S02.E09: Number Two

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[InsertWordHere]

I thought this episode would make me emotional, but I ended up not feeling anything.

I did like the UPS guy, who despite being threatened by Toby, showed an amazing level of empathy when he realized why Toby had been searching so hard for the package. You can see it click in his eyes when Toby tells him it was a baby bath. 

We now have the shipping warehouse guy and grocery store manager to go along with Garuda the lighting guy and the postal worker from last season. Apparently the entire family has these moments, not just Randall. I can’t wait until another random worker just going about their day is the person who realizes Kevin has an addiction and gets him to seek help. The hotel housekeeper last week was so close. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh, Toby. You don't just stick that notepad in a drawer so that Kate will inevitably find it later. You managed to throw the shower curtain straight into the dumpster, yet you left the notepad with questions for the obstetrician in a kitchen drawer.

Ugh, Toby's "I'm a large and powerful man" speech was so gross regardless of his good intentions. There is no need to be a dick to a guy who is just trying to do his job. Instead of being a bossy jerk with vague "I'm trying to protect someone" and threats of "I don't know how much longer I can remain calm," he could have just explained the situation in ONE sentence. "My fiancé just miscarried a few hours ago and this package is a baby bath which will obviously upset her if it shows up on our doorstep so I'd really appreciate it if you could help me prevent that from happening."

[debraran]

2 hours ago, dlyn said:

It’s always funny how people can watch the same scene and see it so differently. I saw it as more of a “If Jack loves her this much, maybe she isn’t so bad after all,” look, especially since it followed up the hospital talk where Kate and Rebecca had a little bit of a breakthrough. 

I saw that too but she always saw her parents love each other in many ways. It wasn't like that was a new thing, someone who was never demonstrative. Maybe more that it was serious but again, they did talk to Kevin last week about not being able to play, "even at Pitt" as he begged. He knew that as they left and Jack had given him his necklace.  I thought Kevin's show was much more in depth than Kate's. Again it was about her singing, hiding things from Mom, being a surly teen, but what were his aspirations beyond singing? What did she like to do, hobbies, friends, etc.

Edited November 22, 2017 by debraran

[debraran]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

Wow, Rebecca sure is getting a hard time about those onions.  Yes, she was wrong to yell like that.  But, she was grieving Kyle and she still had the hormones going on, plus I'm sure there was a severe lack of sleep happening.

I remember those hormones when I was carrying twins. My husband and I laugh at a conversation I never would have had with a cop that was so "not me". I think that the onions were also in a way, Kyle, "they are coming home with me, I'm not leaving without them, they are mine"  In real life, only a cold hearted person wouldn't have given her some especially with 3 babies or a manager wouldn't have looked for some, so I just thought it had other meaning than she wanted to make Jack a good meal. It was after that, they talked.

So odd how you have a full term baby, don't hold it, take it home, I never understood that. A Catholic, a priest told me that years ago, the baby had to take a breath after birth to be buried. I was aghast and hope that's not true since the respect of the unborn they always talk about doesn't jive with that. I think it's different now because I see a change in people I've known who had late miscarriages or stillborn vs 20 years ago.

Edited November 22, 2017 by debraran

[Mrs. DuRona]

8 hours ago, balmz said:

also how did the lady not see that rebecca had grabbed them but then went to her kids?

Grocery stores are brutal, man.  If there's only one left of anything and you don't take it, you give up all rights to said object.  Grocery street rules.

[sigmaforce86]

7 hours ago, voiceover said:

Wow, Kate.  Stronger than the men around her.  It took me until now to figure that out.

Toby was looking for the tub, to channel *his* pain.  Kate didn’t fall apart at the shower curtain; she calmly left the gig; she pushed the plate away.
 

I was cringing when she started to fill the plate; to me it was like watching Kevin and his drug fueled opening scene again just a different drug.  But instead of then seeing Kate eat and cry (as expected) she pushed that plate away which I thought was wonderful.

Show got me again - I always think it's not a crying show, there won't be THAT scene this week, this is good but not overly emotional then Wham....there it is anyway.  This time, of course, it was Rebecca showing up at Kate's.  The thought that she must have jumped on a plane the second Kate hung up on her, the look on her face, Kate just melting - really well done too.

I think young Kate is relateable - she's a teen girl with all the normal teen girl hormone stuff, she loves her family but she's in a house with two "star" siblings, one sports and one academics.  Her passion happens to be her mothers talent and her mother has proven to be overbearing about that.  So she's the quiet one because she doesn't really have the star qualities her brothers have and the talent she does have and wants to learn more about she doesn't want her mothers "help" with .

