A League of Their Own (1992): Women, Baseball, and that Darn Ending...

[krankydoodle]

Lori Petty also answered with a resounding "No" when asked again on Twitter if Dottie dropped the ball on purpose:

But then Kit would say that ;-)

[Bastet]

Here's another good oral history, from ESPN.  I always enjoy hearing how much all the actors enjoyed making this movie -- getting to spend so much time with a bunch of other women, working for Penny, having to get the physical stuff right, etc.  And about how many people had no idea the league had ever existed until the documentary that inspired the film, or until getting/hearing about this script, and thus how it makes them feel that this film wound up being many people's introduction to the AAGPBL.

There was a 25th anniversary edition released on Blu-Ray back in April, apparently.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Bastet

[ebk57]

About the time this thread started, I got my monthly magazine from the Baseball Hall of Fame, and this movie was the cover story.  I tried to go and get the link online, but it wasn't up yet.  Now it is.

 

http://baseballhall.org/discover/25-years-after-a-league-of-their-own

 

Interesting and fun reading about the exhibits in the HoF and about the movie itself.  

[BetterButter]

[Bastet]

What a great interview with Anne Ramsay in that Baseball HoF magazine.  Some examples:

Quote

“After the film came out, little girls would come up to all of us all excited because they finally had something that would represent them, that they could look up to,” Ramsay said. “Little girls and young women starving for that. It was amazing to be a part of. And still is, but to a lesser extent now. But I play beach volleyball with people younger than me and some of them are like, ‘Gosh, when I was in high school we would play that film to get psyched up for our games.’ It just brings tears to my eyes. It’s a beautiful thing that I got to be a part of and carry on that message of what those women did. Lucky me.”

Quote

“I remember I was offered a limo ride to the airport when I was going to go off on location to start shooting the film, but I declined because my girlfriend offered to take me and I wasn’t going to see her for a long time,” she added. “And we get to the airport and I started crying and my girlfriend asked me why. I told her I knew I was going to be changed by this film. It was just something I knew was going to be a big deal. We went off and did the film and it was everything and more than I ever could have dreamed of. On the plane ride home after filming wrapped, I’m looking out the window and I’m crying because I didn’t want it to be over.”

Edited July 3, 2017 by Bastet

[HoosierJen]

I live near the small town where they shot a lot of this film. In honor of the 25th anniversary, they've parked the Peaches bus from the movie in the center of town so people can stop and get their pictures taken with it. It makes me smile every time I drive through there and see kids standing around the bus to get their pictures taken. And when it's a bunch of little girls with baseball gloves, it just makes me tear up.

[RedheadZombie]

On June 1, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Dee said:

'Did Dottie drop the ball?' is rapidly becoming 'Could Jack and Rose both fit on the door?' for the 21st century.

Forget about that, how about this?  If Rose had stayed on that damned lifeboat, Jack could have climbed on that door and lived. 

[nilyank]

22 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Forget about that, how about this?  If Rose had stayed on that damned lifeboat, Jack could have climbed on that door and lived. 

Yes, a million times yes. She took a seat that could have saved someone else but no she had to jump off that lifeboat. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I had somehow missed watching this movie despite how long its been around, so I picked it up the DVD from my local library.

First and foremost, Kit is a trifling wench. I get that she had an inferiority complex or whatever and resented Dottie for being better at everything ("Can't you even let me walk faster than you?") but pretty much trying to shame her sister not only off the team but out of the league just makes me wish Dottie had smacked her instead of trying to jolly her along.

Did Dottie drop the ball on purpose? Hard to say. Kit bodychecked her at the plate hard enough to jam her shoulder, and I'd really like to think that she wouldn't not only wreck her team's chance to win their World Series but make her immature brat of a sister the hero of the piece for scoring the winning run. What also puzzles me is why Dottie was so adamant, even in the 'present day' that her time as a baseball player wasn't that important to her. One thing Kit had right is that she had plenty of time to do other things with her life, and while it makes sense that she would be doubly grateful for her husband coming home alive after the telegram from the War Department arrived for Betty, I still wasn't sure of why she protested so much (too much?) that she just wanted to go back to Oregon.

