S02.E09: Number Two

[Guest]

7 hours ago, himela said:

This show is about real people rather than fake interesting people. The purpose is not to relate or be entertained but to make you think and feel for them even though you may have nothing in common with them. It's a people show.

It’s hard to feel for people you don’t relate to.  I feel like that’s a very basic tenet of writing.  

[possibilities]

In real life, there are some people I'm more sympathetic to than others, so I have no problem being the same way with fictional characters. I think they're doing a bad job with Kate because they're making me dislike her, and not feel sympathetic, because she makes no sense; the qualities they give her don't hang together (a person passionate about singing who never sings?? someone with a streak of entitlement so big she thinks she can go to Berklee, or become a professional singer at 37 with no training whatsoever, a run of the mill voice, and not even spending much time auditioning before she lands a gig??? who hates her mother for no reason we can see, even in her 30s, not just as a teenager??).

With Kevin, even when he does something unlikable or off kilter, and even if I probably wouldn't want him in my life if he was a real person, his character still seems somewhat credible to me, and they're making me understand him better and feel for him in an abstract way (i.e. I get it; even if his behavior is flawed, it has an internal logic and I can see him as a person who I wish well).

But with Kate, she just seems like a ridiculous construction of a writer's room that has no idea what they are doing and somehow thinks what they are doing is credible or interesting to watch, which to me it is not.

[Lady Calypso]

I do think the main issue with Kate is that we're given so little of her personality that it's hard to really connect with her character. They did have this problem with Kevin last season, where his only plot was about some girl (Olivia, Sloane, Sophie), so getting to know him was tough. This season has allowed him to grow, and also regress, as an individual, which makes it easier to connect in some way. Kate's issues last season were about her weight, which could have been a compelling storyline if she had more growth as a character. And this season, they've defaulted to a pregnancy storyline. When she has scenes with Kevin, it works better because we see her as an individual, but she has only had a few scenes with him. With Toby, we hear about their romantic life and their sex life, but we're not seeing it. I haven't seen Kate or Toby really do more than share a kiss. This past episode, in their last scene, actually helped connect me to them as a couple because they showed them as an actual couple. 

I think they just needed to give Kate more things to do. Maybe some more hobbies, or actual friends to hang out with. I also feel like she should have stuck to her LA job last season a lot longer. 

I think I would have preferred it if Teen Kate had been interested in a different career path, like being a vet. I'm just so bored by wannabe singers and actors and lawyers and doctors that her being interested in another career path but also enjoying to sing on the side would have been just fine with me. But then, we wouldn't have gotten the Rebecca/Kate scenes, so that would have sucked. 

I'd also love if this season was her path to discover that singing isn't right for her, and she finally forges to a different career path. 

[SueB]

Yes, teen Kate was bratty with her Mom.  But that's a pretty standard part of growing up.**  Daughters fight with their mothers. Sons fight with their dads.  This is how they become individuals and establish independence.  When a woman tells me she has a daughter in her tweens, I say "does she hate you yet?"  Ususally the answer is some variation of "sometimes".  Then I advise them that they shouldn't worry becuase if they tough it out, the daughter will turn around about the college years and suddenly Mom turns "smart" in the daughter's eyes and a new, connected relationship blossoms.  It's a wonderful experience. 

Where things go wonky: If parents overreact, if the fighting is extreme, if the relationship gets "stuck" in that phase.

I suspect that with Jack's death, Kate's relationship got "stuck".  Their relationship stop maturing.  It could have gone differently.  They could have rallied around Rebecca and become super-supportive teens.  But it seems like at least Kate and likely Kevin were supportive at a surface level and then withdrew. Or maybe Rebecca tried to show a brave front and rejected the support.  Now add in each child was going through their own trauma based on the individual relationship with Jack.  For Randall, he likely went towards supressing his own pain to support Rebecca.  Kate probably was too wounded to do anything but wrap herself up in her own pain and hide.  Kevin probalby felt useless to help anyone and tried to be stoic.  

Who these people "are" when this show started for them at Age 36 is a very much a function of how they dealt with this huge loss at a critical time of development of their relationship with each parent.  For Kate, her Dad was too much on "Team Kate" in the mother/daughter wars.  His loss would have really screwed her up.

Music school: Likely neither Kate nor Rebecca fully appreciated what it took to get into Berklee.  And part of that is Kate hiding her desire to explore that before it became last minute.  And with Jack's death, college planning got thrown out the window.

 

** Don't believe me? Google "why do daugthers fight with mothers" or "why do fathers fight with sons".  If you find an article that DOESN'T call this a natural part of growing up, let me know.  

[laurakaye]

7 hours ago, himela said:

I think you are being really strict. Being horrible is being human and it has a meaning. Everything a person does or thinks has a meaning and this is what this show is about; it's not about presenting people we will love rather than people who have humanly attributes and flaws and make mistakes. You trying to create your own way of how things should have happened in my opinion ruins all the meaning of this show.

Respectfully, I think many of us are creating our own ways of how things should've happened because the show itself is not filling in the blanks for us.

When I read the threads, there are always lots of posts from viewers explaining what they think is happening, or how someone might feel, or saying "maybe she did this because he did this."  To me, this shows that many viewers are struggling to find ways to relate to the characters and what they're going though because the show is constantly changing things up without a logical timeline.  Why does Kate think she can quit her job and make it as a singer?  Why did Kevin morph so quickly into a raging addict and why does no one see it?  What's the story behind Randall's huge yet mysterious anxiety attack?  What about Rebecca and Miguel?  Etc.

I love shows that come together slowly, but the characters have to be strongly and firmly fleshed out to keep the viewers caring about them.  I don't see that in this show, and halfway into season 2 we should have a much stronger grasp on who they are and why they do what they do.  Until we know, we can only guess.  But the longer they tease the "big reveals," the bigger the risk that when we finally do get a few more pieces to the puzzle, we won't care anymore.

Edited November 26, 2017 by laurakaye

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

My thought during that scene was why can't she or the other lady just buy individual onions? I mean it's not like it takes a whole bag to make one dish. I know that whole scenario was to show Rebecca's level of grief but I immediately thought of what I would do if that were to happen to me. If someone went off on me like that. I would be, "here you can have it I'll just grab me a couple over here. No problem. Are you OK, lady??" 

I didn't question (during the beginning of the scene) that Rebecca needed a bag of onions - because she said she needed a bag of onions when she was telling the story. Then at the end of it, she said she needed a quarter cup, and I was all WTF? All that when all you needed was a single onion? 

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It’s hard to feel for people you don’t relate to.  I feel like that’s a very basic tenet of writing.  

True enough - but what you can relate to varies from person to person, and story line to story line.  I am constantly amazed about tv shows or movies that people adore, when I can't relate to a single person in them. 

