuses, and perhaps lying, and Dayton speaking like a mouse.  I’m certain they both can gain dance skills in the future, but I wonder if they will ever be mature enough to make this team. 

I would call a lot of VK's behaviour immature (i.e., some of her comments, flopping around, etc.), but not Dayton's. I don't call dancing timidly or speaking softly immature. Shy and overly nervous, maybe, but not immature. I think if Dayton had been given more time & made the team she would have flown under the radar and been fine. Not the best DCC, but not the worst either. Victoria, I think, would have been too unpredictable. Fine some days, but a hot mess others.

[go4luca]

Marshall brings so much to this show.  I will forever laugh over "Gapmouth".  :D

[Jess14]

18 minutes ago, KnyghtRyder said:

?? ? You took the words right out of my brain.

I like Judy. Both her and Kelli. I really do. And I get that she was probably feeling attacked and frustrated. I probably wouldn’t feel much differently than she does in her place. Especially after an emotionally taxing night.

Yeah, agreed. I don’t think Judy has any negative feelings for the viewers and was just frustrated, but this goes back to the whole “did you think about that before you said it?” advice. It’s just as relevant to social media as anything else. Lord knows there are times when I’m frustrated bc my clients think they know how to run a case and form a legal strategy better than the legal team that they hired, but you have to be professional. If you don’t want to have to defend the choices made on the show, then don’t have a show or don’t have a Q&A on social media....or if it’s getting repetitive, very easy to just say “ok, enough for tonight, see you next week.” 

[Kayce]

7 minutes ago, go4luca said:

Marshall brings so much to this show.  I will forever laugh over "Gapmouth".  :D

Marshall has been one of the saving graces for the show this season!!! :) 

[PBSLover]

10 hours ago, Law Mom said:

t appears that the claims from so-called insiders that Tara was cut for weight and Victoria was cut for lying were dead wrong.

Just because it wasn’t shown on the episode doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

[Jennv]

I was very disappointed in the way Kelli addressed VK's cut. She told her she would make the team if they had more than 36 spots and I think that is BS that she was just spewing to make VK feel good. Did she not see the girls gut jiggling during the kickline? She can't go one the field like that and Kelli damn well knows that. YOU ARE NOT DOING HER A FAVOR BY CODDLING HER! She needs the brutal truth, or she will show up next year with the exact same problems

[go4luca]

CMT has these on their IG Live.  I have these posted temporarily so the vids will eventually go poof in this post.

Who is speaking to VK in this scene?  The one saying she was meant to be a DCC.  I can't place who's voice that is.

 

Tara's "Tomorrow?" will forever kill me.

[hannahbanana]

32 minutes ago, go4luca said:

CMT has these on their IG Live.  I have these posted temporarily so the vids will eventually go poof in this post.

Who is speaking to VK in this scene?  The one saying she was meant to be a DCC.  I can't place who's voice that is.

 

Tara's "Tomorrow?" will forever kill me.

Kashara?

Whose head is that bopping up & down (&why???) in Tara's clip?

Edited October 19, 2018 by hannahbanana

[PBSLover]

So we don’t see Kelli calling the doctor to follow-up with regarding Victoria’s appointment, which Victoria stated she went to and doc says she stood him up. One wonders if Kelli ever discussed it with her when she found out. Then her weight, her inability to stay in her spot, her immaturity.  I believe Victoria knew the longer training camp went on that she might not make the team. We saw five office visits. I bet there were more. And the last few episodes were heavily edited. And lastly, there is no way that K&J didn’t know that Victoria was causing trouble in the locker room. Judy saying the vets were on her side. Okay, sure. Whatever. I am so not buying it. 

I kind of feel like a lot of people on this board. Not sure how much I am enjoying this show any longer.

Edited October 19, 2018 by PBSLover

[Jess14]

3 minutes ago, hannahbanana said:

Kashara?

Who's head is that bopping up & down (&why???) in Tara's clip?

Yeah, sounds like Kashara to me as well.

[Omeletsmom]

15 hours ago, booptroop said:

Anyone else yelling at their TV saying "DO IT KELL, DO IT!!" or am i the only weirdo?

That is LITERALLY what I yelled at the TV when they cut to commercial!

[Kate2006]

I'll probably get flamed for this but it was tough watching  VK's cut, although I think she lasted too long.  Her not wanting to go home and tell her mom says volumes about the pressure she was under from home to make the team. I really think a year from now when she makes the team (because we all know she will come back and make the team at some point), she will reflect that getting cut was the best thing that could have happened to her. It will teach her humility and empathy for future TCC's who are going through the process. I really think she will mature from that experience and learn that nepotism doesn't always work out in your favor. 

[jlc]

13 minutes ago, Kate2006 said:

I really think she will mature from that experience and learn that nepotism doesn't always work out in your favor. 

Sorry, but I don't give her that much credit. She will come back expecting to make the team because Aunt Kelli told her there is a uniform for you and you will do great things (point, pro bowl, all star) on this team.