My take on Kate watching the hug (since everyone seemed to see it differently) was Kate was just seeing that her parents still love and support each other and that parents hide feelings too - in front of Kevin it was this will be fine you'll heal soon, in a moment alone it was crap that was scary I'm worried about my kid.  Also I thought it might be about Jack and his alcoholism but we were missing a scene (like how Kevin witnessed Jack praying) - Rebecca had kicked Jack out not that long ago, he's back but obviously the AA meetings aren't a secret to the kids.  Kate may have worried about her parents marriage and what are their "real" feelings and seeing that hug showed her they really are back together and in love not just doing it for the kids like some parents do.  But if that's what they were trying to convey then I feel like the missed a scene in between that might have made that idea more clear (Jack going to a meeting while Kate looks concerned, Jack coming home and Rebecca smells his breath or something) 

[Mrs. DuRona]

3 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

8 hours ago, ctmd said:

Randall has always been a well-developed character (bordering on "magical Negro" trope, since he seems to just touch everyone's lives in wonderful ways, all full of wise tales from his past)

I am glad I am not the only one who felt like Randall is bordering on the "magical Negro", I loved his character the first season but he is grating on me lately.

See, I think he *tries* to be that guy, but fails every time.  So far his long, touching speeches with Deja have missed the mark every time.  William was the "Magical Negro" trope, for sure.  Not Randall.  He's a huge socially awkward goober who thinks he can touch everyone's lives.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

We now have the shipping warehouse guy and grocery store manager to go along with Garuda the lighting guy and the postal worker from last season. Apparently the entire family has these moments, not just Randall. I can’t wait until another random worker just going about their day is the person who realizes Kevin has an addiction and gets him to seek help. The hotel housekeeper last week was so close. 

Lol, so very true.  I get that when we are grieving or worried we are likely to overreact to rudeness out in the world, but we don't lose all sense of right and wrong, but first there should be rudeness. We don't threaten guys at the distribution center who are just sticking to the rules of their job and we don't tell some poor woman in the grocery store that those are our onions because we looked at them. 

If I had been the onion lady, I would have told Rebecca, "Meet me outside and I'll give you one, doofus."  Rebecca only needed half an onion for her recipe.  The whole scene reminded me of Rebecca getting stuff to make a cake in the liquor store and her insane cranberry sauce mixture.  Don't mess with that woman when she's cooking!

25 minutes ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

Grocery stores are brutal, man

You guys are cracking me up!  I've never been so grateful to live in the Midwest where we are abundant in our foodstuffs (and obesity numbers.)  I hate to admit it, but I actually teared up when I walked into Kroger yesterday because the produce department had doubled their usual stock for the holiday and it was two thousand square feet of  fabulous, colorful food. Were there onions?  Purple onions, snow white onions, golden brown onions, Vidalia onions, two or three mysterious types of onion,  all either bagged or in singles.

Overall I really liked the episode and found Toby quite handsome at times. He's the baby's father, Kate! Be nicer.

[Conotocarious]

Having had a miscarriage myself (and my sister had two) I found the actual miscarriage scene was more a TV miscarriage and not so much real life. I’m sure everyone’s experience is different but I never had any sharp pains and then boom it’s gone. I was 10 weeks it was like a mini labor and it took a while to actually start. It’s not over quickly if you pass it naturally (I ended up having a D&C but I was miscarrying for nearly a full day before the procedure). So I didn’t think Kate would be running out to sing 12 hours after. She didn’t have a D&C and unless she had been spotting for days or something I find it very unlikely it just happened in the shower. That’s not how they work. I thought this show strove for more realism that that. Took me straight out of it.

[Haleth]

A Very Special Thanksgiving episode for sure.  Nothing says "happy holidays" like a miscarriage.

How crappy was that onion lady that she didn't think to split the onions with Rebecca?  I would have bought the bag then given the frazzled mom of 3 infants half of them.

TeenKate watching Jack and Rebecca hug-- I read that as Kate seeing that the brave face her parents were putting on was a facade.  Bottle up that pain.  Grown up Kate does.

I agree that we didn't learn anything new about Kate and even though I sympathize with her for losing the baby I still don't care for her much.  Or Toby.  (Don't threaten the postal worker, dude.)

6 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Is the idea that the shower curtain rod was unable to support Kate's weight, and so she fell, and that fall caused the miscarriage? If so, I wish they hadn't gone there. Couldn't she just have a normal miscarriage?

She doubled over in pain and grabbed the curtain while doing so.  It wasn't the fall, she was already miscarrying.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Haleth

[Duckie30ca]

Unpopular opinion...

 

But this ep made me like Toby and hate Toby. I think the actor did a great job and he and Chrissy Metz did a fantastic job showing how a couple in a miscarriage tends to grieve in a parallel way. They are tiptoeing around each other and don't want to upset the other.  That was realistic to me. 

 

BUT - when he broke out the "this happened to me too" I immediately noped because I VIVIDLY remember having that conversation with Mr Duckie a few months after my third miscarriage and SCREAMING about how it wasn't HIS body betraying him. I acknowledge it was his baby too but it is just not something a man can understand. Toby has grief. I get that. I wish HE had someone else he could talk to...a guy friend or whatever because at 12 hrs post-miscarriage it's kinda all about Kate right now.