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

But with Kate, she just seems like a ridiculous construction of a writer's room that has no idea what they are doing and somehow thinks what they are doing is credible or interesting to watch, which to me it is not.

I'd hesitated to make that kind of pronouncement about Kate's character for a long time, waiting for her character to get some depth. But yeah, Kate isn't really working for me though there are many things, on the surface, I should absolutely be able to relate to. But I can't connect to her emotionally.

45 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do think the main issue with Kate is that we're given so little of her personality that it's hard to really connect with her character.

Agreed.

@laurakaye - I agree with everything you said. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

True enough - but what you can relate to varies from person to person, and story line to story line.  I am constantly amazed about tv shows or movies that people adore, when I can't relate to a single person in them. 

It makes me wonder how much of it is Metz' acting.  I don't really relate to Kevin's latest crises as in they're not quite like things I've lived through.  But he makes me care because I believe the character's pain and frustration, and I of course know pain and frustration and can empathize when I see it, regardless the cause.  I don't think the writing for Kate is any help but Metz kind of comes across tentative/bitchy moreso than in pain, to me.  I did feel the scene of Rebecca showing up at her door but I wonder how much of that was Moore doing the heavy lifting. 

[Clanstarling]

9 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It makes me wonder how much of it is Metz' acting.  I don't really relate to Kevin's latest crises as in they're not quite like things I've lived through.  But he makes me care because I believe the character's pain and frustration, and I of course know pain and frustration and can empathize when I see it, regardless the cause.  I don't think the writing for Kate is any help but Metz kind of comes across tentative/bitchy moreso than in pain, to me.  I did feel the scene of Rebecca showing up at her door but I wonder how much of that was Moore doing the heavy lifting. 

Good points. I'm not particularly fond of Moore's acting, so I don't know that I, personally, would credit her with the heavy lifting. But it was a more emotionally touching moment than most, and sometimes two actors can lift each other up to better performances. There are so many variables to a performance, the writing, the acting, the directing - any of which can raise it up or make it flat. It's hard to know what to blame or credit sometimes. 

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, yorklee2 said:

My thought during that scene was why can't she or the other lady just buy individual onions? I mean it's not like it takes a whole bag to make one dish. I know that whole scenario was to show Rebecca's level of grief but I immediately thought of what I would do if that were to happen to me. If someone went off on me like that. I would be, "here you can have it I'll just grab me a couple over here. No problem. Are you OK, lady??" 

I think we were meant to believe that that bag of onions were the only onions at all in that whole store.  

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think we were meant to believe that that bag of onions were the only onions at all in that whole store.  

Nope, there were piles of other kinds of onions clearly visible. But since we've already seen that to Rebecca, "it has to be perfect" when it comes to food (the cranberry sauce, Jack's birthday cake), even the slightest deviation from the recipe was apparently out of the question.

[Katy M]

Just now, chocolatine said:

Nope, there were piles of other kinds of onions clearly visible. But since we've already seen that to Rebecca, "it has to be perfect" when it comes to food (the cranberry sauce, Jack's birthday cake), even the slightest deviation from the recipe was apparently out of the question.

Let me rephrase.  the only yellow onions in the whole store.  type of onion does make a difference.

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Let me rephrase.  the only yellow onions in the whole store.  type of onion does make a difference.

The recipe only called for a small amount, and I doubt Jack's palate was refined enough to tell the difference if Rebecca had subbed a different kind of onion.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, chocolatine said:

The recipe only called for a small amount, and I doubt Jack's palate was refined enough to tell the difference if Rebecca had subbed a different kind of onion.

It probably wouldn't have, and if Rebecca was in a better frame of mind, she probably would have just grabbed another bag of onions (for example, she improvised with the chocolate cake in the Teen scenes because she panicked). However, since Rebecca was not only shoving down her grief over losing Kyle, being sleep deprived over taking care of three babies, and it being only six weeks after delivering triplets, I think that scene was intentionally showing Rebecca as irrational and only exploding about the onions because she hadn't been talking about what she was going through and trying to act normal in front of people. She basically, in another world, exploded in a burst of emotions on people that really didn't deserve it. 

[SunnyBeBe]

30 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It probably wouldn't have, and if Rebecca was in a better frame of mind, she probably would have just grabbed another bag of onions (for example, she improvised with the chocolate cake in the Teen scenes because she panicked). However, since Rebecca was not only shoving down her grief over losing Kyle, being sleep deprived over taking care of three babies, and it being only six weeks after delivering triplets, I think that scene was intentionally showing Rebecca as irrational and only exploding about the onions because she hadn't been talking about what she was going through and trying to act normal in front of people. She basically, in another world, exploded in a burst of emotions on people that really didn't deserve it. 

Yes, I think that's exactly what the writers were going after, but, it goes nowhere with me, except to annoy me.  Under my breath I say, here we go again and change the channel.  It reminded of Rebecca's scene at the convenience store when she was pregnant and trying to make a birthday cake for Jack.  That emotional meltdown that seemed unrealistic to me.  How she walked all the way to the store while being VERY pregnant with triplets........SORT OF like how Kate, who is super obese, casually goes for a walk around town after her miscarriage. (Just for the fun of it, even though, due to her size, she must have horribly swollen and sore feet, knees and back.)  Just not buying it.  Just too contrived and doesn't work for me.  I think they need a reality check person on the writing team. 

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, I think that's exactly what the writers were going after, but, it goes nowhere with me, except to annoy me.  Under my breath I say, here we go again and change the channel.  It reminded of Rebecca's scene at the convenience store when she was pregnant and trying to make a birthday cake for Jack.  That emotional meltdown that seemed unrealistic to me.  How she walked all the way to the store while being VERY pregnant with triplets........SORT OF like how Kate, who is super obese, casually goes for a walk around town after her miscarriage. (Just for the fun of it, even though, due to her size, she must have horribly swollen and sore feet, knees and back.)  Just not buying it.  Just too contrived and doesn't work for me.  I think they need a reality check person on the writing team. 

For me, these scenes could work better if written better. The Rebecca onion scene, for example, would work better if the dialogue didn't sound like it was rehearsed or coming from a script. An altered scene would have made me feel for the scene, because I also felt nothing during her meltdown in the grocery store. It's just all attributed to the actual scripted dialogue. But also, maybe Mandy could have altered her acting a tiny bit to make it work better. Mandy did a great job with the end of that particular scene, but the beginning of the scene wasn't as strong.

As for the other scenes, I honestly didn't question them as much, though the Rebecca pregnant and walking several blocks wasn't good writing either. I also didn't mind the scene of Kate walking after her miscarriage because it was made clear that she walked all the way home and it took her several hours to get there (besides her detour to the buffet). She could have stopped to take breaks, but I do also think that she was trying to find a way to not resort to eating from her loss of the baby. 