Other than those things, this is a really good movie and I'm glad I watched it. Might add this one to my collection, not sure yet.

[kiddo82]

4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

 What also puzzles me is why Dottie was so adamant, even in the 'present day' that her time as a baseball player wasn't that important to her. One thing Kit had right is that she had plenty of time to do other things with her life, and while it makes sense that she would be doubly grateful for her husband coming home alive after the telegram from the War Department arrived for Betty, I still wasn't sure of why she protested so much (too much?) that she just wanted to go back to Oregon.

I never thought about it before but from the beginning of the film it's established that Dottie had this sense of practicality.  Perhaps it was the double whammy of coming of age during the depression and having it bleed into the war years on top of that.  When we first meet young Dottie, was there ever a time in her conscious being to that point where there was room for life's frivolities?  Kit, being the youngest on the other hand, was probably more sheltered.  She didn't have to worry about what was sensible because she had others (Dottie) doing that for her her entire life.  So while Dottie clearly loved playing, and it showed, her sense of duty to what she felt was "responsible" (husband, kids, steady income) was so great that she couldn't even admit how much she loved something that was simply unnecessary in her world view.

Edited August 11, 2017 by kiddo82

[beckie]

I live in Rockford and on my way to work today I noticed they had some poster things on some of the light poles, celebrating 75th anniversary of the Rockford Peaches. They posters had various quotes from the movie.

[VCRTracking]

[Dr.OO7]

I love this movie, but I hate the scene where Dottie, Kit, and Marla first meet Doris and Mae. The latter two are so completely and inexplicably rude to the other three that it isn't funny, even though it was apparently supposed to be.

[anna0852]

That part actually rang really true for me. I mean they were rude don't get me wrong. But all of those women were there to compete for a small number of spots. Until the tryouts are done and teams are announced they're all working against each other. You see it a lot in drama as well. During the audition process it's very clear that not only are there only so many roles to play but some of them are very small. Everyone is in it for themselves.

[Inquisitionist]

It also set up Mae and Doris as "tough talkers" who respected actual talent -- and did so very efficiently!

[Crs97]

I am already annoyed by Lori Petty with her “dull Bob” comment in that interview.  I liked that Dottie was in love with her husband, that he was a good man, that he was excited to see her play baseball.  I liked Bob.

[andromeda331]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 5:53 AM, Crs97 said:

I am already annoyed by Lori Petty with her “dull Bob” comment in that interview.  I liked that Dottie was in love with her husband, that he was a good man, that he was excited to see her play baseball.  I liked Bob.

I liked that part too. It was nice that she loved her husband and didn't leave him for Jimmy like you'd expect. 

[Arynm]

I just watched this again last night and have decided that it was Dottie's fall down the stairs into the dugout that caused her to drop that ball. She looked really shaken up and I'm going with the supposition that the fall really hurt and put that with the body check she got earlier at the plate, and she just didn't have it in her and dropped the ball. It's too bad, I wanted the Peaches to win, and Kit got what she wanted, even though she was a spoiled brat through the entire movie.

[voiceover]

No.  Just...no.

Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, responding to that subconscious kneejerk, inbred, oldest sibling's guilt-inspired "Look after your [sister]!"

If the error had been the result of physical pain or wooziness, I believe Geena Davis would have registered that reaction.  She didn't.

Dottie was the league's best athlete; a fierce competitor; a natural talent; a clutch player.  Her weakness was the instinct to protect Kit at all costs.  Jimmy had to bully her into admitting her sister was "throwing grapefruits out there"; she offered to leave the Peaches just so Kit wouldn't feel threatened.

That ball-drop was the second-most anguished feminist gutpunch of my filmgoing career.  Alien's Ripley going back for that fucking. cat!!  remains the first.

[VCRTracking]

Maybe it was a matter of who wanted it more?