 

But again...I could just be too close to the issue  

 

Anyway...I loved the small moment between him and the UPS guy. 

 

OH and I've had that breakdown moment with my mom both post kids and post m/c so I BAWLED when I realized it was Rebecca at the door. They both killed that moment. 

[albinerhawk]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Oh, Toby. You don't just stick that notepad in a drawer so that Kate will inevitably find it later. You managed to throw the shower curtain straight into the dumpster, yet you left the notepad with questions for the obstetrician in a kitchen drawer.

Ugh, Toby's "I'm a large and powerful man" speech was so gross regardless of his good intentions. There is no need to be a dick to a guy who is just trying to do his job. Instead of being a bossy jerk with vague "I'm trying to protect someone" and threats of "I don't know how much longer I can remain calm," he could have just explained the situation in ONE sentence. "My fiancé just miscarried a few hours ago and this package is a baby bath which will obviously upset her if it shows up on our doorstep so I'd really appreciate it if you could help me prevent that from happening."

When I watched that scene, I thought Toby was tossing the notepad in one of those trash cans that are hidden behind the cabinetry and pulled out like a drawer.

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Is the idea that the shower curtain rod was unable to support Kate's weight, and so she fell, and that fall caused the miscarriage? If so, I wish they hadn't gone there. Couldn't she just have a normal miscarriage?

I thought she had a pain, fell down from that and grabbed the shower rod to catch herself.

[himela]

9 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

But the one silver lining of the whole tragedy was Kate and Rebecca coming together. Finally. 

Because Rebecca showed Kate she "forgives" her for losing the baby. Kate is scared that her age and weight caused her to lose the baby and this is not at all wrong. Rebecca only forgave Kate because she herself had to forgive herself to move on. Rebecca was scared that long walk she had was the reason she lost one baby and nobody can say it wasn't. But she had to convince herself it was not her fault in order to go on with her life. I think that if Rebecca had not gone through something that similar she would not have been able to forgive Kate for losing the baby. My mom doesn't forgive me for being overweight and not social like she is. Rebecca only gave Kate a pass because she had given herself a pass for the same matter. That's my take on the situation

[ShadowFacts]

42 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

If I had been the onion lady, I would have told Rebecca, "Meet me outside and I'll give you one, doofus."

Thank you for my laugh for the day.  I will now happily chop my onions for my stuffing. 

[himela]

10 hours ago, chaifan said:

 

I don't think we got a lot of background on Kate.  Nothing that would really explain her being the miserable adult that she is. 

Her being judged her whole life cause of her weight, trying really hard to not disappoint a mother who can't accept her for who she is and losing the only person who accepted and loved her for who she is are enough for me.

Edited November 22, 2017 by himela

[absnow54]

Okay, so the dog peed on the floor, and instead of grabbing paper towels to clean the carpet, Kate uses them to wipe the dog? What the hell was that?

[Jillybean]

I appreciated that adult Kate and Rebecca had a nice moment, but the rest of the episode left me disappointed. I expected a deep-dive into Kate's past -- similar to "Number One" with Kevin --  that would help us, the viewers, understand why Kate is the way she is in the present. That didn't happen, and I'm not sure why one main character would be given this treatment and not the other.  For me, the miscarriage storyline was tied up in a much-too-neat bow by the end of the episode, where after one talk with her mom and another with Toby, Kate had made her peace with what happened (the next day?) and already decided to try again. This didn't ring true for me.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, Kate and Toby fished their shower curtain out of the dumpster and hung it back up, which is all kinds of ewwwww.

In "Number One," we saw Kate calling Kevin before Toby did. In "Number Two," Toby called before Kate did.

Toby kept repeating that he is "a large and powerful man."  He is only one of those things. His grand gestures just make me roll my eyes. It would have been easy to simply intercept that package at home or have it routed elsewhere. But that wouldn't have given us a Toby Grand Gesture.

The actress who plays teen Kate resembles Chrissy Metz in terms of facial features; however, she is not at all overweight. So Kate is shown to be a bit chubby as a child, normal weight as a teen, and morbidly obese as an adult. Presumably all of Kate's shit is tied in to Jack's death, and since the showrunners are determined to string out that mystery, we don't get the opportunity to learn what exactly is at the root of present-day Kate's emotional issues. 

Next week's "Number Three" appears to focus Randall's story around Deja, which is disappointing. I want the focus to be on Randall himself. Preferably, S1 Randall, who was a lot more interesting than S2 Randall.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Jillybean

[SunnyBeBe]

48 minutes ago, Haleth said:

A Very Special Thanksgiving episode for sure.  Nothing says "happy holidays" like a miscarriage.