[sara416]

This is so shallow for such an emotional episode, so feel free to ignore me. But I really liked about 3 of Kate's outfits tonight. Is there any website out there that discusses the clothing worn on this show and sources it? I know some other shows have things like that. 

[OtterMommy]

9 minutes ago, sara416 said:

This is so shallow for such an emotional episode, so feel free to ignore me. But I really liked about 3 of Kate's outfits tonight. Is there any website out there that discusses the clothing worn on this show and sources it? I know some other shows have things like that. 

There is https://wornontv.net/, but it doesn't look like they cover this show.  I think there are some other sites, but I can't seem to track them down at the moment.

[auntiemel]

I think the situation with the onions also triggered an issue with Rebecca that related to Kyle - of something that was rightfully hers being ripped away, and it being arbitrary and unfair, and her being powerless to do anything about it. Of course the onion situation isn't that, exactly, but it was close enough that she found herself railing at the store manager to take her side and make things right, to do the "fair" thing and return the onions to her, because there is no one she can do that to about Kyle.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, auntiemel said:

I think the situation with the onions also triggered an issue with Rebecca that related to Kyle - of something that was rightfully hers being ripped away, and it being arbitrary and unfair, and her being powerless to do anything about it. Of course the onion situation isn't that, exactly, but it was close enough that she found herself railing at the store manager to take her side and make things right, to do the "fair" thing and return the onions to her, because there is no one she can do that to about Kyle.

Didn't she say that this incident happened when the babies were about 6 weeks old?  The whole onion incident could have been the perfect storm of postpartum depression, grief, exhaustion, frustration, hormones, and under-stocked grocery stores.  I can't blame Rebecca too much for this, because I could easily see myself doing the same thing under lesser circumstances.

[possibilities]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I haven't seen Kate or Toby really do more than share a kiss.

And argue!

 

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

When she has scenes with Kevin, it works better because we see her as an individual, but she has only had a few scenes with him.

That's true. It made sense to separate them so they would stop being so codependent and holding each other back, but the flip side of that decision is that we see less of what actually worked. I am very disappointed that I didn't feel like the episode mostly focused on Kate didn't help and in some ways made it worse, from my perspective.

 

1 hour ago, sara416 said:

I really liked about 3 of Kate's outfits tonight.

Me, too!

RE Kate walking home: We've seen Kate exercising very consistently since the beginning of the show. I don't think there's any reason to think she's not fit enough to go on walks. Right after a miscarriage, I don't know. But often if you're emotionally distressed, you have enough adrenaline to ignore the physical pain of whatever else is going on.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, possibilities said:

We've seen Kate exercising very consistently since the beginning of the show.

The two I can recall are sitting on the floor drumming and standing in front of a video doing lat raises with tiny dumbbells.  It struck me that they didn't even try to make it look like much of a workout either time, but I thought that's probably about all she can do, for multiple takes.

[possibilities]

I don't count the drumming. I was referring to her using an elliptical in season 1.

[tennisgurl]

It really is just Kevin's life in a nutshell that when the football accident happened, arguably the defining moment of his life (besides his dads death), his dad and brother were off on a college visit, and his mom and sister were talking about his sisters drama. I mean, I dont blame any of them for that (it was just a normal game so why put off a college visit for that, and Kate and Rebecca had no way of knowing shit was about to go down when they started to talk) but its sort of darkly hilarious that even then, his stuff is happening in the background of other family drama. 

I actually think one of the more interesting aspects of the show is about how families deal with a history of addiction, and how that gets passed on with each generation. Its clearly something greatly affecting the Pearson's.  Its probably most obvious with Jacks dad being an alcoholic, than Jack also being alcoholic (albeit a much more highly functioning one) than Kevin and his opiate addiction, but you also have Kate and her food problems, and Randall's addiction to perfection, which could be due to his unspecified anxiety disorder, or residual issues from having both an adopted and biological father with addiction problems. I really want the show to explore this more, because I think its really interesting.

[Guest]

It is.  They have some great topics.  I mostly gripe but the silly stuff wouldn’t be annoying if it wasn’t great premises they’re sometimes mangling.  

[MaryPatShelby]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:18 PM, Laurie4H said:

 Toby was ok this episode but his rant to the Fed Ex guy was just not something people would do in real life.  People don’t speak in long monologues about their lives to strangers.  

This is kind of the problem I'm running into with this show - the speechifying.  There's always some lengthy monologue, sometimes more than one, in each episode, and it's just plain nuts if one compares it to actual life.  I'm a fairly quick thinker, I think lol, but I could certainly NOT come up with several moving paragraphs to explain to a UPS guy why I needed a package, or to a Home Depot employee about Ceiling Fans and My Life, or to my unborn child about what kind of mom I want to be.  And if anyone talked to me that way, my mind would wander and my eyes would be darting around within 30 seconds, because I guess I'm rude that way!

Yikes, now I feel like I just gave a speech.  But it was written, and I had time to think.

On 11/22/2017 at 2:57 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

"My fiancé just miscarried a few hours ago and this package is a baby bath which will obviously upset her if it shows up on our doorstep so I'd really appreciate it if you could help me prevent that from happening."

Perfect.  You should be a scriptwriter!

On 11/22/2017 at 9:28 AM, Trillian said:

I was also alarmed last night when the doctor said that she had passed most of the tissue in the shower - "most" is not good enough, since all it takes is a little bit to end up with a raging, and potentially fatal, case of puerperal fever.  Get that woman a D&C and make sure it's all out.

Speaking also as a more-than-one-miscarriage veteran, this took me right out of the story and I thought, "couldn't they have even done a LITTLE research?" This was, in my experience, a medically dangerous way of handling a miscarriage and it was wrong of the show to do it.

Edited November 27, 2017 by MaryPatShelby

[Amethyst]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:44 PM, possibilities said:

It's weird that they've given the singing story to Kate. It makes her seem spoiled, sullen, delusional, and unsympathetic. I liked it better when she was a competent organizer and event planner, and was not just moping all the time.

Dropping this plot was the biggest mistake they made with Kate's character.  It had promise, introduced some new people, and gave her some much needed responsibility.  

Kate and Toby buying that expensive baby bath didn't bother me.  I've heard of first time parents going overboard with stuff for the new baby, so I chalked it up to that.

I'm enjoying these new perspectives on Rebecca's flip-out at the grocery store.  Like it's been said (and very well by these posts!) that this stuff is just par for the course for the Pearsons.  People around them are just a ready ear to listen to their problems, or worse, be the target of their wrath.  Randall and the hardware store guy.  Rebecca losing her shit to a customer as well as the manager.  Toby (an honorary Pearson by now) throwing his weight around with a UPS agent.  On and on. 