[Inquisitionist]

An argument in Cosmo for "Dottie didn't drop the ball".  (Sorry if this was posted earlier.)

[roughing it]

10 hours ago, voiceover said:

Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, responding to that subconscious kneejerk, inbred, oldest sibling's guilt-inspired "Look after your [sister]!"

I agree.  At the beginning of the movie, older Dottie phrased the same with her grandsons, telling the oldest to give the younger sibling a chance, while telling the younger sibling to "kill him".  Foreshadowing for the ending...

[qtpye]

I actually had sympathy for Kit, even though she was a giant brat. It must suck to be the less talented and not as pretty sister to Dottie. Heck, Dottie was even the better person, so Kit did not even have that going for her. I remember the black and white film going on about how gorgeous Dottie was but was married and the only thing they said about Kit was that she was as "single as you can be". Kit must have gotten a lot of that all her life.

[Inquisitionist]

1 minute ago, qtpye said:

I actually had sympathy for Kit, even though she was a giant brat. It must suck to be the less talented and not as pretty sister to Dottie.

"This is our daughter, Dottie.  And this is our other daughter, Dottie's sister."

This movie had some very funny lines that conveyed so much about the characters very succinctly.  Eminently watchable!

[VCRTracking]

Interesting tidbits about the movie from Penny Marshall's memoirs "My Mother Was Nuts":
 

Quote

There’s lots of good stuff about Penny’s films. Debra Winger, she says, dropped out of playing the lead in “A League of their Own” because Marshall cast Madonna in the film. “You’re making an Elvis film!” Debra told her. Geena Davis took over the role and won the audience over. The ending of the film–in which Penny showed the real women baseball players–inspired Steven Spielberg to use Holocaust survivors at the end of “Schindler’s List.” He asked Penny’s permission. She was happy to give it since he was the one who turned her on to directing.

[memememe76]

Not that Debra Winger is unattractive by a long shot (or Lori Petty, for that matter), but she seems more like the Kit type. Debra did not seem to have the same glamour quotient as Geena. 

[JAYJAY1979]

For me, the opening credit song by Carole King and the ending credit song by Madonna were an important part of what made the movie so good.  Apparently, Marshall wanted Carole King to see the main song for the movie, but Madonna's contract said she got to sing the closing credit song so Penny marshall created the opening scene in order for Carole King to sing.  Both songs were great and really sum up the movie well.

[Amethyst]

As a kid, I believed Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, and I still believe it now.  Dottie was the best player in the league and everyone knew it.  

What implied it for me were Dottie and Jimmy's reactions after Kit won the whole thing.  While they were watching Kit celebrate, Jimmy was also watching Dottie.  Before that, Jimmy thought the Peaches were winning the game and it was in the bag.  But when they lost and he saw Dottie fondly looking at her sister, I think Jimmy understood what really happened.  People was wondering how Dottie could drop the ball, but Jimmy never questioned it.  He just started consoling the other players and telling them they had played a good game.

[BelleBrit]

This is one of the movies that I can reliably start tearing up at during various moments during the film, no matter how many times that I’ve seen it.  After re-watching it yesterday, here are some of my thoughts-

*The “Did Dottie drop the ball on purpose or not” must be the ultimate Rorschach test-it never had even occurred to me that Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, until I started reading about the movie on the internet in the last few years.  Like, I didn’t even get that it was supposed to be ambiguous!  I saw the movie when it came out in the theater, but I do remember a slumber party where we watched the movie and I had no idea what some girls were talking about when they mentioned that Dottie meant to drop the ball. We ended up freezing the VHS on the moment when Kit slammed into Dottie and came to the conclusion as a group that Dottie took such a hard hit that it was very believable that she could let go of the ball. Her dropping the ball on purpose would really defeat the point of Dottie turning around at Yellowstone to me. She was too competitive a person imo to drop it on purpose, and I don’t buy that Dottie would play the game so hard and then make the decision to drop it  when Kit reaches home base.  I also don’t interpret Jimmy’s look at Dottie as him realizing or acknowledging that she dropped it on purpose, I think that he would have been much colder to her in the end if that had been the case. You can still be the best player in the league, and have a moment when you aren't the best. 