How crappy was that onion lady that she didn't think to split the onions with Rebecca?  I would have bought the bag then given the frazzled mom of 3 infants half of them.

TeenKate watching Jack and Rebecca hug-- I read that as Kate seeing that the brave face her parents were putting on was a facade.  Bottle up that pain.  Grown up Kate does.

I agree that we didn't learn anything new about Kate and even though I sympathize with her for losing the baby I still don't care for her much.  Or Toby.  (Don't threaten the postal worker, dude.)

She doubled over in pain and grabbed the curtain while doing so.  It wasn't the fall, she was already miscarrying.

That's how I took it too.  It looked like the smallest shower curtain rod that I've ever seen though.  So flimsy. But, it seemed to me the pain hit, then she grabbed the curtain.  There was no fall that I noticed. 

[Jillybean]

30 minutes ago, albinerhawk said:

When I watched that scene, I thought Toby was tossing the notepad in one of those trash cans that are hidden behind the cabinetry and pulled out like a drawer.

Yes, he threw the notepad in the trash.

[Neurochick]

On 11/21/2017 at 9:33 PM, Katy M said:

yeah, I totally get that, but I dont' understand why it ended up in the Kate-focused episode.  

Because Rebecca had recently spoken to Kate about how she wished she could hug HER, but felt she could not.

 

16 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

See, I think he *tries* to be that guy, but fails every time.  So far his long, touching speeches with Deja have missed the mark every time.  William was the "Magical Negro" trope, for sure.  Not Randall.  He's a huge socially awkward goober who thinks he can touch everyone's lives.

I never felt that Randall was a "Magical Negro."  I feel a "MN" character is what Will Smith played in Bagger Vance; it's a character who has no history, no past, no future, his only purpose is to help the white characters get to where the need to go.  

I also don't agree that William was a "MN" because we, the audience learned about his life, his past, where he came from, as well.  I felt William was a fully fleshed out character.

[SueB]

@milner ... and others with much, much, worse or similar losses as Kate - thanks for sharing, these kind of losses never go away.

Toby & delivery guy: Of course explaining would have been easier but Toby wasn't all that rationale either and his personality was such that he was totally invested. And delivery guy could see this was a big deal so he broke the rules - I like little moments of humanity this show offers.

Purpose of Kate witnessing the hug: 
1) That couple share their grief and rely on each other - she witnessed an adult, very private moment and this is what in current day she wasn't doing.  More than anything, her willingness to see Toby's pain and offer support as well as bare her feelings of responsibility to him -- to me THIS is why Toby and Kate will be okay.  They are going to 'make it' IMO as a couple and this episode cemented it for me.  It was a terrible thing to happen for them, even with the odds against them, but rather than isolate herself, Kate opened up and she truly saw Toby's pain.  And Rebecca kept insisting that she "talk to Toby" in current day.  But the past event - where she saw Rebecca and Jack lean on each other - gave credibility to Rebecca's word.   
2) That Jack needed Rebecca. In the past, Kate has somewhat thought that it was she and her Dad as emotional partners.  But this was for Jack and Rebecca and she needed that little life lesson. I think it'll set up some of her response to Rebecca after Jack's death.

[Mrs Shibbles]

9 hours ago, elle said:

It appears that we are seeing the same day or days from different perspectives of all three of them. 

Yep, I agree, though I would not call these "bottle episodes" as they usually have only one or two main characters and one main location (the bottle).

Thinking the same things!  More thoughts - Were there more onions?  If so, why didn't the manager say so?   And we saw Rebecca dissolve into tears and crumple to the floor, what happened next?  It sounds as if she just got up and went home.

Hee, so true!  Happy Thanksgiving!

 

 

5 hours ago, dlyn said:

 

I think Chris, Chrissy, and Mandy all acted well tonight, but there were some sour notes in the writing that just didn’t do it for me. Toby threatening the delivery guy for one. And the onion scene. I can buy a post-natal and grieving Rebecca melting down because she didn’t have the onions she needed to make Jack’s perfect meal. But the confrontation with the shopper and manager just seemed odd. 

This! Why was the manager all like “calm down lady, you need to sit down... “ instead of, “let me get you some from the back”. Ugh.  

[wallofsound]

10 hours ago, ctmd said:

Toby, food, mom drama.

That’s about it in a nutshell, isn’t it??  She’s just not that interesting to me.  Plus she’s all quiet and barely reacts to things.  Just not entertaining to watch her.   And I hate the way she says “Tobe” constantly.   

Speaking of ‘Tobe’, it’s not that hard to intercept a package at your own house.  I do it constantly to hide things from my husband.   

I was happy for Kate and Rebecca that Rebecca just showed up, knowing Kate needed someone & that Kate was open and let herself be mothered, but I still don’t like either one of them.   They are probably my least favorite characters.   Well, the two of them and ‘Tobe’.    So, this episode didn’t have much going on for me.   Sorry to be so negative!!  I really do look forward to this show, although not nearly as much as last season.  