So even in cases when it's understandable, (like Rebecca's long buried grief about the loss of her child) it no longer comes across as sincere.  These public outbursts are just manipulative now because the writers dip into this well so often.  And it makes the Pearsons look like special snowflakes because they can't talk to the people who are actually involved with the situation, but rather to some poor sap who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Amethyst

[qtpye]

On 11/21/2017 at 11:38 PM, milner said:

I am clearly a lone voice here but I didn’t like any of the episode except for the scenes with Rebecca. I was expecting to be sobbing during it because I have lost a three week old but nothing. I really didn’t like Tobey literally towering over the UPS guy telling him he was “big and powerful “.  Maybe he should have tried a softer more pleading tone. But whatever. I had better duck now since I disagree with almost all the other posters. Lol 

 

On 11/21/2017 at 11:55 PM, Amethyst said:

Was that Sublime's Doin' Time that young Kate was singing?  If so, they finally got a nod to 90s music.

 

I didn't like that, either.  "I'm usually pretty funny, but I'm also big and powerful."  I just felt really bad for the UPS guy, because what if he had told Toby to get lost?  Would Toby have beat him up or tried to get him fired?  Who knows, but I can understand the poor guy not wanting to find out.

 

On 11/22/2017 at 0:46 PM, pinkglove said:

Same here! Well, I still didn't completely get over the fact that she didn't tell Randall about William, but I'm almost there. 

I've been thinking about it for quite some time now - despite Kate constantly blaming Rebecca, it's Jack who contributed more to her problems (and I don't mean his death). Rebecca tells Kate that "it's not her (Kate's) job to make her feel better," while Jack somewhat makes it Kate's job to cheer him up. Then, instead of getting a hold of her life, she's living Kevin's and would probably do it indefinitely if he didn't notice and fire her. And overall, she's unable to grasp the fact that she's the one responsible for her life (admittedly, she got slightly better at it lately). I also think that being "daddy's princess" contributed a lot to her... I don't know, being so afraid to get out of the bubble (no pun intended). 

Rebecca's way of dealing with Kate's weight and her passive-aggressive comments weren't perfect, but I suspect that Kate is greatly exaggerating their influence over her situation. 

 

On 11/22/2017 at 0:56 PM, Blakeston said:

I agree with this. here are so many interesting places they could go with Kate - the one out of the big 3 who isn't a gazillionaire with some sort of extraordinary talent. She should be the easiest to relate to. Instead, she's mostly just a void, and the writers clearly enjoy writing for her significant other more than her.

As far as Kevin going to college, I assumed he didn't end up getting a scholarship. He was just starting to talk to representatives of football programs when he had his career-ending injury.

 

On 11/22/2017 at 2:28 PM, CountryGirl said:

As much as the episode was all things Kate, I felt it shed even more light on Rebecca.

Her lines to a teenage Kate about being a mother (and being a different mother from the one who raised her):

"I always wanted to have a daughter because I wanted to do it a different way. I wanted to be the mom that had her arms wide open just waiting for you to fall in if you needed it… and somehow I don’t know, we just never got there, did we?"

Until they did, when Rebecca flew across the country to be with her grieving daughter.

When Kate opened the door, thinking it was Toby, and found her mother standing there, her arms open wide..my throat and eyes filled.

And her living the concluding words she spoke to a teenage Kate about a mother's love as she stepped forward to hold her daughter:

"It’s my job to stay here with my arms wide open for you to fall into if you need to and even if you don’t need to…because that’s what it means to be a parent."

Rebecca was the very person Kate needed but didn't know she needed until she was there, collapsing in her eyes, and by this point, I am full-on ugly crying and I'm not a crier.

I wish we had gotten a little more insight on why Kate has such issues with her mother (I suspect it's the age-old angst of daughters not measuring up to not only their mother's expectations, but their mothers, themselves), but moments like they just shared tonight, showed they aren't so far apart after all. There was pain and grief but also some healing.

I also kind of loved Toby and I never thought those words would leave my keyboard. 

 

On 11/22/2017 at 3:07 PM, himela said:

We (You and me) and everyone else like us should not be ashamed for being the way we are cause all people are beautiful just the way they are inside and out.

Though with the scene of teen Kate telling her mom she didn't tell her about her trying to get into music school because she was scared her mom would be disappointed, Rebecca saying "if I'd be disappointed I'd be for you, not for me" and Kate saying "sometimes it feels the same thing" I cried a lot. :/

 

On 11/22/2017 at 3:44 PM, BonnieD said:

All this. I'm sick to death of the "sullen teenager" trope. My three daughters didn't act like that, though they had moments. Overall we got along pretty well and now they're in their twenties and thirties we get along GREAT! It seems like Kate got stuck in sullen mode and never grew the hell up. To be thirty-something and still behave the way she does about her mom, rolling her eyes and "putting up" with her rather than embracing the love she always shows, is bullshit. There's no reason that we've been shown for her to be the sour, snotty, selfish woman she appears to be. Often when Toby does something nice or expresses an opinion she says something snide. She is not a generous person IMO. 

As for Toby going on the quest to stop the bath from being delivered. I understand the point as far as constructing an episode of a dramatic show--they had to have something for Toby to do to show how he's suffering too, but  it was just so stupid. His behavior with the delivery guy reminded me of everything I hated about Parenthood--the family members always acting as if they were special snowflakes and their needs trumped everyone else's. Intercept the delivery and return the damn thing. Jeez! it's not rocket science.

 

You're not a grinch. just a normal, sensible person who doesn't think the whole world revolves around them

 

On 11/24/2017 at 1:39 AM, kissedbyarose said:

Did Kate take any vocal/music lessons or was she just hoping to get into Berklee based on raw talent? That scene just reminded me of what happened when she went to that audition. People put years and years of practice and study into these things! 

I don’t see what drives Kate. Which would be okay if she were this sort of aimless 20 something but she’s 37... which is not to say that there’s an age limit on this but what was she doing before? This is pretty much my long winded rambling way of saying that I agree with everyone that this episode didn’t do much for me because we didn’t learn anything new about Kate. 

 

On 11/24/2017 at 5:08 PM, debraran said:

I had to be my kids biggest advocate (guidance was so-so at best) but I wonder where that is in this show? Rebecca admitted that she didn't know very much about college applications but that is part of her job as a parent. You don't just count on guidance counselors or for your kid to magically get in and scholarships. They obviously thought that Kevin was going to get picked up somewhere and Randall was a bright kid, but that means Kate should have been more on the radar. Even without Internet, you should have been writing or visiting before now.

I know parents today who aren't very interested in the process but these two seemed to be very involved in their children. I love this family but so  many gaps in  their lives.