*This movie should get an award for casting the most realistic versions of older characters. However, re-watching it yesterday, the older Helen Hailey sounds a bit like she has a British accent?

*I LOVE the part during the Baseball Hall of Fame reunion when a woman (is she supposed to be the catcher who played for Racine?? She looks like her) recognizes Dottie as the best player in the league-people still remembered her even though she only played for one season, while she was saying that she “wasn’t really part of it” for only playing one year.

*I always thought that “Frank” must have been Kit’s second husband too-my interpretation was that Kit and Dottie remained close, but just never lived too near to each other over the years, so only saw each other on holidays, etc. Loved that one of Kit’s grandkids was “Little Dottie”.

Edited August 6, 2018 by BelleBrit

[festivus]

The first time I watched this movie I thought she dropped the ball on purpose. Since then I've read so many well reasoned arguments on both sides, I don't know what to think!

[ClareWalks]

Adding my two cents, I see how either interpretation is totally valid, but I always saw it as she didn't drop the ball on purpose, but AFTER it happened, when she saw Kit so happy and her team celebrating with her, Dottie couldn't be mad about it. She seemed like she was proud that her sister came into her own and bested her (Dottie) fair and square. After all, Dottie joined the league FOR Kit, so that Kit could play, and I think she just needed to make sure Kit would be okay and happy on her own.

Edited August 7, 2018 by ClareWalks

[nilyank]

On 8/4/2018 at 2:26 AM, Amethyst said:

As a kid, I believed Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, and I still believe it now.  Dottie was the best player in the league and everyone knew it.  

What implied it for me were Dottie and Jimmy's reactions after Kit won the whole thing.  While they were watching Kit celebrate, Jimmy was also watching Dottie.  Before that, Jimmy thought the Peaches were winning the game and it was in the bag.  But when they lost and he saw Dottie fondly looking at her sister, I think Jimmy understood what really happened.  People was wondering how Dottie could drop the ball, but Jimmy never questioned it.  He just started consoling the other players and telling them they had played a good game.

 

Even the best player in the league is going to have a bad play/game especially in the last game to win the series. It has happened over and over and over and over in sports.

And there is no way, "there's no crying in baseball" Jimmy was going to be okay with Dottie dropping the ball on purpose. He was playing to win and was going to get paid a bigger bonus if they won the series. He started to console the team because Dottie and the Peaches were unfortunately beat and there was nothing they could do to change it.

Finally, the movie is such a love letter to the game that it cheapens the game if Dottie drop the ball so that Kit could get an empty victory and cause her team to lose.

I think the reason so many people wanted Dottie to drop the ball was because it would be mean that it was a sacrifice by Dottie the more likeable character for Kit who was bratty during the film. It easier to accept that Dottie lost on purpose rather than Kit winning the game because she wanted it more than Dottie.

[Bastet]

When the film first came out, I thought she dropped it on purpose (because of that close-up on her hand), and it infuriated me, going a long way towards ruining a film I otherwise loved.  But then I watched it again years later and thought the opposite.  In thinking on it over time, I realized that it just doesn't make sense for her to have dropped it on purpose.  Not just that it would be out of character for Dottie (who realized her error in leaving early and came back to finish out the season doing something she loved, with people she loved, and with her husband's enthusiastic support), but just out of "character" for a movie, period -- if the main character did an unbelievably shitty thing like that, there would be aftermath.  Dottie would show regret, Jimmy would be suspicious (and change his attitude towards her accordingly), we'd hear a teammate remark on how Dottie can usually hold on at least, and maybe someone even suggest (not to Dottie, but to another teammate, e.g. Doris to Mae) she did her sister a favor, Kit (that eternally insecure baby) would wonder if Dottie gave her the win, etc. 