[llewis823]

6 hours ago, Marley said:

O yay Randall’s episode next week. Except not yay cause Randall is already too much the focus of so many episodes.

I was thinking the same thing. Other than where he was when Jack died, we pretty much know his childhood from all the other episodes where he was featured. (I do like Randall - just we did not have the background on Kevin and Kate that we do with Randall.

[Qoass]

Quote

Ugh, Toby's "I'm a large and powerful man" speech was so gross regardless of his good intentions. There is no need to be a dick to a guy who is just trying to do his job. Instead of being a bossy jerk with vague "I'm trying to protect someone" and threats of "I don't know how much longer I can remain calm," he could have just explained the situation in ONE sentence. "My fiancé just miscarried a few hours ago and this package is a baby bath which will obviously upset her if it shows up on our doorstep so I'd really appreciate it if you could help me prevent that from happening."

I am so gratified that many people did not find this charming. I can be described as a "gatekeeper" in one of my jobs and I get this all the time:  "It's my kid's birthday and I promised her." "I'm a vet just back from Iraq." "I'm undergoing chemo because I have cancer." Yes, I feel terrible for you but you know what? The person making low wages at the door is not the person who decides when to break the rules and making that person feel like an asshole for doing their job makes you an asshole.

[llewis823]

In the onion scene, why were Kevin & Kate the only babies in the cart? Why did Rebecca say did I ever tell you the story of when you and Kevin were about 6 weeks old?  If they adopted Randall and took him home from the hospital with them as they have shown they did in Season 1, why wasn't Randall in that cart too when they were 6 weeks old? Mistake in continuity of writing or did he get taken away from them around that time? I think it's just a mistake in writing myself.

[Granny58]

the onions were a metaphor for her unfair loss.  

So glad Toby told Kate what's what.  It's NOT all about you Kate.  

[llewis823]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

...and found Toby quite handsome at times.

Not sure if he has lost weight or maybe the little curly-cue thing is not as noticeable, or maybe it was just because he wasn't a giant goof-ball in last night's episode, but I did take note that Toby looked almost handsome last night too.

[dlyn]

12 minutes ago, llewis823 said:

In the onion scene, why were Kevin & Kate the only babies in the cart? Why did Rebecca say did I ever tell you the story of when you and Kevin were about 6 weeks old?  If they adopted Randall and took him home from the hospital with them as they have shown they did in Season 1, why wasn't Randall in that cart too when they were 6 weeks old? Mistake in continuity of writing or did he get taken away from them around that time? I think it's just a mistake in writing myself.

 

Randall was there, too. I don’t know if he was in front or in back of Kate and Kevin in the stroller, but they showed a cute brown baby for a split second. 

[Neurochick]

In the onion scene I did see baby Randall.

I didn't like the scene when "Tobe" went all, "I'm a large and powerful man" nonsense.  I get why he didn't just say what happened; who can say something like that to a friend, a stranger, anybody?  But the "large and powerful man" speech was too cartoonish for me.

[absnow54]

BUT - when he broke out the "this happened to me too" I immediately noped because I VIVIDLY remember having that conversation with Mr Duckie a few months after my third miscarriage and SCREAMING about how it wasn't HIS body betraying him. I acknowledge it was his baby too but it is just not something a man can understand. Toby has grief. I get that. I wish HE had someone else he could talk to...a guy friend or whatever because at 12 hrs post-miscarriage it's kinda all about Kate right now.

I agree so much. Yes, both parents are dealing with the grief of losing a child, but the man will never feel the burden of THEIR body failing during a miscarriage. Yes, Toby is hurting also, but there's a part of Kate's own pain and experience that he'll never understand.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Wow, I probably will get a lot of criticism for this post but I am getting tired of the way this show subliminally and overtly has Rebecca being the perfect mom. She says all the right things to Kate and to Randall. It sometimes seems like I am in a parenting class with an actor modeling proper parenting behavior. 

Rebecca says things about arms being open wide, I am the one who has to do it not you (I am paraphrasing), it goes on and on. Maybe others think Rebecca makes mistakes and is not so perfect, but when she is on her "mom" game for the most part she does not seem real. It is obvious her lines were written by a scriptwriter.  And Kate does not even appreciate the mom she has. 

Who had a mother like Rebecca? I sure didn't. 

I think it's because they're course correcting after what they did to Rebecca last season. I can't forget how much they made Rebecca look like the worst mom ever, at least compared to her husband in terms of parenting, last season. They really shit on her, gave Jack all the parenting moments, and left Rebecca to look like the controlling, uncaring mother who only loved Randall. They never gave Rebecca the speeches or the small details that made her look like a great mom. She hid things from her children, she had secrets, she wasn't as nice, but Jack was the one who got all of that while his kids adored him. This season is about them giving Rebecca those moments now while Jack sits on the sidelines. I wish they'd give Jack a few more flaws to parallel what they did to Rebecca in some way, but they needed to do this. They really went overboard with making Rebecca look bad last season, and I'm personally glad they finally decided to listen to the criticisms. 