 

On 11/24/2017 at 5:20 PM, chocolatine said:

The bolded part is what keeps bothering me the most about Kate's singing storyline. Her voice is nothing special. It's pleasant enough for karaoke or a community/church choir, but it's completely generic.  

If the show wanted viewers to take Kate's singing seriously, they should have hired an actress with a more distinctive voice. This has been done successfully on other shows; Nashville is one that comes to mind.

 

On 11/24/2017 at 8:07 PM, saber5055 said:

All this episode did for me was make me hate Kate even more. She was a petulant, snotty kid and she's even moreso as an adult. She is hateful in every way. Only the last scene when she FINALLY let her mom hug her and she hugged her back did she become a (somewhat) likable human. And Toby threatening the delivery guy? That guy needed to step back away from Toby and call 911 STAT before Toby beat the sh*t out of him like he said he was going to, and have the cops arrest his *ss. Then Toby going through the warehouse? Yeah, right, like they would let him do that. If you are so freaking worried about the package, sit on your porch and wait for it. Then return it, put it in the attic or sell it on Craigslist. But if I had my way, Toby would be sitting in a jail cell after going all Hulk Smash on a delivery guy. And the onion thing? So what the recipe called for yellow. Buy some white or red or sweet onions. Or tell the lady you'll pay her twice what the onions cost. I would have run out of the store with my (MY) onions if I were that other shopper. Plus Rebecca could have freaking ASKED the grocer if there were more onions in back. Basically, I hated everyone in this episode until Toby gave his "it also affects me" speech and Kate actually hugged her mother after treating her like cr*p her entire child and adult life. Five minutes of redemption after 55 minutes of everyone being horrible.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 7:10 AM, debraran said:

And in 20 years, that hasn't changed. There isn't any growth with some characters. Kate did the same immature thing with her audition, except she blamed it on her weight (and got a great correction that was done with tact and honesty) She hasn't learned much and if Rebecca told her she was too rough then, she would say she wasn't supportive or a cheerleader.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 11:32 AM, Clanstarling said:

Berklee is, to my understanding, as well known as Julliard. They take the creme de la creme, and there are plenty of accomplished kids for them to sort, and reject, at that age. It doesn't seem, from what we've seen, that Kate has actually done anything to pursue singing, so she'd be an instant reject.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 0:07 PM, BetyBee said:

Why doesn't the show just dub in a fabulous singer for both teen and adult Kate?  

 

On 11/25/2017 at 3:44 PM, possibilities said:

It's weird that they've given the singing story to Kate. It makes her seem spoiled, sullen, delusional, and unsympathetic. I liked it better when she was a competent organizer and event planner, and was not just moping all the time.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 9:43 PM, love2lovebadtv said:

I handwave lots of things on this show; it's fiction - not a documentary or even a reality show.

So I don't care if Beth's childbirth experience is similar to my own. I don't mind Kevin talking about the Challenger tragedy occurring when he was in second grade when I know that it happened when I was in second grade and I'm older than the big 3. It's still in the same time frame and only a few years off. I get Rebecca & Jack taking the kids trick-or-treating as Sonny & Cher because that scenario and those costumes worked for them - not for every family at that time, but for them. Plus, my exposure to Sonny & Cher came primarily from people dressed up like them on TV or as Halloween costumes, so I'll buy it. Prior to Randall's adoption storyline this season, I even handwaved Randall's first-season adoption story, which seemed less formal than when I adopted my Cabbage Patch Kid (of course, this season we're seeing a lot more on the process of adopting Randall). 

But I cannot get past the fact that Kate is just not a singer.  Yes, she can sing. But it makes no sense to me that she would consider applying to a prestigious college for music and her mother didn't even know she sang anymore. I get that she didn't open up to her mother, but then that would also mean that she had no voice lessons, didn't participate in a singing group, wasn't singing around the house much, etc. I don't buy it. And I don't buy her waking up at 37 and deciding to become a singer and having people pay her to do so.  I really want them to give her something else to do (YouTube, voice lessons, etc.) besides all of a sudden having gigs.

 

12 hours ago, possibilities said:

In real life, there are some people I'm more sympathetic to than others, so I have no problem being the same way with fictional characters. I think they're doing a bad job with Kate because they're making me dislike her, and not feel sympathetic, because she makes no sense; the qualities they give her don't hang together (a person passionate about singing who never sings?? someone with a streak of entitlement so big she thinks she can go to Berklee, or become a professional singer at 37 with no training whatsoever, a run of the mill voice, and not even spending much time auditioning before she lands a gig??? who hates her mother for no reason we can see, even in her 30s, not just as a teenager??).

With Kevin, even when he does something unlikable or off kilter, and even if I probably wouldn't want him in my life if he was a real person, his character still seems somewhat credible to me, and they're making me understand him better and feel for him in an abstract way (i.e. I get it; even if his behavior is flawed, it has an internal logic and I can see him as a person who I wish well).

But with Kate, she just seems like a ridiculous construction of a writer's room that has no idea what they are doing and somehow thinks what they are doing is credible or interesting to watch, which to me it is not.

The problem I have is that Kate seemed to have no ambition, beyond expecting a singing career being handed to her.  The boys for all their faults, have active interests and ambitions.  I do not mean that Kate needs to go after a high powered job, but at 37, she does not have much defining her.

She also seems to no financial worries, even though she does not seem to have the great success of both of her brothers.

I have also seen Kate and Toby be rude to service people many times.  Kate being nasty to the balloon lady and Toby taking advantage of the poor coffee store manager who was being kind by playing his song.  I think Kate and Toby are extremely self centered and entitled.  So the "miscarriage makes Toby and out of character jerk" or "he is right to threaten that man with his size, because he is protecting Kate" does not work for me.

I agree that teenagers can be rude and snarky, but until this episode, adult Kate was always pretty nasty to her mother, who only wants to be part of her life.

Posters have talked about popular and pretty mothers being disappointed with their daughters, but I do not think that is the case with Rebecca.  She really does seem to love Kate for who she is.  The worst thing she did was to offer Kate cantaloupe when the boys had sugary cereal.     I sometimes wonder if Kate has some sort of Electra complex with Rebecca and really hope the show does not go there.

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

Speaking also as a more-than-one-miscarriage veteran, this took me right out of the story and I thought, "couldn't they have even done a LITTLE research?" This was, in my experience, a medically dangerous way of handling a miscarriage and it was wrong of the show to do it.

OB/GYN here.  Depends on how far along she was and what exactly was found on her exam and/or ultrasound.  Over the past few years, there have been several large studies that have shown that many, if not most, women who miscarry don’t need a D&C.  There’s also a simple procedure that can be done in the doctor’s office or ER to handle things without the risk of surgery.