But none of that happens.  Dottie is at peace, Jimmy is as enamored as ever, no Peach does anything towards Dottie other than support her, and Kit (who's one of the two people who felt just how hard she hit Dottie) is happy.

Throwing the game would not only cast Dottie in a horrible light, it wouldn't say much for Kit, either, that no matter how good she is or how much she loves the game and wants the win, she simply can't get it unless her sister tanks the play.  So it would make both sisters look bad, screw over all the Peaches we'd come to love, and make Jimmy's belief in Dottie's love of the game (and how that helped him re-discover his own) misplaced.  Sure, there are purposely-subversive films out there that turn storytelling convention on its ear and screw over all the characters, but this celebration of a league of women coming together is not one of those films.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Bastet

[Racj82]

I don't care if Dottie dropped the ball on purpose. It's not important. You will never get your answer. That was never the point. We will never know if the top stops spinning at the end of inception or who is the the thing at the end of The Thing. It's not answered in the movie deliberately.

By the end, it becomes clear that while we are following the team, it was always supposed to come down to Dottie and Kit. There is no evidence to 100 percent conclude anything.

Dottie is a better player. So what? It's one moment. That's sports. The underdog could always pull out the win at a certain point.

Dottie dropped it first Kit? She also had a whole team depending on her. A team she came back for. 

At the end of the day, Kit finally got her moment and Dottie/Kit went on to live lives that were right for them. The fact that Kit was able to win for a change is the point. Not the why or how. 

[BigBeagle]

On 8/7/2018 at 8:50 AM, Racj82 said:

I don't care if Dottie dropped the ball on purpose. It's not important. You will never get your answer. That was never the point. We will never know if the top stops spinning at the end of inception or who is the the thing at the end of The Thing. It's not answered in the movie deliberately.

 

This is my opinion.

When I think back on this movie, I hardly recall the scene at all, but I will remember the telegram scene or "There's no crying in baseball" or "If it was easy, everybody could do it" probably forever.

[VCRTracking]

Someone should recreate this like on Mythbusters and settle it once and for all!

[Browncoat]

The only one who really knows whether or not the ball was dropped on purpose is Dottie, and she's not telling.  (Mostly because she's fictional.)  From the perspective of her teammates, the other team, the people watching -- those who didn't get the advantage of seeing it in slow-motion like we did -- it looked like she took a hard hit and Kit knocked the ball clean out of her hand.  And their reactions were appropriate.  They wouldn't see the ambiguity like we do -- it happened too fast for them.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Browncoat said:

The only one who really knows whether or not the ball was dropped on purpose is Dottie, and she's not telling.  (Mostly because she's fictional.)  From the perspective of her teammates, the other team, the people watching -- those who didn't get the advantage of seeing it in slow-motion like we did -- it looked like she took a hard hit and Kit knocked the ball clean out of her hand.  And their reactions were appropriate.  They wouldn't see the ambiguity like we do -- it happened too fast for them.

They should watch in slow-mo on instant replay:)

[bijoux]

On 08. 08. 2018. at 6:47 PM, BigBeagle said:

This is my opinion.

When I think back on this movie, I hardly recall the scene at all, but I will remember the telegram scene or "There's no crying in baseball" or "If it was easy, everybody could do it" probably forever.

Or, Avoid the clap! - Jimmy Dugan

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:59 AM, bijoux said:

Or, Avoid the clap! - Jimmy Dugan

That's good advice!

[ruby24]

Tom Hanks is so iconic in this movie. To this day I think it's one of this best performances and roles ever. Not just the "there's no crying in baseball" speech but what he says to Dottie at the end, "if it was easy everyone would do it- the hard is what makes it great." I always remember that one.

[andromeda331]

22 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Tom Hanks is so iconic in this movie. To this day I think it's one of this best performances and roles ever. Not just the "there's no crying in baseball" speech but what he says to Dottie at the end, "if it was easy everyone would do it- the hard is what makes it great." I always remember that one.