So, it's not like she's the perfect mom, because she's not (as seen last season). She's made plenty of mistakes that we shouldn't forget about. But they're just simply giving her the parenting moments and speeches that Jack had all of last season, and I literally mean all of last season.

Plus, unfortunately this is still a TV show so we're getting the TV speech trope. 

6 hours ago, dlyn said:

I was kind of confused by this episode. I thought the promos leading up to this series were about learning about how their pasts have shaped their present, and I got that with Kevin last week, but I don’t think I learned anything new about teen Kate tonight. She liked to sing and had a rocky relationship with her mother. Okay. We already know all that. 

 

I think Chris, Chrissy, and Mandy all acted well tonight, but there were some sour notes in the writing that just didn’t do it for me. Toby threatening the delivery guy for one. And the onion scene. I can buy a post-natal and grieving Rebecca melting down because she didn’t have the onions she needed to make Jack’s perfect meal. But the confrontation with the shopper and manager just seemed odd. 

I think the issue here is that they're trying to do a trilogy with Kevin, Kate, and Randall that all take place in the exact same timeline (Sunday night through to Tuesday for the present day; unspecified night up until Friday night for the teens). So trying to fit in three stories that also deal with them as people is quite difficult. It worked with Kevin because the past centered around his injury, so it was easier to make a direct parallel to the present day, where he's spiraling through his addiction. Kate losing her baby doesn't really connect to Teen Kate, though I do think they tried with showing Kate's relationship with her mom in the past vs the present by the end. It's just harder for them to make that connection, unless they had made her teen storyline about her weight. Which I'm glad they didn't, by the way. And now they're going to have Randall's storyline next week and we know his Teen storyline will center around this college tour with Jack, so we'll see how they attempt to connect that to his present day storyline with Deja. 

I do get why the grocery store scene was off. I think it was the dialogue itself. It was too scripted. I think they needed to have it a little more messy, to reflect real life. It just felt too on the nose with it relating to Kyle. It had the right context and intentions, but the wrong dialogue.

[Aileen]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Is the idea that the shower curtain rod was unable to support Kate's weight, and so she fell, and that fall caused the miscarriage? If so, I wish they hadn't gone there. Couldn't she just have a normal miscarriage?

As for the Toby thing, the writers probably thought that showing him physically threaten a much smaller person for just wanting to do their job would be a great example of what a dreamboat he is - but I could have done without it. Carl should have just called security.

No, they showed what happened in a flash back. She put her hand against the wall, then doubled over in pain, grabbed the curtain, and went down. The miscarriage was happening before she hit the ground.

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I agree so much. Yes, both parents are dealing with the grief of losing a child, but the man will never feel the burden of THEIR body failing during a miscarriage. Yes, Toby is hurting also, but there's a part of Kate's own pain and experience that he'll never understand.

True, and I like that he even acknowledged that. I know it's hard for Kate, and I think the show being only 42 minutes and wanting to deal with the primary fallout in this episode, they needed to have Toby say the line about it being about him too. Again, it's one of these situations where the magic of TV comes into play and realistically, Toby might have waited a few weeks and let Kate grieve and bitch at him, but the show's plans didn't allow for that to happen. He was still trying to be supportive and he did tell her that he'd never understand the physical pain of going through a miscarriage. I do think they tried to address all angles as best as they could. 

I just don't like that this ended up being more of a Very Special Episode, with everything wrapped up as best as they could at the end of this episode. While Kevin's episode was left very open ended and definitely not over, Kate saying that they'll try again and making up with Toby, though nice to have, felt definite and mostly wrapped up. 

[Jodithgrace]

Quote

Again it was about her singing, hiding things from Mom, being a surly teen, but what were his aspirations beyond singing? What did she like to do, hobbies, friends, etc.

Well, we do know she liked Buffy The Vampire Slayer, per the poster over her bed. I think that the reason we never get to really know Kate, even after this episode, is that she is a very closed off person. After her mother's attempt to "help" her with her singing, she retreated and kept her singing aspirations to herself. After her father died, I think she closed off even more. At the fat camp, she started to open up a bit about her feelings, but that got stalled and she seems to only let her bitchy side out at OA meetings. She puts up a front, even for Toby. Maybe now, after the miscarriage,  and letting her Mom and Toby in, we will all get to know her better. 

Re: Oniongate; Most supermarkets have bins of loose onions as well as bagged. I don't recall how it was back then, but it seems that there have always been people who need to buy just one onion or potato (like me) and can't use a whole bag. The store manager was less than helpful there. 