Of course, it would’ve all made a lot more sense if the doctor told her they felt she had passed everything and no further treatment was needed, although she might well still be given medication to lessen the bleeding and possibly an antibiotic.

It is pretty unusual for a woman to miscarry the way Kate did; it’s not usually such a sudden, rapid process; but what happened isn’t completely outside the realm of possibility.

[CelticBlackCat]

4 hours ago, Amethyst said:

Dropping this plot was the biggest mistake they made with Kate's character.  It had promise, introduced some new people, and gave her some much needed responsibility.  

Kate and Toby buying that expensive baby bath didn't bother me.  I've heard of first time parents going overboard with stuff for the new baby, so I chalked it up to that.

I'm enjoying these new perspectives on Rebecca's flip-out at the grocery store.  Like it's been said (and very well by these posts!) that this stuff is just par for the course for the Pearsons.  People around them are just a ready ear to listen to their problems, or worse, be the target of their wrath.  Randall and the hardware store guy.  Rebecca losing her shit to a customer as well as the manager.  Toby (an honorary Pearson by now) throwing his weight around with a UPS agent.  On and on. 

So even in cases when it's understandable, (like Rebecca's long buried grief about the loss of her child) it no longer comes across as sincere.  These public outbursts are just manipulative now because the writers dip into this well so often.  And it makes the Pearsons look like special snowflakes because they can't talk to the people who are actually involved with the situation, but rather to some poor sap who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yeah, like the one appearance only of the beautiful and wonderful Jami Gertz!  Damn!  I was so excited we'd be seeing Kate and Marin work together and then whoosh, just like the sound a marriage at city hall makes, she's gone.

It's still surprising to me that Kate would want to buy a baby bath this early in the pregnancy since she was so adamant about not getting excited, hopes up, etc.

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I have also seen Kate and Toby be rude to service people many times.  Kate being nasty to the balloon lady and Toby taking advantage of the poor coffee store manager who was being kind by playing his song.  I think Kate and Toby are extremely self centered and entitled.  So the "miscarriage makes Toby and out of character jerk" or "he is right to threaten that man with his size, because he is protecting Kate" does not work for me.

This is a huge problem for me, too. I feel like the show thinks this is OK, or even heroic somehow, and I find that to be extremely discouraging.

[Amethyst]

13 minutes ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Yeah, like the one appearance only of the beautiful and wonderful Jami Gertz!  Damn!  I was so excited we'd be seeing Kate and Marin work together and then whoosh, just like the sound a marriage at city hall makes, she's gone.

It's really baffling how they dropped this plot without a second thought.  The only way we would have remember its existence was Toby mentioning the job, months later.  A waste of Jami Gertz, as well as the girl playing her daughter.

 

2 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I feel like the show thinks this is OK, or even heroic somehow, and I find that to be extremely discouraging.

This, 100%.

[little black cloud]

Real question: Are we supposed to think Kate is a good singer? I don’t. But I can never decide whether the show wants me to believe she is. Her audition tape, agggh. 

[Blakeston]

On 11/24/2017 at 9:28 PM, OtterMommy said:

As an aside....there is that old saying about how it ain't over until the fat lady sings...the irony of that is that the "fat ladies" usually aren't that fat.  It's sort of a cliche to think that opera divas are large women--they can be all sizes and, frequently, those who look larger are not as large as one might think.  Through years of training, they've built up the muscles in their torsos, which make them look barrel-chested.  But really, an accomplished singer even close the size of Kate would be hard to find.

The closest I can think of would be Montserrat Caballe, who was very large during at least one point in her career.

9 hours ago, little black cloud said:

Real question: Are we supposed to think Kate is a good singer? I don’t. But I can never decide whether the show wants me to believe she is. Her audition tape, agggh. 

I think we're supposed to believe that she has some raw talent, but she's also untrained. In the present day, she seems to be good enough to get the occasional small (often unpaid) gig. But the feedback she got when she auditioned to be a wedding singer was that she wasn't nearly good enough for something like that, at least not yet.

As a teenager? Her audition tape started out quite rough, so I'm guessing she won't get in to Berklee. I really hope they didn't expect us to be particularly impressed by that rendition.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Blakeston

[possibilities]

It might actually be interesting to see her realize she's not that good, and deal with how she feels about being "ordinary" with two wildly successful brothers. If she could find her own worth outside of competing with her brothers (and her mom, apparently), and learn to enjoy her life, it would make her a lot less annoying and rude to others.

[himela]

On 25/11/2017 at 4:28 AM, OtterMommy said:

There is a reason for that.  Her bodyweight affects how she can fill and support her lungs, so it would be very hard, if not impossible, for someone that size to be able to have the support needed to sing at a professional level.

As an aside....there is that old saying about how it ain't over until the fat lady sings...the irony of that is that the "fat ladies" usually aren't that fat.  It's sort of a cliche to think that opera divas are large women--they can be all sizes and, frequently, those who look larger are not as large as one might think.  Through years of training, they've built up the muscles in their torsos, which make them look barrel-chested.  But really, an accomplished singer even close the size of Kate would be hard to find.

I find this post to be mean spirited and misleading.

[smartymarty]

Quote

I had to be my kids biggest advocate (guidance was so-so at best) but I wonder where that is in this show? Rebecca admitted that she didn't know very much about college applications but that is part of her job as a parent. You don't just count on guidance counselors or for your kid to magically get in and scholarships. They obviously thought that Kevin was going to get picked up somewhere and Randall was a bright kid, but that means Kate should have been more on the radar. Even without Internet, you should have been writing or visiting before now.

Rebecca was asking Kate to come up with a list, sat with Kevin in his interview with the coach (and baked a cake), and took Randall to visit a school, so I don't see where you think they weren't doing anything. All my parents did was go to the one guidance counselor session with me to hear what schools were possible for me, and then took me to visit once I decided where to apply. But making the list out and filling out applications was on me, since I was the one going to college. The amount of helicoptering by parents varies.

[debraran]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

Rebecca was asking Kate to come up with a list, sat with Kevin in his interview with the coach (and baked a cake), and took Randall to visit a school, so I don't see where you think they weren't doing anything. All my parents did was go to the one guidance counselor session with me to hear what schools were possible for me, and then took me to visit once I decided where to apply. But making the list out and filling out applications was on me, since I was the one going to college. The amount of helicoptering by parents varies.

I had to be an advocate for money. There were a lot of things out there that the guidance counselors didn't know about or didn't have time to pass on.  I found some local and other out of state scholarships but my daughters had to do the writing and applying. They ended up with pretty good scholarships but it took some work to find who gave 100% need, who gave less, who gave none.  We couldn't afford that much and they didn't want huge loans and I feel the extra work helped. Some of their peers did well also, some ended up with paying a lot because they applied too late to colleges or didn't prepare.