[Lily80]

11 hours ago, hannahbanana said:

Judy is getting feisty ?

Dang! Judy getting salty. I get it. People are obnoxious. But that's the nature of being on TV. You're going to get a million opinions.

[SmpIsimon]

Judy is showing her true colors. What a bitch.  If it weren’t for the viewers, there’d be no show  

I now understand how Cassie came to be such a disgusting human being. 

[TexasBorn]

55 minutes ago, Jennv said:

I was very disappointed in the way Kelli addressed VK's cut. She told her she would make the team if they had more than 36 spots and I think that is BS that she was just spewing to make VK feel good. Did she not see the girls gut jiggling during the kickline? She can't go one the field like that and Kelli damn well knows that. YOU ARE NOT DOING HER A FAVOR BY CODDLING HER! She needs the brutal truth, or she will show up next year with the exact same problems

I agree 100%. Kelli sounded like an elementary school teacher trying to use positive reinforcement because her student is prone to dramatic rolling on the ground tantrums. Why is EVERYONE walking on eggshells around this kid (VK)? So BIZARRE?! 

[Slate]

I see the Star swimsuit edition is now for sale. Does anyone see an option to buy it digitally? I would love to see it but without the cost of shipping!

[TexasBorn]

Is next week the finale? And who gets cut next? Is it Melana and Taylor J?

[go4luca]

1 minute ago, TexasBorn said:

Is next week the finale? And who gets cut next? Is it Melana and Taylor J?

Yes, next week is the finale.  Lily and Malena get cut.

[TexasBorn]

3 minutes ago, go4luca said:

Yes, next week is the finale.  Lily and Malena get cut.

Oooh OK. Thanks.

[cardsfan720]

On 10/18/2018 at 1:48 PM, nittanyvolleyball said:

I guess I'm in the minority, but Jenn is one of my favorites. Nothing compares to the pop that Holly Arielle had at point, but Jenn was really good. Plus she looks awesome pregnant.

I barely RECOGNIZED her!

[DFWGina]

2 hours ago, Retired Dancer said:

hahaha count me in too!!! Let's cater some meals from My Fit Foods while we're in town!

They all closed down so you might have to find food elsewhere :-(

[SanDiegoGal]

15 hours ago, go4luca said:

I can't help dissecting this twitter exchange:

1. The original tweet from "Grace" (the VK fan) was posted 55 minutes prior to Judy's reply. In that entire 55 minutes, her pro-VK tweet garnered one like. Yep, in 55 minutes, only one person agreed with the pro-VK tweet. And before anyone claims that other people may not have seen it, let's keep in mind that it was tagged to the DCC forum and Judy saw it to reply. But nobody else liked it. Looks like the rest of the planet thought VK needed to go!

2. I think Judy's comment is actually to defend the veterans, saying "others can't take the blame," meaning that VK is the only one to blame for her cut.

So glad that VK Not Making the Team is over. Now, we get one episode of DCC Making the Team!

[TexasBorn]

12 minutes ago, SanDiegoGal said:

I can't help dissecting this twitter exchange:

1. The original tweet from "Grace" (the VK fan) was posted 55 minutes prior to Judy's reply. In that entire 55 minutes, her pro-VK tweet garnered one like. Yep, in 55 minutes, only one person agreed with the pro-VK tweet. And before anyone claims that other people may not have seen it, let's keep in mind that it was tagged to the DCC forum and Judy saw it to reply. But nobody else liked it. Looks like the rest of the planet thought VK needed to go!

2. I think Judy's comment is actually to defend the veterans, saying "others can't take the blame," meaning that VK is the only one to blame for her cut.

So glad that VK Not Making the Team is over. Now, we get one episode of DCC Making the Team!

Amen hallelujah! 

[hannahbanana]

38 minutes ago, SanDiegoGal said:

So glad that VK Not Making the Team is over. Now, we get one episode of DCC Making the Team!

We've seen so much of VK in all of the other episodes, I wouldn't be surprised if she shows up in 75% (at least) of the next episode in the form of flashbacks, what could have beens, & "I'm so sad I didn't make it this year, but I'm already preparing for next year" talking heads. ???

[KoKo]

On 10/18/2018 at 3:11 PM, scorpio1031 said:

I'm waiting to see what Tess and Tasha say on the podcast today about if this is their last year or not.

I like Tess, but Tasha is one of my favorites!  I hope she stays at least for one more year!!! 

[DFWBelle]

Someone told me to "watch the show, it will change your perspective of the VK situation" months ago. Now that I've watched the whole thing, the cut has been broadcast, my opinion is no different. If I were Judy, Shelly, or Jinelle I would feel uncomfortable in many ways about how Kelly treated Victoria and feel undermined as an employee. While Victoria is a good dancer in many styles and did improve in the DCC style as training camp went on, she was by no means top 36 and should not have made training camp based on her audition (i.e. falling out of turns multiple times). The moment Victoria blew off Jinelle and had that horrendous encounter with her in the office she should have been excused from training camp. Others have been given the boot for much less, Kendall from not going to extra sessions with mentor Melissa, etc. For Victoria's weight, attitude towards Jinelle, and locker room toxicity to not be addressed in her cut is wrong when you look at how harshly Kelly spoke to Dayton and Kristen this summer. When Victoria enters the real world she's in trouble because adults have been doing a serious disservice to her by coddling her. 