For people who were being cautious about a just beginning pregnancy..why would they order an expensive baby bath? That's what baby showers are for! Details like that always irk me in tv shows. That, and the gigantic stuffed animals, that some well-meaning dad-to-be always lugs home.  I think that Toby's dealing with the delivery man was his equivalent of Rebecca's onion meltdown. 

I don't ever cry during this show, being a cold-hearted person, but I did well up a bit when Rebecca arrived. That was very well done. 

[Sammich]

53 minutes ago, wallofsound said:

That’s about it in a nutshell, isn’t it??  She’s just not that interesting to me.  Plus she’s all quiet and barely reacts to things.  Just not entertaining to watch her.   And I hate the way she says “Tobe” constantly.   

Speaking of ‘Tobe’, it’s not that hard to intercept a package at your own house.  I do it constantly to hide things from my husband.   

I was happy for Kate and Rebecca that Rebecca just showed up, knowing Kate needed someone & that Kate was open and let herself be mothered, but I still don’t like either one of them.   They are probably my least favorite characters.   Well, the two of them and ‘Tobe’.    So, this episode didn’t have much going on for me.   Sorry to be so negative!!  I really do look forward to this show, although not nearly as much as last season.  

I wish I didn't agree with this post, but I do.  I loved Kate last season, but I just don't think her character has been fleshed out enough.  On the other end of the spectrum, Kevin's story line annoyed me last season, but this season we have seen and learned so much more about him.  I love teen Kate very much, and I wish adult Kate grabbed me like the teen one does.   I hope we do find out more about Kate's life after Jack died and before she met Toby.  I think part of my problem is that I just don't understand why the show keeps the singing story line happening.  I think that's the weak link for me, and it's taken me out of being interested in Kate.  

[TwoGrayTabbies]

Quote

Ugh, Toby's "I'm a large and powerful man" speech was so gross regardless of his good intentions. There is no need to be a dick to a guy who is just trying to do his job. Instead of being a bossy jerk with vague "I'm trying to protect someone" and threats of "I don't know how much longer I can remain calm," he could have just explained the situation in ONE sentence. "My fiancé just miscarried a few hours ago and this package is a baby bath which will obviously upset her if it shows up on our doorstep so I'd really appreciate it if you could help me prevent that from happening."

That annoyed me, too.  Can Toby do anything without making a grand gesture showing off his soulful depth and drafting innocent bystanders as his audience?  It’s ridiculous that the employee would risk his job by letting an unauthorized person into the warehouse.  Especially after the unauthorized guy implicitly threatened him with violence.

 

But it could have been worse.  After Randall’s scene pouring out his guts to the Home Depot employee, I was expecting Toby to appeal to the guy’s ethnicity, by a comment to the effect that Latinos uniquely understand the importance of devotion to family.  (But that would have made his “meh” reaction to Toby’s question about his sister funnier.)

Edited November 22, 2017 by TwoGrayTabbies

[Trillian]

On 11/22/2017 at 6:27 AM, Conotocarious said:

Having had a miscarriage myself (and my sister had two) I found the actual miscarriage scene was more a TV miscarriage and not so much real life. I’m sure everyone’s experience is different but I never had any sharp pains and then boom it’s gone. I was 10 weeks it was like a mini labor and it took a while to actually start. It’s not over quickly if you pass it naturally (I ended up having a D&C but I was miscarrying for nearly a full day before the procedure). So I didn’t think Kate would be running out to sing 12 hours after. She didn’t have a D&C and unless she had been spotting for days or something I find it very unlikely it just happened in the shower. That’s not how they work. I thought this show strove for more realism that that. Took me straight out of it.

 

On 11/22/2017 at 6:42 AM, Duckie30ca said:

Unpopular opinion...

But this ep made me like Toby and hate Toby. I think the actor did a great job and he and Chrissy Metz did a fantastic job showing how a couple in a miscarriage tends to grieve in a parallel way. They are tiptoeing around each other and don't want to upset the other.  That was realistic to me. 

BUT - when he broke out the "this happened to me too" I immediately noped because I VIVIDLY remember having that conversation with Mr Duckie a few months after my third miscarriage and SCREAMING about how it wasn't HIS body betraying him. I acknowledge it was his baby too but it is just not something a man can understand. Toby has grief. I get that. I wish HE had someone else he could talk to...a guy friend or whatever because at 12 hrs post-miscarriage it's kinda all about Kate right now.

 

My condolences to both of you on your loss.

Spoiler

The most realistic TV miscarriage I ever saw was on Six Feet Under (do I need spoiler tags for a show that's been off the air for so many years?) when Brenda lost her pregnancy the day before her wedding and opted not to get the D&C right away.  Her comment about getting married while her "baby slowly leaked out" of her broke my heart because it was so much like my miscarriage, which also took several days.