It's a busy time in high school and I believe in letting your kids have wings, but when it comes  to learning about money and loans and scholarships, it's a group effort.

Rebecca knew Kevin would go somewhere and Randall would also, Kate seemed like a question mark and kind of lost when applying to the music school.

Edited November 28, 2017 by debraran

[auntiemel]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

Rebecca was asking Kate to come up with a list, sat with Kevin in his interview with the coach (and baked a cake), and took Randall to visit a school, so I don't see where you think they weren't doing anything. All my parents did was go to the one guidance counselor session with me to hear what schools were possible for me, and then took me to visit once I decided where to apply. But making the list out and filling out applications was on me, since I was the one going to college. The amount of helicoptering by parents varies.

I'm the first person in my family to go to college, so my parents weren't well-versed in the process at all. Additionally, their time was pretty taken up day to day by dealing with my sister's fairly serious health problems. The result of that was that they basically offered support where I asked for it--writing a check for the application fees, signing the FAFSA, mailing the applications packages, etc. I still managed to get into a first tier ranked university on a 75% academic scholarship.

Honestly, the process isn't all that difficult. It's complicated, certainly, and requires a lot of work and a lot of staying on top of things. But for a student who should be able to perform at the level expected at an elite university, taking charge of the application process on their own shouldn't be too much to ask!

[NutMeg]

3 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Rebecca was asking Kate to come up with a list, sat with Kevin in his interview with the coach (and baked a cake), and took Randall to visit a school, so I don't see where you think they weren't doing anything. All my parents did was go to the one guidance counselor session with me to hear what schools were possible for me, and then took me to visit once I decided where to apply. But making the list out and filling out applications was on me, since I was the one going to college. The amount of helicoptering by parents varies.

 

1 hour ago, auntiemel said:

I'm the first person in my family to go to college, so my parents weren't well-versed in the process at all. Additionally, their time was pretty taken up day to day by dealing with my sister's fairly serious health problems. The result of that was that they basically offered support where I asked for it--writing a check for the application fees, signing the FAFSA, mailing the applications packages, etc. I still managed to get into a first tier ranked university on a 75% academic scholarship.

Honestly, the process isn't all that difficult. It's complicated, certainly, and requires a lot of work and a lot of staying on top of things. But for a student who should be able to perform at the level expected at an elite university, taking charge of the application process on their own shouldn't be too much to ask!

Yep. And once again the focus is on Randall. Then on Kevin, but really not, because of course the consensus is that he'll do well, so no need really to be there for him or worry about him, or even really cheer for him. Last, as a footnote, on Kate. Which doesn't make sense  - unless daddy Jack had supported her before and unbeknown to Rebecca with her application? Because it makes no sense that Jack as we saw him with Kate wouldn't have discussed her future with her. Unless he never parented her because at some stage she became the parent? Like the car episode implied?

[Writers or TIS: it sucks that we have to resort to what ifs etc. Are you using us for input or what? if so, I demand credits for me and my fellow posters]

[possibilities]

They didn't show us, but I rather doubt that the parents told Randall where to go and where to apply. I'm sure he took initiative and they supported him by taking him on visits, but there's no evidence that they wouldn't do the same for Kate. Rebecca was trying to get Kate to put some effort into thinking about what she wanted, so they could talk about next steps, and Kate was not participating in the conversations. I don't think that was an issue with Kevin or Randall, so they were farther along in the process.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

They didn't show us, but I rather doubt that the parents told Randall where to go and where to apply. I'm sure he took initiative and they supported him by taking him on visits, but there's no evidence that they wouldn't do the same for Kate. Rebecca was trying to get Kate to put some effort into thinking about what she wanted, so they could talk about next steps, and Kate was not participating in the conversations. I don't think that was an issue with Kevin or Randall, so they were farther along in the process.

I like how Jack tried to always meet Randall where he was and seeing things through his eyes as much as he could. Sharing with him a special moment about the war was touching too.  I think Howard seems like a good fit and if he goes to an elite grad school later ( I thought they alluded to that in one episode) he will be well prepared.

I still feel Kate is a big void, a surly teen who is moody, etc. but why was that great actress not given more to explore of Kate's life when a teen? What did she like to do, did she have friends, did she like to cook or volunteer at the dog pound or read? We know Kevin was a sports fanatic, Randall liked school and Pac Man, give Kate a little more.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:27 AM, Conotocarious said:

Having had a miscarriage myself (and my sister had two) I found the actual miscarriage scene was more a TV miscarriage and not so much real life. I’m sure everyone’s experience is different but I never had any sharp pains and then boom it’s gone. I was 10 weeks it was like a mini labor and it took a while to actually start. It’s not over quickly if you pass it naturally (I ended up having a D&C but I was miscarrying for nearly a full day before the procedure). So I didn’t think Kate would be running out to sing 12 hours after. She didn’t have a D&C and unless she had been spotting for days or something I find it very unlikely it just happened in the shower. That’s not how they work. I thought this show strove for more realism that that. Took me straight out of it.

A mix of yes and no to me. I've had 2 early miscarriages--similar to Kate timing. Got the "yea, I'm in the pregnancy club" with the pregnancy test and a few days later, got kicked out. I agree there was no sharp pain--it was bleeding started followed by cramping. However, no procedure was needed--no mini labor. I just spent one day feeling crappy and crying (followed by other days of crying). I think she would have skipped the singing gig but otherwise it rang true for a pregnancy around 7-8 weeks to me. I was kind of grateful they showed it with no procedure--because it made it more realistic to me and mirrored my experience.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 5:59 AM, himela said:

I know it's hard to explain that but at the moment I WAS Kate. This is exactly how I would behave with my mom. And I regret it and I suffer about it all the time. Does this make me an awful person? Of course it does! And I make myself pay for it every day. Kate could not bear her mom comforting her. She could not handle that she is such a failure while her mom is such an angel. It's weird mother - daughter relationship that I'm going through through therapy at the moment that's why I'm so sure of how she felt. :/

I don't think that makes you awful. I related to Kate in that moment. At least for me, telling people about a miscarriage is about the hardest part. I felt like a failure; it's oddly embarrassing (or was for me). I could see wanting to tell her to get past it. . .but not wanting to talk. Just not wanting to. I love my mom but in situations like a miscarriage, she's not who I want to talk to. It's just what the relationship is.

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I don't think that makes you awful. I related to Kate in that moment. At least for me, telling people about a miscarriage is about the hardest part. I felt like a failure; it's oddly embarrassing (or was for me). I could see wanting to tell her to get past it. . .but not wanting to talk. Just not wanting to. I love my mom but in situations like a miscarriage, she's not who I want to talk to. It's just what the relationship is.

The hardest part of telling people, was telling a friend who was also pregnant - I ended up consoling HER. Which sucked big time.