[hannahbanana]

7 hours ago, MTTFan said:

Fiesty isn't the word I would use.  Bichy is more like it 

 

6 hours ago, Jazzmom said:

I am not sure why a couch is always brought up (lol) when they get a little mad, and we don’t go along with what we are seeing!

 

5 hours ago, Loves2Dance said:

Completely unprofessional. I normally love Judy, but this is...beyond her. 

 

5 hours ago, Jess14 said:

I don’t have an issue with Judy saying that there’s more that goes on that the viewers don’t see. That’s certainly true, but the “sitting on your couch” comment is childish  and kind of a “cut off your nose to spite your face” comment. 

 

5 hours ago, ElenaFR said:

I like that Judy has some bite. Where was it during the entire season???  

 

4 hours ago, jlc said:

Since she didn't say sh** for 10 episodes this season, that statement is rude and peckish! 

 

4 hours ago, veronicamers said:

Yeah, throwing shade at the show's fans ... is not cute. I wouldn't have expected such a reaction from Judy this late in the game.

 

 

4 hours ago, scorpio1031 said:

I think Judy is well aware of what could have been done differently in TC, and is being defensive about it.  Or she could be frustrated with Kelli and takes it out on everyone else, including the viewers. 

 

4 hours ago, KnyghtRyder said:

I like Judy. Both her and Kelli. I really do. And I get that she was probably feeling attacked and frustrated. I probably wouldn’t feel much differently than she does in her place. Especially after an emotionally taxing night.

But seriously man, its a show about a professional cheerleading team. Exactly where else DOES one watch their TV? Bed? Toilet? Of course I’m on my damn couch. When people say this, it is meant to be an insult. 

 

3 hours ago, Jess14 said:

Yeah, agreed. I don’t think Judy has any negative feelings for the viewers and was just frustrated, but this goes back to the whole “did you think about that before you said it?” advice. It’s just as relevant to social media as anything else. 

 

2 hours ago, Lily80 said:

Dang! Judy getting salty. I get it. People are obnoxious. But that's the nature of being on TV. You're going to get a million opinions.

 

Well, it looks like she has deleted the "couch" comment/post.

I think she is just really frustrated/stressed with how this training camp went. I think if it had been HER choice, certain people would have been gone a lot sooner. Instead, she had the stress of dealing with Kelli being in denial all season & then catching flack on twitter about it, too, like it was all her fault (when I think she really felt like her hands were tied). I think it all just blew up for her last night.

Edited October 19, 2018 by hannahbanana
Trying to make post shorter. LoL

[RedheadZombie]

19 hours ago, go4luca said:

Speaking of gratuitous boob shot...

 

I would call that a gratuitous implant shot.

[go4luca]

8 minutes ago, hannahbanana said:

Well, it looks like she has deleted the "couch" comment/post.

I think she is just really frustrated/stressed with how this training camp went. I think if it had been HER choice, certain people would have been gone a lot sooner. Instead, she had the stress of dealing with Kelli being in denial all season & then catching flack on twitter about it, too, like it was all her fault (when I think she really felt like her hands were tied). I think it all just blew up for her last night.

 

Wow.  If there was an award for a quote fest, I'd give it to you.

Weird that Judy removed that post.  To be honest, in light of previous twitter comments, I was a bit surprised both she and Kelli agreed to do a live tweet on this particular episode.

Wonder what's in store for the live tweet finale episode.

Edited October 19, 2018 by go4luca
I really hate the formatting this board does some times.

[hannahbanana]

10 minutes ago, go4luca said:

Wow.  If there was an award for a quote fest, I'd give it to you.

Weird that Judy removed that post.  To be honest, in light of previous twitter comments, I was a bit surprised both she and Kelli agreed to do a live tweet on this particular episode.

Wonder what's in store for the live tweet finale episode.

I wonder how much they "agreed" & how much they were told they had to do it. I haven't been following what is being said on twitter, but I can't imagine it's pretty. If I was them, I would just want to put my head under the covers, let the fiasco finish airing, & hope for better next year (by hopefully not doing the same dumb things).

[ShellyB]

3 hours ago, hannahbanana said:

Kashara?

Whose head is that bopping up & down (&why???) in Tara's clip?

It’s Lauren’s voice and a gif of someone crying that was added to the clip

[go4luca]

15 minutes ago, ShellyB said:

It’s Lauren’s voice and a gif of someone crying that was added to the clip

Thank you for clarifying.

[jlc]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoGal said:

I think Judy's comment is actually to defend the veterans, saying "others can't take the blame," meaning that VK is the only one to blame for her cut.

That is exactly what I thought. This was Victoria's fault, no one else's