I agree Kate's was unrealistically quick and neat. I was also alarmed last night when the doctor said that she had passed most of the tissue in the shower - "most" is not good enough, since all it takes is a little bit to end up with a raging, and potentially fatal, case of puerperal fever.  Get that woman a D&C and make sure it's all out.

And yeah, Mr. Trillian was also the recipient of the "it didn't happen to your body" scream.  Unfair, sure, since he was grieving too.  But realistic.

[bichonblitz]

2 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Okay, so the dog peed on the floor, and instead of grabbing paper towels to clean the carpet, Kate uses them to wipe the dog? What the hell was that?

I just kept thinking "who the heck puts the dog on the sofa, on it's back no less, to clean the pee off of it"? 

The dog has been showcased several times lately in several episodes, I'm wondering if the dog is instrumental in some way to what happens in the future with Jack or Kate or the house burning down? 

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Okay, so the dog peed on the floor, and instead of grabbing paper towels to clean the carpet, Kate uses them to wipe the dog? What the hell was that?

Now that's my big laugh of the day. All the notoriously hard to train dachshund puppies I've raised and all the mad  dashes for the paper towels before it soaks into the dining room rug,  it never once occurred to me to wipe the dog.  

[Driad]

Berklee College of Music  is in Boston and is a very good school.

Were Jack and Randall going to see Harvard (and maybe MIT?) If Kate had told them she was interested in Berklee, she could have gone with them.

[LoveLeigh]

7 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I am glad I am not the only one who felt like Randall is bordering on the "magical Negro", I loved his character the first season but he is grating on me lately.

Randall is another character who as a parent is scripted to say and do all the right things. 

[Katy M]

My cat peed lying down once.  You can bet I was doing my best to clean her up.  Of course, not being a dog, she had no patience for such things.

[dlyn]

38 minutes ago, Driad said:

Berklee College of Music  is in Boston and is a very good school.

Were Jack and Randall going to see Harvard (and maybe MIT?) If Kate had told them she was interested in Berklee, she could have gone with them.

Jack and Randall are going to DC. To Howard, I believe, but they haven’t said that yet. Im assuming based on the preview. 

[absnow54]

My cat peed lying down once. You can bet I was doing my best to clean her up. Of course, not being a dog, she had no patience for such things.

Oh, I've definitely had animals that needed to be cleaned up after the fact, but that dog clearly lifted its leg to pee on the carpet, and not on itself.

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I also don't agree that William was a "MN" because we, the audience learned about his life, his past, where he came from, as well.  I felt William was a fully fleshed out character.

I would agree that William wasn't a "magical negro." I'd say he was a huge cliche of a different kind.

He was the pipe dream of just about any child who was given up by a drug addicted parent. "I'll bet my bio dad is an amazing musician, and a civil rights hero, and an incredible poet, and he touches the life of every single person he talks to, even the mailman! And he probably got clean shortly after I was born, and he's stayed completely sober, and he desperately wants to meet me! But he can't, because my mean mom won't let him! So he's just waiting for me, writing a book of amazing poetry for me, praying that some day I find him!"

Edited November 22, 2017 by Blakeston

[greekmom]

11 hours ago, elle said:

I agree with you that Deja and her mom for that matter exist only as a plot point for Randall.  While I would like to see this particular story go away, I strangely like Deja, or the actress makes me like her. Still,  I do not wish to watch Randall or Beth pontificate or moralize all over the place next week.

Since we will get to see the road trip for Randall with Jack, I wonder if the travel/time questions will be answered.

I agree with the above.  I wanted to see how Randall's anxiety developed or worsened and the road trip with Jack.  

I don't agree next episode should be about Deja and her mom and Randall's reaction to it.  

Sadly, I really felt for Kate when she went to her drug of choice (food) and sat there contemplating if she should give in or not.  Shades of William before he got the knock on the door from Randall.

Add me to the Toby love train. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, TwoGrayTabbies said:

That annoyed me, too.  Can Toby do anything without making a grand gesture showing off his soulful depth and drafting innocent bystanders as his audience?  It’s ridiculous that the employee would risk his job by letting an unauthorized person into the warehouse.  Especially after the unauthorized guy implicitly threatened him with violence.

It was so unnecessary having him actually go in the warehouse, not one bit believable and his single-mindedness could have been shown some other way. 

Likewise Rebecca and her onion breakdown.  When I've had grief hitting me moments, they've mostly been at home but when they strike in public I get in my car or just away from people.  In this case, I don't fault the manager for not running around looking for onions, he was looking at a customer shrieking at another one, and didn't she even grab the woman's cart and push or pull it?  Yeah, she needs to just leave.  I liked Toby's devotion and I get Rebecca's reckoning with loss, but they don't have to involve bystanders.  It's more dramatic than having Rebecca start crying in the shower, or showing Toby waiting by the front door, but I call it overkill.