[Negritude]

I'm always baffled by people who want desire children whilst treating their own parents like sh*t...and I'm talking good, decent, non-abusive parents like Jack and Rebecca. Meanwhile Deja's saving her allowance to put on her mama's commisary smh.

[MaryPatShelby]

On 11/26/2017 at 9:40 PM, doodlebug said:

OB/GYN here.  Depends on how far along she was and what exactly was found on her exam and/or ultrasound.  Over the past few years, there have been several large studies that have shown that many, if not most, women who miscarry don’t need a D&C.  There’s also a simple procedure that can be done in the doctor’s office or ER to handle things without the risk of surgery.

Of course, it would’ve all made a lot more sense if the doctor told her they felt she had passed everything and no further treatment was needed, although she might well still be given medication to lessen the bleeding and possibly an antibiotic.

It is pretty unusual for a woman to miscarry the way Kate did; it’s not usually such a sudden, rapid process; but what happened isn’t completely outside the realm of possibility.

Thanks for your insight; my miscarriages were many years ago, and I never think about the fact that medical science has progressed since then...duh!!  Still, I was watching the show through my own lens and that's why I questioned it.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Negritude said:

I'm always baffled by people who want desire children whilst treating their own parents like sh*t...and I'm talking good, decent, non-abusive parents like Jack and Rebecca. Meanwhile Deja's saving her allowance to put on her mama's commisary smh.

I'm thinking you're talking about Kate treating her mother shabbily?  Because Randall and Rebecca have been shown to be close.  He forgave her pretty quickly for not revealing she knew the whereabouts of William, and he even calls her Mommy as an adult.  Kate, on the other hand . . .

[Negritude]

On 12/2/2017 at 0:54 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I'm thinking you're talking about Kate treating her mother shabbily?  Because Randall and Rebecca have been shown to be close.  He forgave her pretty quickly for not revealing she knew the whereabouts of William, and he even calls her Mommy as an adult.  Kate, on the other hand . . .

Yes my comment was directed at Kate being that she was the focus of this episode. I can't stand the way she treats Rebecca, in all three iterations of the character. She should try having my mama lol, and I'm good to her because she could've been a whole lot worse. 

She was daydreaming about the child she lost and I couldn't help but think yeah babies are cute but what about when they get older and mouthy and surly towards you and you can barely communicate with them because you weren't 100% a perfect parent. Give Rebecca a break damn lol. Which she kinda did at the end of the ep but how long before she goes right back to shutting her out.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Negritude

[smores]

I didn't find anything weird about Kate hanging up on Rebecca.  When I found out that my parent had died unexpectedly, I called my husband, who was at work, and then didn't tell anyone else for a while.  Eventually, about 4 hours later, I told my closest friend, and it was super awkward, because I had actually been texting back and forth with her off and on the entire time I knew, but I just didn't actually want to start hearing the "I'm so sorry" When I did tell her, I heard that, along with "Why didn't you tell me right away?"  Of course I get where she was coming from, because if I were in her shoes, I'd feel the same, it's just that at the time, I couldn't bear to have the conversation and listen to the sympathy, etc.

I also had to be restrained at the DMV a few days later (in a totally different state, the one my parent lived in, which was nowhere near where I lived), while trying to change the title on their car, so I could sell it and then go back home.  Evidently this required more id than I had with me and they were not willing to work with me at all.  The manager told me that I should have planned ahead and brought the required ID, as "it's common knowledge that you need 7 pts of id" or whatever.  This was my breaking point, having had to clean out a house, deal with relocating an elderly relative and try to cope with the sudden death, and I was ready to climb over the counter and fight her.  Instead, I was pretty much pulled out of the building while yelling that I hoped when HER parent died, she remembered her passport.  Really not my finest moment, and not at ALL how I behave on a normal day, but then?  I just couldn't take one more thing and that was where it all came apart.

Kate's episode was a bit of a letdown for me, I was hoping to get more background.  I want to like her, but I just feel like she's kind of an add on to everyone else's story.  She doesn't really have enough of her own backstory to be a fullfledged character the way that Randall and Kevin do in this type of show.

[debraran]

3 hours ago, smores said:

I didn't find anything weird about Kate hanging up on Rebecca.  When I found out that my parent had died unexpectedly, I called my husband, who was at work, and then didn't tell anyone else for a while.  Eventually, about 4 hours later, I told my closest friend, and it was super awkward, because I had actually been texting back and forth with her off and on the entire time I knew, but I just didn't actually want to start hearing the "I'm so sorry" When I did tell her, I heard that, along with "Why didn't you tell me right away?"  Of course I get where she was coming from, because if I were in her shoes, I'd feel the same, it's just that at the time, I couldn't bear to have the conversation and listen to the sympathy, etc.

I also had to be restrained at the DMV a few days later (in a totally different state, the one my parent lived in, which was nowhere near where I lived), while trying to change the title on their car, so I could sell it and then go back home.  Evidently this required more id than I had with me and they were not willing to work with me at all.  The manager told me that I should have planned ahead and brought the required ID, as "it's common knowledge that you need 7 pts of id" or whatever.  This was my breaking point, having had to clean out a house, deal with relocating an elderly relative and try to cope with the sudden death, and I was ready to climb over the counter and fight her.  Instead, I was pretty much pulled out of the building while yelling that I hoped when HER parent died, she remembered her passport.  Really not my finest moment, and not at ALL how I behave on a normal day, but then?  I just couldn't take one more thing and that was where it all came apart.

Kate's episode was a bit of a letdown for me, I was hoping to get more background.  I want to like her, but I just feel like she's kind of an add on to everyone else's story.  She doesn't really have enough of her own backstory to be a fullfledged character the way that Randall and Kevin do in this type of show.

I'm sorry, re your dad and the DMV. Had something similar happen and it was just a piece of mail they wanted,  2 pieces not one. Really unbending at times.

I agree wholeheartedly about Kate. I've said from the beginning, Kate isn't just the overweight daughter/sister but we know so little. Even in flashbacks, it's about her weight, grandma with outfit, the fruit scene, etc.  Kevin and Randall had much more.  Kate as a kid isn't even that overweight, but they put her with very thin friends and emphasize it with clothes, etc. I think as a teen, she is cute and quite capable of having hobbies or friends or something other than food and an obsessive love of her dad. Even her nail day with Mom got sidelined with Jack's dad and she spent it in a hallway. Flashback scenes in siblings minds show them playing and having fun but I wish more was shown of them back then.

To make Jack's death have her tailspin into a very large weight gain and other issues seems a little odd to me, not that she wouldn't have issues, but that no one could reach her, no group counseling, no help at all. When you think 20 years went by like that, it's very sad and I'm sure not the legacy her dad would want for his children.