It really was one of his best. When he and Dottie are giving different signals to the pitcher, and him dealing with the Western Union guy. Or when he's angry at Evelyn but trying not make her cry later. Basically all of his scenes.

[kiddo82]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It really was one of his best. When he and Dottie are giving different signals to the pitcher, and him dealing with the Western Union guy. Or when he's angry at Evelyn but trying not make her cry later. Basically all of his scenes.

The bus scene.  "WHO'S LOU!?" and "by the way, I loved you in the Wizard of Oz."

I mean, I recently saw the movie again for about the 97th time and I laughed so hard at that latter line that you would have though it was the first time I had heard it.

Edited August 14, 2018 by kiddo82

[Shannon L.]

It's a small thing, but I always liked that he comforted Betty when she got the telegram about her husband.  And, of course, he's great at praying:

"Uh, Lord, hallowed be Thy name. May our feet be swift; may our bats be mighty; may our balls... be plentiful. Lord, I'd just like to thank You for that waitress in South Bend. You know who she is - she kept calling Your name. And God, these are good girls, and they work hard. Just help them see it all the way through. Okay, that's it."

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Shannon L. said:

It's a small thing, but I always liked that he comforted Betty when she got the telegram about her husband.  And, of course, he's great at praying:

"Uh, Lord, hallowed be Thy name. May our feet be swift; may our bats be mighty; may our balls... be plentiful. Lord, I'd just like to thank You for that waitress in South Bend. You know who she is - she kept calling Your name. And God, these are good girls, and they work hard. Just help them see it all the way through. Okay, that's it."

Don't forget when the girls were praying in church and he comes in saying God knows we have a game. I don't think there was a line he said that wasn't great.

[Dee]

On 8/13/2018 at 6:22 PM, andromeda331 said:

It really was one of his best. When he and Dottie are giving different signals to the pitcher, and him dealing with the Western Union guy. Or when he's angry at Evelyn but trying not make her cry later. Basically all of his scenes.

Jimmy: "Batter! What is her name? Hey you, tall girl!"
Dottie:  "Beverly!"
Jimmy: "Beverly! Look sharp there, tall-tall....what is her name again?"
Dottie: "Beverly!"

Edited August 14, 2018 by Dee

[Giuseppe]

On 8/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, kiddo82 said:

"by the way, I loved you in the Wizard of Oz."

I mean, I recently saw the movie again for about the 97th time and I laughed so hard at that latter line that you would have though it was the first time I had heard it.

 

I have to admit, I have never gotten that line. I have not fully watched The Wizard of Oz since I was a kid--well before I saw A League of Their Own. But it's such an iconic movie that I always feel weird not knowing what Jimmy was talking about/referring to.  Can someone enlighten me?

Anyway, I first watched this movie on HBO back in the early nineties when I was about 14. I don't think I had ever felt so charmed by a movie before, especially the ending. I remember thinking it would be fun to see what Geena Davis, Rosie O'Donnell, Madonna, etc. would ACTUALLY look like in 30-40 years, and if it would come close to the actors who portrayed their older selves. Can't believe we really are almost at 30 years since this movie.

Edit: Now that I think about it, how old WERE most of the girls supposed to be when the league formed? Geena Davis was mid-30s when the movie was made, and Lori Petty about 8 years younger, but that seems a bit old to be recruited for a sports career. Were the characters supposed to be a lot younger?

Edited September 9, 2018 by Giuseppe

[scarynikki12]

Jimmy's referencing the Wicked Witch of the West, so he's calling Miss Cuthbert ugly.

[Crs97]

Margaret Hamilton in the early scenes of Wizard of Oz:

https://www.google.com/search?q=wizard+of+oz+margaret+hamilton&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=visn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1vMvD-a3dAhXH7IMKHa7CBf0Q_AUIEigC&biw=375&bih=553#imgrc=99Q-P-HBtXGcWM:

[festivus]

That line was the one thing I didn't think was funny in the movie. Jimmy was apathetic at times or cranky but that line was just straight up mean and I didn't think he was mean. I didn't like it.